Zeitgeist

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

and its Right because??????????????????????

seriously man

Why would they need to cut girders before hand? How did they do it with noone seeing? Cutting through several large steel girders in a busy office would be quite noticeable? Since it's a fair bet that Bush and Cheney don't do alot of steel work so contractors would have to do it. How come none have come forward?

Occam's razor.
You have to assume alot to make the evidence fit into the conspiracy.
All you have to assume for the other side is that a CT took something out of context. Not exactly a leap of faith.

Mahatma coat

once you start making assumptions you have lost your high ground of righteousness, so what makes your assumptions any beter than ours

your Occams razor only works if you are in possesion of all the facts, which clearly you are not, so again what makes your assumptions logial and correct and ours baseless speculation.

Urge to use a recently banned word rising

Time Magazine

Mahatma coat wrote: »

once you start making assumptions you have lost your high ground of righteousness, so what makes your assumptions any beter than ours

your Occams razor only works if you are in possesion of all the facts, which clearly you are not, so again what makes your assumptions logial and correct and ours baseless speculation.

Urge to use a recently banned word rising

This is completely flawed. Just entirely.

From the top:

Mahatma coat wrote: »

once you start making assumptions you have lost your high ground of righteousness, so what makes your assumptions any beter than ours

There's an assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow, and there's an assumption that it won't. Can you see the distinction in the acceptability of these?

your Occams razor only works if you are in possesion of all the facts

Wrong. Oftentimes there are no facts, but the truth always exists. Moreover, Ockham's razor requires assumptions.

again what makes your assumptions logial and correct and ours baseless speculation.

You're completely missing the logic of Ockham if that's your argument. The difference between "logical and correct" and "baseless speculation" is much like "right" and "wrong". Ockham stated that the theory most likely to be "right" is that with the fewest assumptions. What makes assumptions correct are whether they are true -- a universal constant -- or not.

Urge to use a recently banned word rising

Is that a round-about way of insulting someone?

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

once you start making assumptions you have lost your high ground of righteousness, so what makes your assumptions any beter than ours

your Occams razor only works if you are in possesion of all the facts, which clearly you are not, so again what makes your assumptions logial and correct and ours baseless speculation.

Urge to use a recently banned word rising

Because mine's a much smaller one and much more likely.
Also the other gaping holes in the conspiracy theory.

Also occams razor does work if you don't have all the facts. When you have two explanations, the one with the least assumptions is most likely the better explanations.

Basically the photos of "cut" girders don't actually prove anything either way.
The suggestion that the photo was taken later than conspiracy theorists claim offers a different explanation. However because there is no date for the photo in question it is in no way proof of a controlled demolition. Nor is is proof against.

King Mob

Kama wrote: »

It's not 'wrong' per se, it's just symmetrical with the rhetorics of CT that thou and Diogenes tend to criticise; hence Kernels use of bold.

That the world could be ruled by anarchocapitalist Semitic Lizards wearing Prada proof, evidence, etc etc. 'Not unreasonable' is another dependable device...nice looping double negative without substantive content, I mean, can't we just be reasonable, unlike those unreasonable people...

Shibboleths ain't just for Christmas...

Reasonably is fairly easy to judge. Useing language like this is just intellectually honest. It allows for you to be wrong.

Do you believe it unreasonable to expect firemen there well after the event, long enough for an ironworker to cut the column?If so why?

This isn't an assumption by the way they do have dated pictures of firemen being at the clean up site in October and November.

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Urge to use a recently banned word rising

And way to go against the exact same rule you banned someone for not 5 hours ago. Well done.

Kernel

King Mob wrote: »

Most of their references are right there in blue.

Yea that's fairly clear. It offers a better explanation than pre-cut girders.
And it's wrong because.....?

You made the the claim, ergo the burden of proof lies with you. You haven't proved anything, so until you do, stop claiming it as fact. Thanks.

King Mob

Kernel wrote: »

You made the the claim, ergo the burden of proof lies with you. You haven't proved anything, so until you do, stop claiming it as fact. Thanks.

See this is why I tend to use words like "probably".
Allow me to clarify.

