Junior Diplomat/Third Secretary

Dubbug

This is a job for someone who can afford the paltry salary.

The_Conductor

Dubbug wrote: »

This is a job for someone who can afford the paltry salary.

True- but if you're posted abroad (after your 3 years here) its probably tax free?

sureitsgrand

Dubbug wrote: »

This is a job for someone who can afford the paltry salary.

It's an awful salary, no doubt about it. Especially as it is such a highly pressurised job where a lot of sacrifices have to be made.....It's also a good 6 grand less than the last intake started on. Sign of the times I suppose.

However, as I have limited 'real' responsibilities and am not tied down, I'm hoping the crap money actually works in my favour - in that a lot of good candidates might have decided against it for that reason!

The_Conductor

sureitsgrand wrote: »

It's an awful salary, no doubt about it. Especially as it is such a highly pressurised job where a lot of sacrifices have to be made.....It's also a good 6 grand less than the last intake started on. Sign of the times I suppose.

However, as I have limited 'real' responsibilities and am not tied down, I'm hoping the crap money actually works in my favour - in that a lot of good candidates might have decided against it for that reason!

I'm guessing a lot of potential candidates haven't even checked out what the salary scale is, to be honest with you. There is a perception out there- sure, its the civil service, the money must be good- nope, it isn't........

saltyjack silverblade

Very curious as to what the salary is now......

TheCruiser

saltyjack silverblade wrote: »

Very curious as to what the salary is now......

It's 28,900 if memory serves correctly. Allowances kick in once you're posted abroad but even long term, this is not a career in which you make a lot of money.

saltyjack silverblade

What! Kind of shocked about that. Thought the salary would be in the 30s at least. I know in this economy etc I shouldn't say it, but I am seriously reconsidering this now.

The_Conductor

TheCruiser wrote: »

It's 28,900 if memory serves correctly. Allowances kick in once you're posted abroad but even long term, this is not a career in which you make a lot of money.

Its a 10 point salary scale, commencing @ 29,992 and finishing after LSIs (2) at 52,465 (16 years later).

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether the standard AO scale also applies to 3rd Secretaries or not- the union representing both grades (the PSEU) believes the scales to be the same.

Link here: http://www.pseu.ie/html/payrates.html

StupidLikeAFox

I was of the opinion that there are promotion prospects here, and assumed you could jump onto a different scale - how likely is it that you will stay on the same salary scale for 10 years?

TheCruiser

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I was of the opinion that there are promotion prospects here, and assumed you could jump onto a different scale - how likely is it that you will stay on the same salary scale for 10 years?

You're looking at 6 years minimum before you can compete for promotion. As I understand it there have been hardly any promotions to First Secretary for the last few years.

Riskymove

TheCruiser wrote: »

You're looking at 6 years minimum before you can compete for promotion.

?

anyone out of probation can compete...ok then liklihood of getting promoted might be less the more inexperienced you are...but you can compete

The_Conductor

Riskymove wrote: »

?

anyone out of probation can compete...ok then liklihood of getting promoted might be less the more inexperienced you are...but you can compete

You wouldn't have your 3 PMDS certs?

ezra_pound

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its a 10 point salary scale, commencing @ 29,992 and finishing after LSIs (2) at 52,465 (16 years later).

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether the standard AO scale also applies to 3rd Secretaries or not- the union representing both grades (the PSEU) believes the scales to be the same.

Link here: http://www.pseu.ie/html/payrates.html

The AO and Junior Dip scales are identical. The scales are also 10% higher for anyone who was a civil servant before 2010 and who has not broken service at time of appointment so the scale I'm looking at is 10% higher than the one mentioned. In fairness it starts off low but increases quickly (c. 8% per annum) so it' not bad. Also if you're abroad you get tax free living, a rental allowance and other perks (plus possibly rental income from your ppr at home while renting in cheaper country (fair assumption for first assignment)).

ezra_pound

Riskymove wrote: »

?

anyone out of probation can compete...ok then liklihood of getting promoted might be less the more inexperienced you are...but you can compete

For internal promotion, a civil servant should be in their grade for two years. Traditionally the probationary period was also two years however more recently it is more usually one year. Therefore I suspect that probation will be for one year, followed by a second year where the emplyee is not eligible for internal promotion. I don't know how many promotions there will be in the short term, however the fact that 40 junior dips are needed is a positive indicator that there will be vacancies to be filled with expected retirements etc.

