Zeitgeist

jackiebrown

meglome wrote: »

Fair enough, I just wondered. And as for the bankers they worked (mostly) within the rules set for them by governments. So we should be asking our government why they didn't stop this. No that the bankers should get off scot free.

They worked within the rules set out by the financial regulator, which like the drinks industry is almost completely self-regulated.

These men stole €7 million using force=illegal. These men stole BILLIONS using loopholes=legal. It's not a legal framework, its a colinder.

Martyr

I don't know whether to laugh or not here as you're taking absolute nonsense, we had never had it better in recorded history.

Who is "we"? people in ireland? most people in ireland are in debt and
unemployed.
YOU might have it "better" but its nothing but arrogance to assume everyone
in the world is better off living with a monetary system.

2 thirds of the worlds population are either under fed or starving to death,
thats over 3 billion people, most of those living on less than $2 a day.

we have an increasing problem with human trafficing for exploitation and nobody anywhere seems to give a damn.slavery is still alive and well today,
there are many problems caused by money most of us are quite happy to ignore as long as we have enough of it to survive.

we can easily forget about it all.

the rich might have been stealing from the poor since egyptian times, but that
doesn't mean everyone in the world lived in a class system of rich/poor.

this class system has been forced upon the world to accept as being a "better" way of life.

there were some 80 million native americans before europeans almost wiped them out, those people didn't care about money or wealth before that.

they had clean food, fresh water every day and it was completely free.
the europeans came with their superior advanced civilisation and changed that :rolleyes:

in brazil along the xingu river, indigenous people are being forced into this "better life" we all know of, because rich bankers want to build a hydro electric dam, but they must first destroy the forest people are living in.

traditionally, xingu people simply lived FREE in the amazon forests, just as generations before them did, probably for hundreds of years.

That is situation, TODAY, where the worlds evironment is being destroyed for
a "better life" of working and paying taxes to the rich.

Then why dont you? I get sick of people preaching and saying what is wrong with the world yet they are living the same life.

because this is the life i've been given, i didn't choose to grow up
being brainwashed by the tv or by people telling me "we've never had it better" which is just the lie you've been fed your entire life.

We're told what to eat, what to drink, what to wear..and its really a pathetic existence, being told how to run every aspect of your life.

Do you work? Do you pay tax? Are you availing of any money from the government?

You're sitting at a computer obviously. Do you buy produce? Do you buy "treats" for yourself i.e. music, magazines etc? Do you go to the cinema?

yes, i do work and pay taxes, i think about 20 cents goes into my pocket from
every euro i earn, the rest is given to the government who squander it on corrupt bankers stealing from the poor or taking holidays abroad.

I have no choice but to pay it, because i'm threatened with "the law" of the land - going to jail..etc or made to feel guilty if i don't pay them.
but its perfectly fine for my "leaders" to use that money for helicopter rides to horse races or trips out of the country...no problem at all! :rolleyes:

the law which always seems to work in favour of the evil and corrupt rather
than the tax-paying citizens it claims to protect - the real people running the country.

yes, i buy produce from shops, again i have no choice.
you think i like working just to go to tesco or dunnes to get ripped off
by more taxes?

if someone said to me, "if you give all this up, your computer,internet,hot showers,tv,music,..everything you know as being modern"..yada yada to live free for the rest of your life with fresh clean water and food, never have to worry about working, just look after the land, i'd be insane not to say, yes.

getting my food from a forest instead of tescos or dunnes, never have to work or pay taxes again..why would i not?

that might seem like nonsense to you, but thats the way life should be, shouldn't it??
or is it really about working your whole damn life and having nothing at the
end of it? except maybe a house worth half what you paid for it.

Seriously, lead by example and come back to me when you've actually made some real changes in your own lives.

"lead by example" - how childish.
i never said to anyone here "you should be living this way" - thats what you've brainwashed into thinking your whole life but you never challenged that, did you?

go to school, get education, get a job, get a car, get mortgage on house, get married, have kids.
work, pay taxes, pay your bills, more work.. borrow money, eat this, drink that, wear this - pretty sad having a box dominate everything you do.

Yes because all rich people are evil and cheat on thewifes and poor people are kind hearted champions of the people.

How much cash do I need to have in my bank before I am considered a bad person? Do I need to be an employer before I'm viewed as the enemy?

Wheres the line folks?

obviously you take it personal any attack on rich people.

i don't have anything against anyone with money, i just don't believe a monetary system is making everyone "better off"

i believe most of us are worse off.
we just live an illusion where we think we're better off, but we're really not at all.

6th

Life is sweet.

Martyr

well as long as you're happy 6th, thats what matters.
thats the "free thinking"

life is sweet for over 3 billion people can't feed themselves anymore because of a monetary system.

6th

Martyr wrote: »

if someone said to me, "if you give all this up, your computer,internet,hot showers,tv,music,..everything you know as being modern"..yada yada to live free for the rest of your life with fresh clean water and food, never have to worry about working, just look after the land, i'd be insane not to say, yes.

See I just think people will complain unless its handed to them. Not directed at you specifically but people in general.

People are in debt because they are greedy (just like the fat cats). I have a mortgage because I wanted a house. I wanted a car so I saved and bought one I could afford to buy outright. If I cant afford something I dont buy it but alot of people get car loans, loans for holidays etc.

