Bernard Dunne's Best Chance For A World Title?

Duddyfan

T-K-O wrote: »

Duddy could get sucked into war with the heavy bag.

Lol You're right, but that's part of the attraction, he's never in a boring fight.

T-K-O

Duddyfan wrote: »

Lol You're right, but that's part of the attraction, he's never in a boring fight.

Oh I know and that is why I love watching him - but the example using him in the previous post is laughable.

Duddyfan

T-K-O wrote: »

Oh I know and that is why I love watching him - but the example using him in the previous post is laughable.

I like both fighters but in my opinion if both got world title shots, Dunne would have more of a chance at winning than Duddy.
I admire Duddy's heart and determination and his fights are amazing but I equally admire Dunne's skill and technicality and if people must compare the two, Dunne comes out on top imo despite my screen name!
But like I said before, there cannot be truly fair comparisons because of their opposing styles.

T-K-O

You are right it is unfair to compare the two guys, I wasnt putting Duddy down by bringing his name up in this thread just trying to make a point.

And I agree that Dunne has the better skills to win a world title. Dunne has the skills to fight smart and stay out of trouble I just wish he would fight a little smarter because he will have to in order to win a title.

walshb

I had a feeling the whole Dunne boxed the ears off Pickering would come out; yes he did, because Pickering was like all his previous opponents; USELESS!

Anyway, as far as it goes, Dunne has done nothing YET and we will see; but I bet my house he doesn't come close to winning a world title. I bet right now, if he does challenge for the world title, any of the 3 (IBF, WBA, WBC) in any weight, he loses after 2 rds at BEST.

There is a daring prediction; anyone care to counter it!
Seriously, many talk about Dunne being good/great and bordering world class;
okay, how does he do if he fights for a world title against any of
the current champs in the 122 and 126 division. Make a prediction?
At least I am saying what WILL HAPPEN should Dunne
ever fight a legitimate world champ. Some here are simply pondering, guessing, speculating, dreaming
wishing, making excuses etc etc.

Maybe you are all waiting for the comp poll when the bout is ready to go? What's wrong with a prediction right now?

TKO, I'm fed up with you thinking because someone thinks a fighter
is below below below world level, they must then dislike the fighter personally?

You are only makin' yourself out as idiotic really.

Dunne is no different than a lot of other fighters from Ireland, Lee and Hyland and even Duddy, all below world level; except that Dunne is the MOST HYPED of the lot, and by a long shot.

Lets wait and see. I tell you; he will not come close. KO before rd 3 begins in any world title fight
against any world champ!

walshb

Duddyfan wrote: »

I like both fighters but in my opinion if both got world title shots, Dunne would have more of a chance at winning than Duddy.
I admire Duddy's heart and determination and his fights are amazing but I equally admire Dunne's skill and technicality and if people must compare the two, Dunne comes out on top imo despite my screen name!
But like I said before, there cannot be truly fair comparisons because of their opposing styles.

I honestly don't see how you see this. Duddy at least has championship stamina and a chin. These two are VITAL for any chance, Dunne has neither.
Saying this, it can only be Duddy if any of them really.

Can Dunne really avoid getting hit for 12 rds at a fierce pace.
Assuming the title is world and held by a TOP fighter, which
it should be; then Dunne will have to expect serious pressure and
will have to expect to take flush shots.

Duddy has shown his stamina and chin. Dunne hasn't!


Unless you want to include 12 and 10 rds at sparrring pace!

Fuc& sake, Faccio (blown up bantam) in his last bout was holding his own and coming on strong before the stoppage and that fight was ridiculous and should not have been any threat to Bernard.
Surely we can expect ten times the pressure and pace at WORLD level!

walshb

T-K-O wrote: »

.

Fighting Dublin is where the money is at, and for Munroe to turn down a Dublin date only to fight a scrub a few months later is sad!!

Whatever you think of Dunne is one thing, but to make out Munroe is running scared is ridiculous. He's the champ and Peters the prick is trying to dictate terms?

Shows us all, except you of course, that Peters is only really
concerned about freaking money and hype hype hype.

If he really believes Dunne can win, go get the title and then go
make the money.

The whole freaking thing stinks of con men!

But, I don't expect you to address that; you
will simply pull the whole 'you hate Dunne' crap again as an
argument. Now, that is SAD!

T-K-O

A promotor in it for the money, now there is a novel idea:rolleyes: All promotors are the same that is when boxers usually try to get away from them.

walsh Im beginning to think you are the idiot. Im well aware Peters is in it for the money and I have stated many times that I do not like ANY of Dunnes team.

Why do you feel the need to ****e on all the Dunne thread be it about his skills or not ?

bikki

I dont hate Dunne, i just think he's ****. He's never gonna win a proper title and il very happy bet my house on it. Hes done nothing to prove otherwise.

Duddyfan

walshb wrote: »

I honestly don't see how you see this. Duddy at least has championship stamina and a chin. These two are VITAL for any chance, Dunne has neither.
Saying this, it can only be Duddy if any of them really.

Can Dunne really avoid getting hit for 12 rds at a fierce pace.
Assuming the title is world and held by a TOP fighter, which
it should be; then Dunne will have to expect serious pressure and
will have to expect to take flush shots.

Duddy has shown his stamina and chin. Dunne hasn't!


Unless you want to include 12 and 10 rds at sparrring pace!

Fuc& sake, Faccio (blown up bantam) in his last bout was holding his own and coming on strong before the stoppage and that fight was ridiculous and should not have been any threat to Bernard.
Surely we can expect ten times the pressure and pace at WORLD level!