Edit: I just checked it out and now ALL new entrant probationary periods are for one year so it's definitely one year provation followed by one year ineligible for promotion.

The_Conductor

Plus it would also be subject to multiple PMDS certs- and a rolling sick leave record? The fact that its a rolling record is tough- if you're out sick for a protracted period of time- its only cleared after 3 or 4 years.

I think I have to have a gawk at codpearsanra- haven't been there in a while.

ezra_pound

The_Conductor wrote: »

Plus it would also be subject to multiple PMDS certs

What do you mean?

Do you mean that you could be disqualified for being one of the 0.1% of civil servants not getting a high enough pmds grade to be eligible for promotion? Yes, being one of the notorious 30 (out of 30,000) is not something I'd be too worried about even if you get the job!

ezra_pound

In fairness I find it a bit odd that prospective civil servants are concerned about the Dickensian Sick Leave regime. It's three months every four years full paid certified sick leave.

TheCruiser

So, formally you're eligible for promotion once you exit probation but does anyone know any third sec who has been promoted after the first year or two? By that time, you wouldn't have even started your first overseas posting. As I understood it, you're expected to start with a stint at home (2-3 years), your first posting abroad (3-4 years) and only then are you looking at being seriously considered for promotion.

That said, 40 new appointments, a heap of retirements, and a large cohort of older 3rd and 1st secs impatient for promotion: it's a lot of change, who knows what that will mean for career trajectories...

ezra_pound

TheCruiser wrote: »

So, formally you're eligible for promotion once you exit probation but does anyone know any third sec who has been promoted after the first year or two? By that time, you wouldn't have even started your first overseas posting. As I understood it, you're expected to start with a stint at home (2-3 years), your first posting abroad (3-4 years) and only then are you looking at being seriously considered for promotion.

That said, 40 new appointments, a heap of retirements, and a large cohort of older 3rd and 1st secs impatient for promotion: it's a lot of change, who knows what that will mean for career trajectories...

Hard to say but just to clarify, you cannot be promoted for a further year after promotion.

JUDE2013

Just did the tests now. Abstract went well (I think; you can't really know). I could have paced the verbal a little better, but was happy with it overall.

Just wondering, was anyone else a little taken aback by the personal information requested in the form to be filled out prior to starting the tests? This was my first time applying for a CS job and doing these tests, so it's probably the norm, but I really wasn't expecting to be asked about my cultural identity, religious beliefs and sexuality.

ezra_pound

Both tests were pretty intense in terms of timing. If you had more time they'd he easy but under that time constraint I found it quite tough.

TheCruiser

ezra_pound wrote: »

Both tests were pretty intense in terms of timing. If you had more time they'd he easy but under that time constraint I found it quite tough.

Is it about 30 - 50 questions per section?

LeopoldBoom

TheCruiser wrote: »

Is it about 30 - 50 questions per section?

8 rounds x 4 questions per round.

d93c2inhxfok4y

How long does this take to do?

Also, is it better to do it using a mouse or a laptop trackpad (if it matters at all...)?

JUDE2013

Gianna Ripe Tablespoon wrote: »

How long does this take to do?

Also, is it better to do it using a mouse or a laptop trackpad (if it matters at all...)?

I think that it was 16 minutes for the abstract and 24 for the verbal.

As far as mouse and trackpad go, I'd just stick with whatever you're used to. All you're doing is clicking the answer, then 'next'.

SpaceTime

JUDE2013 wrote: »

Just did the tests now. Abstract went well (I think; you can't really know). I could have paced the verbal a little better, but was happy with it overall.

Just wondering, was anyone else a little taken aback by the personal information requested in the form to be filled out prior to starting the tests? This was my first time applying for a CS job and doing these tests, so it's probably the norm, but I really wasn't expecting to be asked about my cultural identity, religious beliefs and sexuality.

