Final Fantasy XIII and versusXIII - new info

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well you can back track in the older games but really there's no point or reward to doing it. Usually the side quests usually open up in the last few hours when you are preparing for the final battle. A card game or a gold saucer type mini game place really isn't a mark of non-linearity.

Gold Saucer (just saying Gold Sacer hardly does it justic tbh), Fort Condor, Wutai (a whole continent), enemy skills, Chocobo breeding/catching, finding hidden characters, Gonzaga (totally optional), Defeating the Zolom, the Weapons, the Black Forrest (completely optional).

All things being said, and taking 7 as an example, it isn't very non-linear compared to Oblivion or Fallout but it is still a hell of a lot more choice than most popular games offer. You could probably rinse and repeat all the above points in FF8 and 9 too.

joe123

What I love about final fantasy is how you could go on off and level up and go to a certain area where you would get mauled but level up and then go back and be able to clear the place, or finding out about areas of a world where there is an ultimate sword or shop. I loved going to different towns and they would have this brilliant weapon but youd have to earn alot more to be able to afford it, go back and get it. Just random stuff where it actually feels like a world. From what ive read so far this doesnt sound at all like that.

What the hell is buying weapons at save points with no shops in the game?

GothPunk

noodler wrote: »

Uncharted would have been in trouble but for the story, graphics, voice acting, soundtrack and relatively tight gun play but yeah.

That's exactly my point. These people go on as if the amazing soundtrack, graphics and battle system of FFXIII don't exist. Quality of the story and voice acting remains to be seen (Not sure if that trailer counts as it's all 'dramah' taken out of context). It's not that I don't understand where these people are coming from - Final Fantasy games are very popular so obviously there are different things about the games that appeal to some people. I think FFXIII will appeal to a lot of people who only have a casual interest in JRPGs as it seems they've gotten rid of some of things about a JRPG that can be frustrating (like not knowing where to go next in the story, getting lost in a dungeon etc). I'm not saying that I might have preferred FFXIII to have a more open world, but I'll leave that for the post-game analysis. As yet all we've played is the demo and that left me really anticipating the full release.

noodler wrote: »

I'm not too sure about this myself. I mean FF games also give you the the illusion that you are a spikey haired affeminite bloke with a masive sword, I still most FF games give you ample opportunity to F*** off and do a variety of other stuff while the main quest is going on. Compared to a helluve a lot of other games I think this IS non-linearity to be frank.

Fallout 3 or Oblivion might be on the other end of the spectrum.

Yeah I guess I'm being very pedantic - by open world I do mean stuff like Fallout 3, although Demon's Souls is a good compromise as you can choose to progress to each different world as you choose - perhaps impossible in story driven games like Final Fantasy.

What I mean by illusion of freedom is like sure, you can visit Kalm and Mt. Corel whenever you like when you get the buggy/airship etc in FFVII, but the NPCs all say the same thing and everything is as it was the first time you got there. Very few times does something different happen when you make an impromptu visit to a town. Older JRPGs are worse, like there are so many artificial barriers that just happen to disappear once you've finished all the quests in an area. I don't quite understand why people cry foul about things that aren't necessarily good things, and only wish for them to remain because they are 'tradition'.

Retr0gamer

A lot of the negative press seems to be from people that like FFXII and found it to be a step in the right direction. I get the feeling these people never liked JRPGs and preferred that FFXII became more like an MMO or WRPG that they enjoyed and don't like the return to traditional FF gameplay.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

A lot of the negative press seems to be from people that like FFXII and found it to be a step in the right direction. I get the feeling these people never liked JRPGs and preferred that FFXII became more like an MMO or WRPG that they enjoyed and don't like the return to traditional FF gameplay.

FF12 was still a JRPG no matter what you thought of the battle system. The ATB was still there you could still control all your players manually.

Anyway, FF12 was reasonably open ended so perhaps that is what they are complaining about rather than the return to the more traditional turn based system.

Retr0gamer

ATB was there but it was completely automated. However it's the same automation that defines WRPGs and MMO's. Western RPGs started out just like the old school Dragon Quest games but later the dice rolls were automated to make it real time. Just check out any MMO or Bioware game. Basically instead of choosing attacks the game automatically does them for you. Considering the automation of the battle system to make it real time and how FFVII does this in my opinion it's closer to a WRPG than a JRPG which is usually defined by turn based combat.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

ATB was there but it was completely automated. However it's the same automation that defines WRPGs and MMO's. Western RPGs started out just like the old school Dragon Quest games but later the dice rolls were automated to make it real time. Just check out any MMO or Bioware game. Basically instead of choosing attacks the game automatically does them for you. Considering the automation of the battle system to make it real time and how FFVII does this in my opinion it's closer to a WRPG than a JRPG which is usually defined by turn based combat.