CTers claim that this picture is proof that the girders where cut before the collapse.
They claim that this picture was taken before the clean up operation due to the presence of the firefighters. Reason that they would not be there after the rescue operation.
However there are dated photos of the site with firefighters present into October and November. This is also backed up by other evidence provided in the link I gave.
Therefore that picture could have been taken at any time during the clean up. Thus it is not proof of the girders being cut before hand unless a date for that photo or another dated photo show otherwise.
This on top of the other problems for the theory about the girder being cut beforehand lead me to the conclusion that they weren't.
Perhaps you can find a flaw in my logic?

So how come I'm the only one you press evidence?

Kernel

King Mob wrote: »

So how come I'm the only one you press evidence?

I don't see any evidence, are you trying to dodge the inevitable here? There was no definitive evidence on your link that those support beams were cut by blowtorches, as you claim.

To answer you question, I press you for evidence because you are very vocal about the need for evidence in order to post in the conspiract theories forum. So, I'd like you to apply the same yardstick to your own posts. Otherwise it's a double standard on your part, no?

King Mob

Kernel wrote: »

I don't see any evidence, are you trying to dodge the inevitable here? There was no definitive evidence on your link that those support beams were cut by blowtorches, as you claim.

Yea there is some pretty definite evidence on that site showing it was cut. Difference is it makes the argument that this was done during the clean up not, as the CTers claim, before the attack.

So no you can't fault my logic?

Kernel wrote: »

To answer you question, I press you for evidence because you are very vocal about the need for evidence in order to post in the conspiract theories forum. So, I'd like you to apply the same yardstick to your own posts. Otherwise it's a double standard on your part, no?

And I have no problem backing up my stuff, because I can.
So how come you don't ask other people?

Kernel

King Mob wrote: »

Yea there is some pretty definite evidence on that site showing it was cut.

Pretty definite? Lol... anyway, you have no evidence that the beams were cut with blowtorches during the clean up operation. If you do, throw it out onto this forum, because I looked at your link and it wasn't there.

King Mob

Kernel wrote: »

Pretty definite? Lol... anyway, you have no evidence that the beams were cut with blowtorches during the clean up operation. If you do, throw it out onto this forum, because I looked at your link and it wasn't there.

So what..... They didn't ever cut any girders during the clean up?
There's a picture of a guy using a blow torch to cut part of the wreckage on that page.

Still waiting for you to show me were my logic is flawed.

Kernel

King Mob wrote: »

So what..... They didn't ever cut any girders during the clean up?
There's a picture of a guy using a blow torch to cut part of the wreckage on that page.

Still waiting for you to show me were my logic is flawed.

Still no evidence from you either. Ah... an unsubstantiated claim which Mob cannot prove. How sweet, the irony. :pac:

King Mob

Kernel wrote: »

Still no evidence from you either. Ah... an unsubstantiated claim which Mob cannot prove. How sweet, the irony. :pac:

A picture of a guy cutting a beam on the world trade centre site site is not proof they cut beams on the world trade centre site?

Wow.

So tell what exactly am I claiming Kernel?

I claim that it was there is an alternative, more likely explanation for the picture of cut girders.
Have I not backed this up with evidence and sound logic?

Mahatma coat

OK Lads we have a 911 thread, kep the discusipns there.

Mob & Kernel, stop it both of ye, this thread along with others has been derailed and become nothing more than an egowank for certain posters

stop feedin the Trolls both of ye

Flamed Diving

I still have yet to receive an email from Peter. It's funny that he was so willing to respond to a customer fan, but not to a critic.

Martyr

Isn't this the way things have always been, once our societies grew bigger than a couple of thousand people?

only with stupid white men.

what about other civilisations in the world? lived from the land for hundreds if not thousands of years without even thinking about money.

what was wrong with that way of living?

Veni Vedi Vici

Martyr wrote: »

only with stupid white men.

what about other civilisations in the world? lived from the land for hundreds if not thousands of years without even thinking about money.

Is this accurate does anyone know? Was there ever a civilization that never graduated into a monetary or primitive coinage system?