That is surprising. It's common in the UK for state bodies, but I've never seen it here before.

Was that test outsourced to the UK by any chance?

There have been disasters with it too like this one for example which resulted in a NHS Trust's staff's religious beliefs and sexual orientations being published online : http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/06/nhs-trust-fined-data-security

Personally, I will not provide that kind of information to anyone, let alone a recruiter. I point blank refused to when going for UK public sector jobs in the past.

JUDE2013

SpaceTime wrote: »

That is surprising. It's common in the UK for state bodies, but I've never seen it here before.

Was that test outsourced to the UK by any chance?

There have been disasters with it too like this one for example which resulted in a NHS Trust's staff's religious beliefs and sexual orientations being published online : http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/06/nhs-trust-fined-data-security

Personally, I will not provide that kind of information to anyone, let alone a recruiter. I point blank refused to when going for UK public sector jobs in the past.

The tests were carried out by Saville Consulting, which according to their website is an 'international' business. If so, it could be that they request this information to make available to employers who practice positive discrimination, although asking these questions in an job application really does make me uncomfortable. You do have the option of refusing to answer (which I did).

I'm not aware of any overt positive discrimination in the Civil Service, otherwise I would have been a gay Roma Muslim.

SpaceTime

It just seems odd as I've been to interviews where even the slightest hint of an accidental reference to your marital status, never mind your sexual orientation or religious persuasion will result in a HR person interjecting and stopping the line of conversation.

ccee

Did anyone get/not get a confirmation email on completing the tests? Did mine this morning and I have received nothing after logging out of the test pages.....

cee_jay

I completed mine this morning also and did not receive a confirmation email on completion.

ezra_pound

I didn't get confirmation email but if I log back into test account it doesn't show any outstandingtests so I'm satidfied. That and the fact that at end of each round ir said results saved. Email woulds be nice though.

ccee

Same here, when I log in and select completed tasks, the two tests are in there so I guess that is as good as a confirmation! I hope the results are posted pretty quick! Fingers crossed!

ezra_pound

ccee wrote: »

Same here, when I log in and select completed tasks, the two tests are in there so I guess that is as good as a confirmation! I hope the results are posted pretty quick! Fingers crossed!

I think the ao results took about 3 weeks to come out if that's of any significance. I'm sure that someone here who did it could confirm.

delricyo

JUDE2013 wrote: »

Just did the tests now. Abstract went well (I think; you can't really know). I could have paced the verbal a little better, but was happy with it overall.

Just wondering, was anyone else a little taken aback by the personal information requested in the form to be filled out prior to starting the tests? This was my first time applying for a CS job and doing these tests, so it's probably the norm, but I really wasn't expecting to be asked about my cultural identity, religious beliefs and sexuality.

I havent done the test yet, but I can tell you that the survey above is perfectly normal for cs. Every civil service exam I have gone to, have supplied this survey. I dont see a problem. The survey results are not linked to your test results or your HR profile if/when you get the job.

Of all the employers in the country, the cs are very careful with your data. I remember when I first started in the cs I was surprised that the manager I had to report to did not know any of my details. All he knew was my name and start date. He didnt even know what my skills/qualifications were !!

If only these surveys were used to positively discriminate. I would put some rather interesting details down :pac:

delricyo

ezra_pound wrote: »

I think the ao results took about 3 weeks to come out if that's of any significance. I'm sure that someone here who did it could confirm.

They are aiming to do stage 2 tests and the first round of interviews this side of Christmas. So id say the results will be out very quickly. At this stage, id say they know exactly how many they need for stage 2 - so its a straight forward cut of the top x%

lucat

delricyo wrote: »

They are aiming to do stage 2 tests and the first round of interviews this side of Christmas. So id say the results will be out very quickly. At this stage, id say they know exactly how many they need for stage 2 - so its a straight forward cut of the top x%

That's nerve-racking! Do you think there'll be many who got perfect scores? If there were one hundred people who got 4 wrong in total, how would they choose which ones should go forward?

