Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.

I'd disagree...

I'd have said you should always vote on what's in front of you and nothing else.

badabinbadaboom

To those who voted yes.
Come down off your high horses and have a look around at whats actually going on in this country. Peoples livelihoods are being destroyed by EU regulations and agreements. Even if people could understand the treaty we still would have voted no because we are simply sick of Europe.
I read the treaty and gethered that all it was, was way to clean up the inner runnings of the EU, but I still voted NO because the EU has done nothing for me personally and I would rather this state was on its own with a GOOD government.
Look at Norway FFS
and Iceland.......Oh wait:p

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'd disagree...

I'd have said you should always vote on what's in front of you and nothing else.

You can disagree, but that's about it!

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

tedstriker

Darragh29 wrote: »

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.

No decision you make can be wrong but your decision can be made for the wrong reasons and as a result impact on everyone else.. and the whole of europe for that matter.
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Also, there are easier ways to overthrow the government. The problem is also that the opposition want a YES vote so where does that leave you. Spoil your vote if you want to make a point, write a letter to make a point, organise a rally, run for election...

imeddyhobbs

I 'm sick is people saying that we gave/give nothing to the EU,Irish fishing waters have contributed billions of €uro to this power block thru our waters,by the way,Icelands waters are the best bargaining tool for this 3rd world country to gain access to the EU,every country has to have something to offer.

Darragh29

tedstriker wrote: »

No decision you make can be wrong but your decision can be made for the wrong reasons and as a result impact on everyone else.. and the whole of europe for that matter.
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Also, there are easier ways to overthrow the government. The problem is also that the opposition want a YES vote so where does that leave you. Spoil your vote if you want to make a point, write a letter to make a point, organise a rally, run for election...

Nah, I think I'll just stick to voting no on the next occasion, I think this would be a more effective...

Even if I was generally happy with the government, I'd still be voting no because I dont accept that our democratic decision has been proerly respected on the last occasion.

skelliser

Now with added poll goodness!

anonymous_joe

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

To those who voted yes.
Come down off your high horses and have a look around at whats actually going on in this country. Peoples livelihoods are being destroyed by EU regulations and agreements. Even if people could understand the treaty we still would have voted no because we are simply sick of Europe.
I read the treaty and gethered that all it was, was way to clean up the inner runnings of the EU, but I still voted NO because the EU has done nothing for me personally and I would rather this state was on its own with a GOOD government.
Look at Norway FFS
and Iceland.......Oh wait:p

Norway has oil income. That's why they didn't join. As far as I know they'll probably join as soon as they run out of oil.

Darragh29 wrote: »

You can disagree, but that's about it!

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

I didn't vote for them, so that's my work done. :pac:

Ah well, hope the people who voted for Biffo and co are happy. ^^

imeddyhobbs

Darragh29 wrote: »

You can disagree, but that's about it!

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

People like you give the "no" campain a bad name

Vote no

humanji

This enire threat shows how little people care for this country. Voting yes or no, out of spite or apathy is disgusting. Vote as you please, we're all f*cked as long as Irelands listens to the people..

Acacia

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Completely fair and democratic to run it again with changes to allay the concerns of the cranks. Even though I hate this government I'll still vote Yes as I'd rather lose a little power to EU and be in the EU in these hard times than give FF more power or control. IMO the more laws and rules and regulations we get from EU the better as the politicans here only want rules/laws that suit them and their cronies

Hold on, wouldn't it be a better idea to elect a more capable government here than simply hand over 'a little power to the EU'?

"Ah, shure, our boyos are useless , let Europe look after us instead. "

That's not a good reason to vote 'yes', imo.

anonymous_joe

Acacia wrote: »

Hold on, wouldn't it be a better idea to elect a more capable government here than simply hand over 'a little power to the EU'?

"Ah, shure, our boyos are useless , let Europe look after us instead. "

That's not a good reason to vote 'yes', imo.

Well a whole raft of people voted FF and then decided they wanted another go.

Not sure we'd get a good government unless all the parties pooled together tbh. ^^

cooperguy

Darragh29 wrote: »

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.

Exact opposite actually. People are Overestimating the intelligence of the voter to ask them to stick to the issues at hand. Alot of people will vote no to "Stick it to the government". The stupidest move you can make. Your not screwing them your screwing yourself at the end of the day because the backlash is on the country not the government.

How is there nothing wrong with doing that?

Darragh wrote:

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

Thats generally what a general election is for, I think you'll find its much more effective and doesnt shoot yourself in the foot. Not to mention of coarse that it is an excuse the government can use to defend themselves if they dont get things done "we didnt vote yes the EU didnt help us out with funding etc. therefore not our fault"

Darragh wrote:

Even if I was generally happy with the government, I'd still be voting no because I dont accept that our democratic decision has been proerly respected on the last occasion.

