Sinn fein and the new lisbon

wylo

I voted yes in the last treaty having read as much as i could about it, and having read a chunk of the thing itself. While admittedly it was a very tough read I came to my OWN conclusion about the treaty.

Anyway I have to say well done to Sinn Fein if Ireland are given an exception to their main commissioner arguement.
Sinn Fein said we can do better, and better we'll do. I congratulate them for pressing with a No vote last time if thats the case. However if they continue with a No campaign this time despite alterations in the treaty then I'll lose any respect I had for them.

Im just wondering what do you think Sinn Feins stance be on a new treaty if one of their main arguments, "losing our commissioner" will be responded to?

murfie

Sinn fein will more than likely come up with some other reason not to support the treaty and run with it. They are the party that will forever go against the main stream view of their political opposition.

RedPlanet

An ignorant post!
Sinn Fein have a detailed argument about what changes they seek.
Just go to www.sinnfien.ie and click on "Majority View - Minority Report"

WooPeeA

Ireland will lose commissioner under current treaty anyway. Treaty of Lisbon won't make any change in that issue. Hope people won't get lied that easily this time.

murfie

RedPlanet wrote: »

An ignorant post!
Sinn Fein have a detailed argument about what changes they seek.
Just go to www.sinnfien.ie and click on "Majority View - Minority Report"

Ignorant, Ha you wait and see which one of our posts are ignorant.

Patricide

To be honest, i voted No last time and il vote no again regardless of what ammendments are made to lisbon. Simple reason, the people of Ireland voted and the majority of people made there opinion clear on the matter. Its not democracy to keep on voting untill the E.U. gets the answer they want.

PurpleFistMixer

Patricide wrote: »

To be honest, i voted No last time and il vote no again regardless of what ammendments are made to lisbon. Simple reason, the people of Ireland voted and the majority of people made there opinion clear on the matter. Its not democracy to keep on voting untill the E.U. gets the answer they want.

So even if they completely changed the treaty you'd still vote no, because you once voted no to an essentially different treaty that had the same name?

Patricide

Theres a difference between a few ammendments and completely changing the treaty.

the_god_swan

Patricide wrote: »

To be honest, i voted No last time and il vote no again regardless of what ammendments are made to lisbon. Simple reason, the people of Ireland voted and the majority of people made there opinion clear on the matter. Its not democracy to keep on voting untill the E.U. gets the answer they want.

That’s the most stupid argument ive ever heard, and its one that rampant on boards.ie at the moment.

What you’re really saying is you want to piss off the current Irish government because you’re not happy with how they have dealt with the latest home decisions. So what you should really do is not vote them back in, in the next general election.

All you are doing with your above plan is jeopardising Irelands position in Europe as it is, future investment, jobs, financing from the EU. Say good bye to it all if the European Union moves on without us... And they will, because lets face it, Ireland voice in the world is basically nothing as it is.

Patricide

the_god_swan wrote: »

That’s the most stupid argument ive ever heard, and its one that rampant on boards.ie at the moment.

What you’re really saying is you want to piss off the current Irish government because you’re not happy with how they have dealt with the latest home decisions. So what you should really do is not vote them back in, in the next general election.

All you are doing with your above plan is jeopardising Irelands position in Europe as it is, future investment, jobs, financing from the EU. Say good bye to it all if the European Union moves on without us... And they will, because lets face it, Ireland voice in the world is basically nothing as it is.

Well I could just as easily make the argument that what your doing is giving in to europes demands, letting them blackmail you in a way. Its the whole accept the treaty or wel move on without you mentality of the european union that gets on my nerves. True we would be nowhere without them now but still that doesnt give them the right to force a decision on us that the majority of the country has already voted against, which in my opinion is exactly what there doing.

