Junior Diplomat/Third Secretary

Glinda

I have a close relative who went in as Third Secretary (has moved up the ranks a little since). Something to bear in mind is the lack of stability - my relative's spouse has had to sacrifice their career completely for the sake of following their other half around the world, taking on bits of temporary jobs where they can get them (or sitting at home doing nothing for years at a time - no kids yet). It is glamorous in certain respects, but you really will have to relocate to a different country (or to/from Dublin) every three years or so, and this will go on forever, there is no 'settled' position at the end of it.

I think this is why it is hard on marriages/partnerships - you can never settle down in one place unless you resign. Your kids will have to move schools/friends every three years or so and you can be sent anywhere. OK for a few years, but I'd imagine it gets old after a few years.

TheCruiser

I'm a bit puzzled as to why they didn't make the entry requirements more specialist - relevant degree/masters, etc (like for the AO Competition).

Surely it would mean that people like sarkozy with directly-applicable training and skills would have a better chance of getting to interview AND it would make it cheaper and easier for them to whittle the applicants down?

Or is the really depressing answer that they think specialist degrees add no value to a potential recruit's profile? :-/

sarkozy

It's because of the history of our civil service being a generalist civil service - it goes with the territory. Other European civil services have gone down the specialisation route in certain quarters, but there remains in any bureaucracy a need to be flexible, and this means ensuring the skills available are transferable across departments/divisions. Perhaps there's a balance to be struck here, and some efforts have been made. It's also frowned upon in terms of career progression, and many don't wish to specialise. Being a generalist is its own skill set.

But the consequences of not having in-house specialists are clear. The Department of Finance did not have any in-house economists, banking experts, etc. in order to conduct high quality analysis and briefings independent of banks before the crisis. This was a decision that was made. Had they been there, we may not be in the crippling debt crisis we're in now. This is, as I can see it, the reason for the recent specialist AO recruitments.

I have a close relative who went in as Third Secretary (has moved up the ranks a little since). Something to bear in mind is the lack of stability - my relative's spouse has had to sacrifice their career completely for the sake of following their other half around the world, taking on bits of temporary jobs where they can get them (or sitting at home doing nothing for years at a time - no kids yet). It is glamorous in certain respects, but you really will have to relocate to a different country (or to/from Dublin) every three years or so, and this will go on forever, there is no 'settled' position at the end of it.

I think this is why it is hard on marriages/partnerships - you can never settle down in one place unless you resign. Your kids will have to move schools/friends every three years or so and you can be sent anywhere. OK for a few years, but I'd imagine it gets old after a few years.

This is well worth considering. I left my partner behind for those two years, meeting up occasionally for a week or two every three or four months. It was really tough. I saw around me many casualties of the diplomat/development aid circuit - break-ups, affairs, alcoholism, bizarre marriages, difficult teenage children. I spoke to many diplomats whose older children were in boarding school or, at least, saw very little of their parents. Younger ones were with their parents, but every few years would end up in an international school of varying quality. And on top of that is the very bizarre world of the diplomatic ex-pat bubble. It's interesting for a while, but it's vacuous and strange, full of lonely people pining for home, distracting themselves with things they'd never normally do, all the time feeling like their life at home is moving on without them and every year it slips further and further away.

Think about it.

JohnMearsheimer

TheCruiser wrote: »

I'm a bit puzzled as to why they didn't make the entry requirements more specialist - relevant degree/masters, etc (like for the AO Competition).

Surely it would mean that people like sarkozy with directly-applicable training and skills would have a better chance of getting to interview AND it would make it cheaper and easier for them to whittle the applicants down?

Or is the really depressing answer that they think specialist degrees add any value to a potential recruit's profile? :-/

The stage 1 aptitude test will just be a mass culling of numbers, no matter what you studied, to make things more manageable for the Public Appointments Service. Before PAS hired out halls around the country and people turned up and sat the exams. Now I think it's all online testing so PAS have probably eliminated a nice chunk of the cost of the recruitment process.