I dont touch my kids childrens allowance because thats for their education - I dont want them having to borrow. I got a job when I was 15 because I want to be able to pay my way. Thats how I choose to live.

6th

Martyr wrote: »

well as long as you're happy 6th, thats what matters.
thats the "free thinking"

life is sweet for over 3 billion people can't feed themselves anymore because of a monetary system.

Its not the monetary system alone.

People are the problem and the solution.

There are people with money who choose to help, there are those that dont.

Its about people. Always.

jackiebrown

6th wrote: »

Life is sweet.

Agreed. Let's just not think of the genocide in Rwanda, the poverty and caste systems in India, the starving in Ethiopia, corruption in our backyard, wars over resources. Yeah when we black out all that and more life is indeed sweet. As long as my babies ok I dont care if 1000 die each day from malnutrition and dehydration, why don't they stop being lazy, get a job and get down Tesco.

Sofa_King Good

There needs to be distinction drawn between the innocent and helpless people/victims who starve and the people/criminals who are the cause.

6th

jackiebrown wrote: »

Agreed. Let's just not think of the genocide in Rwanda, the poverty and caste systems in India, the starving in Ethiopia, corruption in our backyard, wars over resources. Yeah when we black out all that and more life is indeed sweet. As long as my babies ok I dont care if 1000 die each day from malnutrition and dehydration, why don't they stop being lazy, get a job and get down Tesco.

Se I'm glad this was mentioned. I asked earlier what people are doing about all this, the people who complain that its going on?

I know I do my bit to look after those close to me, to do work in my communities. I've worked with kids from difficult backgrounds, done voluntery work etc.

Tell me what you think I should be doing.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

.

Do you work? Do you pay tax? Are you availing of any money from the government? You're sitting at a computer obviously. Do you buy produce? Do you buy "treats" for yourself i.e. music, magazines etc? Do you go to the cinema?



Same questions as above for you.

Seriously, lead by example and come back to me when you've actually made some real changes in your own lives.

I pay little tax;) I will be once I get my degree in film, I'm a leader and create. i don't and will never follow the system by these greedy lizards.

I have made huge changes.

• From restoring peace in my family
• To changing myself.
• To stop watching T.V
• I use non flourde toothpaste
• I have taken up swimming and gym (twice a week)
• I also make sure I get enough sunshine and daylight /fresh air as I can, as I know how this greatly benifets spiritual and mental health
• I also have taken up a large amount of my time, studying the world, rather than paying attention to T.V and entertainment.eating healthily.

Some of the things I do, in relation to food

1. I look at where is was grown, I read labels.
2. Look at if It's GM, free of artifical flavorings, sodium glutatmite.
3. What colour are they ( I know which colours benifet health differently)
4. I cut out most processed food, bread, soft drinks, baked food, sugar, pre packed food.
5. Take multi vitamins from health stores only.
6. I don't drink tea or coffee or stimulants
7. I limit alcohol one month.

I've also, have improved, vastly in health and awareness, that now if I read junk newspapers my brain becomes neoritic again. So yeah sounds nuts, but it's true, I've grown more and more less interested in the gossip daily of the world. If I do read any newspapers. it's the Sunday times, Irish times or Sunday business post or my local newspapers. Just to keep track of going ons of the world.


These changes have made huge impact to my extrasensory abilities. It has done other things I will not need to say on this thread.

mysterious

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

There needs to be distinction drawn between the innocent and helpless people/victims who starve and the people/criminals who are the cause.

This current reality, is the reason why there is criminality. We are not perfect beings, but there would be far more balance, if there was less greed and less unbalance in the world.

I know this, because, there is 3 things everyone on this planet want subcounciously, conciously, uncouncioulsy
Be loved, to love, and be loving.

The other aspect is freedom, if you give people freedom, there would also be far less terrorism in the world.


Humanity on a soul level, strives, for love, freedom, experience.

6th

mysterious wrote: »

I pay little tax;) I will be once I get my degree in film, I'm a leader and create. i don't and will never follow the system by these greedy lizards.

I have made huge changes.

• From restoring peace in my family
• To changing myself.
• To stop watching T.V
• I use non flourde toothpaste
• I have taken up swimming and gym (twice a week)
• I also make sure I get enough sunshine and daylight /fresh air as I can, as I know how this greatly benifets spiritual and mental health
• I also have taken up a large amount of my time, studying the world, rather than paying attention to T.V and entertainment.eating healthily.

Some of the things I do, in relation to food

1. I look at where is was grown, I read labels.
2. Look at if It's GM, free of artifical flavorings, sodium glutatmite.
3. What colour are they ( I know which colours benifet health differently)
4. I cut out most processed food, bread, soft drinks, baked food, sugar, pre packed food.
5. Take multi vitamins from health stores only.
6. I don't drink tea or coffee or stimulants
7. I limit alcohol one month.

I've also, have improved, vastly in health and awareness, that now if I read junk newspapers my brain becomes neoritic again. So yeah sounds nuts, but it's true, I've grown more and more less interested in the gossip daily of the world. If I do read any newspapers. it's the Sunday times, Irish times or Sunday business post or my local newspapers. Just to keep track of going ons of the world.