King Mob

Martyr wrote: »

only with stupid white men.

what about other civilisations in the world? lived from the land for hundreds if not thousands of years without even thinking about money.

what was wrong with that way of living?

Infant mortality? Life expectancy of like 30? Lack of education? Lack of plumbing?

And more importantly the lack of a medium to present your opinions freely?

Martyr

Infant mortality? Life expectancy of like 30? Lack of education? Lack of plumbing?

what people are you referring to? the only country i know with a life expectancy of 30 is on the continent of africa..

you could argue, that is due to white mans interference with other cultures..trying to show others a "better way of life" by buying and selling anything they could get their hands, including human flesh..spreading "democracy" which should be re-defined as - killing everyone who resists your point of view, occupation of your land by armed forces, stealing natural resources - just like they do now in Iraq.

oh.. i forgot, life is really about getting educated and then spending the rest of your life working to pay back a debt to some rich banker, right?

- what a great way to live, to live a complete lie, an illusion, believing that you own something you don't...


or if you're a "gecko" type, exploiting poor people like trafficking humans for sexual exploitation..but hey, we could rationalise it as being "the free market", a life of misery for poor people around the world just to make a few percent "happy"

you work your whole life, and what the hell for? to feel like you've achieved something?
its all bollocks, the only thing most people achieve is to make the rich, richer.

would 30 years be so bad if you actually did something good with it?
you want to live forever?

And more importantly the lack of a medium to present your opinions freely?

opinions about what? about gay marriages? about who would make a good president? or maybe your favourite band who the hell cares.

King Mob

Martyr wrote: »

what people are you referring to? the only country i know with a life expectancy of 30 is on the continent of africa..


you could argue, that is due to white mans interference with other cultures..trying to show others a "better way of life" by buying and selling anything they could get their hands, including human flesh..spreading "democracy" ny killing everyone who resisted occupation of their land and stealing of their wealth, just like they do now in Iraq.

oh.. i forgot, life is really about getting educated and then spending the rest of your life working to pay back a debt to some rich banker, right? :rolleyes:

or if you're a "gecko" type, exploiting poor people like trafficking humans for sexual exploitation..but hey, we could rationalise it as being "the free market" - what a great way to live, to live a complete lie, an illusion, believing that you own something you don't...

you work your whole life, and what the hell for? to feel like you've achieved something?
its all bollocks, the only thing most people achieve is to make the rich, richer.

would 30 years be so bad if you actually did something good with it?
you want to live forever?



opinions about what? about gay marriages? about who would make a good president? who the hell cares.

Well you said people had been living off the land for thousands of years and where grand.
This was not the case.
You seem to be taking a lot for granted like medicine and law and clean food.

But hey if you wanna live for about 30 years before dying of a preventable condition, refuse to avail your self of good education and spend every day struggling for food and give up your legal rights go nuts.
I'm sure there's a ton of people you'd love to switch with you.

Martyr

Well you said people had been living off the land for thousands of years and where grand.
This was not the case.

there are STILL people in parts of the world quite happily living off the land/river/sea, they have lived this way for generations, and want to continue their way of life.

Unfortunately they can't, because of stupid white men who measure themselves by the size of their bank balance.

the more money they have, the more they feel a self-worth.
its just greed and selfishness, not to mention stupid.

You seem to be taking a lot for granted like medicine and law and clean food.

i don't take it for granted, i have to pay for it like everyone else in the great world we live in...

in the past, you got your own food from the forest or the sea, and it didn't cost anything, people still live this way in parts of the world and there is nothing wrong with it.

instead, we've replaced that with cancerous microwave meals and genetically modified vegatables and think we're creative..we're just total idiots, thats all.