I just think Dunne has more skill and can also fight when need be.Dunne's chin is not as bad as people make out in my opinion. I could see him putting on a better performance against Oscar Larios, for instance, than McCullogh did and there is no saying he could not win that fight.

Duddy on the other hand just get's sucked into brawling and lets the crowd get to him.If he done it against Smichet I can only imagine how much the pressure of a world title fight would get to him.

I wouldn't rule out Dunne to win some sort of title but Duddy,although I agree with you that he has the stamina, chin, etc and is a great professional, I see him having more trouble doing it. I think Duddy should try for the EBU belt which I feel he would have a decent chance at.

I am not an expert by any means so I take your points on board.I guess the only way we will find out is if both get their world title shots.

Just a question though, who would Dunne and Duddy have to beat,in your opinion ,to proove themselves worthy of a world title chance?

mark renton

Dunne has beaten world class bantam and made it look v easy,beaten the best superbantamweights in Europe bar 1 punch, beaten marchiano - good enough to get in the ring with Ponce de Leon. Other than world class level there is no other place that can challenge him as a boxer. IMO to even think that Hyland has the right to be in the same ring is slightly deluded. Dont get me wrong Hyland is promising but has to earn his stripes.

Hangballlouie

john47832 wrote: »

Go get some reality pills.... Hyland is still a novice

Patrick Hyland has the same amount of fights (or thereabouts) as Martinez when he beat Dunne.
If you look through Hyland's and Martinez's record, they are very similar up to the point of Martinez beating Dunne.
Patrick Hyland is naturally bigger than Dunne, more powerful and I would fancy him to beat Bernard at featherweight.

The chemist are all out of reality pills, I just used a spoonful of common sense.;)

Duddyfan

john47832 wrote: »

Dunne has beaten world class bantam and made it look v easy,beaten the best superbantamweights in Europe bar 1 punch, beaten marchiano - good enough to get in the ring with Ponce de Leon. Other than world class level there is no other place that can challenge him as a boxer. IMO to even think that Hyland has the right to be in the same ring is slightly deluded. Dont get me wrong Hyland is promising but has to earn his stripes.

That's how I look at it too, most people just pick Dunne's low points like his fights with Martinez/Veronin, but he really has a lot going for him.
The thing with Dunne is that no one has come close to outclassing him, and he has been in with some decent boxers,Pickering,Machado,Veronin, etc.

simongurnick

walshb wrote: »

Whatever you think of Dunne is one thing, but to make out Munroe is running scared is ridiculous. He's the champ and Peters the prick is trying to dictate terms?

Shows us all, except you of course, that Peters is only really
concerned about freaking money and hype hype hype.

If he really believes Dunne can win, go get the title and then go
make the money.

The whole freaking thing stinks of con men!

But, I don't expect you to address that; you
will simply pull the whole 'you hate Dunne' crap again as an
argument. Now, that is SAD!

Why is that a surprise? He's a boxing promoter. It's par for the course. And why shouldn't he hype him up. Sugar Ray was hyping him up before he came back to fight in Ireland. Whatever you think of Dunne and Peters they've helped put pro boxing back into the consciousness of the Irish general public.

walshb

TKO, you think I'm an idiot?
Coming from someone with your posting history?:D

You know I have said nothing that is untrue
regarding Dunne


As I said, lets wait and see. I still see nobody has
actually made a prediction on how Dune will fare
should he fight for a legitimate world title.

I said he will not make rd 3.

btw, does anyone realise that the champs in the
122 and 126 divisions see Dunne as an easy payday; a bum
that they will destroy and make a few quid off?

This is what they see and when Dunne does finally step up
and meet quality, this will be brutally proven

Anyone care to actually make a prediction on Dunne against
any of the champs; even the weakest?

walshb

john47832 wrote: »

Dunne has beaten world class bantam and made it look v easy,beaten the best superbantamweights in Europe bar 1 punch, beaten marchiano - good enough to get in the ring with Ponce de Leon. Other than world class level there is no other place that can challenge him as a boxer. IMO to even think that Hyland has the right to be in the same ring is slightly deluded. Dont get me wrong Hyland is promising but has to earn his stripes.

World class bantams? Who?

Machiano? You say good enough to get in the ring with Ponce. Eh, no, he was KO'd in 4 rds; so he wasn't good enough!
If we go on this, then you and me are GOOD enough; we'd get in, but we'd be quickly dispatched

Machado? A super Fly and bantam for the vast majority of his career and 36 years of age:rolleyes:

Don't forget Faccio; another bantam and giving away almost 4 inches in height. It doesn't take a genius
to figure out that these three guys are NOT a threat in any way in the pro scene.

They are all easily beatable
for 122 lb fighters!

Are you serious?

In case you weren't aware; Dunne is a super bantam. So beating bantams is hardly amazing; and they were NOT close to world class. Do the
research I have done! I have NO problem saying Bernard beat them all; but to say they were also class is just takin' the piss.
He beat them; end of!

So, not only were they not close to world class; they were in the bantamweight division and Bernard still
failed to impose himself or put them away; like a real class super bantam would have!

walshb

Duddyfan wrote: »

I just think Dunne has more skill and can also fight when need be.Dunne's chin is not as bad as people make out in my opinion. I could see him putting on a better performance against Oscar Larios, for instance, than McCullogh did and there is no saying he could not win that fight.