Face it were going to revote again and again untill the treaty goes through anyway but I wont be a part of it. Its not how democracy is meant to work in my opinion.

hellboy99

Personally I think our governments time and manpower would be better off spent trying to sort out the current economic affairs here, not wasting it on another Lisbon. We voted "No", and that should of been the end of it.

ben bedlam

wylo wrote: »

I voted yes in the last treaty having read as much as i could about it, and having read a chunk of the thing itself. While admittedly it was a very tough read I came to my OWN conclusion about the treaty.

Anyway I have to say well done to Sinn Fein if Ireland are given an exception to their main commissioner arguement.
Sinn Fein said we can do better, and better we'll do. I congratulate them for pressing with a No vote last time if thats the case. However if they continue with a No campaign this time despite alterations in the treaty then I'll lose any respect I had for them.

Im just wondering what do you think Sinn Feins stance be on a new treaty if one of their main arguments, "losing our commissioner" will be responded to?

You claim there that there are "alterations in the treaty". No there are not. The Lisbon treaty is a binding legal document. If even one comma in the treaty is changed, it becomes a new legal document and must be re-ratified by all member states again.

The EU deal is that they will grant these alterations to Ireland in a new treaty ONLY IF Ireland vote yes to Lisbon. Lisbon itself remains unchanged and by voting yes, we would vote yes to enforce all clauses in the original document, all of the clauses that have made people vote no in Lisbon 1. Lisbon 2 IS IDENTICAL to Lisbon 1

RedPlanet

murfie wrote: »

Sinn fein will more than likely come up with some other reason not to support the treaty and run with it. They are the party that will forever go against the main stream view of their political opposition.

The reason it's an ignorant post murfie, is that: while i'm confident SF will come out against the Lisbon II, it's not that they are just inventing some other reason; rather it's that they've stated what they'd prefer to see for an EU teaty. So their terms for supporting or not supporing, are already in the public domain.

carveone

the_god_swan wrote: »

That’s the most stupid argument ive ever heard, and its one that rampant on boards.ie at the moment.

Ah yeah. The "no should be final" argument. Which is not what even Sinn Fein said at the time - they said "we want some amendments/assurances". Besides, it's a woman's perogative to change her mind right? Man's too

Most of the No voters on boards.ie in June were saying either they'd vote no to be safe (what harm could it do) or they'd vote no cause they disliked the way other countries were run.

All you are doing with your above plan is jeopardising Irelands position in Europe as it is, future investment, jobs, financing from the EU. Say good bye to it all if the European Union moves on without us... And they will, because lets face it, Ireland voice in the world is basically nothing as it is.

Yes. They will. However, I believe the current situation will concentrate people's minds more. I'd seriously consider bailing out of the country if we voted No again. It's not as if I have a job anymore anyway...

wylo

ben bedlam wrote: »

You claim there that there are "alterations in the treaty". No there are not. The Lisbon treaty is a binding legal document. If even one comma in the treaty is changed, it becomes a new legal document and must be re-ratified by all member states again.

The EU deal is that they will grant these alterations to Ireland in a new treaty ONLY IF Ireland vote yes to Lisbon. Lisbon itself remains unchanged and by voting yes, we would vote yes to enforce all clauses in the original document, all of the clauses that have made people vote no in Lisbon 1. Lisbon 2 IS IDENTICAL to Lisbon 1

Ok fair enough, today I had understood it as the opposite,i.e. Ireland will hold another referendum ONLY IF there are changes made to the treaty, and yes that would mean every country having to reratify.
Ps that Sinnfein.ie link is down, how convenient:D edit:sorry was typing it wrong:o

sink

I think the main concern with Sinn Fein is that they haven't a hope in hell of getting 99% of what the want. Some of their proposals fly directly in the face of key goals of other members which they will not concede ever! They seem to fail to realise that the EU is a club of 27 and their us vs them attitude is awfully simplistic.

WooPeeA

Patricide wrote: »

To be honest, i voted No last time and il vote no again regardless of what ammendments are made to lisbon. Simple reason, the people of Ireland voted and the majority of people made there opinion clear on the matter. Its not democracy to keep on voting untill the E.U. gets the answer they want.