I think I got a few wrong as I didn't have time to go back and check....However I'm delighted that there's no maths involved!

delricyo

lucat wrote: »

That's nerve-racking! Do you think there'll be many who got perfect scores? If there were one hundred people who got 4 wrong in total, how would they choose which ones should go forward?

I think I got a few wrong as I didn't have time to go back and check....However I'm delighted that there's no maths involved!

In my opinion, id say the results will be normally distributed. That is, there will be a few who get nearly all right. A few more who get lots of them wrong. Then everybody else in the middle. Which makes it frustrating, the difference between getting to stage 2 and not, could well be just one or two questions

ezra_pound

delricyo wrote: »

They are aiming to do stage 2 tests and the first round of interviews this side of Christmas. So id say the results will be out very quickly. At this stage, id say they know exactly how many they need for stage 2 - so its a straight forward cut of the top x%

I thought stage 2 was going to be in january 2014. I don't know where I got that from though. Can you support your 2013 date?

TheCruiser

ezra_pound wrote: »

I thought stage 2 was going to be in january 2014. I don't know where I got that from though. Can you support your 2013 date?

From the information booklet:

" - Assessment Centre will be held in Public Appointments Service, Chapter House, 26 – 30 Abbey Street Upper, Dublin 1 (week commencing 25th November 2013).

- A competitive preliminary interview which may also include a presentation and/or an additional assessment exercise(s) (Interviews are expected to commence in December 2013).

- A final interview (expected to take place in early 2014)"

sureitsgrand

Jaysus.

That abstract reasoning test was tough enough I found.

Verbal was grand for me.

As someone said earlier, both would be easy enough if there was no time limit.

Getting through to stage two is such a pain in the hole.

TheCruiser

sureitsgrand wrote: »

Jaysus.

That abstract reasoning test was tough enough I found.

Verbal was grand for me.

As someone said earlier, both would be easy enough if there was no time limit.

Getting through to stage two is such a pain in the hole.

I take it the questions were harder than the online practice tests?

sureitsgrand

I thought so... But each to their own of course.

I was under a lot of time pressure for the abstract reasoning. 2 minutes per 4 questions. Rough.

Anyway, probably did as best as I could, so I'm relatively happy.

bakewell

Time Limit is the main thing - it's way faster than the practice. Also it's a bit of an endurance test - eight sets of four questions. You lose track of where you are. I really struggled to finish the verbal reasoning.:mad:

IS_a_Class

Anyone know what happens at stage 2?

The_Conductor

IS_a_Class wrote: »

Anyone know what happens at stage 2?

Repeat in the test centre, and the two sets of scores compared for consistency. Top 40 (or however many they decide) then called for interview/presentations etc.

delricyo

The_Conductor wrote: »

Repeat in the test centre, and the two sets of scores compared for consistency. Top 40 (or however many they decide) then called for interview/presentations etc.

Also, I think stage 2 also involves the group excercise and written excercise ?? Followed by a presentation from a DFA staff member.

For those of us lucky enough to get to stage 2 - it looks like it will most of the day spent in the PAS office ...

TheCruiser

Yep, more than just repeating the tests. Hope a few of us make it to round 2!

"This stage will also consist of a group exercise and a written exercise, both of which will take place on the same day as the supervised tests. "

delricyo

Feckin hell - that verbal reasoning was tough. Completely different than any other CS test I have done before. Managed to get into a routine after one or two sets of questions.
One thing I found annoying was not knowing how many questions were left. It seemed like it was going on forever at one stage. Click Next > More questions. Cue me cursing at the screen

The abstract reasoning was just ok. I had to guess at a few of them. The ones with the extra lines or dots beside the shapes threw me a bit.

At least its done now. Fingers crossed for the boardsies to get through to stage 2 !!

james987

Just did it there. Tougher than I'd expected. I thought the verbal reasoning would never end. Abstract wasn't too bad. I think timing could catch me. More than once I'd selected the answer on the last question and the timeout screen popped up before i'd clicked Finish.

Good luck to everyone.

The_Conductor

Fingers crossed- I'm about to do it now too.