Junior Diplomat/Third Secretary

ravingitup

I'm the same, met the standard but didn't get through. Best of luck to all who did, and like another commentator, here's hoping it won't be another four years until we get the opportunity to apply again. I do wonder how many got through to the supervised tests nonetheless.

la_rose

I agree with so many people posting here - wish the very best to everyone who got through, but its very frustrating to think that so many have been eliminated without a glance at our application forms. Fingers crossed for next time!

sarkozy

Yeah. I didn't get in. I mean, I worked in an Irish Embassy and government aid programme, and, like, totally did the job and set that out in my application, but like, whatever. Good luck to whoever they recruit, I guess.

Montjuic

sarkozy wrote: »

Yeah. I didn't get in. I mean, I worked in an Irish Embassy and government aid programme, and, like, totally did the job and set that out in my application, but like, whatever. Good luck to whoever they recruit, I guess.

'Loike' 'Whatever' - this has to be a wind up Ross O' Carroll Kelly is banned from the diplomatic corp lest the rest of the world thinks we are all D4 ****.

Newbie1985

I'm after getting through. Probably by the skin of my teeth. Does anyone know what form the next stage takes?

sarkozy

Montjuic wrote: »

'Loike' 'Whatever' - this has to be a wind up Ross O' Carroll Kelly is banned from the diplomatic corp lest the rest of the world thinks we are all D4 ****.

Sorry?

Montjuic

Reread your previous post! 'Like' 'Totally'

sarkozy

Who's 'we'? I'm actually very disappointed with my performance in the test and it underlines for me what an imperfect system it is. It works as an administrative method to make decisions on recruits easier and less threatening from their point of view, but clearly they're missing out on a lot of potentially talented people who so happen to not be very good at tests which are not remotely related to the reality of the workplace.

I'm also quite sensitive to your comment, which is grossly inaccurate and unfair (it was a figure of speech), considering the fact that I'm unemployed with a family to feed, have been forced to abandon my career of 10 years and am desperate to and struggling to find a way to earn an income at or above the average industrial wage.

That's my story. What's yours? Have a bit of respect.

Montjuic

Ah I take it all back just have a thing about D4 speak was tongue in cheek more so. My story is probably even more complicated but I'm sorry for your troubles and wish you the best.

Totally agree though re the recruitment methods it is heartbreaking to spend so much time working on a CV and know it will never even be read. As the states public jobs recruitment body I think it should be demanded at least as a basic acknowledgement of our rights as the states citizens that all CVs would be read and examined properly and not subject to the lazy arbitrary way at present. The best candidates do not make it through. I know two third secs from a previous competition a vet and engineer respectively who did it for the craic and got through and who I know for a fact had no idea or interest what it was all about. The abstract reasoning suits the scientific mind not the literary/linguistic mind so it's really unfair.

Col711

I was lucky enough to make it through to the next round, are the just running stage 2 on 1 day with everyone who made it through I wonder? I was called for Monday the 25th at 11am, is everyone else who made it through the same?

Col711

Newbie1985 wrote: »

I'm after getting through. Probably by the skin of my teeth. Does anyone know what form the next stage takes?

All I know is that it says in the email that there will be verbal and abstract reasoning tests and a job simulation test, followed by a group exercise and a written exercise... Have no idea of what the group and written exercises might comprise though...

Newbie1985

Col711 wrote: »

I was lucky enough to make it through to the next round, are the just running stage 2 on 1 day with everyone who made it through I wonder? I was called for Monday the 25th at 11am, is everyone else who made it through the same?

I'm 28th

ezra_pound

Newbie1985 wrote: »

I'm 28th

I'm in Fri 29th 9am

ezra_pound

5 days. 40 people a day?

Newbie1985

ezra_pound wrote: »

5 days. 40 people a day?

I suppose depends how many are in the groups. It takes 5 hours so extremely labour/resource intensive for PJ.

JUDE2013

They seem to be staggering it at 09:00 and 11:00 (and realistically could have another group come in at 13:00 and finish at 18:00, although this is unlikely as it would give them no time to review the applicants' performances). Even if they see 80 a day and 400 overall, that is still a 1 in 10 chance of being recruited, which is far better than most jobs I apply for.

Newbie1985

JUDE2013 wrote: »

They seem to be staggering it at 09:00 and 11:00 (and realistically could have another group come in at 13:00 and finish at 18:00, although this is unlikely as it would give them no time to review the applicants' performances). Even if they see 80 a day and 400 overall, that is still a 1 in 10 chance of being recruited, which is far better than most jobs I apply for.

I'm 9.00 am. Are some people in at 11.00am?