If the decision was reached by an informed public who weighed up the facts of the argument then the no campaign have nothing to worry about, you can have the vote as often as you like. However if (as is more likely) people made up there mind based on a large amount of scare mongering and just plain lies then there might be a problem. And if that is the case whats wrong with actually getting information out there and then run the vote again with an informed public.

badabinbadaboom wrote:

Come down off your high horses and have a look around at whats actually going on in this country. Peoples livelihoods are being destroyed by EU regulations and agreements. Even if people could understand the treaty we still would have voted no because we are simply sick of Europe.
I read the treaty and gethered that all it was, was way to clean up the inner runnings of the EU, but I still voted NO because the EU has done nothing for me personally and I would rather this state was on its own with a GOOD government.

If you have lived in this country in the last number of years you have benifited from the EU. Quick example did you notice all those pretty signs round the country on the side of the roads saying funded by the EU??

Ireland is the posterboy for Europe. It dragged us from the shithole we were to where we are today. And yes I know there is a recession but we are still much better than where we were.

PrivateEye

5. New business opportunities for Irish companies
Through our membership of the EU many markets have been subject to liberalisation and through this process new business opportunities have been created for Irish companies.

A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty creates the potential for increased opportunities for Irish business particularly in areas subject to increasing liberalisation such as Transport, Energy and the Environment.

Libertas?
Sinn Féin?
IBEC actually.

No,Níl,Non and Listen.

IBECs submission to the NCOE last time was enough to sway a lot of people to the No camp.
I hope the trade unions develop balls before Lisbon II.

Donald-Duck

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I 'm sick is people saying that we gave/give nothing to the EU,Irish fishing waters have contributed billions of €uro to this power block thru our waters,by the way,Icelands waters are the best bargaining tool for this 3rd world country to gain access to the EU,every country has to have something to offer.

It might have given them billions, but we got tens of billions from them.

imeddyhobbs

Donald-Duck wrote: »

It might have given them billions, but we got tens of billions from them.

Its like a bank,you pay back with interest!

There is no such thing as a free lunch,some people forget about how important we(Irish)are

Lets just say we gave the 2 fingers to europe..

what are they going to do??
The WTO has different ideas,we can still sell all our goods and services abroad and any country that tries to stop that will be punished under the WTO rules!
Why do we look to Europe as the big tit that feeds us?
Do we really need the EU?

Darragh29

cooperguy wrote: »

Exact opposite actually. People are Overestimating the intelligence of the voter to ask them to stick to the issues at hand. Alot of people will vote no to "Stick it to the government". The stupidest move you can make. Your not screwing them your screwing yourself at the end of the day because the backlash is on the country not the government.

How is there nothing wrong with doing that?

What backlash??? Why is there a backlash at all??? This is the kind of nonsense situation we are in. I don't want the country I live in to be scared into making bad decisions. There is something very wrong when as a country, you cannot actually vote against something and have that decision respected. The fact that there is a "backlash", is just another valid reason for voting no.

Would we tolerate it if our government wanted to change the bail laws (as did happen a few years ago), and we didn't agree with them so then the government decided to increase tax or carry out some other action to "punish" us, or if there was any other "backlash", would be put up with this???

No, we would fu*king not, so why are we tolerating a threatened/implied backlash from the EU??? Would we tolerate our own government threatening to cut public spending if we didn't give them a particular result in a referendum???

Ask your self that...

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

What backlash??? Why is there a backlash at all??? This is the kind of nonsense situation we are in. I don't want the country I live in to be scared into making bad decisions. There is something very wrong when as a country, you cannot actually vote against something and have that decision respected. The fact that there is a "backlash", is just another valid reason for voting no.

Would we tolerate it if our government wanted to change the bail laws (as did happen a few years ago), and we didn't agree with them so then the government decided to increase tax or carry out some other action to "punish" us, or if there was any other "backlash", would be put up with this???

No, we would fu*king not, so why are we tolerating a threatened/implied backlash from the EU??? Would we tolerate our own government threatening to cut public spending if we didn't give them a particular result in a referendum???

Ask your self that...

They probably should consider it sometimes.

In fairness, the reason we're under so much pressure is because Europeans really cannot understand why we don't help. As far as they can see Ireland was an utter shíthole until it joined the EU, which helped us become a success, then we told them to fúck off.

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

They probably should consider it sometimes.

In fairness, the reason we're under so much pressure is because Europeans really cannot understand why we don't help. As far as they can see Ireland was an utter shíthole until it joined the EU, which helped us become a success, then we told them to fúck off.

I don't see this pressure, in my mind, it's just an imaginery scare tactic. We have absolutely nothing to fear from a hostile EU, because our own government are already in the process of completely f*cking up the country without needing any EU assistance.

What are these extremely dire consequences that I'm continually hearing about if we vote no again???

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

I don't see this pressure, in my mind, it's just an imaginery scare tactic. We have absolutely nothing to fear from a hostile EU, because our own government are already in the process of completely f*cking up the country without needing any EU assistance.

What are these extremely dire consequences that I'm continually hearing about if we vote no again???

Well they could always kick us out. :P

Or stop giving us money, etc.

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Well they could always kick us out. :P

Or stop giving us money, etc.

They can't "kick us out", because under Nice, this requires a unamious decision and as long as we veto our own removal from the EU, this can never happen.

We are now contributors to the EU as opposed to beneficaries so money is neither here nor there...

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

They can't "kick us out", because under Nice, this requires a unamious decision and as long as we veto our own removal from the EU, this can never happen.

