VRT OMSP RIPOFF

mumhaabu

I was browsing through the net as I normally do and with sterling so cheap I gave a look at UK Cars. I noticed that UK Prices are now even cheaper than their normal self and with sterling cheap it is a win win for Irish buyers.

So I saw a car that looked good and cheap a Diesel BMW 320 2004 Automatic, for £5,999 on UK Autotrader or around €6,700, I then wandered over ros.ie to check the dreaded VRT and then I had a corony. :eek:

The VRT is 28% fair enough says I but then I saw the OMSP (open market selling price) which is a figure (AKA in car circles as "the bible") someone in the SIMI extracts from their anus and says is the gospel and with a few Brown Envelopes to various members of Fianna Fail this is accepted as the Open Market Selling Price, however the Car in question is maxed out at between €18k to €20k on Carzone (always a ripoff).

However the OMSP by the Revenue Commissioners is €23,272 about €5,000 overvalued by Irish recessionary figures (most of the Carzone sellers would throw off another 1 or 2K to sell also now the way the market is). It also overvalues the car by over €16,000 compared to its UK OMSP. However the real sickener is how the VRT costs €6,516 which is only €184 less than what the car is worth this represents an almost 100% taxation regime on an imported car despite both the ROI and UK being part of the EU and common "free" market. Plus if you went to pay this gargantuan tax you may even get raped for "extras" such as leather etc. representing in excess of 100% taxation.

Why have the revenue not dropped the OMSP to realistic levels? I intend to vote no to lisbon again over this manner of taxation and vote against Fianna Fail in next Junes elections. Stalin or Chairman Mao wouldn't have a bad a regime as this and it is a thundering disgrace that such taxation contrary to EU principles is allowed.

Eric Cartman

this is why i registered my uk vehicle as a commercial, i bought it for 8.2k and the goverment thinks its worth 22, madness i tell you

jayok

mumhaabu wrote: »

I I intend to vote no to lisbon again over this manner of taxation and vote against Fianna Fail in next Junes elections. Stalin or Chairman Mao wouldn't have a bad a regime as this and it is a thundering disgrace that such taxation contrary to EU principles is allowed.

[OT] Not to bring this OT. But voting No to Lisbon won't do a single thing for VRT. Voting Yes for it may at a later stage involves its removal as we move closer to Europe. You are contradicting yourself as you vote against Lisbon but talk of European principles. Everyone is entitled to their vote and opinion but at least make the reason for any opinion founded in fact not hersey[/OT]

On topic, the ROS update the VRT calculator with the new year, give it 4-5 more weeks for 09 and the prices should adjust accordingly.

L1011

The fact that VRT isn't actually against any EU rules and we've got an apparent (hahaha) reassurance that tax harmonisation won't happen means voting Yes will have the same impact as voting No on VRT - absolutely none.

Guy:Incognito

MYOB wrote: »

The fact that VRT isn't actually against any EU rules and we've got an apparent (hahaha) reassurance that tax harmonisation won't happen means voting Yes will have the same impact as voting No on VRT - absolutely none.

Yeah but "we iz makin a staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Rabble rabble rabble"

Sure remember how we showed them the first time by standing up to VRT and having a no vote. No all the talk in Leinster house is of the plans to abolish vrt...............


Btw, all the major parties are for Lisbon so unless people are planning on voting SF (or worse, Libertas) into power , any no vote is against FG and Lab as much as FF.

Ronanom

jayok wrote: »

[OT] Not to bring this OT. But voting No to Lisbon won't do a single thing for VRT. Voting Yes for it may at a later stage involves its removal as we move closer to Europe. You are contradicting yourself as you vote against Lisbon but talk of European principles. Everyone is entitled to their vote and opinion but at least make the reason for any opinion founded in fact not hersey[/OT]

On topic, the ROS update the VRT calculator with the new year, give it 4-5 more weeks for 09 and the prices should adjust accordingly.

I've found that while the vrt on cars will come down with the new year the OP is right in saying that the OMSP on most cars is way out and in no way representative of current car prices.

x in the city

FF and the government have been anally raping us for years.

No to Lisbon and Yes to FG is a step in the right direction.

Guy:Incognito

x in the city wrote: »

No to Lisbon and Yes to FG is a step in the right direction.

How is voting in FG a step in the direction to getting rid of the VRT when VRT is just a reworking of a tax they brought in in the first place?
Plus they might be led be the most boring man alive but he's not an idiot. He knows theres no voter friendly way to raise the money in other ways that VRT otherwise brings in.

x in the city

If Mr Goodlooking Cowen wants another lisbon vote then it must be bad news, since when did FF do anything logical or for the benefit of the consumer?

You dont hear FG ramping on about lisbon ffs.

so if FF want yes to lisbon then I hope most people vote NO. (again...:rolleyes:)

Guy:Incognito

x in the city wrote: »

You dont hear FG ramping on about lisbon ffs.

