Un-pedestrianise Broad St?

fricatus

In reponse to the following posts in this thread;
1,2,3

I agree with you, there's an issue with the city centre being too quiet at night, but the solution is not to re-introduce cars.

The entire city centre (both trafficked and pedestrianised areas) is quieter in the evenings, naturally enough, so to a certain extent, you're not going to avoid this problem.

If you look at the areas that are most lively, it's those places where there are pubs and restaurants on one hand, and places like the Little Poland stretch around James's St where there are lots of young singles living.

We need people living in the centre of town, and we need to attract in the activities that bring people in in the evenings. I know we're building a super-duper campus for WIT out in Carriganore, but wouldn't it be great if WIT was in the city centre? All the evening courses would attract in all the people we need to make the place lively.

Re-opening Broad St to traffic will do nothing for it though, as long as there are no places there where people want to go in the evening. Think Parnell St. Even if Roberts Square has its problems in the evenings, it's a delight during the day or early evening (look at the carousel there at the moment for example).

Undoing all that good work would be insane.

KingLoser

EDIT:NOTE: In response to this post.

No, I have nothing to do with the taxis.

Does anyone calling me up have any idea what the town was like before the street was butchered into what it is today? There was nightclubs on O'Connell Street, all the way up to Bridge Street. The take-outs on red square were open late, and people were walking along there at all hours. They've closed it, and the clubs, pubs, and cafés have no interest in opening in the middle of a giant square, in a town of ~40k people, with no taxi access. Whatever ye think about the taxis, that's a fact of life.

Pedestrianising Broad Street cut a major artery in the centre, as is obvious just by looking at the congestion (to use your choice of word...), cars and people, around John Street area.

All these other squares were built on the base of existing squares that have been in place for centuries. It's not the businesses fault, it's woeful planning and terrible infrastructure.

I'll get to talking about the rest after work.

fricatus

KingLoser wrote: »

Does anyone calling me up have any idea what the town was like before the street was butchered into what it is today?

Yes, it was a bloody dive. I remember it in 1985, with Burgerland and the Gloss. Christ, if we go back to that, I'll emigrate.

KingLoser wrote: »

There was nightclubs on O'Connell Street, all the way up to Bridge Street.

O'Connell St has been open to traffic all along. Your argument has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

KingLoser wrote: »

...the clubs, pubs, and cafés have no interest in opening in the middle of a giant square, in a town of ~40k people, with no taxi access. Whatever ye think about the taxis, that's a fact of life.

No taxi access? There's a rank outside Dunnes, one on the Quay and another in the Apple Market. Certainly we have to plan taxi access better, but once again, re-opening Broad St to traffic is not the solution.

KingLoser wrote: »

All these other squares were built on the base of existing squares that have been in place for centuries.

Like Grafton St in Dublin? Shop St in Galway? Pedestrianised in the '80s and '90s respectively, if I remember correctly.

muffler

Hang on lads. What do you think you are doing by quoting someone in another thread, posting it here and then replying. The thread can stay open but Im not having this criss-cross quoting.

fricatus

muffler wrote: »

Hang on lads. What do you think you are doing by quoting someone in another thread, posting it here and then replying. The thread can stay open but Im not having this criss-cross quoting.

We started going off-topic in the first thread, so I created this one. I put the quotes in so as to give it some context, which is missing now since you snipped them out.

And if you look in the other thread, you'll see that I posted by accident in the wrong one, and asked for my post to be moved.

I thought creating a new thread for a new topic was the appropriate thing to do...

KingLoser

Ya, they were relevant.... and now, well... they're random.

KingLoser

fricatus wrote: »

Yes, it was a bloody dive. I remember it in 1985, with Burgerland and the Gloss. Christ, if we go back to that, I'll emigrate.