Duddy on the other hand just get's sucked into brawling and lets the crowd get to him.If he done it against Smichet I can only imagine how much the pressure of a world title fight would get to him.

I wouldn't rule out Dunne to win some sort of title but Duddy,although I agree with you that he has the stamina, chin, etc and is a great professional, I see him having more trouble doing it. I think Duddy should try for the EBU belt which I feel he would have a decent chance at.

I am not an expert by any means so I take your points on board.I guess the only way we will find out is if both get their world title shots.

Just a question though, who would Dunne and Duddy have to beat,in your opinion ,to proove themselves worthy of a world title chance?

Duddy is IMO worthy of a shot. He is rated 5 by the IBF; that's all he needs
officially

Bernard IMO needs a win over a TOP 10 122 or 126 lb fighter to be
considered a threat or worthy of a shot; but like we all agree, that
is not how boxing works and champs do fight guys considered bums.

So, Bernard not being rated at all in the 126 lb division says that
the champ in that division is looking for an easy win over a bum!

It's simple with Dunne, he is not rated and is not a candidate at all.
He is very low in the rankings in the 3 main bodies and hasn't done anything
to justify a high ranking. Duddy is MORE justified, simple.

T-K-O

walshb wrote: »

TKO, you think I'm an idiot?
Coming from someone with your posting history?:D

You know I have said nothing that is untrue
regarding Dunne


As I said, lets wait and see. I still see nobody has
actually made a prediction on how Dune will fare
should he fight for a legitimate world title.

I said he will not make rd 3.

btw, does anyone realise that the champs in the
122 and 126 divisions see Dunne as an easy payday; a bum
that they will destroy and make a few quid off?

This is what they see and when Dunne does finally step up
and meet quality, this will be brutally proven

Anyone care to actually make a prediction on Dunne against
any of the champs; even the weakest?

My posting history ?? You know thats is untrue and I challenge you to go get the posts.
You are acting like everything you have said about Dunne is FACT, when it is only your opinion

You can only beat what is in front of Dunne and apart from Kiko, Pickering was Dunnes biggest challenge and he more than stepped up to the plate, but of course after Dunne schools him he is a nobody according to you…typical.
And who care what the champs think, that is exactly what Dunne would want them to think[/FONT][/COLOR]

T-K-O

walshb wrote: »

Duddy is IMO worthy of a shot. He is rated 5 by the IBF; that's all he needs
officially

Bernard IMO needs a win over a TOP 10 122 or 126 lb fighter to be
considered a threat or worthy of a shot; but like we all agree, that
is not how boxing works and champs do fight guys considered bums.

So, Bernard not being rated at all in the 126 lb division says that
the champ in that division is looking for an easy win over a bum!

It's simple with Dunne, he is not rated and is not a candidate at all.
He is very low in the rankings in the 3 main bodies and hasn't done anything
to justify a high ranking. Duddy is MORE justified, simple.

Stop using the ranking as an excuse.

walshb

Welcome back TKO

Stop using the ranking as an excuse?

Ok, I could have simply said Dunne is a useless PRO regarding
the world scene. How's that?

Look, he is NOT rated at all at all at 126 and you say 'stop using the ranking as
an excuse.' Are you serious?:rolleyes:

Apart from what I think of him, what else can anybody use but their eyes and
experience and what Dunne has shown them. Using this; he has
shown me nothing to suggest he is close to world level or deserving
of a title shot. The rankings are one area to back up ones
view. The rankings aren't there for NOTHING. They do serve a purpose.

I am strongly beginning to think you aren't all that clued in?

Can you tell me why he does deserve a shot at the 126 lb title?

BTW, I did say he needs a win over a TOP 10 opponent to
catapult himself into line.

Duddy is TOP 5 IBF; this is a whole lot better than Dunne.

Finally, if he meets any champion next; how does he do?
A prediction maybe?

walshb

Also, everything I have said about Dunne is FACT.
Ok, me thinking he is a below average pro is an opinion.

Now, lets break it down, on a WORLD level here!

Power...not great, not near good enough for world level, fact
Stamina, OK, when fight at HIS pace, so IMO, not near good enough, fact
Quality of opposition, c'mon, very average, fact. No TOP 10 on his resume. Open for correction here.
Chin, highly suspect, fact
Skills, above average and very good, fact
Style, very neat, fact
Fundamentals, not great, lacks the durables and ring guile, fact
Tangibles, nowhere near good enough, fact, his chin and stamina won't allow him engage for 12 hard rds

Remember, world level, world level; not bloody Marchiano or Faccio
or Pickering or Kiko or Hughes or Betts or Machado

walshb

Bit of trivia fellas; of all Dunne's wins, who of his opponents
was rated the highest in the world by any of the 3 main bodies (WBC, WBA, IBF)?

When Dunne fought them, not at any point in their careers!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Bit of trivia fellas; of all Dunne's wins, who of his opponents
was rated the highest in the world by any of the 3 main bodies (WBC, WBA, IBF)?

When Dunne fought them, not at any point in their careers!

I'm just guessing here(I presume you've the answer), but Esham Pickering.
He was in the top 10 of all 3 if I remember right before he lost a mixed decision to Michael Hunter.
He was definitely still World ranked by at least 2 of the main 4 sanctioning bodies in their top 15, and if one of those wasn't the WBC he still would of been World ranked by them(the WBC rank up to #40).

Pickering was actually in line to fight for the IBF title at Featherweight before the loss to Dunne(and after the Hunter loss), but he got injured while training to fight Valdemir Pereira(then champion). He was in the IBF's top 15 at Super-Bantamweight at the time anyway. Possibly ranked as low as #13 if memory serves me right though.