We are now contributors to the EU as opposed to beneficaries so money is neither here nor there...

If our economy continues going down the swanny that'll change.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

You know what really gets me? People calling others "retarded" for voting in what they believe. Come on people, you are not really that childish are you?

If people believe in voting yes OR no, do not be abusive towards them. This is the reason we have anonomous voting. People have the right to believe in what they do, have some respect, yea?

Donald-Duck

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Its like a bank,you pay back with interest!

There is no such thing as a free lunch,some people forget about how important we(Irish)are

Lets just say we gave the 2 fingers to europe..

what are they going to do??
The WTO has different ideas,we can still sell all our goods and services abroad and any country that tries to stop that will be punished under the WTO rules!
Why do we look to Europe as the big tit that feeds us?
Do we really need the EU?

What are they going to do? Well major MNC will have no reason to stay in Ireland since it wouldn't be a foothold in Europe anymore.

Epic Tissue

humanji wrote: »

Ok people, I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but 28% of the population voted no. And a portion of that admitted to not voting on what was actually in the treaty. How is following the will of an ill-informed minority democratic? Think about it. If nobody except for 2 people actually managed to vote last time, and they voted yes because they thought it was about ice-cream, would you honestly want to honour that vote?

Why not actually read the treaty (it's honestly not that hard, I managed it FFS, and I'm thick as pig shìt!) and deciding what's best for you? What's the worst that can happen? Sure if the treaty is really that bad for everyone, it'll be a no vote again. One day out of your life isn't going to make that much of a difference.

So, because you want yes, the no-voters are ill-informed? Now I'm not saying that the majority of the people who voted no actually read the treaty but I think you should present proof if you want to debate it.

If people don't bother voting, that's their choice. But the option to vote was given to them and that is democratic.

The turnout of voters was over 50% over 50% of the people who turned out voted no. link. (yes which is 28% of the population but the way you wrote it made it sound bad)

Mark200 wrote: »

If they change the treaty and then put it up for voting again I don't see why anyone would be annoyed. The whole Libertas slogan was "get a better deal for Ireland" and then when we get the chance on voting for a 'better deal' like Libertas wanted, now the argument is going to be "oh how undemocratic"???

What the hell?

Not everyone who voted no voted that way because of "the whole Libertas slogan". I agree with you that people shouldn't be too annoyed if they change the treaty accordingly. People can evaluate the situation again.

obl wrote: »

It's nice to know that people will be voting, untaintedly, on the issue at hand...

:rolleyes:

You quoted a no-voter. Just to prove that this works both way here's another quote:

SheroN wrote: »

I will vote yes again because everyone I know who voted no seems to be a bit of a 'tard.

I wonder how the fact that we're in a recession will play into the vote this time.

imeddyhobbs

Donald-Duck wrote: »

What are they going to do? Well major MNC will have no reason to stay in Ireland since it wouldn't be a foothold in Europe anymore.

But we could still trade with our new enemys under the WTO rules?

cooperguy

Darragh29 wrote: »

...Ask your self that...

Ask yourself this. If a different member state of the EU took a decision that adversely affected Ireland would you be happy? Would you want our government to approve something to help them out the next time they needed it? Now imagine if that country made a decision that affected 26 nations.

You would do the same if you were in their shoes

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Its like a bank,you pay back with interest!

There is no such thing as a free lunch,some people forget about how important we(Irish)are

Lets just say we gave the 2 fingers to europe..

what are they going to do??
The WTO has different ideas,we can still sell all our goods and services abroad and any country that tries to stop that will be punished under the WTO rules!
Why do we look to Europe as the big tit that feeds us?
Do we really need the EU?

Its not like a bank. The EU is for mutual benifit. They dont give money so we can pay interest. They do it to build up an economy therefore making a bigger market in the country which means more trade. Win win. Thats the concept behind it.

Also the EU has numerous trade agreements that benefit us HUGELY. We are a small country we export. Without the EU we dont have those. As you say we can sell our goods but we dont benefit from the agreements making way less competitive. And of coarse all the US multinationals will be gone as there wont be a link to the EU anymore which is why they are here - an EU headquarters. That as im sure you know would be crippling. In summary yes we do need the EU!

Darragh29

Epic Tissue wrote: »

I wonder how the fact that we're in a recession will play into the vote this time.

The one effect I think it will have is it will draw out more voters. Irish citizens who have been made redundant since the recession started I imagine will be eager to express their views on an open EU labour market.

I can't see how the country being in recession can benefit the yes side in any way at all...

Darragh29

cooperguy wrote: »

Also the EU has numerous trade agreements that benefit us HUGELY. We are a small country we export. Without the EU we dont have those. As you say we can sell our goods but we dont benefit from the agreements making way less competitive. In summary yes we do need the EU!

Lately we've been exporting absolutely f*ck all, which is why we now have unemployment climbing at rates which we have not seen before.

Donald-Duck

Darragh29 wrote: »

Lately we've been exporting absolutely f*ck all, which is why we now have unemployment climbing at rates which we have not seen before.

The unemployment seems to be mainly in home based employment, not ones involving exports.