Col711

JUDE2013 wrote: »

They seem to be staggering it at 09:00 and 11:00 (and realistically could have another group come in at 13:00 and finish at 18:00, although this is unlikely as it would give them no time to review the applicants' performances). Even if they see 80 a day and 400 overall, that is still a 1 in 10 chance of being recruited, which is far better than most jobs I apply for.

That's true, a 1 in 10 chance are decent odds for any job. It will be interesting to see what type of things come up for the group and written exercises.

JUDE2013

Newbie1985 wrote: »

I'm 9.00 am. Are some people in at 11.00am?

Yeah. I'm at 11:00, which is actually perfect for me as I have to travel. Let's hope I don't use up all my luck too early in the competition.

Newbie1985

If one gets through is there one or two interviews left in the process?

Col711

Newbie1985 wrote: »

If one gets through is there one or two interviews left in the process?

As far as I know, there would be 2 interviews left in the process. One in December and one in January.

lucat

According to this article there are only 20 jnr. diplomats being hired. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/irish-foreign-policy-review-must-reflect-changed-circumstances-in-the-world-1.1596614

Newbie1985

Is that accurate or lazy journalism?

IS_a_Class

Where is the source that stated 40, does anyone know?

On a separate note, how do you plan on approaching the group exercise? Any one I ever participated in has descended into one-up-man-ship pretty quickly. It would be nice if that doesn't happen.

Newbie1985

IS_a_Class wrote: »

Where is the source that stated 40, does anyone know?

On a separate note, how do you plan on approaching the group exercise? Any one I ever participated in has descended into one-up-man-ship pretty quickly. It would be nice if that doesn't happen.

Would PJ say how many positions they're filling?
Not a clue about group exercise. Play it by ear I suppose.

ezra_pound

IS_a_Class wrote: »

Where is the source that stated 40, does anyone know?

On a separate note, how do you plan on approaching the group exercise? Any one I ever participated in has descended into one-up-man-ship pretty quickly. It would be nice if that doesn't happen.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-hire-senior-civil-servants-1.1466743

Maybe there will be 40 recruited over the next year with 20 almost immediately? Or else one article is wrong. Or both are.


Edit:

Are you coming along after all Is_a_class?

alfoso

This was my third time going for this competition, the last time I was ranked 5th in the initial test, this time I didn't get through! The test has changed a lot since previous years, before it was a job simulation instead of the abstract reasoning section... which I felt was much more relevant. Also I feel perhaps I perform better in the test centre with paper and pencil rather than online... ah well. I have to say the interview was the toughest thing I've ever gone through, so I'm glad not to have to do that again!

I've done the group part twice, and its not too bad. Be prepared to talk and to contribute to the conversation, but not to talk too much or talk over others. Both times I did it there was at least one person trying to talk over me when I spoke. If people get like that, just keep your mouths closed and dont argue with them, they are just making themselves look bad. Two people got into a bit of a showdown one time I did it, it made the whole group really uncomfortable, and you can bet they didnt get through.

It was pretty much the same both times, it was an imaginary meeting where we were working in a company that had delegates coming to visit, and we had to prepare a trip around Ireland for them, but of course there were a couple of factors which made it difficult, such as people's schedules and the budget. We were given a few minutes in silence to read all the materials, then had an hour to talk, which goes surprisingly quickly. It would be good to volunteer yourself straight away to either keep an eye on the time or the budget, as that will allow you to make a contribution to the group. I didnt get through the first time, I think because I was overwhelmed and didnt talk enough, the second time I volunteered myself to look after the time, and I was able to contribute a bit more to the conversation (lets take 10 minutes to look at this option... okay now lets move on to this option...etc) Neither time I did it did we manage to finish the task completely (i.e. agree on a plan that worked within budget) but that obviously doesnt matter as they are looking at individual performances.

The written part was slightly different both times, but I can't remember exactly what it was, something like re-writing and condensing a piece to extract the most important information. I found it very easy.

The interview, should you get through this, is very tough I have to say!!!

JUDE2013

Thanks for the advice Alfoso.

About how many people take part in the group exercise? For some reason I have 10 in my head, but I have no idea where that figure came from.

The group exercise is the only part of stage 2 that I'm not comfortable with. I've never liked that kind of assessment.

alfoso

Hmm, I can't remember exactly, but don't think it was that many. Maybe 6 or 8. It's really not that bad if you just relax, it was my nerves that threw me the first time.

JUDE2013

That's not so bad I suppose. The fewer the better: less egos to clash. Thanks for your help.