Voronin would of been WBC top 40 at Featherweight(not sure exactly where), when he fought Dunne, and Faccio was #11 by the WBC but at the weight below Dunne.

Valdez became World ranked for a short period after losing to Dunne, Santillian became ranked by the WBO at Super-Flyweight after losing to Dunne. Wilders as European champion was probably ranked by several if not them all at one point. Machado was World ranked by at least the WBA at Bantamweight as he lost a SD for that title before winning his IBF Super-Flyweight title and he was World ranked at Bantamweight again after losing that title.
Evangelio Perez was a former WBA title challenger at Flyweight and later World ranked at Super-Flyweight by the WBA and at Bantamweight by the WBC.
Of course that paragraph are the people that don't count towards your original question.

So my answer is either Faccio or Pickering and if Pickering wasn't ranked as high as #11 by one, he wasn't certainly top 15 of at least two.


Edit: having looked at the titles Yersin Jailouev has won in his career I would bet he was ranked by both the WBC and WBO at one point.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I'm just guessing here(I presume you've the answer), but Esham Pickering.
He was in the top 10 of all 3 if I remember right before he lost a mixed decision to Michael Hunter.
He was definitely still World ranked by at least 2 of the main 4 sanctioning bodies in their top 15, and if one of those wasn't the WBC he still would of been World ranked by them(the WBC rank up to #40).

Pickering was actually in line to fight for the IBF title at Featherweight before the loss to Dunne(and after the Hunter loss), but he got injured while training to fight Valdemir Pereira(then champion). He was in the IBF's top 15 at Super-Bantamweight at the time anyway. Possibly ranked as low as #13 if memory serves me right though.

Voronin would of been WBC top 40 at Featherweight(not sure exactly where), when he fought Dunne, and Faccio was #11 by the WBC but at the weight below Dunne.

Valdez became World ranked for a short period after losing to Dunne, Santillian became ranked by the WBO at Super-Flyweight after losing to Dunne. Wilders as European champion was probably ranked by several if not them all at one point. Machado was World ranked by at least the WBA at Bantamweight as he lost a SD for that title before winning his IBF Super-Flyweight title and he was World ranked at Bantamweight again after losing that title.
Evangelio Perez was a former WBA title challenger at Flyweight and later World ranked at Super-Flyweight by the WBA and at Bantamweight by the WBC.
Of course that paragraph are the people that don't count towards your original question.

So my answer is either Faccio or Pickering and if Pickering wasn't ranked as high as #11 by one, he wasn't certainly top 15 of at least two.

Thanks, didn't know the stats. All non top 10 really, and some not even in the 122 lb division.

Pickering is the best it seems of the lot, #11 at his BEST, not #11 when Dunne met him! Still not a TOP 10 fighter and IMO, rightly so. I was never impressed with Esham and his performance V Dunne was
abysmal. Dunne did what he had to do. BTW, I think Dunne is a far
lesser fighter now than 2-3 years ago. He's slower and less busy and less fit!

Faccio being a bantam doesn't even get considered IMO. He is even a small bloody bantam

Big Ears, Jailouev may well have been ranked, but not when Dunne fought him.
He was one of Dunnes's easiest wins

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Thanks, didn't know the stats. All non top 10 really, and some not even in the 122 lb division.

Pickering is the best it seems of the lot, #11. Still not a TOP 10 fighter and IMO, rightly so. I was never impressed with Esham and his performance V Dunne was
abysmal. Dunne did what he had to do. BTW, I think Dunne is a far
lesser fighter now than 2-3 years ago. He's slower and less busy and less fit!

Faccio being a bantam doesn't even get considered IMO. He is even a small bloody bantam

Big Ears, Jailouev may well have been ranked, but not when Dunne fought him.
He was one of Dunnes's easiest wins

Oh don't get me wrong, Jailouev was a terrible fighter, but if you pick up the right belts you'll get well ranked. Jailouev held the WBO-Intercontinetal belt and defended it. There's a good chance they may have even had him top 10, despite that fact that he was just about top 10 in Europe.

Some times rankings are just a little crazy, Arsen Matirosian who Rendall Munroe beat was ranked #11 by the WBA, I wouldn't have him top 15 in Europe. Still didn't stop Munroe from struggling to a decision against him and giving away 4/5 rounds, aswell as being stunned a bit in points.

I think Munroe is having terrible trouble at the weight, his performances are getting worse and worse, and so is his stamina. Plus he's starting to show an effect against weak punchers. Munroe v Martinez II will be a terrible fight and the winner is really there for the taking for any decent European level fighter.


Edit: of course more to the point is we should ask what genuine World ranked fighters did Dunne fight ?, these organisations(bar the IBO who use a very good independent computer system) can't be trusted to rank fighters. Pickering in truth was about top 25 in the World when Dunne fought him, that's actual top 25 in the World, not what some sanctioning body say because he won their jnr-inter-two-bob-title.

Does Dunne deserve a true World title shot ?, no.
However in the current climate of boxing, where we have at least 4 champions, and where voluntaries can be as easy as you like, does he deserve a chance in that enviroment ?, yes. Dunne's probably as worthy as half of the World title challengers out there, and there's no need to be making a big deal of him getting a shot.

