Would you recommend a career in teaching, given the current economic climate?

Tom Dunne

The only real insight to the teaching profession is what I read on this forum.

To me, the impression I get is that it would be utterly ludicrous for anyone to consider a career in teaching in the current climate, given the lack of prospects in securing a temporary position, never mind a permanent position. Am I right, or am I wrong?

Aside from the notion of a fulfilling career, would you encourage a person to consider a career in teaching? Or would you say that it is just not a viable career option right now?

Not trying to be provocative or anything, just curious.

TheDriver

No way in the world as the queues to get into the profession are very long, everyone is expecting a job and cutbacks are taking place. I got in during the boom when everyone said i was mad to leave my job in industry but now whos mad!
Great job, both as a job and also to be permanent but wouldn't recommend anyone into it. Theres already plenty of qualified teachers lying idle.

carl-sagan

if you want to teach then go for it..

Tom Dunne

carl-sagan wrote: »

if you want to teach then go for it..

Even the way things are with a slim to remote possibility of landing a job, never mind a full-time one?

kittex

If you have an inkling to teach and travel, then there's never been a better time.
Many other countries are doing what economists recommend and investing in physical and intellectual infrastructure to help keep things ticking over.

There are loads of jobs to be had in America, (generally the Southern states), England (not the rest of the UK), Australia (where I am going), New Zealand and elsewhere in Europe. The demand for teachers to teach UK MoD kids in bases in Europe has been pretty high too (what with the 'wars' and increased recruitment) if you could put up with that sort of thing.

Teach in Ireland? Nope. Been trying to find work here for 2 years and it's depressing. Had loads and loads of offers and positive feedback, but you're talking 3 hours here, 6 hours there. I've had to turn them down as I can't afford to hang on, barely working, in the hope that someone goes off on maternity and I just might get proper hours.

Shame.

carl-sagan

sorry my reply may have been a little impulsive..I guess taking into account the current economic climate the chance of landing a premanent job look doubtful. But if you really want to do it then throw practicality aside and say to hell with ,im going to become a teacher. Question is do you want to teach for the money and obvious perks of the job or because you really would like to teach full stop. Its prob a mixture of both but why not throw cauttion to the wind and go do it. Maybe spell teaching abroad could be the way to go. I apologise Tom as im rambling away here, and iwas going to try and be concise about this.

Tom Dunne

carl-sagan wrote: »

sorry my reply may have been a little impulsive..I guess taking into account the current economic climate the chance of landing a premanent job look doubtful. But if you really want to do it then throw practicality aside and say to hell with ,im going to become a teacher. Question is do you want to teach for the money and obvious perks of the job or because you really would like to teach full stop. Its prob a mixture of both but why not throw cauttion to the wind and go do it. Maybe spell teaching abroad could be the way to go.

Don't get me wrong - I am not considering teaching. I have my sights set higher. Lecturing is what I want to do, but I have given up any hope of getting a position on the next 5-10 years, so I am stuck in the 9-5 grind until then.

I think it is dangerous situation to be in where there are a couple of hundred teachers qualifying each year, and the only option to them is a plane out of this country.

TheDriver

carl-sagan wrote: »

sorry my reply may have been a little impulsive..I guess taking into account the current economic climate the chance of landing a premanent job look doubtful. But if you really want to do it then throw practicality aside and say to hell with ,im going to become a teacher. Question is do you want to teach for the money and obvious perks of the job or because you really would like to teach full stop. Its prob a mixture of both but why not throw cauttion to the wind and go do it. Maybe spell teaching abroad could be the way to go. I apologise Tom as im rambling away here, and iwas going to try and be concise about this.

Thats all well and good but there are so many people qualified and can't get jobs that they actually live on, only picking up small number of hours. And with Batt having his way ultimately, who knows what the future holds. Its absolute rubbish when someone teaches for the love of teaching, i teach because its a job i love but ultimately its for the conditions that go with it as its still ajob at the end of the day that supports the rest of my lifestyle. Anyone who spends all night and weekend doing notes etc lives for teaching and youfind they burn themselves out or find they are left with nothing other than their job after it all, job being the work. Tom Dunne stated "as a career" and people need to realise picking up a few years experience abroad need to be prepared to sta y abroad if they want to stay teaching.

carl-sagan

TheDriver wrote: »

Thats all well and good but there are so many people qualified and can't get jobs that they actually live on, only picking up small number of hours. And with Batt having his way ultimately, who knows what the future holds. Its absolute rubbish when someone teaches for the love of teaching, i teach because its a job i love but ultimately its for the conditions that go with it as its still ajob at the end of the day that supports the rest of my lifestyle. Anyone who spends all night and weekend doing notes etc lives for teaching and youfind they burn themselves out or find they are left with nothing other than their job after it all, job being the work. Tom Dunne stated "as a career" and people need to realise picking up a few years experience abroad need to be prepared to sta y abroad if they want to stay teaching.

you make some good points there, i wont disagree.

freire

This kinda question has been done a few times on this forum in recent times. For what it's worth I reckon the key to ensuring employment is subject choice at primary degree level. Look at the teachers who are scratching around for a few hours here and there and struggling even at that and I think you'll find they are competing in a seriously over subscribed environment. In UCD last year there were at least 25% of the course quota in English with a lot of those with History. That's gotta be tough on leaving and entering into the job market. I feel if you've got a more obscure degree which allows you to teach in majority of schools eg a language, not German, or maths or science you should do well. Also when you do your PGDE get involved in the school extra curricular activities - sports, panto, clubs etc and study groups, be dynamic and stand out. Above all be lucky!