Albert_Roi

For those wondering where the figure of 40 third secretaries to be hired, I think it came from this Irish Times article back in July: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-to-hire-senior-civil-servants-1.1466743

The fact that we're now hearing different figures for how many are to be hired continues to inspire further confidence in this excellently-run recruitment process. :P

hopefullegal

Guys how exactly does a Third Sec's career break up? 3yrs in Dublin/Limerick initially followed by foreign postings of 4 years with a year or two back in Ireland in between?

Also how long does one spend as a Third Secretary; 5 years? (I'm sure it varies from person to person but a rough average)

IS_a_Class

ezra_pound wrote: »

Are you coming along after all Is_a_class?

i am indeed, early train student ticket, not too bad at all! it is really good experience that i would be stupid to turn down really. Just gonna go in there and try and enjoy it

Winterspring

You wont spend 3years in Dublin. Usually 2 and sometimes depending how badly they need people abroad it could even b one year at home.

Assignments abroad are 4 3years with the option of 4 or if it is a hardship post they 2years with the option of three.

Promotion from 3rd sec is very competitive and it is very unlikely you would b promoted after 5years. I think 10-15 is prob closer to d current norm since d promotions ban.

A lot of people leave as the demands are very high on your time. In an embassy abroad you could b on call every weekend. Decisions on which embassy you get assigned to are also made very ad hoc so you could spend you whole career going between nightmare assignments.

ezra_pound

Winterspring wrote: »

You wont spend 3years in Dublin. Usually 2 and sometimes depending how badly they need people abroad it could even b one year at home.

Assignments abroad are 4 3years with the option of 4 or if it is a hardship post they 2years with the option of three.

Promotion from 3rd sec is very competitive and it is very unlikely you would b promoted after 5years. I think 10-15 is prob closer to d current norm since d promotions ban.

A lot of people leave as the demands are very high on your time. In an embassy abroad you could b on call every weekend. Decisions on which embassy you get assigned to are also made very ad hoc so you could spend you whole career going between nightmare assignments.

Are family circumstances taken into account re assignment I.e. does father of young children have same chance of being assigned to ramallah as single person?

Winterspring

ezra_pound wrote: »

Are family circumstances taken into account re assignment I.e. does father of young children have same chance of being assigned to ramallah as single person?

It is part of the contract to go. A lot of people hv different family circumstances so it is impossible to keep everyone happy and you cant disadvantage others just because they dont hv family. So you cant just send all the single people to d hardship posts. Know a lot of people who hv left because of demands being too high. In a lot of countries your spouse cant work so that can b tough. Suits some nd not others.

hopefullegal

Thanks Winterspring. Very long average time for promotion. Just looking at the salary scales, not much for supporting a family on after 10 years on the job! Then again I know there are Foreign Service Allowances and no tax etc (getting ahead of myself, I'll be lucky to make the next round :-)

The_Conductor

hopefullegal wrote: »

Thanks Winterspring. Very long average time for promotion. Just looking at the salary scales, not much for supporting a family on after 10 years on the job! Then again I know there are Foreign Service Allowances and no tax etc (getting ahead of myself, I'll be lucky to make the next round :-)

Its not particularly long period for promotion- its akin to elsewhere in the civil service (esp. since the start of reductions in 2002- and this was long before the official moratorium came into being).

Best of good luck getting through to the next round- and congrats on getting this far.

sarkozy

Hopefullegal:

There *is* income tax. In my experience, and to my knowledge, there is specific mention of members of the public service serving abroad in tax legislation and Revenue documentation obliging those public servants to pay tax. I did while serving overseas. I don't know if it applies to, for example, UN secondments.

Relocation allowances, and hardship posting pay, in addition to paid rent while serving in a mission, are true, but certain restrictions apply and they've been clamped down on.

ezra_pound

sarkozy wrote: »

Hopefullegal:

There *is* income tax. In my experience, and to my knowledge, there is specific mention of members of the public service serving abroad in tax legislation and Revenue documentation obliging those public servants to pay tax. I did while serving overseas. I don't know if it applies to, for example, UN secondments.

Relocation allowances, and hardship posting pay, in addition to paid rent while serving in a mission, are true, but certain restrictions apply and they've been clamped down on.

You can get vat rebate / sales tax rebate though, right? Also excise rebate?

sarkozy

Serving diplomats have access to duty free shops if available. So it's possible. Nonsense if you ask me.

The new recruits, selected on account of their very relevant skill for aptitude tests, will see this as wonderful compensation for doing a job they're not remotely interested in.

The greatest benefit of all is the perks. Anachronistic perks. While serving, I had my own dishwasher. A human dishwasher, with a name and everything.

A nasty bubble.

Good luck, everyone!

Mrs OBumble

Reminder: Please don't use txt spk eg lots of ppl hve ...

It's against boards.ie policy, and likely to make people report your post.