Look at the records of Feider Viloria and Marlon Aguilar, two men who faced Larios for his World title and tell me they were more deserving than Dunne is.
Cruz is about to fight Cyril Thomas who is no more worthy than Dunne is. Whatever about Dunne chances of actually winning his title shot, there's no doubt that under current boxing conditions, he's acually pretty worthy(which in a way is a sad thing).

joepenguin

As bigears said there are loads of fighters of Dunnes level getting shots. Might as well play to the organisations rules. This allows champions to make defences against the orgs top 15 contenders for their voluntaries.

Id like to see him in a fight he's not supposed to win. Id say he'd be up for the challenge. That Garica guy or Zarate.

Oh and as for intercontinental belts. Wouldnt it make sense to get one of those around his waist as it would shoot him up the rankings in at least one org?

walshb

Big ears, I agree with your post and the way boxing has gone is a terrible
way if champs are simply defending against low low ranked fighters.
Dunne is just another low low ranked man who will get a shot; as I said.

He shouldn't, as the others shouldn't; but that's boxing and you can't blame the fighters for selecting the easy route; Dunne is the EASY route for the champs, and I think very very easy. The fighters are being allowed defend against crap by those in power.

So, ultimately; Dunne has never faced a TOP 10 fighter (at the time he fought them) in almost 8 years as
a pro. Pickering being the highest ranked; and to me, Pickering was very poor!

BTW, I would like to see Dunne fight for a title in either his next fight or the
one after it. Of course I would; but the whole point I was making which
any knowledgeable person would agree, is that Dunne is so so far from
being worthy, as are a lot of others in his position. That's all!
Current ridiculous standards, anyone is bloody worthy!

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

but the whole point I was making which
any knowledgeable person would agree, is that Dunne is so so far from
being worthy, as are a lot of others in his position. That's all!
Current ridiculous standards, anyone is bloody worthy!

Bren, this is not a new phenomenom-its always been like this, just these days the rankings are more accessible. even the best of the best have had there fights with nobodys.

Dunne is where the money is at so if there doing an voluntary defense of the title then he's as good a choice as any, plus from a boxing fans point of view we can see what level dunne is actually at!

he wont be easy for anyone, unless he's knocked out. and i dont think that will happen so easy now due to experience..

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Bren, this is not a new phenomenom-its always been like this, just these days the rankings are more accessible. even the best of the best have had there fights with nobodys.

Dunne is where the money is at so if there doing an voluntary defense of the title then he's as good a choice as any, plus from a boxing fans point of view we can see what level dunne is actually at!

he wont be easy for anyone, unless he's knocked out. and i dont think that will happen so easy now due to experience..

Paul, I know all too well that it happens and IMO, Dunne is no different than others who I consider unworthy of a shot. I do believe he will get the shot and the champ and
his team will see it as an easy pay day. And a very good pay day; and I can't blame them either!

My point is not that it doesn't happen; it has happened since day 1, my point
is that it's so far off the mark in Dunne's case regarding the 126 lb shot! But, we have
to admit, it is a lot worse today than years ago

You say he won't be easy for anyone.
OK, if you ask me if he will be easily out boxed; I would say NO; but KOs and pressure and strength etc are all too much for Bernard and the pace, he cannot handle.

If the rules were that you couldn't put hurt on your foe and you
could only win on points scoring, YES, Bernard has a good chance.

Unfortunately for Bernard, this is NOT the case, and he has
nothing to deter a strong legitimate champ from walking thru him with
relative ease.

Has Bernard's defence really improved. I still see glaring
weaknesses here; and weaknesses that will be brutally
exposed when he steps up to meet a legitimate class 122 fighter.

How anyone can praise or make out that beating Faccio or Machado
are examples of Dunne's capability at world level are so far off the mark; not that you did Paul; but others seem to use these wins over blown up, low ranked and low talented
bantams. For you TKO, in case you accuse me of simply 'using the ranking excuse.':rolleyes:

Lets see Bernard in against a class 122 lb fighter.
I still think Bernard making it to rd 3 V any
world champ at 122 or 126 is highly unlikely.

I also happen to think that if he is going to challenge at 126
straight away for a world title; they should at least test the bloody waters
first.

However, Peters and CO are not a good team at all. They are
money men and they don't care that Dunne gets wiped out, as long
as they make the few quid.

walshb

Two super bantams I saw a fight a few times who aren't even TOP 10 are Rey Bautista and Heriberto Ruiz. They both met on the Hattom-Mal card and both would be far too strong and heavy hitting for Dunne.

Now, both these guys wouldn't stand a chance at a world title at 122 or 126.
JMM at 122 would KO both quickly. Ponce already destroyed Bautista
in one rd

Did anyone watch these two scrap on Nov 22nd?

I thought both were very good and would easily beat Dunne

Big Ears, Paul, what do you think?

cowzerp

Yep they where savages, fast, aggressive and had good power for little dudes, actually best fight of the night on that show..

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yep they where savages, fast, aggressive and had good power for little dudes, actually best fights of the night on that show..

Indeed Paul, and both are not even the best, or close, and both would be thoroughly beaten at the TOP; but Paul, how would you see Dunne fare against both of them?

I honestly cannot see him last long at all. I just can't see it.. Too aggressive and fast and hard hitting and strong. All around too good!

cowzerp

yeah but they where not who dunne is expected to fight, He'd struggle with them. i think he could win a title but he wont hold onto it for any lenght of time if he does get 1. If he wins it and defends in ireland it will be a great honour and a good money spinner..

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

yeah but they where not who dunne is expected to fight, He'd struggle with them. i think he could win a title but he wont hold onto it for any lenght of time if he does get 1. If he wins it and defends in ireland it will be a great honour and a good money spinner..