If you want to teach you'll succeed in the end and it's ''bleeding deadly'', fantastic job - keeps you young in the long run.

rainbowtrout

freire wrote: »

This kinda question has been done a few times on this forum in recent times. For what it's worth I reckon the key to ensuring employment is subject choice at primary degree level. Look at the teachers who are scratching around for a few hours here and there and struggling even at that and I think you'll find they are competing in a seriously over subscribed environment. In UCD last year there were at least 25% of the course quota in English with a lot of those with History. That's gotta be tough on leaving and entering into the job market. I feel if you've got a more obscure degree which allows you to teach in majority of schools eg a language, not German, or maths or science you should do well. Also when you do your PGDE get involved in the school extra curricular activities - sports, panto, clubs etc and study groups, be dynamic and stand out. Above all be lucky!

If you want to teach you'll succeed in the end and it's ''bleeding deadly'', fantastic job - keeps you young in the long run.

i wish i could agree with you freire and a couple of years ago I would have. But there aren't m/any jobs out there in any subject at the moment. There's little or nothing in science. While most of my friends have steady teaching jobs there are a number who have not been so lucky. One of my friends has been doing the route of subbing/sick leave/secondments/maternity leaves since we left college 8 years ago and is beginning to wonder what to do as teaching is all she knows, yet she can't get a job with a contract, so is faced with a new staff & students, a new set of rules and regulations, subjects and very often a new town and housemates every year and sometimes twice a year. Even though she is getting regular work, it's back to doing summer work each year and not being able to settle anywhere because she's on the move again a few months later. It's pretty demoralising. She's at the point where she wonders if she should persevere and hope for a contract or give up and try and retrain to do something else.

another friend is commuting to dublin from roscommon to teach everyday because she can't get a job even within 90 minutes from here in any direction. She's well qualified, taught in Australia and here, has a PhD. She's lucky she has a job but at serious expense to her quality of life.

I know they are isolated cases but there are plenty more like them. both are science teachers by the way.

i also think that HDip students are somewhat misguided through no fault of their own in thinking that once they qualify there will be a job for them and it isn't so... there are too many qualifying every year and there simply aren't enough jobs to sustain them all, not jobs that have enough hours to live on without another form of income anyway.

I also think there has been a bg swing away from courses like computing over the last number of years and of course in the last year construction and related areas because of the way the economy has gone. The course i originally did in teaching in UL has been hanging around the 360-380 points mark for a number of years now and this year shot up to 470. I think students leaving school this year were perhaps returning to the notion of a secure, dependable, permanent pensionable job, which of course isn't the reality. But a 17 year old LC student doesn't know what goes on behind the scenes and wouldn't ever stop to think that teachers would be on different contracts etc because we all do the same job in their eyes.


Having said that it's a great job and I love what I do and I'm one of the lucky ones (permanent) but I wouldn't be too optimistic for this years graduates in landing contracts in large numbers. It will be ok for the younger graduates who perhaps went in straight from their degree and have little commitments, financial or otherwise but for a mature student who has decided to become a teacher it might be that bit harder to be subbing on irregular income if there's children and mortgages etc involved.

Sir Humphrey

There are a number of factors which hinder the teaching trade and those who want to join it.

One is that is it too easy to qualify as a teacher i.e. do the PGDE. All it takes is one academic year and I think many do so as an alternative to having to make a trickier decision at the time.

The problem here is that people with completely unrealistic teaching prospects can easily get through the net and not have a hope in hell of getting regular work with their subjects. And it is not true to imply that there are the same problems getting teaching work in all subjects. Subject choice matters hugely but many don't consider this when they set out on their degree course and that's why you get so many history graduates and the like who will never get employment. Perhaps a two-year course with reduced number and a much more rigorous system by which to identify potential teachers would produce greater effect.

But people also need to be realistic in relation to qualifications. Not for the first time, I see on this thread mention of someone having a Phd. So what?

A Phd gives you deep knowledge in a very narrow area which might not be covered at all in the secondary curriculum, and if it is certainly will not require someone with that depth of research done to teach it.

As far as I can see, however impressed some people may be by a Phd, it is often only slightly less relevant to the job of school caretaker than it is to the work of the teacher. Anyone who thinks that it will have the remotest positive impact on their teaching employment prospects is in cloud cuckoo land.

In fact it is possible that it may have a negative impact in that they might come across to schools as people merely biding time before inevitably pursuing something more germane to their qualification. It is a farce that such an unnecessary embellishment qualification is worth so many points on the PGDE application.

