Are travellers a distinct ethnic subset within Ireland? v.2

Thirdfox

This was the AH version (now locked due to language used by other posters - I should have known better than to start one in AH):
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055440878

But I am interested in people's views on the matter:

thirdfox wrote:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...breaking13.htm

"New campaign to win ethnic status for Travellers"

I suppose a reasonable argument could be made that they are - however, that status is not merely "an important symbolic recognition" as the group claims but confers legal rights as part of international law - the right to self-determination as espoused by both the UN's International Covenant on Civil/Political Rights and the Declaration on the Rights of the World’s Indigenous Peoples.

p.s. self-determination does not mean that they can form an independent state within our territory (a la the Quebecois in Canada) - but a separate political/religious/cultural identity that must be respected etc. I don't know, but maybe they already have these rights in Ireland at the moment (I do not believe so though).

Sorry to be so high-brow about this, but what do people think? Though this is AH, people can still be civil in expressing their opinions correct?

I suppose that last sentence went over people's heads...

mikemac

High-brow discussion in After Hours?? :pac:

I say nay.
If they wish to apply to such status, let them take it to Europe or the UN and apply for it. I don't know the steps involved but the Irish government will not give special status anytime soon

I posted my reasons in the other thread but to repeat, they have this status in the UK and manage to qoute Human rights law to defend the indefensible.
This became a hot topic and a pledge for the conservative party in the 2005 election but alas, they weren't elected.
I'm more then happy to get examples if needed

edit, wtf: 395 euro for a subscription to the Irish Times and it's back catalogue?? That's pushing it

What's the criteria for being defined as a distinct ethnic subset? No real point in having a discussion unless that's agreed on.

Stones85

No I believe they are not, imo they are Irish nationals who choose to live a certain way, they also generally speaking marry people only within their own community that they created. All the above is their own choice. They are Irish full stop imo.

Is it possible that they get this status in the UK because they are Irsh, therefore a seperate ethnicity/nationality to them? Am I talking ****? Probobly.

ChocolateSauce

Gypsies are considered their own ethnicity, so it shouldn't be impossible for travelers to have the same consideration. I wouldn't feel that way personally though; to me they're just Irish people who travel.

ART6

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the criteria for being defined as a distinct ethnic subset? No real point in having a discussion unless that's agreed on.

+1. The trouble is that people seek to make their own rules in claiming that they are an ethnic subset, generally when they see an advantage for themselves in doing so. I am inclined towards the view that anyone who is a ctizen of a country and who is constrained by that country's laws cannot be a subset. Whether or not he happens to be a Moslem or a Hindu or a traveller is irrelevant.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Gypsies are considered their own ethnicity, so it shouldn't be impossible for travelers to have the same consideration. I wouldn't feel that way personally though; to me they're just Irish people who travel.

Gypsies have long been considered that way, not as far as I am aware for any legislative reason but more as a result of custom and practise. If we give the same status to travellers then we might as well say that anyone from Wexford is an ethnic subset. Giving special status to anyone on the basis of some perceived ethnic difference is highly dagerous and devisive in my view. If you live in this country then you are either Irish of an accepted immigrant expected to live under our laws, customs, and practises. End of.

T runner

Heres a couple of sites:

http://www.paveepoint.ie/
http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/traveller-myths.pdf

A definition of an Ethnic minority from, Wikipedia:

An ethnic group is defined as one whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. Ethnic identity is also marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural or biological traits.

Some travellers believe an ancient lineage back to a tinsmith involved in constructing Christ's cross. This man's ancestors were cursed by Christ and doomed to walk the earth till judgement day.

Some reckon they are descended from landowners dispossed by the Cromwellian invasian or survivors of the famine.

I dont think genealogy should be a major influence on ethnic identity.
I believe significant cultural differences over a long period of time are more relevant and they may have a case there.

In Irish, Travellers are called an Lucht siúil "the walking people".

mountainyman

micmclo wrote: »

I say nay.
If they wish to apply to such status, let them take it to Europe or the UN and apply for it. I don't know the steps involved but the Irish government will not give special status anytime soon

They have been recognised by the Council of Europe as an ethnic group. In my opinion they are not but fair play I say in all sincerity for gaming the system.

Hellm0

I do not really see the point of giving them any special recognition, that only means they are looking for special treatment.

mountainyman

Hellm0 wrote: »

I do not really see the point of giving them any special recognition, that only means they are looking for special treatment.

They have obtained this recognition already.

Hellm0

mountainyman wrote: »

They have obtained this recognition already.