These changes have made huge impact to my extrasensory abilities. It has done other things I will not need to say on this thread.

All thee things are changes that benefit you, yes?

mysterious

6th wrote: »

All thee things are changes that benefit you, yes?

To benifet me, to help me give to the world;)

Some people have to be strong, to lead other's who are weak. I'm a believer in one who changes, for others to follow examples. I believe if you benifet yourself with good intentions, then these actions are projected to others in the same way.

6th

mysterious wrote: »

To benifet me, to help me give to the world;)

Whens that starting? And what do you intend to do?

Btw, I might surprise you with just how much involvement I have in this area

mysterious

6th wrote: »

Whens that starting? And what do you intend to do?

Btw, I might surprise you with just how much involvement I have in this area

Well I started when I was born;) The obstacles and experiences led me to remember my purpose.

The isolation, led me to realise what was there
The pains led me to remember the bonds that were always there
The hate led me to realise the love that was always there
The separation of this existence, led me to realise it was all one, at one time.
The challenges led me to realise, that all it is to do is to push for completion no matter the hurdles.

Think of this however you want to interpret it.
You tap into things too, I can gather that, would it be occult?


What am I going to do, I've created examples in every place i go. I understand what flows through and out of me to the world. The impact I'm to make would be via, physical examples, via documentaries, stories, poetry, film and connecting to others via this way.

So others can see the art.

6th

mysterious wrote: »

Well I started when I was born;) The obstacles and experiences led me to remember my purpose.

The isolation, led me to realise what was there
The pains led me to remember the bonds that were always there
The hate led me to realise the love that was always there
The separation of this existence, led me to realise it was all one, at one time.
The challenges led me to realise, that all it is to do is to push for completion no matter the hurdles.

Think of this however you want to interpret it.
You tap into things too, I can gather that, would it be occult?


What am I going to do, I've created examples in every place i go. I understand what flows through and out of me to the world. The impact I'm to make would be via, physical examples, via documentaries, stories, poetry, film and connecting to others via this way.

So others can see the art.

I still dont understand what it is you are going to do to make the world a better place?

Art I get, I'm a sculptor.

Do you have a blog where people can view your " documentaries, stories, poetry, film"?

Capt'n Midnight

mysterious wrote:

I have made huge changes.

• I have taken up swimming and gym (twice a week)

Some of the things I do, in relation to food

1. I look at where is was grown, I read labels.
2. What colour are they ( I know which colours benifet health differently)
3. I limit alcohol one month.

These changes have made huge impact to my extrasensory abilities. It has done other things I will not need to say on this thread.

Check if the swimming pool is filled with fluoridated water

colours ?
bit confused about this you mean carotenoids and stuff , don't forget that too much of the fat soluble ones is bad for you.

mysterious

6th wrote: »

I still dont understand what it is you are going to do to make the world a better place?

Art I get, I'm a sculptor.

Do you have a blog where people can view your " documentaries, stories, poetry, film"?

I'm going to create one soon, but I'm a bit apprehensive about exposing it or not as me or anyomouns.

Art, is something you create. That is what I mean by art.

By showing examples of what we have all forgotten. We have lost touch thats all. It's not about perfection. Completion is not the purpose of humanity, the purpose of humanity, is to become of aware of you in this experience of time.

I'm not just going to do, or set myself out to do, i was always was, I always was doing, I always am and I always will be.

mysterious

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Check if the swimming pool is filled with fluoridated water

colours ?
bit confused about this you mean carotenoids and stuff , don't forget that too much of the fat soluble ones is bad for you.

I know, but the exercise is important, and helps my wellbeing. Thus I also wash myself after swimming to get chloirine off.

Colouring of food also explains whats in it, and what vitamins and minerals make it up to give the colour.

For example beta carotene, is orange, and has vitamin A in it. So the old saying goes, an diet rich in orange food is good for the eyes.

jackiebrown

6th wrote: »

Se I'm glad this was mentioned. I asked earlier what people are doing about all this, the people who complain that its going on?

I know I do my bit to look after those close to me, to do work in my communities. I've worked with kids from difficult backgrounds, done voluntery work etc.

Tell me what you think I should be doing.

I wouldn't be so arrogant as to tell you what to do. As long as you don't infringe on peoples human rights you can live as you want. Its when you say that people are in bad situations because they are lazy or "Life is sweet" lacks empathy towards people, who through no fault of their own, have to watch their children starve to death everyday because its not profitable to feed them. I'm here to meet people of like minds then maybe, just maybe we can work out together how best to combat these issues. I dont want to get into whose right and wrong, it's a distraction from what we should all be thinking , Is there a problem and can we do something about it?

6th

jackiebrown wrote: »

I wouldn't be so arrogant as to tell you what to do.

I wouldnt take it as being arrogant, I'm simply asking for pointers as to what way you think I (and others like me) can make a difference.

jackiebrown

6th wrote: »

I wouldnt take it as being arrogant, I'm simply asking for pointers as to what way you think I (and others like me) can make a difference.

Well its seems that you're quite happy with the situation at the moment so any move from the staus quo may not be of benefit to you.

6th

Its not about benefitting me, its about changing the world?