Similarly, someone on one of these threads in the past few days mentioned that they were doing a TEFL course which - along with whatever teaching experience garnered in teaching it during the summer - "might look good on the CV". Again, this is rather unrealistic. The only place a TEFL qualification will be a deal-maker or deal-breaker will be for a TEFL job. A qualification acquired over a few weeks will have obvious limitations and will cut little ice with school authorities if your teaching subjects are not what they require.

There are problems within teaching itself too which cause career problems for new teachers. The ease with which career-breakers can hold up positions in schools for years is a joke. Also - to go back on something I touched on earlier - the Department of Education could insist a bit more that people accepted onto the PGDE courses are bringing to the table subject areas which reasonably reflect schools' requirements. Of course, because the profession is over-subscribed they don't need to do this, and it is a very handy way to fund universities - at €6 grand a pop - without raiding the exchequer, but it would do everyone a favour. Schools would not be bombarded with CVs which are well wide of the goalposts, and it would also help to weed out people with totally unrealistic teaching ambitions and help avoid disappointment down the road.

It also has to be said that if the teaching council's insistence that people have to be properly qualified to teach subjects - i.e. you teach only what your degree qualifies you to teach - was actually adhered to in all schools, rather than having teachers bluffing their way through subjects with which they are not familiar, not only would the standard of teaching rise with specialist teachers, but obviously more positions would be available.

All that being said, it is the case with most jobs these days that 'permanent/pensionable' does not come into it. Law and journalism are two that spring to mind. Staff jobs in journalism are like hen's teeth. But teachers are lucky in that there is relative mobility in their work. Someone mentioned a girl moving to a different town every year. Okay, it is not ideal, but what other job would afford you the ability to actually do that? Yet, many other types of job feature the instability and unpredictibility but not the huge variety of workplaces to choose from.

It seems to me quite likely that in the future teachers will work from contract to contract as the norm. Maybe a reappraisal of expectations is necessary in the teaching business, and I do not mean this as an implied criticism of teaching conditions by the way.

For what it's worth, I would suggest to people to make a realistic assessment of their prospects with particular reference to their subject areas and do so by doing wide research i.e. talk to principals, look at job offers and trends etc. Do not rely on what you read here too much because while I am sure every word written here is offered with genuine intent and honesty, most individuals will have a very limited range of experience.

And if you decide that there are serious prospects for you within the context of how the profession is going generally - the economic downturn will not last forever - then stick with it. But be realistic; if you are going to be able to teach only English, History and CSPE, your employability will be zero while if you can teach, for example, Irish and Maths, demand for you skills will be relatively high.

Another thing to bear in mind is that because of the recession prospects in all areas in the short-term are not great so deciding teaching is not for you because you cannot get an ideal working arrangement does not mean that you will easily find gainful employment in another sphere.

Toto Wolfcastle

I had this conversation yesterday with a teacher who has been teaching for over 25 years. I was speaking to her as one of the two newly qualified teachers who were offered permanent contracts upon finishing the PGDE. Both of us felt that now is completely the wrong time to get into teaching.

The PGDE has been accepting far too many students for years as it is. For years, teachers have been starting the PGDE knowing that it could possibly take years to find a permanent job. For a long time, teachers have been relying on subbing hours wherever they were available. It has, for a long time, been a risk to go into teaching.

Now, since the budget, things are far far worse. The 2.7 million for subbing/supervision is estimated to last through January at most. Once that money runs out, subbing work will be scarce. So teachers will not even have that to fall back on.

People need to be realistic about teaching. Out of the people who qualified last year that I have spoken to, the majority found it extremely difficult to find any sort of work. There are people who I work with who survive on semi-regular subbing hours because they can't find anything else.

Unless the numbers of people being accepted into the PGDE are decreased, and until the subject choices of prospective teachers are taken into account, I would be very wary about going into teaching. There is no point in taking in 90 students with English degrees because there simply aren't the jobs available.

I know that because I am newly qualified, this will seem strange, but there is no way I would recommend that people go into teaching at this time.

freire

janeybabe wrote: »

Unless the numbers of people being accepted into the PGDE are decreased, and until the subject choices of prospective teachers are taken into account, I would be very wary about going into teaching.

I have to agree on the numbers being accepted into teaching courses. There are too many unfulfilled dreams and expectations. On my first day into UCD I was a little late and entered into a lecture theatre and immediately turned tail, convinced I had the wrong place. In my innocence I presumed it to be a much smaller number admitted. We've all heard about how hard it is to gain admittance to these things and how people try two and three times before success. On my exit the course director was at a desk and asked me if I was there for the PGDE. I simply could not believe the numbers and asked if there were really jobs for all these people to which I received a hesitant 'yes'.

To my knowledge quite a few are still looking for work. But like I said in a previous post, there is no shortage of English grads and positions like this are hotly contested. Subject choice is very important.

TheDriver

there is also the issue that people with physics degrees for example getting a 2.2 (which is excellent) not being able to get the Dip because of points yet its full of other subjects because they all have 1h degrees hence why its difficult to get certain teachers still.

bethm24

This country is starting to piss me off. There seem to be a zillion teachers hovering around Ireland with no jobs? And then they are increaing class sizes .Cuts etc:mad:

Powerhouse

The comments below from the last two posts cover much the same issue - the inability of the authorities to create the remotest connection between teaching supply and demand and make people aware of it.