Funny, I heard Endy Kenny on the radio yesterday talking about a date for the next Lisbon vote. He suggested next OCT. (he was campaigning for Lisbon btw)

pred racer

Ronanom wrote: »

I've found that while the vrt on cars will come down with the new year the OP is right in saying that the OMSP on most cars is way out and in no way representative of current car prices.

Anyone want to bet that there will be 2 books in the new year?? one for the garages and one for the customs and excise to keep the omsp on imported vehicles really high to discourage people:rolleyes:

Tipsy Mac

Voting no to Lisbon II as a motorist because of VRT brings attention from the EU to the injustices we face as motorists in this country and can only benefit drivers.

And if taxes are required from somewhere else so be it, the Mafia don't apply for EU grants because their extortionate practices are shut down due to illegalities.

Swinging Looney

The OMSP used for VRT calculation is set by SIMI. That means that they have a perfect way to protect their own interests. And the OMSP is nothing more than that. A fictional value that makes an attempt to dissuade people from importing cars and hurting the monopoly that the Irish Motor Industry enjoys.

The worst I have seen was a Jaguar XJ which sells for about 40-45k here. It was valued on the ROS website at 73k giving a VRT bill of well over 20k. The car would cost about 27k euro to get in the UK. It was blatantly obvious that the OMSP was selected to ensure that the Irish cars remain cheaper.

smash

5k over valued... that's nothing. have a look at my post here!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58183716&postcount=8

peasant

Lisbon - motors forum


--does not compute --:eek:

smash

Swinging Looney wrote: »

The OMSP used for VRT calculation is set by SIMI. That means that they have a perfect way to protect their own interests. And the OMSP is nothing more than that. A fictional value that makes an attempt to dissuade people from importing cars and hurting the monopoly that the Irish Motor Industry enjoys.

I'd like to know your source on this... as i believe it's rubbish - SIMI don't have that much power and not all motor dealers are associated with them.

The distributors have nothing to do with SIMI and if they thought that SIMI was screwing them over and loosing them sales by over inflating VRT then they'd be very quick to tell their dealer networks to cancel their SIMI membership to put them out of business!

towel401

MYOB wrote: »

The fact that VRT isn't actually against any EU rules and we've got an apparent (hahaha) reassurance that tax harmonisation won't happen means voting Yes will have the same impact as voting No on VRT - absolutely none.

its always good to have a dig at the gubberment

Ta me anseo

steve06 wrote: »

The distributors have nothing to do with SIMI and if they thought that SIMI was screwing them over and loosing them sales by over inflating VRT then they'd be very quick to tell their dealer networks to cancel their SIMI membership to put them out of business!

I suppose to be technically correct - SIMI advise Revenue of the RRP and suggested OMSP. Revenue set the OMSP based on this information. There used to be something on the SIMI website about this but at the moment you can not get beyond their homepage. I'll see what else I can find.

I don't quite understand your quote above. Why would any distributor be screwed over by SIMI or by VRT or inflated OMSP? Is it not the complete opposite? If it is ridiculously expensive for me to buy a car abroad and VRT it because of inflated OMSP's I will have no choice but to buy my car in Ireland. The distributors would be delighted surely! Perhaps I have misunderstood you.........

smash

Well put it this way, if a BMW costs €20k in the UK and in Ireland it costs €40k - then even at 30% OMSP the €20k UK car would come in at €32k - that's 8k less than it is to buy here - so people will buy abroad. Now if they raise VRT to be 50% then the car will come in at the 40k - but the same car in Ireland will also have had 50% added so it wont be 40k any more, so it's still cheaper to buy abroad.... This means Irish dealers loose sales still. The ONLY fair way to get a level playing field is to get rid of VRT totally, but then all the used car dealers will go out of business because they'll be stuck with cars worth half of what they paid for them. Catch 22.

Ta me anseo

steve06 wrote: »

Well put it this way, if a BMW costs €20k in the UK and in Ireland it costs €40k - then even at 30% OMSP the €20k UK car would come in at €32k - that's 8k less than it is to buy here - so people will buy abroad. Now if they raise VRT to be 50% then the car will come in at the 40k - but the same car in Ireland will also have had 50% added so it wont be 40k any more, so it's still cheaper to buy abroad.... This means Irish dealers loose sales still. The ONLY fair way to get a level playing field is to get rid of VRT totally, but then all the used car dealers will go out of business because they'll be stuck with cars worth half of what they paid for them. Catch 22.

Sorry lad, I was talking about second hand cars specifically. What you are talking about above only applies to new cars. The OMSP for a new car will be close enough to the list price you'll see in a showroom. But if you try to import a new car or nearly new car you will be charged VAT aswell so they have that option already covered. OMSP's are deliberately high for second hand imports to discourage the habit. In that respect, unrealistic OMSP's are assisting car dealers in Ireland to remain in business with high prices by making imports more expensive.