But hey if you wanna live for about 30 years before dying of a preventable condition, refuse to avail your self of good education and spend every day struggling for food and give up your legal rights go nuts.
I'm sure there's a ton of people you'd love to switch with you.

i would be quite happy to live my life the old way if i could and if that meant only 30 years, had i not been working or stuck in a classroom most of my life, i'd be quite happy, so would most of us.

if you can imagine living as a native american before the europeans came and slaughtered millions of them just to create a "better life", you'd be able to drink fresh clean water every day without worrying about becoming sick from some man-made poisonous chemicals dumped in the rivers and steams like today.

you'd still be living from the land and rivers but now thats barely possible.

people did live FREE, for along time, and it was ruined by money and stupid white men.

you think there is something wrong with a FREE way of life?, that receiving an education, to get a "good job" in society, living to 65 just to work your ass off paying bills is better?

i'd live 30 years of freedom.

Veni Vedi Vici

Martyr wrote: »

you think there is something wrong with a FREE way of life?, that receiving an education, to get a "good job" in society, living to 65 just to work your ass off paying bills is better?

You're actually making a whole lot of sense. Your posts have really hit a nerve to be honest but in a positive way.

Our so called lives are a sham and our day's of free living have long since passed. Our day to day priorities are embarrasingly shallow. They usually involve us functioning as consumers or reacting to a television that indoctrinates us societally. We are so out of touch with our own nature that we have become uninformed lobotomized passivists. We've been born into bondage as an impersonable unit of measurment within an economy that ultimatley only serves those who are top of the monetary hill in the first place.

The amount of greed in this world absolutley sickens me. How we stand by and let it happen takes a bigger bite out my resolve every day.

mysterious

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

You're actually making a whole lot of sense. Your posts have really hit a nerve to be honest but in a positive way.

Our so called lives are a sham and our day's of free living have long since passed. Our day to day priorities are embarrasingly shallow. They usually involve us functioning as consumers or reacting to a television that indoctrinates us societally. We are so out of touch with our own nature that we have become uninformed lobotomized passivists. We've been born into bondage as an impersonable unit of measurment within an economy that ultimatley only serves those who are top of the monetary hill in the first place.

The amount of greed in this world absolutley sickens me. How we stand by and let it happen takes a bigger bite out my resolve every day.

Your post touches some really touchy pysche I have of the world.

Your all finally getting it. The lives of working 9 to 5, paying taxes, following a curriculam, getting a "degree" buying a car hitting the masses with thier simalar automobiles every day for the rest of your lives.

The leaders and the followers, we are the followers. The leaders of this world created this reality, and yes you said it for greed and domination.

Interdimensional beings, are enjoying their time experiencing and altering this realiity (my opinion_

Yes the enture planet has become out of touch with reality. This is why epeople don't understand that I recieve wisdom, power, knowledge and awareness via nature. I get my information via the cosmos.

The awakaening has begun, finally my realisations are here. People are really waking up. This really really is uplifting to me.

P.S, my life experieces early on in life prepared me for much of what is to come.

meglome

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

You're actually making a whole lot of sense. Your posts have really hit a nerve to be honest but in a positive way.

Our so called lives are a sham and our day's of free living have long since passed. Our day to day priorities are embarrasingly shallow. They usually involve us functioning as consumers or reacting to a television that indoctrinates us societally. We are so out of touch with our own nature that we have become uninformed lobotomized passivists. We've been born into bondage as an impersonable unit of measurment within an economy that ultimatley only serves those who are top of the monetary hill in the first place.

The amount of greed in this world absolutley sickens me. How we stand by and let it happen takes a bigger bite out my resolve every day.

I'm all for less greed in the world. But the simple fact is all throughout history people have been shown to be greedy. Yes in some societies such as the Aboriginals in Australia it was different but in most it really wasn't, ever.

I don't know whether to laugh or not here as you're taking absolute nonsense, we had never had it better in recorded history. Now I'm not saying our society is perfect, far from it. And I don't expect everyone to be happy with their lot in life but try living in the nineteenth century and see how you enjoy that. In the past the majority of people worked longer, had less food, little access to education, no vote, little or no holidays, couldn't travel, terrible infant mortality, died young and literally didn't have a pot to piss in. Go back to the 'idyll' of the past if you want but you can count me out.

Mahatma coat

we cant judge thepast by modern standards, what we can do is examine where we are now as a result of all this 'Progress' and ask ourselves if we really ARE any better off.