Just don't use the fecking gambits then!

EDIT: Didn't Persona 3, which you loved, have the same automated system for allies except you couldn't turn it off.

Retr0gamer

Well you could argue that but you'd be wrong. Persona is a turn based game and you have control over the main character who is the most important since he dictates the behaviour of other characters and also has the widest array of options available.

I'll try and set out what defines each.

WRPG

- Real time battle system
- movement allowed during the battle
- battle takes place on the same playfield as all other interactions. Hard one to define but the same systems for battle and every other interaction take place on the same field with the same system. It's hard to define but chrono trigger wouldn't be a WRPG because it's battles initiate a turn based system.

WRPGs usually give the player a lot more freedom as well.

JRPGs are usually linear, turn based, have seperate systems for interaction and fighting and characters are stationary or in something like grandia the AI makes a bee line for the targeted enemy.

There's also exceptions to these rules as always.

You can play FFXII out as a turn based game without the gambits but the game is built around the gambit system and wouldn't work turn based, battles which are already too long imo would take longer and it would become really boring considering enemies take far more hits in FFXII than other FF games.

For me there's no RPG closer to FFXII than either an MMO like FFXI or WoW or as a single player game KotoR or other bioware game. I've seen people describe it as Final Fantasy XII Offline and I think it pretty much sums it up.

noodler

Well thanks for teh definitions but they aren't necessary for the discussion as the point is your main criticism of FF12 was gambits and I never even used them for important fights since my own control would be superior and more flexible.

Its still turn based. The gambits being used on crap enemies as a time saver is actually a good thing once you have gotten to a stage where there is no real reward for beating them.

Anyway, FF12's combat is still turn based. If anything it is just gives the illusion of a non-turn based battle.


EDIT: What would I be wrong about exactly? You hate FF12 for the automatic combat system (which was entirely optional and certainly less optimal than doing it yourself) but you loved Persona 3 which had a similar system of non-control. I never tried to argue Persona was a WRPG if thats what you have assumed.

Aurongroove

It's looking as though I'm going to have alot more fun with versus then with XIII

though XIII, if it truly is an emalgamation of the best aspects of the system from X and XII (so mostly X then lol) that won't be bad.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

EDIT: What would I be wrong about exactly? You hate FF12 for the automatic combat system (which was entirely optional and certainly less optimal than doing it yourself) but you loved Persona 3 which had a similar system of non-control. I never tried to argue Persona was a WRPG if thats what you have assumed.

I hate FFXII because it was boring. Once you had gambits set up there was no strategy to battles except for boss battles. Most of that is down to how much the game focused on combat and wasn't helped by how bad the combat was. Battles against normal enemies left you running around in circles building up MP just to rub salt into your wounds almost all the dungeon areas all felt copy and pasted from a standard set of dungeon parts.

GothPunk

Aurongroove wrote: »

It's looking as though I'm going to have alot more fun with versus then with XIII

VersusXIII does look very interesting to me, and whilst it is likely to be an ARPG (which I ususally don't like as much as turn based RPGs) supposedly it does have a world map, towns and shops. Not sure how 'open-world' it will really be in the final product, but they have shown a screenshot of Noctis on a world map. VersusXIII also interests me as it's setting is similar to modern day Europe - a departure for a Final Fantasy game which are usually set in historical or futuristic settings.

Retr0gamer

FFXIII versus doesn't interest me due to one word: Nomura. It's going to be a zipper fest.

GothPunk

Retr0gamer wrote: »

FFXIII versus doesn't interest me due to one word: Nomura. It's going to be a zipper fest.

You are a fan of Kingdom Hearts though, aren't you? I've read your praise for that game before. Nomura fills the same role in VersusXIII as he did/does for Kingdom Hearts.

I think the clothes in VersusXIII are quite snazzy. The fact they're actually being made and sold prevents them from being 100% zippers and belts. :pac:

Retr0gamer

Just why?



Ok I'll admit I really liked Kingdom Hearts. Decent story (very surprising) and up there with devil may cry and it's ilk for difficulty. Wasn't a fan of KH2 although admitedly I didn't give it much of a chance, maybe 4hrs which is isn't very far into the game at all and want to get back to it. I think what put me off Nomura is Advent Children. If Nomura oversee's the project and only really inputs art (which he can be good at if he lays of the zippers. Give us more belts, Lulu was by far your best design!) and stays away from the story then it could be a very good game. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for my fears to be unfounded.