Veni Vedi Vici

6th wrote: »

Its not about benefitting me, its about changing the world?

Gemeinshaft, gesellschaft.

6th

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

Gemeinshaft, gesellschaft.

You could have fleshed that out a bit but I get what you mean.

Veni Vedi Vici

Just a fleating sociological reference to the individual versus collectivity. I felt it was relevant.

More info here...

jackiebrown

6th wrote: »

Its not about benefitting me, its about changing the world?

Ok 6th, here goes for what its worth <inhales>

We live in a world full of inequality, where through a mere coincidence i.e place of birth, religious background, race etc groups of people suffer proportionally more than they need to, simply because of greed. This is what I see, I can't wear rose tinted specticles and just pretend everythings fine cause that would be a lie. Do I have answers? Not one 6th and believe me I wish I did. Maybe I'm just not smart enough.

I see a world based on divisions, simple things, unimportant things yet they seem to dominate our existance. "That person is also a christian but has statues of Jesus which he prays to. Lets kill him." And vice versa. "That person is Pakistani and that person is indian", dangerously different. These differences are supported by people in power because as we know, power corrupts and any meeting of minds on any matter with result in dissolving of that power which will be contested at all costs, no matter how many lives are destroyed doing it.

Now the only way we can do this is to:

1. Power to the people (Why not have a government run like boards. All sections and threads relative to the running of the country, if your intrested then comment, if not dont complain and if when you dont like the outcome then tough cause you actually DID have a chance to input, polls could be attached to every thread)

2. Remove money (tricky I grant you) Its possibly the biggest prob we have. We have to stop judging our self worth on how much we bring home each week. First question you hear when out "So what do you do for a living". I'm employed and dont earn very much but I live OK and not embarrased by what I do but some people would be. Why? A doctor will still be a doctor, a sculpter will still sculpt.

3. Restrict religious laws from society: Make believe should not be taught in schools. Only facts.

4. Education: 8hrs a day, five days a week stuck in a dingy classroom when you 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 years old is a disgrace. There should be outside activities as much as classed based i.e sculpture, carpentry, fishing, farming etc. Not every person is suited to being idle at that age.

5. Emphasise similarities: Your not born a racist, you're grown.

6. Make a peace pact with the rest of the world.

There's prob more but I'm under time pressure here. Do you think any of this is achieveable or just a dream? What are you willing to sacrafice?

Veni Vedi Vici

Great post jackiebrown.

6th wrote: »

I look around and i see love, a sense of community (very evident here on Boards.ie), maybe I'm just lucky? I have a wife who I fell in love with when I was 15, I have 2 beautiful kids, I have a home, a job (for now ) I have my family around me? I have my health, I have good friends .... is all that an illusion? I made my life what it is and I'm happy with it. Maybe if things went wrong for me or I was lazy then I'd blame others for my situation?

I have a problem however with this post (the post, not the poster. 6th after all is my new favorite mod).

You see a 'love' and a 'sense of community' that is confined to your locus. I think its very subjective and a prime example of psychological compartmentalization. What does the starving disease ridden Africans of the third world see? What do the massacred, tortured and oppressed individuals of Burma and Tibet see? What do sentient animals gathered to be culled as foodstuffs see?

Your post implies (and I'm sure you didn't actually mean this) that the anthiseses of the 'love' you described is only an issue when it affects you. This comes across as selfish (the post, not you).

The post also implies that the reprimanding (or 'blaming' as you put it) is indicative of a person who is lazy. Since when did caring become synonymous with apathy?

To answer your question: no, its not illusory but it suggests extreme subjectivity.

uncleoswald

jackiebrown wrote: »

We live in a world full of inequality, where through a mere coincidence i.e place of birth, religious background, race etc groups of people suffer proportionally more than they need to, simply because of greed.

Not simply because of greed because that is, er, overly simplistic. Its also because like you already said place of birth, and background, and dumb luck, and incompetence.

Your points:

1."Power to the people" Would never work. You'd have those that complain the loudest getting what they wanted. The Government would be just like the Joe Duffy show.

2. "Remove money" Ah money, the root of all evil. Except it isn't is it? And I notice you don't put forward another solution. If you ban money then someone will simply give the doctor (who might not be the smartest in the world as where would be the incentive for the brighter people in the world to become doctors when the can just lounge around and sculpt?) a few extra chickens so they get the better treatment. Before money we had bartering and there will always be some way for people to judge the service they provide.

3."Restrict religious laws from society." Well as a firm non believer I sympathies but that is hardly a form of equality. The thing that most confuses me about your arguments is that you say things like "differences are supported by people in power because as we know, power corrupts" but most of the time we hear that the government is tryng to suppress individuality and promote conformity as its easier to control a placid conformed populace. Also, inforcement of this will leads to conflicts with your point number 6.

4. "Education." While I believe there are many flaws in the education system, the competitive result based nature means that at times schools are forced to think more of their own curve rather then what is best for an individual child, I fail to see how teaching fishing is going to improve matters.

5. "Emphasise similarities" But to claim that this isn't been pushed by most governments is ridiculous. And they would do it a lot more except the "PC gone mad" and "nanny state" merchants come out in force whenever it happens.