I think the specialisms were brought in at AO level because you had a lot of senior civil servants (who would have started out at AO level), especially in departments like Finance, who had no academic background relating to the jobs they were doing. The beginnings/warning signs of the financial crisis really caught these kinds of civil servants out.

As it currently stands with the 3rd Sec competition, an engineering graduate can out perform a politics, IR, development, peace studies graduate in a maths/reading exam and move forward in the selection process. As sarkozy said, maybe there's a balance to be struck here.

hopefullegal

Anyone have a rough idea of career progression, i.e. approximately how long from 3rd Sec to 1st Sec to Counsellor etc? Is it definitely three years in Ireland at the beginning?

athtrasna

delricyo wrote: »

I got through to the second round the last time in 2008. I remember having to summarise an article about Brazil. I actually did ok on that. It was the group exercise that I didnt pass on ....

The trick to the group task is in reading all the info and working it out for yourself. Did it twice, like that didn't get through once and did the second. First time we didn't get the task done, second time we finished it with time to spare. There's no harm in being quiet for a few minutes and then in taking a lead in the task, be proactive not reactive.

TheCruiser

How did you prepare for the Stage One tests athtrasna?

athtrasna

I didn't do anything to prepare at all, not until I got to interview stage which happened on my second time applying. Got through stage 1 twice, but did much better second time. I got the feedback from the first time and used that, as I've already posted in this thread, the final summary section is something I really improved on second time.

james987

Just saw a tweet regarding this from public jobs

Thanks to all who applied for Junior Diplomat, approx 1700 applications received. Expect to hear by Fri, 25 Oct regarding the online test.

https://twitter.com/Publicjobs_ie

ezra_pound

Wow. That means 1 in 42.5 odds. Nice one.

TheCruiser

A lot less than the 5,000 I expected! Good news...

sarkozy

That's good news. I got in on a 1-in-30 chance the last time. We shall see.

StupidLikeAFox

Heres a parliamentary question which gives a breakdown of of the diplomatic staff around the world, might be of interest to people who are involved here:

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-10-01a.276

salmon1

I see there sending us the test on thursday

The_Conductor

salmon1 wrote: »

I see there sending us the test on thursday

Same day as for the AO formal test........ I guess I'm in for a busyThursday.......

Hennybug

Did everyone who applied get an email about the test? I can only assume so since i only realised with 30 mins to go to the deadline that it was open and threw in a half hearted application

The_Conductor

Hennybug wrote: »

Did everyone who applied get an email about the test? I can only assume so since i only realised with 30 mins to go to the deadline that it was open and threw in a half hearted application

Yes- all you've sent in so far is the application. You haven't done the verbal reasoning, numerical ability or the job simulation tests yet. If you've applied to do the AO- you'll have a good idea of what stage 1 entails.

salmon1

Hennybug wrote: »

Did everyone who applied get an email about the test? I can only assume so since i only realised with 30 mins to go to the deadline that it was open and threw in a half hearted application

I didnt get email, i got a message when i signed into the public jobs website under my messages so try there.

The_Conductor

salmon1 wrote: »

I didnt get email, i got a message when i signed into the public jobs website under my messages so try there.

Normally you'd get an e-mail telling you to log onto the Publicjobs.ie website and to check your messages..........

salmon1

The_Conductor wrote: »

Normally you'd get an e-mail telling you to log onto the Publicjobs.ie website and to check your messages..........

Ha ya i just got it there,best of luck thursday with all your tests

saltyjack silverblade

Got offered the test but i didn't get an email either. Does the test have to be done at a specific time? Anyone any details on it?

ezra_pound

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yes- all you've sent in so far is the application. You haven't done the verbal reasoning, numerical ability or the job simulation tests yet. If you've applied to do the AO- you'll have a good idea of what stage 1 entails.

There won't be any job simulation or numerical reasoning.

Did you not read the memo? Lol

ezra_pound

ezra_pound wrote: »

There won't be any job simulation or numerical reasoning.

Did you not read the memo? Lol

To clarify.

The tests are abstract reasoning and verbal reasoning.