Sqaull20

Still bargains around with the new system if you go for low emissions.

2005 MAZDA 3 €4400 + €1900 vrt.

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/ni/cars_popup.jsp?searchform=&modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&photo=1&state=block&sort=&hassearched=Y&make=MAZDA&min_pr=75&source=0&model=MAZDA3&max_pr=&miles=1500&agerange=&mileage=&postcode=m52ty&variant=&bodyid=0&trim=&fuelid=2&colour=&transmissionid=0&keywords=&ukcarsearch_full.x=52&ukcarsearch_full.y=5&start=6&distance=185&adcategory=CARS&channel=CARS&id=200850325203354

You'd be lucky to get one for under 9k here.

Car-dealer

wanted to bring in Mazda RX-8 04 low miles car €7500 vrt close to €7500

wanted to bring in a Merk CLK 2001 high miles e €4500 - vrt wanted €4500

em we are at the point whereby the cost of the car in the UK is the cost of the VRT on some cars - my mind seems to think this is the most obvious rip off anywhere in the western world!

kuro_man

VRT itself is not illegal under EU law, but the way it is implemented does break EU rules.

1. EU states cannot advantage local business in favour of businesses in other EU states. Over-estimating OMSP (or not updating frequently enough) does exactly this.

2. There should be price transparency between EU states. Having to pay VRT in advance, and then appeal, means you cannot compare final prices before you make the purchase.

3. Taxes paid in the EU country of origin should be taking into account. When you get you VRT bill, they should deduct any registration fees paid in the country of origin. This does not happen at present.

I have contacted the Consumer Affairs office and made these points and they replied favourably, saying it warranted investigation The specifically mentioned the point about price transparency, which is part of their remit.

I suggest everyone does the same.
http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/

Car-dealer

well done - its great to see someone doing something about it - I actually wrote to the EU myself and got a response; basically they told me that the Irish Government are basically using VRT as a Registration Fee - not a Tax and thus get around the EU Tax funny. Funnily enough those cheeky animals still term the thing Vehicle Registration TAX!

The whole thing drives me mad - but yes Im going to look into this consumer thing you mentioned - I think the way this VRT will be eventually defeated is through some minor legislation that shows the flaw in the VRT system, I think a direct attack wont work on the whole issue of it being illegal, as thats been done and failed, the double tax and pricing scam is the way forward.

TommyT

We recently looked at a Jaguar XJ Diesel. £15k gets you a good one in the UK, you can buy one for €45k here in Ireland, yet those idiots on the VRT website must have consulted the fairies for the OMSP. They value it at €77k, thats €77000 for a car that can be bought in the UK for just £15000.

cashmni1

TommyT wrote: »

We recently looked at a Jaguar XJ Diesel. £15k gets you a good one in the UK, you can buy one for €45k here in Ireland, yet those idiots on the VRT website must have consulted the fairies for the OMSP. They value it at €77k, thats €77000 for a car that can be bought in the UK for just £15000.

That example is just madness and there should be some way of reporting that as theft!!

€77k, wtf? - should be published in the red tops and embarrass them back into a reasonable OMSP table. In these times of a ressesion, could make good reading on Sundays.

Guy:Incognito

Have any of you actually taken this up properly with the VRO as opposed to lots of "rabble rablle, joe duffy, rabble rabble , the papers, rabble rabble , consumer affairs" . They have had people on the radio a few times over the last year or so saying they welcome input re: OMSP of cars.

The way to go abou tit though is NOT to ring up your local VRO screaming of the injustices of the world and how everythign is great everywhere else except here. Put together a decent vit of info about why you think the OMSP of a particular car should be X instead fo Y , backed up with evidence and you will be listened to.

smash

TommyT wrote: »

We recently looked at a Jaguar XJ Diesel. £15k gets you a good one in the UK, you can buy one for €45k here in Ireland, yet those idiots on the VRT website must have consulted the fairies for the OMSP. They value it at €77k, thats €77000 for a car that can be bought in the UK for just £15000.

Much like my previous post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58183716&postcount=8

The VRO don't have a clue what they're at!

pipsqueak

I mentioned vrt to the chairman of the fianna fail party last year (Mr Kirk) and you know what he said to me?
" Sure if we drop vrt we will have to raise something else"
As long as vrt is bringing in close to 1bn a year they will NEVER get rid of it
btw
I wanted to bring in an 05 530d m sport last month, uk price is 12k sterling so 14200 euro, ferry 96 sterling 113 euro, ryanair to leeds 40 euro diesel for home 40 euro total car price is 14000,
The vrt was 14500!! they can f**k right off with their 14500 plus 1300 road tax!
its disgusting thats what it is

Guy:Incognito

pipsqueak wrote: »

" Sure if we drop vrt we will have to raise something else"

Surely you knew that was the answer before you asked? Any money lost for the exchequer has to be replaced from somewhere or else budgets for various things reduced. Its very basic economics.