6. "Make a peace pact with the rest of the world." How nice. Just a little simplistic though no? Take the current developments in Nothern Ireland, huge efforts have been made on both sides, and the British, Irish and American governments to bring peace to the area and then a few mindless idiots go and do that to put it all in danger?

Veni Vedi Vici
I think its very subjective and a prime example of psychological compartmentalization. What does the starving disease ridden Africans of the third world see? What do the massacred, tortured and oppressed individuals of Burma and Tibet see? What do sentient animals gathered to be culled as foodstuffs see?
Your post implies (and I'm sure you didn't actually mean this) that the anthiseses of the 'love' you described is only an issue when it affects you. This comes across as selfish (the post, not you).

But most of this tread has been about the individual so I don't for a second thing its a bad thing for 6th admit to looking around and finding that he is indeed very happy in his life and to see that there is indeed good in the world. He didn't say there was only good, he just choses to take in the good as much as possible. You might think 6th living his life as happily and best he can is an insult to the suffering people of the world but do you really think they would give a rats ass if he removed himself from society and burned his IDs and money? Infact they might see it as a little selfish and self-satisfied no?

The fact is there are far more people living in the "system" doing good around the world then there are living outside the "system" and moaning about everything.

6th

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

I have a problem however with this post (the post, not the poster. 6th after all is my new favorite mod).

You see a 'love' and a 'sense of community' that is confined to your locus. I think its very subjective and a prime example of psychological compartmentalization. What does the starving disease ridden Africans of the third world see? What do the massacred, tortured and oppressed individuals of Burma and Tibet see? What do sentient animals gathered to be culled as foodstuffs see?

Your post implies (and I'm sure you didn't actually mean this) that the anthiseses of the 'love' you described is only an issue when it affects you. This comes across as selfish (the post, not you).

The post also implies that the reprimanding (or 'blaming' as you put it) is indicative of a person who is lazy. Since when did caring become synonymous with apathy?

To answer your question: no, its not illusory but it suggests extreme subjectivity.

I am selfish, we all are, so you're right. It appears that no one hear is taking things global. What I am doing is taking care of my direct environment and the people in it. I dont blame everyone who is in a bad way but I do think that so many people can do things about their situations but dont. Those people are the folks who vote in a government and then complain, the people who live above their means and get annoyed when they have to face the consequences. The people who will complain how bad things are and do nothing to make changes.

So far no one on here has said what they are doing to make changes, changes that arent selfish.

On a spiritual level I do more on a larger scale but this isnt the forum for that stuff.

6th

A truely great post jb.

jackiebrown wrote: »

We live in a world full of inequality, where through a mere coincidence i.e place of birth, religious background, race etc groups of people suffer proportionally more than they need to, simply because of greed. This is what I see, I can't wear rose tinted specticles and just pretend everythings fine cause that would be a lie.

Very true. I try to live my life without judging others based on race, religion or social standing. I also teach my kids to do the same.

jackiebrown wrote: »

Do I have answers? Not one 6th and believe me I wish I did. Maybe I'm just not smart enough.

I'm the same. I can't change things on a large scale but I'll do my best with what I have.

jackiebrown wrote: »

I see a world based on divisions, simple things, unimportant things yet they seem to dominate our existance. "That person is also a christian but has statues of Jesus which he prays to. Lets kill him." And vice versa. "That person is Pakistani and that person is indian", dangerously different. These differences are supported by people in power because as we know, power corrupts and any meeting of minds on any matter with result in dissolving of that power which will be contested at all costs, no matter how many lives are destroyed doing it.

Now the only way we can do this is to:

1. Power to the people (Why not have a government run like boards. All sections and threads relative to the running of the country, if your intrested then comment, if not dont complain and if when you dont like the outcome then tough cause you actually DID have a chance to input, polls could be attached to every thread)

Boards.ie is privately owned. If they decided to to start changing things there is nothing we could do about it. Anyway the problem with Power to the People is largely the people themselves. The majority like to complain and sit on their asses.

2. Remove money (tricky I grant you) Its possibly the biggest prob we have. We have to stop judging our self worth on how much we bring home each week. First question you hear when out "So what do you do for a living". I'm employed and dont earn very much but I live OK and not embarrased by what I do but some people would be. Why? A doctor will still be a doctor, a sculpter will still sculpt.

Asking what someone does for a living is a coomon question and one built into us (when it comes to finding a prospective partner) because we look for security. Its the equivelent of doing for the lion with the largest main.

3. Restrict religious laws from society: Make believe should not be taught in schools. Only facts.

It should be an opinion all right but banning it would do a lot of harm. Despite many religious groups being crap belief itself is one of the most powerful forces in the world. Its a good thing and a bad thing, what people will do in the name of their beliefs is amazing - we should use that to promote acceptance and harmony.

4. Education: 8hrs a day, five days a week stuck in a dingy classroom when you 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 years old is a disgrace. There should be outside activities as much as classed based i.e sculpture, carpentry, fishing, farming etc. Not every person is suited to being idle at that age.

People can make a difference on a local level with this. I have a daughter in playschool and they get out all the time, rain or shine. We (as parents) chose a school locally where she can walk to school and not spend all day travelling. Its not the best school but it will mean more time with family and her friends will be local - its all about community.

5. Emphasise similarities: Your not born a racist, you're grown.

True. If you have children then raise them right.