Ray Davies Knows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEep67akIn4

I dont want to die in a nuclear war
I wanna sail away to a distant shore................

6th

Martyr wrote: »

the more money they have, the more they feel a self-worth.
its just greed and selfishness, not to mention stupid.
..............
you think there is something wrong with a FREE way of life?, that receiving an education, to get a "good job" in society, living to 65 just to work your ass off paying bills is better?

i'd live 30 years of freedom.

Then why dont you? I get sick of people preaching and saying what is wrong with the world yet they are living the same life.

Do you work? Do you pay tax? Are you availing of any money from the government? You're sitting at a computer obviously. Do you buy produce? Do you buy "treats" for yourself i.e. music, magazines etc? Do you go to the cinema?

mysterious wrote: »

Your post touches some really touchy pysche I have of the world.

Your all finally getting it. The lives of working 9 to 5, paying taxes, following a curriculam, getting a "degree" buying a car hitting the masses with thier simalar automobiles every day for the rest of your lives.

The leaders and the followers, we are the followers. The leaders of this world created this reality, and yes you said it for greed and domination.

Interdimensional beings, are enjoying their time experiencing and altering this realiity (my opinion_

Yes the enture planet has become out of touch with reality. This is why epeople don't understand that I recieve wisdom, power, knowledge and awareness via nature. I get my information via the cosmos.

The awakaening has begun, finally my realisations are here. People are really waking up. This really really is uplifting to me.

P.S, my life experieces early on in life prepared me for much of what is to come.

Same questions as above for you.

Seriously, lead by example and come back to me when you've actually made some real changes in your own lives.

bonkey

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

Is this accurate does anyone know? Was there ever a civilization that never graduated into a monetary or primitive coinage system?

I'm not sure about money, but...

Jared Diamond, in one of his books, does make the case that agriculture was perhaps the most significant factor in terms of introducing societal inequality of all time.

Prior to agriculture, we had hunter-gatherer societies. The very nature of th activities limited the inequalities and the society-sizes. Agriculture effectively provided the resources to allow for dedicated artisans, artists, and a ruling class.

So if Diamond is correct, then civilisation - which we would usually restrict to post-agricultural-development societies was always rife with inequality, power and greed.

nyarlothothep

yep, the society we live in is full of sh1t, from birth people are encouraged to be greedy pathological monsters and good consumers. Human nature is multifaceted, it does not equate to greed. Do not accept what has been given to you by historical legacy and the environment around you. I encourage everyone to go out there and undermine the system, I know I am.

6th

nyarlothothep wrote: »

yep, the society we live in is full of sh1t, from birth people are encouraged to be greedy pathological monsters and good consumers. Human nature is multifaceted, it does not equate to greed. Do not accept what has been given to you by historical legacy and the environment around you. I encourage everyone to go out there and undermine the system, I know I am.

How?

Mahatma coat

well how would you sugget we make these change 6th.

the first step i to acknowledge that there is a problem, then to set about correcting it.

a lot of the poster on this forum have made change to how they interact with the world foisted upon us, some are new members just coming to term with the reality of the world around them, its easy to criticsie, its a bit more difficule to reach a consensus as to what should be done. dont assume that posters here are not doing things in their own way to make a difference.

6th

Mahatma coat wrote: »

well how would you sugget we make these change 6th.

I'm not suggesting there are any changes that need making.

the first step i to acknowledge that there is a problem, then to set about correcting it.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

dont assume that posters here are not doing things in their own way to make a difference.

I'm not assuming anything, thats why I am asking what they are doing.

6th

MC, we all see posts on here were people say that those that dont wake up to what is going on are sheeple, lazy, greedy etc.

I want to know what the people who make these comments are doing and maybe learn what (if anything) I should be doing?

Nick_oliveri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

its a bit more difficule to reach a consensus as to what should be done.

Correct. Even the new Zeitgeist initiation presentation does not make it clear, its against politics/government and the monetary economy...

All it is at the moment is a good alternative theory, it seems there is nothing going to be done to achieve it. Also, I think the Venus Project "store" is very hypocritical, and its after putting me off the whole thing somewhat.