As far as the universities are concered it's a nice money-spinner and caveat emptor for the student who is willing to part with 6/7 grand to do PGDE. It's not for them to speculate as to your job prospects. But it seems unfair that so many no-hopers in employment terms are encouraged into the job.

I also have the feeling that far more people get into the PGDE on the basis of points garnered from teaching hours/other post-grad studies than get in there with firsts.

It also seems ludricous that a Masters (in anything it seems) offers so many points as to guarantee entry to the PGDE, yet the salary allowance does not reflect this value. I realise that the Dept of Education and the Universities are independent entities but surely there should be some kind of relationship between the value of a Masters in salary terms and its value in terms of the PGDE points? And what I am getting at here is that I don't undestand why is the value so high in terms of the PGDE - and I say that as a Master's holder by the way!



"there is also the issue that people with physics degrees for example getting a 2.2 (which is excellent) not being able to get the Dip because of points yet its full of other subjects because they all have 1h degrees hence why its difficult to get certain teachers still."

"This country is starting to piss me off. There seem to be a zillion teachers hovering around Ireland with no jobs? And then they are increaing class sizes .Cuts etc"

Toto Wolfcastle

I worries me that I hear of so many people who are planning on going into teaching having lost jobs (or who have the threat of losing their jobs hanging over them) because they believe that it is a secure job to have during the recession. People need to realise that, yes, it is a secure enough job, but that's only once you get yourself a permanent job, or one with a view to permanency.

TheDriver

Which is impossible to get at moment, its luck if you get hours in the current climate!

Toto Wolfcastle

TheDriver wrote: »

Which is impossible to get at moment, its luck if you get hours in the current climate!

Exactly. Our school has subs who have been unable to get hours anywhere else since qualifying.

I really don't understand why this is not spelled out to people who want to do the PGDE. Ideally they would decrease the numbers accepted, but at the very least an explicit warning should be given, because people don't seem to know how difficult it is to get hours.

TheDriver

and they get awful annoyed and cranky becasue they didn't realise its so bad, all the country thinks its easy to get into, easy job and great "free" pension! Its nothing like guards and nurses who have much easier routes into the workplace

Powerhouse

janeybabe wrote: »

I really don't understand why this is not spelled out to people who want to do the PGDE. Ideally they would decrease the numbers accepted, but at the very least an explicit warning should be given, because people don't seem to know how difficult it is to get hours.

I don't know why you don't understand - it's a no-brainer. It's all about vested interests. If you want to understand why people do or do not do things in a situation where there is money sloshing around you should alwyas examine the matter by considering what their incentives are. People's behaviour is nearly always governed by incentives or lack of them and in this case it is no different. The different bodies keep quiet on this matter because their incentives suggest they should.

The universities make a lot of money from PGDE applicants. For them to take applicants aside and advise them against doing the course or dampen their enthusiasm for it would be like the ice-cream man telling kids that it's not really that hot and buying ice-cream is not really a good idea. It's money for old rope for the universites. The course is obviously relatively cheap to provide with no major equipment needed - at six grand a go the marginal cost to the university of teaching another student after the first 40/50 is probably zero. The students will spend more time in their school than they will in college yet they pay through the nose for the course in their thousands. Why on earth would a university endanger a veritable licence to print money by telling a few home truths about something (jobs) which is ultimately none of their concern? They would see that as a matter for government whihc is the body which will have to pay unemployment benefit to people who cannot gets jobs............which brings us nicely onto the other vested interest.

The Department of Education will not advise anyone against doing it for two reasons, 1) it keeps numbers of teachers up which means that the government can keep salaries down because of excess demand, (in what other job would a university graduate earn a basic salary of only 63k after 25 odd years!) and 2) if the universities cannot attract funding by continuing to take far more candidates than there are jobs for, the government will be forced to stump up more funding to make up the shortfall instead, and at a stretch perhaps pay unemployment benefit to those who would otherwise have taken the PGDE course. The potential cost saving to the government of having a student studying for this course could be thousands upon thousands especially when you consider that they teach classes for free as part of their course obligation, which frees up other teachers to do other things and probably saves employing a substitute teacher on many days.

So both parties (government and universities) have a massive vested interest in the status quo.

If anyone should kick up a fuss it is the teacher unions.

Powerhouse

TheDriver wrote: »

and they get awful annoyed and cranky becasue they didn't realise its so bad, all the country thinks its easy to get into, easy job and great "free" pension! Its nothing like guards and nurses who have much easier routes into the workplace

I don't know much about nursing but there is indeed no comparison between teachers and guards. The need for extra guards is identified by government and because the government pays for the training they are trained only as they are needed which is why you'll never see an umemployed copper.