I'd argue it still is a dive, but each to their own in that respect. At least there was some life in the place.

fricatus wrote: »

O'Connell St has been open to traffic all along. Your argument has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

You missed the point here. I'm talking about the massive graveyard cutting off the O'Connell street area from the rest of the town. It's a no-mans-land now. All those empty shops will back me up on that.

fricatus wrote: »

No taxi access? There's a rank outside Dunnes, one on the Quay and another in the Apple Market. Certainly we have to plan taxi access better, but once again, re-opening Broad St to traffic is not the solution.

Convenience boi, and the lack of it. Don't ever underestimate the laziness of people. Although, it is very Waterford to just say "shur" and leave it as is.

Have the rank run from the AIB at the clock, to the AIB on Micheal street, and watch the place come to life.

fricatus wrote: »

Like Grafton St in Dublin? Shop St in Galway? Pedestrianised in the '80s and '90s respectively, if I remember correctly.

Dublin is a big city, and Shop st doesn't even compare, it's perfectly circled by normal functioning roads.

I'm all for pedestrianisation, just Broad street was a big bumbling mistake. Personally, I think Arundel Square should be peddied. By your first post you seem to think I'm talking about John Roberts Square, I'm not.. just Broad Street. The square can stay a square, just smaller, and with better access.

Sully

fricatus wrote: »

We started going off-topic in the first thread, so I created this one. I put the quotes in so as to give it some context, which is missing now since you snipped them out.

And if you look in the other thread, you'll see that I posted by accident in the wrong one, and asked for my post to be moved.

I thought creating a new thread for a new topic was the appropriate thing to do...

KingLoser wrote: »

Ya, they were relevant.... and now, well... they're random.

Okay, sorted. Iv edited out the snip in the original post and added links to the three posts you guys are reffering to. Also as per request, iv merged in another post from the other thread (also linked in the original post).

Hopefully these edits will address the concerns and make things more understandable

muffler

And just to add that while Im not happy with posts being taken from one thread and quoted directly in another thread I think the present format is ideal for both the regular contributers here and those who just fly by and may have gotten confused (either before or after snipping)

KingLoser was a step ahead of us when he added in a link to his first post above.

Cheers guys.

merlante

I can't believe anybody is arguing that pedestrianisation in Broad st. was/is a bad idea. In general Michael st. and Barronstrand st. are too narrow for serious traffic anyway.

But this not the point. Pedestrianisation makes town and city centres more pleasant and more tempting for people to shop and walk around in. I find it incredible that there have been sustained attacks against pedestrianisation from various interests over the years, despite the quality of retailer in JR square improving, and the amount of business done increasing year on year (though maybe not this year because of the recession).

The latest people to complain about it are the taxi drivers. The taxis in Waterford are a mafia with a union mentality, who have no problem breaking the law whenever it suits them by parking where they shouldn't when ranks are full. I have sympathy for the plight of taxi drivers: more and more people are losing their jobs and going into the totally unregulated taxi business. As a result, the hours are getting longer and the fares fewer. But this does NOT mean that our pedenstrianised city centre should be turned over to them, just because they are well organised, vocal and going through hard times. The real solution to the taxi problem is to restrict the numbers of taxis -- a sort of move I'm generally against -- because there are currently too many taxis for individuals to make a full time living.

The taxis already have a good rank on Peter st., right in the centre of the city, and in the apple market during the night. Any extra rank space should be granted on the fringes of the city centre and NOT on pedestrianised areas that have won urban design awards amd have made Waterford city centre an attractive place for people to be.

Another poster made the point that people need to be living in the city centre as well, to keep small businesses, in particular, going. It is heartening to see so much people traffic on O'Connell st. in the evenings these days, with Irish people and immigrants returning home from work in town. This street is as busy today as it has ever been in my lifetime, and a lot busier than it's been since the recent 'flight to the suburbs' and 'one car per adult' trends have kicked in. O'Connell st. and Little Poland are probably seeing a level of activity not seen since the 50's. The upswing in the number of people living in the city centre is a very good sign for the future. It is as good a sign for the indigenous businesses as the KRM decision is for the city centre as a whole.