Mahatma coat

I'm not assuming anything, thats why I am asking what they are doing.

as the moderator of the forum might I suggest that you have a cursory glance back through some of the threads where we have outlined these things, there have been discusions on this previously, lots of people have outlined how they are doing their small part.

But I suppose we could all do a recap for thebenefit of the newcomers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tHEGo-g3mw

Work to live, dont live to work
Live within your means
Dont interact unnescesscerily with thsystem
(I dont carry ID, My cars and phones are dummy registered, the house is in the GF's name)
Grow your own food
make your own Fuel
AVOID DEBT
I also avoid Social welfare

this does not mean that you have to live like St Kevin on the side of a feckin cliff eatin drybread and moss

but it does mean that you take a good look at how you live your life andhow it can be scaled back

unfortunatley its too late for a lot o people, but we van help the younger generations to avoid some of the pitfalls

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

we cant judge thepast by modern standards, what we can do is examine where we are now as a result of all this 'Progress' and ask ourselves if we really ARE any better off.

Ray Davies Knows

I dont want to die in a nuclear war
I wanna sail away to a distant shore................

Of course we can. We can detail what we feel is wrong with our lives and look at whether this was better or worse in the past. Now under almost any heading you choose it is much better now. You can say it's not but list off the things that are worse for me as I honestly don't know what they are.

meglome

nyarlothothep wrote: »

yep, the society we live in is full of sh1t, from birth people are encouraged to be greedy pathological monsters and good consumers. Human nature is multifaceted, it does not equate to greed. Do not accept what has been given to you by historical legacy and the environment around you. I encourage everyone to go out there and undermine the system, I know I am.

We live in a very consumer driven society there's no doubt, where too much is still not always considered enough. But ask yourself why this is so? I would suggest that it's because we have things so easy in historical terms that we can be easily taught to want even what we don't need. In the past this wasn't possible because the majority didn't have enough food, or any health care, or schools etc, etc. etc, the list is very long. You can knock the downsides all you want but the upsides make up of it many times over. What 'utopian' period of history would you have liked to live in? And explain how that period was better.

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

yep, the society we live in is full of sh1t, from birth people are encouraged to be greedy pathological monsters and good consumers. Human nature is multifaceted, it does not equate to greed. Do not accept what has been given to you by historical legacy and the environment around you. I encourage everyone to go out there and undermine the system, I know I am.

Any suggestions?

Mahatma coat

I think most of the improvements you would list are technological consumer devices
ys I am aware of the irony of typn this on a laptop with WiFi

but are we happier in our lives, do most of the people feel a sense of purpose, is there a sense of community?

what direction is the world going in, what is the goal ofthis revolution?

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

1. Work to live, dont live to work
2. Live within your means
3. Dont interact unnescesscerily with thsystem (I dont carry ID, My cars and phones are dummy registered, the house is in the GF's name)
4. Grow your own food
5. make your own Fuel
6. AVOID DEBT
7. I also avoid Social welfare

1. Couldn't agree more, it's what I do myself. Isn't it great that in this day and age we can do this.
2. Again I agree.
3. Can't imagine why that matters to anything, sounds like paranoia to me. Hopefully she never leaves you.
4. Good for you. I'm not very green fingered.
5. Not necessarily cheaper or efficient depending on what you doing and how you're doing it. Did people in history make their own fuel or buy it/barter it?
6. Good idea, did people throughout history have no debt? Or is it just easier to get now?
7. Well you pay tax to the state and now for the first time in history the state will use that money to help you if you lose your job or get injured etc and cannot work, sounds great.

6th

Mahatma coat wrote: »

as the moderator of the forum might I suggest that you have a cursory glance back through some of the threads where we have outlined these things, there have been discusions on this previously, lots of people have outlined how they are doing their small part.