The problem for teaching is that the training is paid for by the prospective teacher, so it costs the government diddley-squat, and therefore there is no incentive to cap numbers. If Garda training was provided by a third-party and paid for by the candidates instead of the government you'd have that job over-subscribed too. And obviously the converse holds for the training of teachers - if the governement had to pay for their training the number trained would probably fit nice and snugly into the jobs available.

freire

Some interesting and valid points here. Nice train of thought.

Dr Bill Cullen

I got sick of all the subbing; I am a qualified Science and maths teacher since 2004.
I was getting married so I decided that I would not let my wife suffer the worry of me having little work and little income and left the profession. I miss it every day but I now have a post graduate engineering qualification and I am better paid and satisfied in my work(not worried about the recession, i am well insulated).
People here think I was crazy to give up teaching, with the usual response being about the "Great Holidays". My response is that if you are in the job for the holidays then you won’t last and it is not a good reason to be a teacher, nor is it fair to the students.
There is an over supply of secondary teachers, I think a good idea would be to offer a conversion course (curriculum upgrade)for secondary school teachers to teach primary, it would get more males into the primary school sector and you could have more science and maths teachers giving students a love of the subject at an early age.
I think the interview process for teaching jobs in Ireland is a disgrace, jobs for the boys, nepotism, and highly dubious recruitment policies, there is a lot to learn from the private sector especially within the quality management area.
A word the teaching profession could learn from the private sector is "Continual Improvement” and Kaizen (Change for the better).

ebmma

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

Not for the first time, I see on this thread mention of someone having a Phd. So what?

Most colleges require PhD students to do tutorials for a class (sometimes several different ones) and labs for undergraduate students.

Which is pretty useful skill when it comes to teaching. Also the way 1st year (I can only speak for science) is structured, it is a repetition of leaving cert.
Some lab practicals mirror those of LC too.
So PhD students essentially teach classes leaving cert level of the subject.

It is not the same as teaching in school, but I it is definitely useful.

TheDriver

Dr Bill Cullen wrote: »

I think a good idea would be to offer a conversion course (curriculum upgrade)for secondary school teachers to teach primary, it would get more males into the primary school sector and you could have more science and maths teachers giving students a love of the subject at an early age.

Hibernia and MaryI postgrad course both offer anyone with a degree to go forth and convert into Education which is basically a conversion course for primary teaching

Dr Bill Cullen

TheDriver wrote: »

Hibernia and MaryI postgrad course both offer anyone with a degree to go forth and convert into Education which is basically a conversion course for primary teaching

No it is a one year course, and you need honours irish,and you are basically learning the same thing the only difference being the curriculum and the a small piece of the educational psychology.
I know this as my wife trained as a hibernia teacher the same time as i did my H dip, iwe had practically the same notes, in history of ed, philosophy of ed, psychology of ed.

My point is that you are trained by an accredated course and institution, so you should only have to do the courses that are different.
A doctor would not have to redo a whole 7 years of university to switch from a surgeon to a GP. A nurse would not have to redo their degree to go from midwifery to geriatrics they would just have to re train in their specialist fields.

Dudess

This thread seems to be focusing only on post-primary. What about primary? Situation as bad? (I know it has certainly disimproved).

ytareh

Powerhouse for Taoiseach !

MissHoneyBun

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Aside from the notion of a fulfilling career, would you encourage a person to consider a career in teaching? Or would you say that it is just not a viable career option right now?
Not trying to be provocative or anything, just curious.

I don't want to sound smart arsed here but I am increasingly amused at the amount of people at the moment who think "Ah i'll go do teaching, it's a safe handy number" I'm sorry but that's just not how it works, not in relation to primary teaching anyway. Teaching is by and large a vocation -you're either cut out for it or you're not, so lately to hear all and sundry waffle about "considering teaching" as though it's a recessionary free for all just leaves me bewildered. As anyone who has gone through the system will readily agree, qualifying as a teacher is an intense and challenging process, not to be taken lightly. So to suggest that people should simply "consider a career in teaching" due to the "current economic climate" only serves to undermine the profession and highlight the naiviety of the unprecedented masses now considering this route.

Despite the cynicism, boards of management are obliged to restrict entry to B.Ed courses not for economic reasons but as a duty of care to the thousands of children who are indebted to the services of the teachers produced by these colleges. Therefore the entry process alone rightly involves numerous written applications, interviews, aptitude tests and orals and even then pends the approval of strict Garda vetting. I won't get in to the intricacies of the B.Ed course, suffice to say that even those from the 600 points stable have crumbled under the pressure and not made it to graduation day.

I guess my point is that teaching is a difficult job, one that presents unforeseen challenges all the way from TP to retirement. I often hear mums and dads comment on the difficulties of looking after children -well multiply that by thirty and include their formal education and you have some idea of what it is to teach children every day. Please give that responsibility the respect it deserves.

Powerhouse

MissHoneyBun wrote: »

I don't want to sound smart arsed here but I am increasingly amused at the amount of people at the moment who think "Ah i'll go do teaching, it's a safe handy number" I'm sorry but that's just not how it works, not in relation to primary teaching anyway. Teaching is by and large a vocation -you're either cut out for it or you're not, so lately to hear all and sundry waffle about "considering teaching" as though it's a recessionary free for all just leaves me bewildered. As anyone who has gone through the system will readily agree, qualifying as a teacher is an intense and challenging process, not to be taken lightly. So to suggest that people should simply "consider a career in teaching" due to the "current economic climate" only serves to undermine the profession and highlight the naiviety of the unprecedented masses now considering this route.