Paul, he is expected to fight for the title at 126 against the champ.
Now, both Bautista and Ruiz are not in the top 10 at 122. Both these guys wouldn't be even rated in the 126 division, just like Bernard, and if WE think he can't beat Bautista and Ruiz at 122, with them being NOT close to the best, how can WE think he wins a 126 title?

I know that I do debate Bernard; but he is up for debate and I really would hate to see him being so soundly whupped when he does get the shot. This is going to happen and deep down, I think Dunne knows it only too well. As much as I do not rate Bernard the fighter, I wouldn't like to see
him being brutally exposed and out of his depth

His camp have seen the lower ranked guys like Ruiz and they
cannot have been confident; so how can they think he has a chance at a higher weight against one of the CHAMPIONS? It doesn't make sense at all.

I bet both Bautista and Ruiz would lose soundly if either challenged any of the world champs at feather anytime soon!

So, if they have little chance, what HOPE has Dunne?

cowzerp

The thing is while i agree that they would probably beat dunne i also think they would beat most the title holders at 126, its also well known that the champs at 122 are at a higher calibre than the ones at 126 at the moment and known more for power also..so its not the normal comparison that we would make..

Duddyfan

walshb wrote: »

Paul, he is expected to fight for the title at 126 against the champ.
Now, both Bautista and Ruiz are not in the top 10 at 122. Both these guys wouldn't be even rated in the 126 division, just like Bernard, and if WE think he can't beat Bautista and Ruiz at 122, with them being NOT close to the best, how can WE think he wins a 126 title?

I know that I do debate Bernard; but he is up for debate and I really would hate to see him being so soundly whupped when he does get the shot. This is going to happen and deep down, I think Dunne knows it only too well. As much as I do not rate Bernard the fighter, I wouldn't like to see
him being brutally exposed and out of his depth

His camp have seen the lower ranked guys like Ruiz and they
cannot have been confident; so how can they think he has a chance at a higher weight against one of the CHAMPIONS? It doesn't make sense at all.

I bet both Bautista and Ruiz would lose soundly if either challenged any of the world champs at feather anytime soon!

So, if they have little chance, what HOPE has Dunne?

Obviously there are a lot of super bantams who could beat Dunne but the guys you use as examples are not even on Dunne's radar.

Answer these questions :

Could Bernard Dunne beat Cruz, Larios or Luevano ?And if not, what's your reasoning ?The move to featherweight is not a valid argument as he has fought at that weight and is stronger at the weight.Also Dunne's style dictates his pace which is why he may appear slow but who's to say he can't up the pace when need be, he's done it before.He has a vicious left hook to the body which could definately do some damage to a boxer who's getting on a bit ie Larios and even if he is less fit than a few years ago (which I don't agree) he is fitter than Larios, easily.I say he beats Larios and has a decent chance against Cruz and Luevano.

walshb

Duddyfan wrote: »

Obviously there are a lot of super bantams who could beat Dunne but the guys you use as examples are not even on Dunne's radar.

Answer these questions :

Could Bernard Dunne beat Cruz, Larios or Luevano ?And if not, what's your reasoning ?The move to featherweight is not a valid argument as he has fought at that weight and is stronger at the weight.Also Dunne's style dictates his pace which is why he may appear slow but who's to say he can't up the pace when need be, he's done it before.He has a vicious left hook to the body which could definately do some damage to a boxer who's getting on a bit ie Larios and even if he is less fit than a few years ago (which I don't agree) he is fitter than Larios, easily.I say he beats Larios and has a decent chance against Cruz and Luevano.

Vicious left hook to the body?

Is this the same shot that has hardly ever stopped an opponent?
Is it the same shot that could NOT put away his last 3 fights against Super Fly's and bantamns?:rolleyes:

Anyway, fellas, if you say the 126 world champs are so poor that guys outside the division at 122 and ranked from number 10 onwards would
probably beat them; then BOXING is really really suffering. I find it a little hard to believe to be honest. If they are so poor, why don't the top ranked 122 men simply abandon the division and go take the world titles at 126?

I'll stand by my prediction (KO loss before 3 rds) and I will say that I think if Dunne and team
are SET on taking a 126 title; at least TEST Dunne in even ONE warm up bout at the weight

BTW, I am quite confident that Bautista and Ruiz would be soundly
beaten, if, in their next bout, they challenged at 126 against the world champs.

So, where does that leave Dunne's chances?

walshb

Duddyfan wrote: »

Obviously there are a lot of super bantams who could beat Dunne but the guys you use as examples are not even on Dunne's radar.

Answer these questions :

Could Bernard Dunne beat Cruz, Larios or Luevano ?And if not, what's your reasoning ?The move to featherweight is not a valid argument as he has fought at that weight and is stronger at the weight.Also Dunne's style dictates his pace which is why he may appear slow but who's to say he can't up the pace when need be, he's done it before.He has a vicious left hook to the body which could definately do some damage to a boxer who's getting on a bit ie Larios and even if he is less fit than a few years ago (which I don't agree) he is fitter than Larios, easily.I say he beats Larios and has a decent chance against Cruz and Luevano.

I used them as examples of fighters that I believe would easily beat Dunne; and that are NOT rated very high at 122. I am trying to explain why Dunne then challenging for a 126 title can only end in a brutal loss.

What's my reasoning for why Dunne won't beat Cruz and Larios and Luevano?

Are you serious?