But I suppose we could all do a recap for thebenefit of the newcomers

Thats very generous of you :rolleyes:

Seriously, if there was to be a ban on going over old ground or repeating questions this forum would have no posters

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Work to live, dont live to work
Live within your means
Dont interact unnescesscerily with thsystem
(I dont carry ID, My cars and phones are dummy registered, the house is in the GF's name)
Grow your own food
make your own Fuel
AVOID DEBT
I also avoid Social welfare

this does not mean that you have to live like St Kevin on the side of a feckin cliff eatin drybread and moss

but it does mean that you take a good look at how you live your life and how it can be scaled back

unfortunately its too late for a lot of people, but we can help the younger generations to avoid some of the pitfalls

Too late for alot of people? Seriously I mean at what age can we do nothing about how we live our lives? At 31 am I too old? Am I too intergrated into the machine?

By all means do what you can to give yourself the life you want to lead but when people start judging others then they better be prepared to have their own lives picked apart.

I think I might start a new thread on this.

jackiebrown

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

You're actually making a whole lot of sense. Your posts have really hit a nerve to be honest but in a positive way.

Our so called lives are a sham and our day's of free living have long since passed. Our day to day priorities are embarrasingly shallow. They usually involve us functioning as consumers or reacting to a television that indoctrinates us societally. We are so out of touch with our own nature that we have become uninformed lobotomized passivists. We've been born into bondage as an impersonable unit of measurment within an economy that ultimatley only serves those who are top of the monetary hill in the first place.

The amount of greed in this world absolutley sickens me. How we stand by and let it happen takes a bigger bite out my resolve every day.

I agree, this whole society we live in is based on an illusion, an illusion of freedom. No one is free, its freedom with stipulations. I look around and see unhappy/angry people everywhere. Not violent anger but an inner pissed off kind. We are capable, as a race, of so much good yet we always seem to get dragged back, boom/bust, peace/war, acceptance/hate. You look at things like the recent tiger raid. How can we justify punishing those who did it when its now common knowledge that the people who have been running the banks been doing it for years, i.e stealing. The most they should get charged with is kidnapping unless we prosecute the bankers too, which ain't gonna happen. Do we have the same curriculum in natinonal schools as private. Eton, for example employs debating. Good class for a member of parliament which is why tis never taught in public schools. 3/4 of Etonian students fees are paid by the tax payer. Why? Money's an illusion. Numbers on a screen. You can hold your illusion in your hand, you can feel its real but it disappears in the blink of an eye. The electronic chip in you card tells you how valuable you are to society. So, Mr X, you screwed over everyone you met, cheated on your wife, lost 100 people their jobs with your dodgy dealings, you've got €10 million bonus this year, well done. Mr Y, you work in a local homeless shelter, helped two junkies off drugs this year, love your wife and kids, always see the good in people, you can't pay your mortgage, tough. Its all bogus.

6th

jackiebrown wrote: »

I look around and see unhappy/angry people everywhere. Not violent anger but an inner pissed off kind. We are capable, as a race, of so much good yet we always seem to get dragged back, boom/bust, peace/war, acceptance/hate.

I look around and i see love, a sense of community (very evident here on Boards.ie), maybe I'm just lucky? I have a wife who I fell in love with when I was 15, I have 2 beautiful kids, I have a home, a job (for now ) I have my family around me? I have my health, I have good friends .... is all that an illusion? I made my life what it is and I'm happy with it. Maybe if things went wrong for me or I was lazy then I'd blame others for my situation?

jackiebrown wrote: »

You look at things like the recent tiger raid. How can we justify punishing those who did it when its now common knowledge that the people who have been running the banks been doing it for years, i.e stealing. The most they should get charged with is kidnapping unless we prosecute the bankers too, which ain't gonna happen.

Seriously?

jackiebrown wrote: »

Money's an illusion. Numbers on a screen. You can hold your illusion in your hand, you can feel its real but it disappears in the blink of an eye. The electronic chip in you card tells you how valuable you are to society. So, Mr X, you screwed over everyone you met, cheated on your wife, lost 100 people their jobs with your dodgy dealings, you've got €10 million bonus this year, well done. Mr Y, you work in a local homeless shelter, helped two junkies off drugs this year, love your wife and kids, always see the good in people, you can't pay your mortgage, tough. Its all bogus.