6. Make a peace pact with the rest of the world.

A nice idea but so many obsticales. One step at a time I suppose.

There's prob more but I'm under time pressure here. Do you think any of this is achieveable or just a dream? What are you willing to sacrafice?

Going by my answers I dont think I need to sacrifice? They are mostly achievable and only really take alot of people making really small changes.

jackiebrown

uncleoswald wrote: »

1."Power to the people" Would never work. You'd have those that complain the loudest getting what they wanted. The Government would be just like the Joe Duffy show.

You're right its oversimplistic. I didn't think I written a complete thesis on a new society. Maybe I will.

1. Maybe if we just had a complete free for all then we'd have what you imagine. It's more to do with fastracking to a source of change, one which the participant can be directly involved in. There should be guidelines to the use of this resource.

2. "Remove money" Ah money, the root of all evil. Except it isn't is it? And I notice you don't put forward another solution. If you ban money then someone will simply give the doctor (who might not be the smartest in the world as where would be the insentive for the brighter people in the world to become doctors when the can just lounge around and sculpt?) a few extra chickens so they get the better treatment. Before money we had bartering and there will always be some way for people to judge the service they provide.

Money is the source of power. Power is the root of all evil.

3."Restrict religious laws from society." Well as a firm non believer I sympathies but that is hardly a form of equality. The thing that most confuses me about your arguments is that you say things like "differences are supported by people in power because as we know, power corrupts" but most of the time we hear that the government is tryng to suppress individuality and promote conformity as its easier to control a placid conformed populace.

Well you're definately not understanding me here. I said religious laws. Outside of school and in their own time they can follow whichever path in life. I dont want my leader saying that "god" decides his foreign policy. One rule for all, Freedom.

4. "Education." While I believe there are many flaws in the education system, the competitive result based nature means that at times schools are forced to think more of their own curve rather then what is best for an individual child, I fail to see how teaching fishing is going to improve matters.

Do you understand why there are so many disallusioned young people in this country? Do you understand why so much thuggary and crime? Read above quote.

5. "Emphasise similarities" But to claim that this isn't been pushed by most governments is ridiculous. And they would do it a lot more except the "PC gone mad" and "nanny state" merchants come out in force whenever it happens.

I'm talking about equality, not prejudice. If you don't see this as a big problem then I'm sorry, but your wrong

6. "Make a peace pact with the rest of the world." How nice. Just a little simplistic though no? Take the current developments in Nothern Ireland, huge efforts have been made on both sides, and the British, Irish and American governments to bring peace to the area and then a few mindless idiots go and do that to put it all in danger?

"Dear distinguished leaders from across our world. The people of Ireland and I welcome you here for a defining moment in our history. We believe that with the almost universal acceptane of the Global Peace charter, with the unfortunate refusal of Zimbabwe. How'd have thought President Mugabe would still be around at 132 years old. Well Mugabe as the charter says, You dont f*** with us we wont f*** with you". What do you think, too simplistic?

Sofa_King Good

Not having a go but you said you try not to judge people which is good but the problem is that everyone can only see the world through their own eyes and even extremists consider their position rational.

When you said that people only borrow because they are greedy that was a major generalisation and judgement call.

What of the single mother who borrows from the local loan shark to give her children a better christmas?
Or the low-income family who borrow to send their children to a better school? Or provide a sick child with the treatment of the rich. Umpteen different reasons, their not all to upgrade to a sports car they can't afford.

This is not a bitter poverty stricken disassociated rant. I am myself debt free, own my own apartment in Sweden where I am soon to start in the family business.

You sound like you live a good family life and I respect that. Its just that everyone thinks that they don't pass unfair judgement when everyone does, especially me.

uncleoswald

jackiebrown wrote: »

You're right its oversimplistic. I didn't think I written a complete thesis on a new society. Maybe I will.

1. Maybe if we just had a complete free for all then we'd have what you imagine. It's more to do with fastracking to a source of change, one which the participant can be directly involved in. There should be guidelines to the use of this resource.

Yes but that will just get more and more complicated until you have something that looks suspiciously like a democratic government. It ain't perfect but its the best we have. The best we can do is police it and make sure no one has too much power, but enough power to get things done.

Money is the source of power. Power is the root of all evil.

Yes absolute power currupts but surely you are not suggesting that anyone with power wields it like an evil doer from a comic book? So are you suggesting that no one can have any power?

Well you're definately not understanding me here. I said religious laws. Outside of school and in their own time they can follow whichever path in life. I dont want my leader saying that "god" decides his foreign policy. One rule for all, Freedom.

Like I said I agree but just try implementing that. From your own point of view with the upbringing you've had and the secular life you live it may seem easy and you might shudder when you hear Tony Blaire et all speak like that but they are only the tip of the iceberg. In most countries at this time implementation of such laws would lead to violence and maybe even civil war. People would see it as encroaching their freedoms and they would have a god given right/duty to fight for what they believed. Like I said before, that doesn't really fit with your point no 6.

Do you understand why there are so many disallusioned young people in this country? Do you understand why so much thuggary and crime? Read above quote.

Well I think its a number of factors. Are you saying its because they are not fishing enough?