He's just not good enough, that's the reason. I thought that
would have been obvious and if you read post #72, I go into
a little more detail as to why I believe Dunne to be simply
nowhere near good enough at world level.

You say the move to feather is not a valid argument?
I'm not with you. Bernard is a super bantam. Yes, he may have had
bouts where he weighed as a feather; but against whom? About 16 bouts actually
It's not like any of the bouts were actually noted and made out
as any way significant. C'mon, the guys he beat as a feather were freaking useless cans!
Should Bernard show me a win against a decent fighter; only then will
I consider him as a TOP challenge.

The facts are simple; he has not one single WIN over a TOP rated fighter.

And on career number 2, he has beat 3 nobodies and all smaller men at
a lower weight. And in each win; he hardly mesmerized!

This is all too glaring; at least to me!

Look, if you and others are just happy to see Dunne challenge, fair enough.
I take it a little more serious. I don't want Bernard to be
brutally beaten and embarrassed. I really don't; nor would I want
to see any Irish boxer thrown in a bout for money with NO chance
of winning and being badly beaten. I just don't like that!

Peters and CO couldn't give a toss about Bernard's well being.
It's all about the cash with them.

Hey, the cash is important; but it
is still only one element in the equation, big as it is.

Pride and success
and preparation and determination and wanting to do well is so so
important.

BTW Duddy, can you make a prediction should Dunne
challenge for a 126 world title? Straight up; how will he do?
Forget Chris John; against Cruz or Larios?
Luevan is WBO; against him, how will Dunne do?

walshb

How Cruz is the champion I do not know; as I think there are far better men
at 126. He did win the title when it was vacated. He will still be too strong for Bernard.

I look down the list and see Gamboa and think hwo he would or should beat Cruz fairly comfortable. Gamboa is rated number 8. Boxing is freaking crazy!

Larios is far from a great feather and at 32, is past his best; but still young enough and strong enough to beat Dunne comfortably

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

BTW, I am quite confident that Bautista and Ruiz would be soundly
beaten, if, in their next bout, they challenged at 126 against the world champs.

Hmm odd that, Ruiz beat Cruz so clearly the first time, what would be different in the rematch.

One thing I do want to note about Dunne is I felt he would have beaten Sergio Medina if Medina had taken the fight against him rather than a World title fight.
Medina collapsed mentally against Lopez, and his time aren't going to let him fight again till he has so psychological analysis. However I'm talking about Medina at his best not in that fight. Medina was ranked #6 in the World by the ring and ranked in the top 10 of 3 of the 4 major sanctioning bodies.

In truth he really was only just a top 20 fighter, but I felt Dunne would of outboxed him over 12.

Dunne would outbox Ruiz but probably not for a full 12 and he'd most likely get caught and finished at some point. I wouldn't totally right him off beating Bautista, Rey is so open that he negates his physical talents and his chin is of the variety than Dunne can hurt. Not saying he would beat Bautista, just that he could beat Bautista.

Duddyfan

walshb wrote: »

I used them as examples of fighters that I believe would easily beat Dunne; and that are NOT rated very high at 122. I am trying to explain why Dunne then challenging for a 126 title can only end in a brutal loss.

What's my reasoning for why Dunne won't beat Cruz and Larios and Luevano?

Are you serious?

He's just not good enough, that's the reason. I thought that
would have been obvious and if you read post #72, I go into
a little more detail as to why I believe Dunne to be simply
nowhere near good enough at world level.

You say the move to feather is not a valid argument?
I'm not with you. Bernard is a super bantam. Yes, he may have had
bouts where he weighed as a feather; but against whom? About 16 bouts actually
It's not like any of the bouts were actually noted and made out
as any way significant. C'mon, the guys he beat as a feather were freaking useless cans!
Should Bernard show me a win against a decent fighter; only then will
I consider him as a TOP challenge.

The facts are simple; he has not one single WIN over a TOP rated fighter.

And on career number 2, he has beat 3 nobodies and all smaller men at
a lower weight. And in each win; he hardly mesmerized!

This is all too glaring; at least to me!

Look, if you and others are just happy to see Dunne challenge, fair enough.
I take it a little more serious. I don't want Bernard to be
brutally beaten and embarrassed. I really don't; nor would I want
to see any Irish boxer thrown in a bout for money with NO chance
of winning and being badly beaten. I just don't like that!

Peters and CO couldn't give a toss about Bernard's well being.
It's all about the cash with them.

Hey, the cash is important; but it
is still only one element in the equation, big as it is.

Pride and success
and preparation and determination and wanting to do well is so so
important.

BTW Duddy, can you make a prediction should Dunne
challenge for a 126 world title? Straight up; how will he do?
Forget Chris John; against Cruz or Larios?
Luevan is WBO; against him, how will Dunne do?

I take your point about Dunne's team being money hungry a$$holes to put it lightly!But would Dunne really take a fight that he knew he had no chance of winning?I don't think so, he seems like an intelligent guy and if he truly thought he couldn't cut it I think he would be fighting Munroe for the EBU instead.

Ok so for the predictions, and I will stand by them, you can come back and say I told you so, if I'm wrong!

Dunne V Larios - Dunne wins by late stoppage or on points
Dunne V Cruz - Dunne on points
Dunne V Luevano - Could go either way

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Hmm odd that, Ruiz beat Cruz so clearly the first time, what would be different in the rematch.