Despite the cynicism, boards of management are obliged to restrict entry to B.Ed courses not for economic reasons but as a duty of care to the thousands of children who are indebted to the services of the teachers produced by these colleges. Therefore the entry process alone rightly involves numerous written applications, interviews, aptitude tests and orals and even then pends the approval of strict Garda vetting. I won't get in to the intricacies of the B.Ed course, suffice to say that even those from the 600 points stable have crumbled under the pressure and not made it to graduation day.

I guess my point is that teaching is a difficult job, one that presents unforeseen challenges all the way from TP to retirement. I often hear mums and dads comment on the difficulties of looking after children -well multiply that by thirty and include their formal education and you have some idea of what it is to teach children every day. Please give that responsibility the respect it deserves.

In fairness, this quite misrepresents Tom Dunne's initial post. He did not 'suggest that people should simply "consider a career in teaching" due to the "current economic climate"'.

What he asked was in fact the opposite, as I understand it. He was asking if people would consider a career in teaching despite the current economic climate where teaching prospects are taking a direct hit.

And, yes, it is true that that there is a disconcertingly high number of people who appear to suddenly decide "I'd like to do teaching" - but what's the harm in that? Not everybody is certain at 17 years of age what they want to do. The difficulty for people who decide later is that they often don't seem to consider employment prospects.

As for people not realising it's a vocation - people go into all sorts of jobs for the wrong reasons. Most 17 year olds probably become doctors because they or their parents like the money potential. Others become journalists because they want to change the world and think that the glamour attached to 0.0000001% of journalists is the norm. These may not be suited to their job, but they go in there and teaching is hardly immune from this reality.

Fast_Mover

Qualified last May with my B.Ed. Got a temporary job in the September. My school is losing a teacher due to increased class numbers, so as I was last in I'm out there in June! Going to be a bundle of fun sending out all those C.V's/S.A.E's looking for another job during the summer..and I'v my Dip to do aswell! Alot of my friends are in the same boat (minus the previous sentence as they're in the middle of theirs) The Girls school in the area should of been gaining a teacher but not now due to class numbers increase again.
Personally I wouldn't recommend anyone a job in teaching when there's not even jobs out there for the qualified people!!

Rodar08

I have to say the point above regarding people 'considering teaching' and not realising it is a vocation is not too accurate. I 'considered' it and I didn't realise I would be so good. I haven't dreamed from the age of 7 that I was going to be a mary poppins/secondary school amazment, no i did not! BUT one day I thought 'hm! Maybe I could try teaching!' So I did and realised that I love it. Anybody can decide to change career or just one day 'consider teaching'. I'm not permanent, far from it. I'm subbing - hence my next rant ............

So on a different note - it is not a job I would consider now - I am almost qualified and if I had known what I know now - I probably wouldn't have done the PGDE. I am now planning on going into another field (when I say another field I mean possibly selling sweets on a market stall - nothing too glitzy but more chance of earning a living than with teaching !) but am glad I will have the qualification to hopefully come back to teaching if things ever pick up and a job ever becomes available in it.

.................... the real reason I wanted to post was this .............some of you might not believe me and some of you may be familiar with this sort of 'behaviour' is all I can think to call it but ............

I just found out today that the school that I have been subbing at now for a long while, due to bad weather last week when a few teachers were off, actually took 6th year girls out of their classes to supervise other classes!! I JUST CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!!!!!!!! I needn't even bother to explain why I can't believe this. A 3rd year I spoke to said she had a 6th year girl supervise 3 of her classes that day. Outrageous.:eek:

Powerhouse

Rodar08 wrote: »

I have to say the point above regarding people 'considering teaching' and not realising it is a vocation is not too accurate. I 'considered' it and I didn't realise I would be so good. I haven't dreamed from the age of 7 that I was going to be a mary poppins/secondary school amazment, no i did not! BUT one day I thought 'hm! Maybe I could try teaching!' So I did and realised that I love it. Anybody can decide to change career or just one day 'consider teaching'. I'm not permanent, far from it. I'm subbing - hence my next rant ............

So on a different note - it is not a job I would consider now - I am almost qualified and if I had known what I know now - I probably wouldn't have done the PGDE. I am now planning on going into another field (when I say another field I mean possibly selling sweets on a market stall - nothing too glitzy but more chance of earning a living than with teaching !) but am glad I will have the qualification to hopefully come back to teaching if things ever pick up and a job ever becomes available in it.

I would have to agree with your point on the vocation aspect of it. I thought the other poster gilded that particular lily a bit too much, but I didn't want to contradict every point that was made. There are plenty of people who would probably be very good teachers and who don't get the 'tip on the shoulder' from destiny, while we all have come across teachers who would make you wonder about destiny's judgement in these matters.