I'm talking about equality, not prejudice. If you don't see this as a big problem then I'm sorry, but your wrong

Of course it is a problem but its a problem thats been worked on. And your original point did seem to be refering to prejudice, not equality. I definitly don't think governments promote racism for their own benift as you seem to suggest here:

These differences are supported by people in power

How would that even work to their benifit?

"Dear distinguished leaders from across our world. The people of Ireland and I welcome you here for a defining moment in our history. We believe that with the almost universal acceptane of the Global Peace charter, with the unfortunate refusal of Zimbabwe. How'd have thought President Mugabe would still be around at 132 years old. Well Mugabe as the charter says, You dont f*** with us we wont f*** with you". What do you think, too simplistic?

Er yeah. I really don't know what you mean here. Are you suggesting we invade Zimbabwe? Thats one way to make a peace pact with the world I guess...

Mahatma coat

may I subscribe to your Blog And/or newsletter good sir

Secularisation of society was a cornerstone of Republics and also one of the first casulties of most nation building exercises

Education is key alright, some of the schools over her also have gardens where the kids lern about farmin animals & growin stuff, they also go to the beach ina lot of the schools and learn about aquaculture, they have science and debting clubs and generally offer a more 'well rounded' education process not all the schools do tho and you can tell which type of school the kid is atending fierce quick in a conversation

Money is not something we can get rid of tho, we just need to re evaluate the concept of value.

jackiebrown

Thanks for the discussion guys. Opened my eyes a bit. KUTGW

Sofa: I'm not sure if you were talking to me in your post. If so, you've misunderstood. If not, I've misunderstood.

6th: Your doing more than me, which you guessed anyway. I do think we are moving in the right direction and your right, lots of people making small changes can make a differance. I'd just like to give it a kick up the ass that's all.:D

Uncleswold: No, I'm not suggesting we invade Zimbabwe. It's a dramatisation of possible future events which...........never mind.

Peace.

Veni Vedi Vici

I agree with much of what's been posted thus far since each post is exlempary of the right intentions even we differ by the means. It seems we have distinct schools of thought:

Classes:

1. Those who are not aware or simply do not care.
2. Those who focus on the welfare their immediate but are aware of our shortcomings as a global community.
3. Those who focus on both their immediate, national and global welfare.

6th has asked directly what is it that we do to sustain and expand on this welfare? Its a valid question. I find personally (and I suspect that many of the most you shall too) that I think and discuss far more than I would like to act. These threads rarely lead to action.

Is there any possibility at all, under the revamped modding approach that we can nail down between us a conpiracy that we all agree on. As on online community I feel we have the correct balance of CT'ers and skeptics to isolate a commendable theory and thereafter begin to collaborate and actually take some action.

Bare in mind that our findings would eventually be presented to the public so I suggest that we leave extremist conspiracy theories at the door (no anti-semitics or lizard hunters need apply)

Any suggestions anyone? This may need a poll.

jackiebrown

Me again. Backed out a bit too soon I think. Uncles made some decent points and I'd like to aproach them.

Yes but that will just get more and more complicated until you have something that looks suspiciously like a democratic government. It ain't perfect but its the best we have. The best we can do is police it and make sure no one has too much power, but enough power to get things done.

My Problem is that pretty much everything wrong in society today stems from an abuse of power and bad leadership. Now I've worked in positions of responsibility before in retail management. Ok, it's not running the world but shows that to get the best out of the people around you then you have to lead by example. What has our last government shown us, only how to run at country at 200 miles an hour and breakdown. The amount of money wasted was amazing and corruption unrestrained. I've had enough.

Yes absolute power currupts but surely you are not suggesting that anyone with power wields it like an evil doer from a comic book? So are you suggesting that no one can have any power?

The fact that every problem in society is due to some leader being drunk on power, then yes, idont believe people should have the power. It should be diluted. To test anything new you first need to do it on a small scale. Ireland is perfect. I think we could be a shining example of how to build a society based on ethics.

Like I said I agree but just try implementing that. From your own point of view with the upbringing you've had and the secular life you live it may seem easy and you might shudder when you hear Tony Blaire et all speak like that but they are only the tip of the iceberg. In most countries at this time implementation of such laws would lead to violence and maybe even civil war. People would see it as encroaching their freedoms and they would have a god given right/duty to fight for what they believed. Like I said before, that doesn't really fit with your point no 6.

Well at least we agree on something:D. Seriously I hear ye. The uproar would be incredable. But we agree. A lot of other people agree. We feel it has no place in the classroom. Why should we just accept it then?

Well I think its a number of factors. Are you saying its because they are not fishing enough?

Not every child is suited to sitting in class all the time, and I think that actually learning about things in the real world is better than a textbook. The greatest painter of his generation couldv'e gone through life never touching a paint brush. I think instead of teaching every kid the same, we need to give them a wide veriety of learning scenarios and focus in on their strengths. Only way to do this is computers. Each curiculum has interactive coursework and each child works at their own pace. The stats will be available to the teacher. If someones getting stuck it'll show up on their screen where they can support and encourage. Graphs will show their abilities in all areas. If someone is showing ahead in maths. Fastrack them. If in art, focus in.

How would that even work to their benifit?