And again, you won't vote on the Treaty, but on country's inside problem.

It's not the EU who demanded another referendum. EU asked Cowen for some solution, in reply he asked for more time. Then, after about 6 months of parliament debates, he decided that best solution will be new and honest referendum.

RedPlanet

wylo wrote: »

Ok fair enough, today I had understood it as the opposite,i.e. Ireland will hold another referendum ONLY IF there are changes made to the treaty, and yes that would mean every country having to reratify.
Ps that Sinnfein.ie link is down, how convenient:D edit:sorry was typing it wrong:o

http://www.sinnfein.ie/
The link works for me.

BOHSBOHS

ben bedlam is right

THERE WONT BE ANY CHANGES to the treaty

we might get a few worthless "declarations" made in relation to it
like granting ireland a "commissioner with special responsiblity for seating alignment" or some crap (our politicians like those kinda titles :-) )

ShooterSF

wylo wrote: »

Ok fair enough, today I had understood it as the opposite,i.e. Ireland will hold another referendum ONLY IF there are changes made to the treaty, and yes that would mean every country having to reratify.
Ps that Sinnfein.ie link is down, how convenient:D edit:sorry was typing it wrong:o

The problem there is that if the other countries have to ratify, the conservatives may be in power in the UK and have promised a referendum if the oportunity arises. By keeping it the same and tacking on their promises in a new treaty they can avoid this as The UK has already ratified the treaty as is and couldnt repeal it as it modifies others.
Why do you think the EU presidency demanded other countries continued ratifying a treaty which renegotiated would have to by ratified again?

techdiver

Let me preface this with a comment that I am not nor ever have been associated with any political party.

Having Sinn Féin opposed to the Lisbon Treaty is one reason for voting yes in my opinion.

They have yet to prove their worth as a main stream political entity since their transition to main stream politics.

Their economical policies are laughable and they still surround themselves with an "unsavoury" element in Irish life. The party lacks the serious leaderships and direction required in modern politics.

I actually hope that as time goes on, they will prove me wrong as we desperately need more alternatives in Irish politics, and a strong alternative opposition party would be good for the country.

I think it's time for them to move on and put new faces forward and put the old out to pasture, Mary Lou included!

Bobeagleburger

techdiver wrote: »

Let me preface this with a comment that I am not nor ever have been associated with any political party.

Having Sinn Féin opposed to the Lisbon Treaty is one reason for voting yes in my opinion.

They have yet to prove their worth as a main stream political entity since their transition to main stream politics.

Their economical policies are laughable and they still surround themselves with an "unsavoury" element in Irish life. The party lacks the serious leaderships and direction required in modern politics.

I actually hope that as time goes on, they will prove me wrong as we desperately need more alternatives in Irish politics, and a strong alternative opposition party would be good for the country.

I think it's time for them to move on and put new faces forward and put the old out to pasture, Mary Lou included!

:rolleyes:

hellboy99

techdiver wrote: »

Having Sinn Féin opposed to the Lisbon Treaty is one reason for voting yes in my opinion.

To base any vote on that reason is a waste of a vote whether it be yes or no :rolleyes:

carveone

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

like granting ireland a "commissioner with special responsiblity for seating alignment" or some crap (our politicians like those kinda titles :-) )

I was just thinking that yesterday. I mean, what else are they going to do with 27 commissioners anyway? They'll have to be at least 10 which have titles like the one you aptly suggested. I'd say that after all this mess, Ireland will have the Commissioner for dealing with whiny countries on the periphery. Or Commissioner for bog roll softness.

Not that Ireland has a commissioner anyway of course (to reiterate that point for the millionth time), there just happens to be one that's Irish. Can you imagine if the Commissioner for Social Affairs in '73, Patrick Hillery (Irish of course), hadn't told O'Leary and the FG-Labour Government to go and shove it over equal pay (for women). We'd probably still have the Marriage Bar... That's the EU telling us. Guess that's why he was recalled in 76.