BBM77

KingLoser wrote: »

There was nightclubs on O'Connell Street, all the way up to Bridge Street. The take-outs on red square were open late, and people were walking along there at all hours.

This is just not true in fairness. Nightlife in on O’Connell St died out long before Broad St and Barronstrand St was pedestrianised. Also Supermac’s was the only take out in Red Sq, there was no grouping of restaurants as you are implying.

I have to say I think that the campaign to have John Roberts Sq unpedestrianised is one of the most stupid, short sighted and self serving arguments ever to appear in Waterford. Shame on the councillors that are entertaining the suggestion. I love being able to walk around there and not having to cross roads and dodge cars. When the Newgate centre is finished the JR Sq – Michael St area will be one of the best shopping streets in the country. Doing anything now to damage this potential would be madness.

KingLoser

Ballybrickenman wrote: »

This is just not true in fairness. Nightlife in on O’Connell St died out long before Broad St and Barronstrand St was pedestrianised. Also Supermac’s was the only take out in Red Sq, there was no grouping of restaurants as you are implying.

I have to say I think that the campaign to have John Roberts Sq unpedestrianised is one of the most stupid, short sighted and self serving arguments ever to appear in Waterford. Shame on the councillors that are entertaining the suggestion. I love being able to walk around there and not having to cross roads and dodge cars. When the Newgate centre is finished the JR Sq – Michael St area will be one of the best shopping streets in the country. Doing anything now to damage this potential would be madness.

I was going to entertain what you said in the first paragraph.

Then you wrote the second one. Don't stop believin boi!

BBM77

KingLoser wrote: »

I was going to entertain what you said in the first paragraph.

Then you wrote the second one. Don't stop believin boi!

What exactly is your point here? I thought this was a discussion forum not a picture show.

KingLoser

Ballybrickenman wrote: »

What exactly is your point here? I thought this was a discussion forum not a picture show.

Relax. It's a facepalm. http://tinyurl.com/6krdrz

This is a discussion, but I'm not interested in discussing this subject with people who reason with their heart. Not just you.

muffler

We are in the season of goodwill lads. Peace be with you.

Sully

Completely agree with Ballybrickenman and others. Madness having traffic on Broad St. again - will do more harm then good imo.

muffler

Please think before you post. This is my 2nd input to this thread and it will be my last.

One post deleted and infraction given.

Cabaal

KingLoser wrote: »

Relax. It's a facepalm. http://tinyurl.com/6krdrz

This is a discussion, but I'm not interested in discussing this subject with people who reason with their heart. Not just you.

ah posting pictures as a come back to a discussion, all very grown up.

KingLoser I have to admit I think you've lost what little credibility you had to this point, nice job

I'd have to agree fully with Ballybrickenman, Sully & Others, putting cars back in this areas is incredibly short sighted, just look how other citys have used pedestrianization of area's to improve business and the shopping experience,

JohnC.

I can't see any benefit. It is easy to get to the other end of the street and the places it goes to via other streets. All it would bring is more double parking along the street and hold-ups at the clock tower.

KingLoser

Cripes, yes.

OK.

What a blinding success JR Square is. Well done all.

/bows out

Vadrefjorde

Another factor contributing to the "dead" atmosphere may be that a lot less people are going out nowadays and doing their socialising at home due to the smoking ban, recession etc..
I remember what it was like when Egans was going great there and tbh, the only traffic was taxis using the road at night. Between there and the roxy they probably accounted for most of the human presence around red square at night.
I actually think Egans/ flow motion etc.. was actually quite a big attraction to that end of town, and i don't see how reinstating traffic will replace that, there still isn't anything in the area to attract people to the area at night.

merlante

Vadrefjorde wrote: »

Another factor contributing to the "dead" atmosphere may be that a lot less people are going out nowadays and doing their socialising at home due to the smoking ban, recession etc..
I remember what it was like when Egans was going great there and tbh, the only traffic was taxis using the road at night. Between there and the roxy they probably accounted for most of the human presence around red square at night.
I actually think Egans/ flow motion etc.. was actually quite a big attraction to that end of town, and i don't see how reinstating traffic will replace that, there still isn't anything in the area to attract people to the area at night.