As for teaching not being a good choice employment-wise - the good news is that within twelve months it'll be seen to have better prospects than most jobs in that it will at least employ somebody.

With the banks having no money we are heading into a dark place where we could have up to 20% unemployment for at least a decade. Don't expect things to pick up in the traditional sense of that term for a generation. We might claw our way from economic oblivion to mere catastrophe but it would be folly to expect better.

Dudess

janeybabe wrote: »

worries me that I hear of so many people who are planning on going into teaching having lost jobs (or who have the threat of losing their jobs hanging over them) because they believe that it is a secure job to have during the recession.

It would indicate a serious lack of research first and foremost, because there do not seem to be the jobs in secondary teaching. Even four or five years ago - height of the boom, pre-education cuts - I knew people qualified to teach subjects like English and history who had to move to the UK to get a job. I have a relation who is a vice principal and he says it's next to impossible.
But as I was asking, primary teaching - is it as difficult on the jobs front as secondary?

BoozyBabe

I'm slightly annoyed at MissHoneyBun's post. Well, annoyed is probably too strong a word, but I don't like that big brush she's tarring everyone with!!

So, I come on here & I say, 'oh, I'm going to become a teacher' & there she is in the background rolling her eyes up to Heaven saying 'here we go, another one looking for an easy number'.

So yes, the recession is here & it just so happens this is the exact same time that I start my HDip with Hibernia. Is this the reason why I'm starting the course? Absolutely not. In fact it's bad luck for me that the recession has hit now, when it's going to be very hard for me to get a job in 18months due to all the cutbacks & qualified teachers looking for jobs.

Truth is, my Irish wasn't great, so I was told to move down from Honours after 1st year. When it came to filling my CAO I didn't have the option of going for teaching, though I'd have liked to. So, I followed a career in IT. I considered it after my degree, but again I let the Irish qualification put me off. I worked in IT for a few years. Decided to leave my job, & thought again of my desire to teach, but I couldn't go to the UK & again I didn't think I'd a chance of getting the Irish qualification. I changed jobs, worked for another 2 years & again realised IT was not the career for me & again I'd a calling for teaching.

That was over 2 years ago! Long before the recession hit. I put everything I had into learning Irish from scratch, getting myself up to a standard good enough to repeat my Hons Irish LC exam. Travelling a 4hour round trip every Sat to do so, going to the Gaeltacht, doing conversational classes, & studying every night after a hard days work. I got my Irish qualification last Aug. I then applied to Hibernia & my Irish was good enough to be offered a place.

It's not my fault that my start date just happens to be during the recession where people around me are losing their jobs.

To say that all these people are only considering a teaching career now due to the recession is hurtful to me personally, due to the amount of work I've done to get here, & the amount of work I'm going to have to do to come out the other side a qualified teacher.
It was not a decision I made lightly, to give up a career I've spent the last 10 years building up for myself to start back at the beginning again in unknown surroundings.

Rant over.

To the op. I might live to regret it, but teaching has been on my mind for way too long for me to ignore it now due to the current economy.
I'd to pay €8k just after Xmas, & it was worrying enough to do that, as I don't know if I'll be able to stay in my job, or if I'll be out of work trying to find non-existant subbing, but I HAVE to go for it. I've been given a chance I've always wanted, & I just have to take it.

Looking at it another way, when I come out the otherside qualified, I'll have two qualifications to use in order to find employment. If I can't get teaching to begin with, I could still get IT, possibly

Anyway, I've rambled on enough now.
All the best,
BB

Tom Dunne

Powerhouse wrote: »

In fairness, this quite misrepresents Tom Dunne's initial post. He did not 'suggest that people should simply "consider a career in teaching" due to the "current economic climate"'.

What he asked was in fact the opposite, as I understand it. He was asking if people would consider a career in teaching despite the current economic climate where teaching prospects are taking a direct hit..

Absolutely. Thank you for clarifying.

I am not for a moment suggesting teaching is the refuge of the redundant, I am asking if people who do see it as a vocation and are of the calibre for it should be dissuaded from considering a career in teaching, giving the severe lack of jobs.

Dudess

Rodar08 wrote: »

one day I thought 'hm! Maybe I could try teaching!' So I did and realised that I love it. Anybody can decide to change career or just one day 'consider teaching'.

Yeah I had that lightbulb moment last summer - teaching seems pretty logical for me when I take into consideration what I'm good at/my passion for education. Wish I'd realised it earlier. :mad:
There is a possibility I'll be out of work later this year - if so, I'll definitely try to get some subbing with a view to going for Hibernia. I know there are bugger all jobs though...

I just found out today that the school that I have been subbing at now for a long while, due to bad weather last week when a few teachers were off, actually took 6th year girls out of their classes to supervise other classes!! I JUST CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!!!!!!!! I needn't even bother to explain why I can't believe this. A 3rd year I spoke to said she had a 6th year girl supervise 3 of her classes that day. Outrageous.:eek:

Aw, what? Certainly seems to contradict the stories I hear of all these qualified secondary teachers unable to get a job. Ridiculous.

malpas

Interesting and informative forum.. I'm not a teacher but my daughter is interested in it as her career. Any opinions on retired teachers going back teaching in their old school?..I know of two instances but have no idea if this is the general norm in schools. If such is the case it seems unfair to all young teachers trying to get hours/a job in these difficult times.