Huzzah

thegoth

AHHHHH. If the employment rate and crime committed rate amoung travellers was the same as the rest of the community, they can do whatever else they like and call themselves whatever they like

turgon

They can form their independent state if they want. I give it 24 hours before it collapses, in part due to the 80% unemployment rate in this "group".

thegoth

turgon wrote: »

They can form their independent state if they want. I give it 24 hours before it collapses, in part due to the 80% unemployment rate in this "group".

Don't be so certain. I'd be pretty sure that they would manage to successfully apply for some aid package that nobody else has even heard of from the EU or UN,and they would live off that. Then when other countries applied, they would not get it !!!

billy the squid

I would be in support of any move to recognise travellers as an ethnic group, given that they meet the criteria of common history, language, and culture.

Travellers were around a lot earlier than the famine, and Cromwell, although I would take the whole crucifiction thing with a pinch of salt. For that to happen they would have had to come from the middle east at some point, and I have yet to see any evidence of this.

rien_du_tout

Whether they are an ethnic group or not is largely irrelevant coz the equality legislation sets them up as a protected grouping separate but equal with ethnic minorities. I personally don't see them as an ethnic subset mainly due to a lack of genetic heritage.
My understanding of why certain gypsy groups are considered ethnic groupings is coz they not only have a shared culture but shared genealogy and were at one point a homogeneous community. This is something our traveling community lacks.
I think it would be interesting to have a poll on this issue coz from people I've talked to, most would consider them Irish, but there's obviously a divide when legislation is required to safeguard them against discrimination.

Seán

Darragh29

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the criteria for being defined as a distinct ethnic subset? No real point in having a discussion unless that's agreed on.

True, ethnicity involves where your DNA originates from and your ancestoral lineage, (www.ftdna.com). Clearly travellers are as Irish as the rest of us, arguably more so than the rest of us in my opinion, so I'd answer your question with a no, they do not meet any genetic criteria that could be used for being considered to be a distinct ethnic subset.

If they are not different in terms of their ethnicity with respect to the island they live in and the rest of us living here, then it is difficult to see how they are an ethnic minority.

Having said that, I do believe they have their own culture as a group of Irish people with their own unique identity, much like Orangemen (and whether they are Irish or not is for another day!), or people living on the Aran Islands, and we should be accomodative of that culture and identity.

I also think that they have major problems within their community and its long past time that they dealt with these issues.

mountainyman

An ethnic group is a group recognised at law as an ethnic group. Fair play to travellers for getting this recognition. They are in fact the most Irish of us all.

milmo

They're not a separate ethnic group. It's just clever political maneuvering by the usual quangos

sink

ART6 wrote: »

Gypsies have long been considered that way, not as far as I am aware for any legislative reason but more as a result of custom and practise. If we give the same status to travellers then we might as well say that anyone from Wexford is an ethnic subset. Giving special status to anyone on the basis of some perceived ethnic difference is highly dagerous and devisive in my view. If you live in this country then you are either Irish of an accepted immigrant expected to live under our laws, customs, and practises. End of.

The Romany are a distinct racial group. It is believed they emigrated to eastern Europe from north western India/Pakistan over a long period beginning around 3000 years ago. They speak a unique language and have a darker skin tone to the slavic/latin peoples that make up the majority of Bulgarians and Romanians. Their ethnic status is not in any doubt.

In comparison Irish travellers are almost racially identical to the rest of the Irish population and only differ culturally. They have developed unique genetic traits over the past few centuries through marrying only within their own communities. Their culture evolved only relatively recently around the 18th century. There is no accurate estimate of when they became as distinct group but there are no records of them existing for much longer than that.

WexfordMusings

Being a memebr of the travelling community is already recognised in Irish law as one of the "9 groups".

I'm sure we could nitpick through all of these groups and find issues we dont like in each of them, eg (please done berate me for list below am being sarcastic - tongue in cheek and all that!)

Old people need more financial aid in regards to health care - apart from the fact that they paid tax for a gazillion years

The gay guy in the office thinks i'm cute and keeps loking at my ass - get over yourself, your not that cute

The traveller doesnt work - well how many of us are reading this blog in work!

The person with a different religion gets a couple of days off in the year i dont - oh my GAWD!

Young people are discriminated against - bloody right, you can have babies when your 16 but not vote until 18 so there

I'm a woman and they wont give me a job - you dont want it anyway, you'll get paid less and theres the glass ceiling

I'm married and am treated differently - well you have enough problems as it is and think yourself lucky at least you can get marrried

I'm disabled - well hang on and I'll help you up the steps in your wheelchair...

Bottom Line

Our elected officials enacted legislation that makes it illegal for people to be discriminated against and do you know why - because they are discriminated against and we will have to change things but it wont happen over night.

I say congratulations to people who can band together and help build their community with the ways/means that are available to them.

regards

John Ryan
Director
Equality Alliance of Gays & Lesbians in Eire.