Do we really need that part of town busy at night is the question? The junction was never as busy years ago as it is now, JR square and O'Connell st. are quiet. Is that really a problem or a trend? To be honest, I'm happy enough with the clubs being in one place and the city centre shopping being in another.

As for the city centre as a whole being quiet in the day or night, I'm not really sure about that. I think although it could be a lot busier, there are plenty of people about most days. I guess that if the Dunmore rd. crowd came into town every so often it would be a lot busier. I suppose they along with a lot of other people will when the shopping centre is built and we get the top tier retailers that we are currently missing.

What the city centre could do with is a few late opening cafes. There is not a single one at the moment, where in the past you had, say, Global village and Luna. I guess Harlequin on Stephen st. is the closest thing we have at the moment.

fricatus

merlante wrote: »

I guess that if the Dunmore rd. crowd came into town every so often it would be a lot busier. I suppose they along with a lot of other people will when the shopping centre is built and we get the top tier retailers that we are currently missing.

That's an interesting comment. It's something I've noted to myself but not something I've ever heard expressed. I'm a Dunmore Rd resident myself (moved there a few years back) and while I like it very much, I'm under no illusions that it's "posh" these days (though of course it was in the '60s before people started moving there).

Are people from certain parts of town guilty of bypassing the city centre in favour of, say, our own retail parks, or places further afield in the likes of Dublin and Cork?

Taking the opposite view, does something need to be done to return the city centre to the people of the city (and that means all of us)?

I can't understand it myself, but I know people out my direction who say they never go into town. Why is this?

Cabaal

fricatus wrote: »

I can't understand it myself, but I know people out my direction who say they never go into town. Why is this?

High cost of parking (compared to free), find a parking space, bigger crowds, more traffic, might be a few reasons for these people

Sully

Parking is free till early January on the streets btw. (Just a Christmas thing)

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Parking is free till early January on the streets btw. (Just a Christmas thing)

Does that me I'll have to fight for the parking space outside my house?

gscully

merlante wrote: »

Does that me I'll have to fight for the parking space outside my house?

If you were from Lismore Park, you'd be used to it. Oh sorry, wrong thread

merlante

Cabaal wrote: »

High cost of parking (compared to free), find a parking space, bigger crowds, more traffic, might be a few reasons for these people

Aside from the parking, isin't that part of the buzz of the city centre: more people, more going on. There's nearly always something interesting to see and do at weekends in the city centre these days, whether it's an arts or film festival, a christmas tree or carousel, a french market or whatever.

I think maybe it's worrying that people don't feel that it's worth paying the parking charges. Or maybe the people on the outskirts aren't really 'city' people at all, because their behaviour more closely resembles a rural rather than an urban pattern: want to be on their own, car dependent, etc. I also sense a certain pride from some people who say they haven't been into the centre in a while as if they're secretly happy to boycott the place. Not sure, maybe I'm dreaming.

merlante

gscully wrote: »

If you were from Lismore Park, you'd be used to it. Oh sorry, wrong thread

Well when you live on a certain street close to the motor tax office, it's pretty much a common theme as well. And if the disc parking goes away from Christmas, then it's even worse.

Aquos76

Sully wrote: »

Parking is free till early January on the streets btw. (Just a Christmas thing)

Thats only after 1600 hrs each day

Sully

Aquos76 wrote: »

Thats only after 1600 hrs each day

Ya sorry forgot to mention that. Seems like a good idea to draw in people. Its been proposed in Dungarvan to from 3pm rather then 4 tho.