Yes because all rich people are evil and cheat on thewifes and poor people are kind hearted champions of the people.

How much cash do I need to have in my bank before I am considered a bad person? Do I need to be an employer before I'm viewed as the enemy?

Wheres the line folks?

meglome

jackiebrown wrote: »

I agree, this whole society we live in is based on an illusion, an illusion of freedom. No one is free, its freedom with stipulations. I look around and see unhappy/angry people everywhere. Not violent anger but an inner pissed off kind. We are capable, as a race, of so much good yet we always seem to get dragged back, boom/bust, peace/war, acceptance/hate. You look at things like the recent tiger raid. How can we justify punishing those who did it when its now common knowledge that the people who have been running the banks been doing it for years, i.e stealing. The most they should get charged with is kidnapping unless we prosecute the bankers too, which ain't gonna happen. Do we have the same curriculum in natinonal schools as private. Eton, for example employs debating. Good class for a member of parliament which is why tis never taught in public schools. 3/4 of Etonian students fees are paid by the tax payer. Why? Money's an illusion. Numbers on a screen. You can hold your illusion in your hand, you can feel its real but it disappears in the blink of an eye. The electronic chip in you card tells you how valuable you are to society. So, Mr X, you screwed over everyone you met, cheated on your wife, lost 100 people their jobs with your dodgy dealings, you've got €10 million bonus this year, well done. Mr Y, you work in a local homeless shelter, helped two junkies off drugs this year, love your wife and kids, always see the good in people, you can't pay your mortgage, tough. Its all bogus.

I smell a rereg.

jackiebrown

meglome wrote: »

I smell a rereg.

I'm not who you think I am.

jackiebrown

6th wrote: »

I look around and i see love, a sense of community (very evident here on Boards.ie), maybe I'm just lucky? I have a wife who I fell in love with when I was 15, I have 2 beautiful kids, I have a home, a job (for now ) I have my family around me? I have my health, I have good friends .... is all that an illusion? I made my life what it is and I'm happy with it. Maybe if things went wrong for me or I was lazy then I'd blame others for my situation?



Seriously?



Yes because all rich people are evil and cheat on thewifes and poor people are kind hearted champions of the people.

How much cash do I need to have in my bank before I am considered a bad person? Do I need to be an employer before I'm viewed as the enemy?

Wheres the line folks?

I'm serious. Although I do believe they should be punished, but it cant be one rule for them and another for everyone else. Do you think the bankers should be allowed to just put theirs hands up say "fair cop" and ride into the sunset.

I'm also glad to see how things have been going well for you 6th, things seem to have fallen into place nicely, maybe not as easy for other people tho. All the things you cherish are no doubt deserved but the point I make is not how much money you have in your bank account (I should have made this clearer, slightly rant-ish) but what you do with it. If it hurts noone then hey, make as much as you want. But the fact is that the top 1% get rich through suffering and inequality.

meglome

meglome wrote: »

We live in a very consumer driven society there's no doubt, where too much is still not always considered enough. But ask yourself why this is so? I would suggest that it's because we have things so easy in historical terms that we can be easily taught to want even what we don't need. In the past this wasn't possible because the majority didn't have enough food, or any health care, or schools etc, etc. etc, the list is very long. You can knock the downsides all you want but the upsides make up of it many times over. What 'utopian' period of history would you have liked to live in? And explain how that period was better.

So JackieBrown wanna answer this for me?

jackiebrown

meglome wrote: »

So JackieBrown wanna answer this for me?

I don't disagree with any of this. I don't think I ever said things used to be better back in the day, correct me if I'm wrong.

6th

meglome wrote: »

I smell a rereg.

No backseat modding please.

jackiebrown wrote: »

I'm not who you think I am.

jackie, Pm me about this before you post on here again.

meglome

jackiebrown wrote: »

I don't disagree with any of this. I don't think I ever said things used to be better back in the day, correct me if I'm wrong.

Fair enough, I just wondered. And as for the bankers they worked (mostly) within the rules set for them by governments. So we should be asking our government why they didn't stop this. No that the bankers should get off scot free.