GothPunk

Retr0gamer wrote: »

>Snip<

Ok I'll admit I really liked Kingdom Hearts. Decent story (very surprising) and up there with devil may cry and it's ilk for difficulty. Wasn't a fan of KH2 although admitedly I didn't give it much of a chance, maybe 4hrs which is isn't very far into the game at all and want to get back to it. I think what put me off Nomura is Advent Children. If Nomura oversee's the project and only really inputs art (which he can be good at if he lays of the zippers. Give us more belts, Lulu was by far your best design!) and stays away from the story then it could be a very good game. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for my fears to be unfounded.

I'd never seen that picture before, that's awesome!

I do like Advent Children, but I realise that I could be in the minority there so I can understand your fears about the game. Like I said, Nomura has the same role for VersusXIII as he did for Kingdom Hearts, which means he came up with the 'base story', is the director and character designer. Square have pitched VersusXIII as the 'darkest' Final Fantasy - but with very little to go on that means nothing. The trailer makes the story look like an homage to Romeo and Juliet which could work if done well. I'm more worried about what the battle system will be like - action RPGs can be very hit and miss for me.

joe123

From what im reading on FF13....

There are no shops,no open world to explore,very linear and you upgrade your weapons at save points....what the ****? This is lining up to be a major disapointment. Final fantasy 9 is one of my favourite games of all time. I loved FF10 and FF12 was brilliant aswel bar the terrible story.

GothPunk

joe123 wrote: »

From what im reading on FF13....

There are no shops,no open world to explore,very linear and you upgrade your weapons at save points....what the ****? This is lining up to be a major disapointment. Final fantasy 9 is one of my favourite games of all time. I loved FF10 and FF12 was brilliant aswel bar the terrible story.

Can I ask you what your favourite thing about a Final Fantasy game is? I think you might be jumping the gun a bit saying it's lining up to be a major disappointment - couldn't there be a story, memorable characters, a battle system, gorgeous cutscenes and boss battles in there somewhere?

Mr. K

joe123 wrote: »

There are no shops,no open world to explore,very linear and you upgrade your weapons at save points....what the ****?

I'm sure there'll be more to explore after the early stages of the game. X was really linear too, for the most part. I'd prefer if there were traditional shops though.

joe123

GothPunk wrote: »

Can I ask you what your favourite thing about a Final Fantasy game is? I think you might be jumping the gun a bit saying it's lining up to be a major disappointment - couldn't there be a story, memorable characters, a battle system, gorgeous cutscenes and boss battles in there somewhere?

Il refer you to this which I posted a day or two ago...

What I love about final fantasy is how you could go on off and level up and go to a certain area where you would get mauled but level up and then go back and be able to clear the place, or finding out about areas of a world where there is an ultimate sword or shop. I loved going to different towns and they would have this brilliant weapon but youd have to earn alot more to be able to afford it, go back and get it. Just random stuff where it actually feels like a world. From what ive read so far this doesnt sound at all like that.

What the hell is buying weapons at save points with no shops in the game?

Now im not saying it will be a major disapointment but its lining up that way so far from what ive read. Yes I love the turn based fighting and I love the strategy involved in that....BUT with a Final fantasy game I want to be immersed in the world. A simple thing of Having no shops or towns you can visit already takes out a HUGE part of that.

Sure cutscenes look nice but thats not what made past iterations of the game brilliant imo.

GothPunk

joe123 wrote: »

Now im not saying it will be a major disapointment but its lining up that way so far from what ive read. Yes I love the turn based fighting and I love the strategy involved in that....BUT with a Final fantasy game I want to be immersed in the world. A simple thing of Having no shops or towns you can visit already takes out a HUGE part of that.

Sure cutscenes look nice but thats not what made past iterations of the game brilliant imo.

I see your point, don't get me wrong. I do see the appeal of things like shops and I do like open world games. The thing is - is it really that bad for games to change and mix things up? Or to remove them entirely?

For most gamers, do shops really add that much to immersion in the game world? Don't they come far down the list of things that draw you in about a game, like believable characters and strong and coherent world design? Are shops really that HUGE a part of the game for you? In FFXIII you have a shop at a save point, exactly like in Crisis Core (which means that you unlock shops when you find certain key items), there will still be weapons that won't be able to afford. There are ultimate weapons on the game, some of which you must craft with rare materials and others you get from missions later on in the game etc.