One thing I do want to note about Dunne is I felt he would have beaten Sergio Medina if Medina had taken the fight against him rather than a World title fight.
Medina collapsed mentally against Lopez, and his time aren't going to let him fight again till he has so psychological analysis. However I'm talking about Medina at his best not in that fight. Medina was ranked #6 in the World by the ring and ranked in the top 10 of 3 of the 4 major sanctioning bodies.

In truth he really was only just a top 20 fighter, but I felt Dunne would of outboxed him over 12.

Dunne would outbox Ruiz but probably not for a full 12 and he'd most likely get caught and finished at some point. I wouldn't totally right him off beating Bautista, Rey is so open that he negates his physical talents and his chin is of the variety than Dunne can hurt. Not saying he would beat Bautista, just that he could beat Bautista.

I hadn't realised that, my mistake; but I did say Cruz was a pretty pretty
ordinary champ. I still feel he beats Bernard; and by KO/TKO!

No way Dunne out boxes or lasts v Ruiz. The guy is just too strong. If Dunne had power he may last a while and outbox; but Dunne has nothing at all
to hurt or deter Ruiz with. Dunne will have to engage Ruiz at some point and that is when Ruiz WILL nail him with heavy and fast combos. I dopn't think Dunne lasts long at all.

Duddyfan, at least I finally get some hard and decent predictions.

Well, all anyone can do now is sit and wait. I just hope he
isn't destroyed and embarrassed!

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I wouldn't totally right him off beating Bautista, Rey is so open that he negates his physical talents and his chin is of the variety than Dunne can hurt. Not saying he would beat Bautista, just that he could beat Bautista.

Bautista's chin is of the variety that Dunne can hurt?
Well, Dunne couldn't dent his last three little opponents; and Rey lasted
the route with a much harder hitting Ruiz. I don't see the logic here at all!

Rey may not have a great chin; as Ruiz did hurt him several times and Ponce ended it in 1 rd; but Ponce and Ruiz are far deadlier hitters than Dunne.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Bautista's chin is of the variety that Dunne can hurt?
Well, Dunne couldn't dent his last three little opponents; and Rey lasted
the route with a much harder hitting Ruiz. I don't see the logic here at all!

Rey may not have a great chin; as Ruiz did hurt him several times and Ponce ended it in 1 rd; but Ponce and Ruiz are far deadlier hitters than Dunne.

Medina isn't though and he had Bautista on queer street in their fight, hence my logic.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Medina isn't though and he had Bautista on queer street in their fight, hence my logic.

Well, maybe Rey's chin has improved. It looked sturdy enough V Ruiz; despite being wobbled. Bottom line; he can go 8 with Ruiz; he can definitely go 8 with Bernard.
Could Bernard go 8 with him though?

Strongly doubt it!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Well, maybe Rey's chin has improved. It looked sturdy enough V Ruiz; despite being wobbled. Bottom line; he can go 8 with Ruiz; he can definitely go 8 with Bernard.
Could Bernard go 8 with him though?

Strongly doubt it!

I reckon he could, Boom Boom isn't all he's cracked up to be. He's never beaten anyone Dunne couldn't beat and he leaves himself extremely open at times when throwing himself. To say his chin has improved would be naive, Ruiz is a natural Bantamweight and although a decent puncher there he wouldn't be known as having absolutely massive power.

As I said I'm not sure Dunne would beat Bautista, but he could beat Bautista.

walshb

Ruiz may well have begun as a bantam or super fly; but by 24 he was a fully fledged 122 fighter and looks a hell of a lot sturdier and stronger at the weight than Dunne.
He is also as tall; if not taller than Bernard!

Overall; he looks the bigger fighter physically!

Either way, neither of these will meet Dunne; why risk it when you
can make a load of dosh going straight for the title?:rolleyes:

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Ruiz may well have begun as a bantam or super fly; but by 24 he was a fully fledged 122 fighter and looks a hell of a lot sturdier and stronger at the weight than Dunne.
He is also as tall; if not taller than Bernard!

Overall; he looks the bigger fighter physically!

Either way, neither of these will meet Dunne; why risk it when you
can make a load of dosh going straight for the title?:rolleyes:

Not true, Ruiz sometimes fights at Super-Bantamweight for non title fights(much the same way as Dunne fights at Featherweight), but in title fights and eliminator he has solely operated at Bantamweight(or Super-Flyweight earlier in his career)

He's participated in 13 'title' fights or eliminators in his career, 6 at Super-Flyweight, 7 at Bantamweight. 4 months ago he lost a WBO-Intercontinental Bantamweight title fight to Eric Morel. Morel who was almost a career long Super-Flyweight floored him on the way to winning a clear decision. Not that worrying Morel is a very good fighter.

I'm not sure how you can say he was a fully fledged Super-Bantamweight by 24, when at 29 he weighed in at Super-Flyweight for an NABF Bantamweight title fight.

walshb

He must have been killing himself; his weights are so fluctulant' too
He looks bigger than Bernard, simple!

T-K-O

walshb wrote: »

I hadn't realised that, my mistake; but I did say Cruz was a pretty pretty
ordinary champ. I still feel he beats Bernard; and by KO/TKO!

No way Dunne out boxes or lasts v Ruiz. The guy is just too strong. If Dunne had power he may last a while and outbox; but Dunne has nothing at all
to hurt or deter Ruiz with. Dunne will have to engage Ruiz at some point and that is when Ruiz WILL nail him with heavy and fast combos. I dopn't think Dunne lasts long at all.

Duddyfan, at least I finally get some hard and decent predictions.

Well, all anyone can do now is sit and wait. I just hope he
isn't destroyed and embarrassed!

Walsh, you are one in a million.