JohnMearsheimer

np24 wrote: »

I got the same message too, met the standard but not in the top group, I wonder if you get more feedback later i.e. your actual result. This is the hardest stage I think if you are suitable at all you could get through the next stages easier. The abstract reasoning is a nitemare I have never sat such an exam and I dispute it measures raw intelligence it is clearly biased to people who have experience here as there are rules and tricks to pass that you would know with practice. In verbal or numerical at least you can accept missing out with abstract I think you could feasibly get them all wrong if you are not experienced. Whereas with Verbal or Numerical I could feasibly get them all right and would always get a lot right. Hopefully they recruit again in 2 years and I will try again this time I will spend the preceding year applying for every job posted on publicjobs.ie and sitting the corresponding aptitude tests for experience. Does anyone know how you get an AO job with the DFA? Anyway good luck to those who got through really is the dream job.

I don't think there are any AOs in the DFA.

My best friend made it through to the next stage (he also got through the AO testing). He's an accountant. He got A1s in Leaving Cert maths, applied maths, physics, tech drawing and accounting. He is very numerate and a very technically minded guy but he doesn't have any interest in foreign policy or international affairs.

He had a bit of a go at me, in a friendly way, when he found out I didn't apply this time. On paper my background is much more suitable to the job than his. I told him I had given up on the 3rd sec. The previous 2 times I have gone for this I got the 'you have met the qualifying standard but tough' email. Previous experience or academic background doesn't come into it at stage one as it's a numbers game. I understand why the 3rd sec competition is the way it is. That's the way it is so more power to my buddy and those that made it through.

Guyanachronism

Montjuic wrote: »

The best candidates do not make it through. I know two third secs from a previous competition a vet and engineer respectively who did it for the craic and got through and who I know for a fact had no idea or interest what it was all about. The abstract reasoning suits the scientific mind not the literary/linguistic mind so it's really unfair.

Was there no language requirement for your friends?

While in principle I think relevant qualifications and languages shouldn't be a necassary requirement, critical thinking/analytical skills and an aptitude for acquiring new languages should give someone a clear advantage.

If nobody was dropped after the initial application, how many people are now through that put down leaving certificate French as their language?

I would like to see figures for how many of the civil service jobbridge interns, EU presidency interns and contract workers as well as the HR law interns in the DFA made it through to the next round. The last three in particular have the same basic requiement as the third secretary positions (i.e. policy analysis and foreign languages).

Newbie1985

I have one of the more unusual languages referred to as attracting extra credit (degree and 2 years living in country). Is that likely to carry much additional weight in my favour?

lucat

sarkozy wrote: »

Serving diplomats have access to duty free shops if available. So it's possible. Nonsense if you ask me.

The new recruits, selected on account of their very relevant skill for aptitude tests, will see this as wonderful compensation for doing a job they're not remotely interested in.

The greatest benefit of all is the perks. Anachronistic perks. While serving, I had my own dishwasher. A human dishwasher, with a name and everything.

A nasty bubble.

Good luck, everyone!

Just out of curiosity, do you have a DFA background Sarkozy, or were you in the armed forces or similar?

thegoatboy

Applied for this and didnt get through. Part of me is a bit ticked off, because I have relevant qualifications and work experience, and the idea that this counts for nothing feels like a slap in the face. That said, my main interest is in EU affairs which comes under Dept of Taoiseach's remit now. I know a lot of the staff there have been seconded from DFA. Does anyone know if this is set to continue? Or will there be a competition for Taoiseach's at some stage?

Fuc

I've just read this thread, it's been very useful - thanks.

I have got through to the next stage. I can sympathise with those that didn't get past the psychometric tests, it's a blunt method to reduce the numbers of applicants, but as mentioned probably the least worst method.

Does anyone know if there is any specific language requirements? eg. particular foreign language requirements or competency in Irish? etc.

sarkozy

lucat wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, do you have a DFA background Sarkozy, or were you in the armed forces or similar?

DFAT.

JUDE2013

Fuc wrote: »

Does anyone know if there is any specific language requirements? eg. particular foreign language requirements or competency in Irish? etc.

This is the quote taken directly from the info. book.

"Knowledge of Foreign Languages

Ability to work in a major foreign language such as French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Arabic or Russian will be a distinct advantage and candidates may be given credit for such knowledge.

An officer who does not have a good working knowledge of a foreign language will be expected to acquire such knowledge. Progress in this area will be assessed during and towards the end of the one year probationary period and satisfactory progress will be a condition of confirmation of appointment as a Third Secretary."

So there you go, it's useful but not an absolute requirement.

P.S. I think that you can request to be assessed on your competency of Irish, but it's not a requirement.