I would have thought that for a Final Fantasy game to be a 'major disappointment', it would have to have a terrible battle system; to be too easy; to have boring, annoying, unbelievable characters; to have a lacklustre, boring, convoluted storyline; to have terrible glithes and game breaking bugs; to be too short. I don't think FFXIII is any of those things from what I gather.

I realise that progress for progresses sake is a bad thing, but part of why I enjoy the Final Fantasy series is that they're constantly reinventing the games - be it the battle system, overall focus of the story, mini games or the style of the game world. With FFXIII they've chosen to remove some traditional (antiquated?) game elements for the purposes of the flow of the story. The game is linear (like FFX) and has shops at save points for a reason. In terms of the story of the games, it wouldn't make sense for the characters to be backtracking to some town in the backarse of nowhere to see if they can afford some sword. The game developers are trying to tell a story in a particular way and have structured the game in such a way as to enable them to better control the pacing of the story.

I liken this to the removal of random battles from many JRPGs. Random battles are an antiquated facet of game design that existed due to limitations of hardware at the time. They existed for so long that they became a tradition of JRPGs, so even though they are a bad thing, people still strive to cling to them because it's how they grew up playing the games. One would think people would want to embrace change and improvement in a genre that has been accused recently of showing lack of evolution.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I hate FFXII because it was boring. Once you had gambits set up there was no strategy to battles except for boss battles. Most of that is down to how much the game focused on combat and wasn't helped by how bad the combat was. Battles against normal enemies left you running around in circles building up MP just to rub salt into your wounds almost all the dungeon areas all felt copy and pasted from a standard set of dungeon parts.

You could have just used attack? Such strange reasoning, in any other game you would have to use an ether or sleep/save point to get your Mp back but FF12 offered an additional way and you are bitching about it when you didn't have to use it and could have just got your MP back the traditional ways.

For for sheer number of tough bosses and epic fights FF12 is easily the strongest FF so far (defo since 6).

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Just why?



Ok I'll admit I really liked Kingdom Hearts. Decent story (very surprising) and up there with devil may cry and it's ilk for difficulty. Wasn't a fan of KH2 although admitedly I didn't give it much of a chance, maybe 4hrs which is isn't very far into the game at all and want to get back to it.

You only went 4 hours into KH2? I could have sworn you said you finished it. It is too easy compared to 1, I would urge anybody playing it to us ethe hard difficulty setting. It is less annoying and clunky when exploring though, has better characters, settings etc. Its more epic in every way bar difficulty for me.

joe123

Gametrailers have this preview up from last week...

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/import-preview-final-fantasy/60558

Cant believe there are no villages/towns.

tommy666

joe123 wrote: »

Cant believe there are no villages/towns.

what really? no towns or villages, im pre ordering ff13 on littlewoods this week hopoe its good ima huge ff fan and oh if any1 has a working ff8 ill swap for ff7 as i bought 8 recently again and disc 3 dont work so i want it badly lol

Aurongroove

that video looks amazing, I can see how the powering up system is inspired by FFX

Mr. K

http://kotaku.com/5452431/retailer-leaks-final-fantasy-xiii-collectors-edition-contents

Details for a possible CE. It sounds pretty good.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

You could have just used attack? Such strange reasoning, in any other game you would have to use an ether or sleep/save point to get your Mp back but FF12 offered an additional way and you are bitching about it when you didn't have to use it and could have just got your MP back the traditional ways.

I had to heal, that's what took up all of my MP basically. Also stocking up on ethers wasn't possible since money was quite scare in that game, I usually wouldn't have the money for new equipment let alone a rake of ethers.

carbonkid

Mr. K wrote: »

http://kotaku.com/5452431/retailer-leaks-final-fantasy-xiii-collectors-edition-contents

Details for a possible CE. It sounds pretty good.

I had a strong feeling there was going to be a CE with artbooks and postcards. I think we'll be seeing this with every FF release from now on.

Mr. K

carbonkid wrote: »

I had a strong feeling there was going to be a CE with artbooks and postcards. I think we'll be seeing this with every FF release from now on.

I agree. It seems like Squenix were testing it out with the CEs for the PSP games, now they're taking it a step further. I hope it isn't an online exclusive though, I wanna get the CE and play the game on the release day!

carbonkid

If pre-booked online then it should be posted out to you before the release date.

Square are testing the final fantasy market alot these days with collectors editions and cheap compilations running off the back of popular titles. The final fantasy vii compilation is a major marketing exercise.