Ye I'm all over the place a bit, sorry. What I meant was in other countries i.e middle east, North Korea etc. The differences in these countries (most) are actively promoted by their governmants.

jackiebrown

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

I agree with much of what's been posted thus far since each post is exlempary of the right intentions even we differ by the means. It seems we have distinct schools of thought:

Classes:

1. Those who are not aware or simply do not care.
2. Those who focus on the welfare their immediate but are aware of our shortcomings as a global community.
3. Those who focus on both their immediate, national and global welfare.

6th has asked directly what is it that we do to sustain and expand on this welfare? Its a valid question. I find personally (and I suspect that many of the most you shall too) that I think and discuss far more than I would like to act. These threads rarely lead to action.

Is there any possibility at all, under the revamped modding approach that we can nail down between us a conpiracy that we all agree on. As on online community I feel we have the correct balance of CT'ers and skeptics to isolate a commendable theory and thereafter begin to collaborate and actually take some action.

Bare in mind that our findings would eventually be presented to the public so I suggest that we leave extremist conspiracy theories at the door (no anti-semitics or lizard hunters need apply)

Any suggestions anyone? This may need a poll.

Well if you want to e-mail them to death I'm there.:pac: But I think your right that if we can find a common issue then we could make our view heard. It's all about the numbers though.

Veni Vedi Vici

jackiebrown wrote: »

Well if you want to e-mail them to death I'm there.:pac: But I think your right that if we can find a common issue then we could make our view heard. It's all about the numbers though.

Cohesion, solidarity, numbers. Whatever we may call it the premise for progessions exists here. Lone gone are the days of rounding up Paddy's around the food market. An online forum should be more than sufficent for us to gain minimal closure on a topic that satiates all.

It would seem that the last time the Irish people agreed with each other was under the rule of Brian Buru. Now's as good a time as any I say to you.

We need to network and accrue, network and acrue and then some thereafter. So long as we remain in factions our respective destinies are forever crooked.

Apologies for the waxation of the poetic. Three bottles of bargain end wine and a slight excuse for occasion will do that to the best of us (and yet does not drunkeness not represent the apex of Irish charm ). Nonetheless I stand by my convictions. A common ground, a common motive, an common entity for a swift result for each of us all.

meglome

Lads I've yet to hear just how society is worse now than it was in the past. As far as I can see nearly everything you've described was much worse in the past.

Veni Vedi Vici

meglome wrote: »

Lads I've yet to hear just how society is worse now than it was in the past. As far as I can see nearly everything you've described was much worse in the past.

Let's say for arguments sake that a comparison of the discrepancies of the past break dead even with those of the present.

Are we now not more educated and adept to tackle the shortcomings of our global community?

Mahatma coat

meglome wrote: »

Lads I've yet to hear just how society is worse now than it was in the past. As far as I can see nearly everything you've described was much worse in the past.

oooh can I have a go in your time machine so that I too may objectivly judge the past by our standards, and then maybe we could whip forward a thousand years and judge us by their standards.

Seriously anyone livin as a citizen in Rome 2500 years ago was, as far as they were concerned, at the cutteng edge of civilisation, they had 'representative' government, central heating,Indoor plumbing, slaves, schools and daycare, libraries, public baths, bakeries, resturaunts, theaters, GLADIATORS, stable economies, a road network that enabled communication like never before, modern methods of transportation, and a general sense that their way of life would persevere throughout the ages.

So what has changed, besides the acquisition of a few nifty little gadgets to to replace the slaves?

Veni Vedi Vici

Mahatma coat wrote: »

So what has changed, besides the acquisition of a few nifty little gadgets to to replace the slaves?

Heh, besides the sweath shops it's funny because it true.

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

So what has changed, besides the acquisition of a few nifty little gadgets to to replace the slaves?

Medicine, science, education, philosophy, emancipation, free expression of ideas, uncensored instant communication, abundant crops, safe travel, fair courts, human rights and so on.
I for one particularly enjoy not dying of an infection or having my children die due to disease not being understood.

But other than that I'd love to live in a over simplistic view of the wealthier part of Roman life. I'd hate to be part of the vast majority of people who had no access to to any to the stuff listed. Or worse being a Roman slave.

Veni Vedi Vici

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

Let's say for arguments sake that a comparison of the discrepancies of the past break dead even with those of the present.

Are we now not more educated and adept to tackle the shortcomings of our global community?

Directed at KM.

King Mob

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

Directed at KM.

Yes, due to better education, free expression, not being ruled by "divine representatives" and mostly living longer due to not dying from curable diseases.

Veni Vedi Vici

King Mob wrote: »

Yes, due to better education, free expression, not being ruled by "divine representatives" and mostly living longer due to not dying from curable diseases.

Granted . And altruistically?

King Mob

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

Granted . And altruistically?

Well we actually have social welfare were I think the Roman policy was to let you starve.
Far from perfect but definitely better than what most of the Romans had.

Veni Vedi Vici

King Mob wrote: »

Well we actually have social welfare were I think the Roman policy was to let you starve.
Far from perfect but definitely better than what most of the Romans had.

All accurate as expected but the question is are we not in a position to leverage our global welfare by our acquired altruism as a result of our progression in opposition to our predecessors?

I honestly don't know the answer. I'm just throwing it out there.