Patricide

It may be biffo whos implementing the second refferendum but obviously he wouldnt do this without feeling the pressure from the E.U.

That is that if the E.U. werent pressuring him to get Ireland as a whole to step in line with what the E.U. want then there would be no second refferendum.

The first time i voted on lisbon it wasnt just to spite the european union it was because I genuinely disagree with certain aspects of it. I still disagree with certain aspects of it so I will be voting no again although this time it will be not just because of this factor but I believe its going against the idea of democracy in my opinion. The whole thing reminds me of the corruption you would expect to see in some 3rd world countries. Vote till you get the "right" result.

The Corinthian

Patricide wrote: »

Theres a difference between a few ammendments and completely changing the treaty.

And everyone who voted no wanted the treaty completely changed?

RedPlanet wrote: »

The reason it's an ignorant post murfie, is that: while i'm confident SF will come out against the Lisbon II, it's not that they are just inventing some other reason; rather it's that they've stated what they'd prefer to see for an EU teaty. So their terms for supporting or not supporing, are already in the public domain.

So was Austria-Hungary's ultimatum to Serbia in 1914.

The thing about conditions is that it's very easy to put enough of them in so as to guarantee that they'll be rejected, but you'll be able to hold your head up high and say that you sought a compromise and it was rejected.

Couldn't actually find what the conditions were that Sinn Fein are seeking on their site, btw. Only thing I found was that, even before any announcement has been made on concessions, that they will oppose it. What a surprise.

Patricide

Nope, but im not speaking for everyone. Im speaking about me and my vote.

RedPlanet

The Corinthian wrote: »

Couldn't actually find what the conditions were that Sinn Fein are seeking on their site, btw. Only thing I found was that, even before any announcement has been made on concessions, that they will oppose it. What a surprise.

Sorry, i got that wrong earlier.
Go to http://www.no2lisbon.ie/ and click on the link for "A better deal for Ireland and the EU" for SF's detailed submission as to an acceptable EU treaty.

Scofflaw

The Corinthian wrote: »

And everyone who voted no wanted the treaty completely changed?

So was Austria-Hungary's ultimatum to Serbia in 1914.

The thing about conditions is that it's very easy to put enough of them in so as to guarantee that they'll be rejected, but you'll be able to hold your head up high and say that you sought a compromise and it was rejected.

Couldn't actually find what the conditions were that Sinn Fein are seeking on their site, btw. Only thing I found was that, even before any announcement has been made on concessions, that they will oppose it. What a surprise.

Well, on balance, Sinn Fein's opposition to Lisbon II, whatever the package of concessions, was as inevitable as a second referendum. The only reason Sinn Fein don't actually say they're opposed to the EU is because they don't feel it would be a popular message, but it's not possible for a party that believes in undiluted Irish sovereignty to support Irish engagement in the EU. Definitely not at the political level - and based on the evidence of SF's historical EU treaty campaigns, not at any level.

Still, I prefer that principled opposition to the apparent political opportunism shown by Libertas.

cordially,
Scofflaw

brianthebard

murfie wrote: »

Sinn fein will more than likely come up with some other reason not to support the treaty and run with it. They are the party that will forever go against the main stream view of their political opposition.

That's not the case any more I think, SF have been trying to build themselves up as a serious alternative for a while now. They didn't do well in the last general election, but if they play this next referendum right and are on the winning side twice in a row they will be considered more seriously come the next election (although not by me).

Eurosceptic2008

Their response will probably be that the Treaty is not being changed and that the assurances from the European Council are not of themselves legally-binding. Essentially we are being asked to trust the word of Cowen and the other EU govts - many of whom called their trustworthiness into question by breaking promises to hold referenda on the EU Constitution/Lisbon in their respective countries e.g. Poland, the UK, Denmark. And even then, the changes wouldn't come into effect unless the Croatian people vote for their Accession treaty which is the document the changes will be included. So effectively, what we are being offered is a promise thrice-removed from Cowen. Not exactly reassuring.