TheCruiser

ezra_pound wrote: »

To clarify.

The tests are abstract reasoning and verbal reasoning.

Actually, it looks like there is no numerical reasoning. It's verbal and abstract reasoning. Details here:

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/advice/test/prepare.htm

ezra_pound

TheCruiser wrote: »

Actually, it looks like there is no numerical reasoning. It's verbal and abstract reasoning. Details here:

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/advice/test/prepare.htm

Yes. I suggest you brush up on your verbal reasoning. ACTUALLY.

TheCruiser

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yes. I suggest you brush up on your verbal reasoning. ACTUALLY.

Woops, quoted the wrong text - APOLOGIES. :-)

ezra_pound

TheCruiser wrote: »

Actually, it looks like there is no numerical reasoning. It's verbal and abstract reasoning. Details here:

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/advice/test/prepare.htm

Yes. I suggest you brush up on your verbal reasoning. ACTUALLY.

Rock of Gibraltar

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

Got offered the test but i didn't get an email either. Does the test have to be done at a specific time? Anyone any details on it?

Yep, from the information booklet:

"• You will be able to take these tests at any time between 11am on Thursday 31st October 2013 and 3pm on Monday 4th November 2013. Tests should be completed in one sitting; therefore you are advised to set aside approximately 90 minutes to take the tests (this also includes time for instructions and working through example questions). Once 3pm on 4th November, 2013 has passed, you will not be able to commence the test."

saltyjack silverblade

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

Yep, from the information booklet:

"• You will be able to take these tests at any time between 11am on Thursday 31st October 2013 and 3pm on Monday 4th November 2013. Tests should be completed in one sitting; therefore you are advised to set aside approximately 90 minutes to take the tests (this also includes time for instructions and working through example questions). Once 3pm on 4th November, 2013 has passed, you will not be able to commence the test."

Thanks man. I may find a time the house mates are not around. I am useless at these tests. Not looking forward to it.

salmon1

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

Thanks man. I may find a time the house mates are not around. I am useless at these tests. Not looking forward to it.

yeh same as,im normally useless at them but going to try do bit of work over next few days to prepare,im delighted theres no numerical questions tho

saltyjack silverblade

salmon1 wrote: »

yeh same as,im normally useless at them but going to try do bit of work over next few days to prepare,im delighted theres no numerical questions tho

I'm not! love the numerical end of these tests. The verbal reasoning annoys me. I am going to do this Thursday morning to get it done and over with. It is the only time the housemates aren't here and I don't want to be thinking about it all day Friday or over the weekend.

saltyjack silverblade

Is it safe to assume that everyone who applies sits these tests? I know it is stage 1 but does that mean stage 1 of those selected and so on, or is it stage 1 and this is how they start whittling the numbers down?

delricyo

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

Is it safe to assume that everyone who applies sits these tests? I know it is stage 1 but does that mean stage 1 of those selected and so on, or is it stage 1 and this is how they start whittling the numbers down?

Its safe to assume that all who applied have been invited to these tests. Given that they got 1700 applications - that would not have been enough time to do any screening.
Who knows how many will get through to the next stage. Couple of hundred perhaps ??

salmon1

Any one know why they seem to have got rid of the numerical test?

The_Conductor

delricyo wrote: »

Its safe to assume that all who applied have been invited to these tests. Given that they got 1700 applications - that would not have been enough time to do any screening.
Who knows how many will get through to the next stage. Couple of hundred perhaps ??

Doubt it tbh- I'd imagine maybe 120-130 after a cull of the CVs/Application forms. The work skills / simulation part will probably nuke more people than the verbal and abstract reasoning part.

ezra_pound

The_Conductor wrote: »

Doubt it tbh- I'd imagine maybe 120-130 after a cull of the CVs/Application forms. The work skills / simulation part will probably nuke more people than the verbal and abstract reasoning part.

The only people they could cull pre stage one are non Irish citizens or people without degrees. I'd seriously doubt that anything near as many as ten percent were so unsuitable. Why would they bother filling out the form?

Also I'd imagine that stage one will be the largest cull. Why would they use an out sourced low cost exam as a low level barrier culling small amounts of applicants and then use a time consuming method to cull many? That doesn't make sense.

The_Conductor

ezra_pound wrote: »

The only people they could cull pre stage one are non Irish citizens or people without degrees. I'd seriously doubt that anything near as many as ten percent were so unsuitable. Why would they bother filling out the form?

You'd be very surprised how many people apply for positions that they aren't qualified to do.........

However- what I meant to say- was I imagined 120-130 would remain after the tests and other disqualifying mechanisms- I phrased it badly though.

If its anything similar to the AO- they'll have a cutoff from the tests- of which they will call the top (god only knows how many) to the interview stage.

saltyjack silverblade

Everyone set for tomorrow? Going to do it in the afternoon I think. Then enjoy the weekend for myself!

TrinnerWinner

I just checked the booklet and there is no mention of the test window of which you all speak and I have no other email about this. No doubt I am missing something somewhere. Can someone provide a link to the info saying there are a number of days within which to complete the tests? It would be a life saver not to have to do it tomorrow for various reasons! Thanks

The_Conductor

TrinnerWinner wrote: »

I just checked the booklet and there is no mention of the test window of which you all speak and I have no other email about this. No doubt I am missing something somewhere. Can someone provide a link to the info saying there are a number of days within which to complete the tests? It would be a life saver not to have to do it tomorrow for various reasons! Thanks

I think it said you had until 4PM on Monday to complete it- and you'd be e-mailed a link to the test tomorrow. (Please correct me someone if I've picked that up wrong).

TrinnerWinner

The_Conductor wrote: »

I think it said you had until 4PM on Monday to complete it- and you'd be e-mailed a link to the test tomorrow. (Please correct me someone if I've picked that up wrong).

The booklet was really vague I thought. From memory it just gave the week during which the first assessment would take place. And the 'mail' I received had almost no detail! It would be great if anyone else had a link to what you say or even any evidence to back it up!

TrinnerWinner

Sorry Conductor - just found it in the test advice centre - talk about a labyrinthine way of providing information! Thanks!:D

salmon1

Best of luck to everyone doing the tests,going to do mine now

sureitsgrand

Let us know how you get on!

Best of luck

salmon1

its wasnt to bad,a few tricky bits that make ya question yourself if you got it right but went better then i thought

sureitsgrand

Did you go for speed or accuracy?

I mean obviously you wanted to be as accurate as possible! But did you linger on questions and double and triple check them before you moved on. Or did you give it the once over and move on?

I'm unsure as to whether to use up all the time allowed or try and go for a quicker pace...

salmon1

sureitsgrand wrote: »

Did you go for speed or accuracy?

I mean obviously you wanted to be as accurate as possible! But did you linger on questions and double and triple check them before you moved on. Or did you give it the once over and move on?

I'm unsure as to whether to use up all the time allowed or try and go for a quicker pace...

I mixed it up a bit,for a few questions i nearly ran out of time so had to rush a few answers but for others i had a few seconds to spare,don't worry its not too bad at all just relax and you'll be fine

saltyjack silverblade

I hate verbal reasoning tests with a complete passion but this wasn't too bad. I focused on giving each question an equal amount of time before answering. For the abstract, if I still didn't now the answer I just guessed. If you find yourself running out of time my suggestion would be to just guess the answer.
I think I was a lot more stressed in my head about this exam than I needed to be. It was fine and not overly complicated. Glad it is out of the way now! I wonder if Junior Diplomat is an acceptable Halloween costume?

The_Conductor

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

I wonder if Junior Diplomat is an acceptable Halloween costume?

A-la a vampire costume- or a zombie costume

IS_a_Class

I thought both were simple compared to other such tests I've had to take, verbal reasoning was a piece of piss, and the abstract wasn't so bad. With 1700 people applying, i would have thought they would have a more difficult test. Later in the day I did an aptitude test for IBM and it was astoundingly difficult in comparison.