Dudess

Good point. My friend's mum does it. I suppose though, it's more desirable to have someone you know doing it - plus with plenty of experience. Makes life easier for the principal or whomever has to sort out the fill-in.

TheDriver

The reason retired people do subbing is because they are allowed under their pension agreement to do some subbing and also because they can only do a small bit, they are usually available at last minute whereas most "young" people aren't interested in last minute one day subbing and if one is, it would generally be difficult to get the same person again on another occasion

spurious

The 'available at the last minute' factor is one of the most important in our school.

When I was doing my part-time years (80s), myself and the other part-time teachers would come in every morning for ten to nine to see if there was any work available. Some days you went home with nothing and some days you got a full day. There is nobody does the same in my present school, yet most days there is work available.

The school that had children supervising younger children should be reported.

Dudess

spurious wrote: »

The 'available at the last minute' factor is one of the most important in our school.

When I was doing my part-time years (80s), myself and the other part-time teachers would come in every morning for ten to nine to see if there was any work available. Some days you went home with nothing and some days you got a full day. There is nobody does the same in my present school, yet most days there is work available.

I'd say we could be seeing a return of that...

malpas

TheDriver wrote: »

The reason retired people do subbing is because they are allowed under their pension agreement to do some subbing and also because they can only do a small bit, they are usually available at last minute whereas most "young" people aren't interested in last minute one day subbing and if one is, it would generally be difficult to get the same person again on another occasion

Surprised at this since in most jobs once you retire it's goodbye for good. In one case last year I recall that a retired teacher was teaching daily for months...I can appreciate it may make school management a bit easier but would be concerned if it deprived young teachers of critical experience and job/earning opportunities in a difficult employment environment.

Alessandra

I really resent the people who go into teaching because it is a "safe job". These are people who take the jobs from the "real" teachers and spend their lifetime moaning in the stafftoom with no real interest in what they are teaching or the individuals they teach. These people make it hard for those passionate about teaching to find a position.

Saying that if you are good enough there are positions out there for you. Some subjects like English and History have an over-supply of teachers. Others such as irish and home-ecoonomics are very much in demand. A number of my friends have secured temporary contracts for up to a year without a HDIP(they are returning to complete HDIP). They enjoy what they do. Their students will undoubtedly benefit from their passion for their subject and teaching in general. This is cliched, but if it is what you really feel you are born to do then go for it. Don't be put off by the jobs situation because teachers will always be needed and if you are good enough and explore enough avenues you'll find work.

williamsrk

your kidding my wife trained for 5 years done temp work here and there for 3 years because she couldnt find perminant job 2 years ago found full time went on contract this year told yesterday no job come september due to cut backs 7 teachers being let go reducing pupils from 400 down to 250 most students in there first year this year wiil not be able to continue next year due to this and best of all mary hannifin on today tonight last night said thenurses drs and gardi are to take pay cuts but will all have jobs to go to do not do teaching as a carreer

Rodar08

williamsrk wrote: »

your kidding my wife trained for 5 years done temp work here and there for 3 years because she couldnt find perminant job 2 years ago found full time went on contract this year told yesterday no job come september due to cut backs 7 teachers being let go reducing pupils from 400 down to 250 most students in there first year this year wiil not be able to continue next year due to this and best of all mary hannifin on today tonight last night said thenurses drs and gardi are to take pay cuts but will all have jobs to go to do not do teaching as a carreer

Oh my god that's awful :eek:. Yeah teachers are getting let go in the school I'm in too but as far as I know they don't know much yet as to who or how many. The government have been and are continuing to ruin us all. Its getting so scary. That story - if you had made it up this time last year would have been laughed at. Who thought things would ever come to this? What about the 1st years that won't be able to continue next year.

J***s what a complete mess of a situation. The principals in a lot of schools get a lot of flack from staff and I'm not exactly sticking up for them - a huge amount of them are making matters worse and feeding into the governments hands just because they want to keep their numbers up and keep the parents happy by not closing for a day when teachers are not available - as mentioned above - bringing in 6th year girls to supervise classes - that said they do have to come along after and try to piece together this disaster that the govenment are leaving behind. A teacher should never 'wing it' of course but I'd say there are not many principals who can follow a precendent for this scenario. Unbelievable.

rainbowtrout

williamsrk wrote: »

your kidding my wife trained for 5 years done temp work here and there for 3 years because she couldnt find perminant job 2 years ago found full time went on contract this year told yesterday no job come september due to cut backs 7 teachers being let go reducing pupils from 400 down to 250 most students in there first year this year wiil not be able to continue next year due to this and best of all mary hannifin on today tonight last night said thenurses drs and gardi are to take pay cuts but will all have jobs to go to do not do teaching as a carreer

that's pretty bad, but i can't understand why students would be told there is no place for them in the school, surely a school can't do that and it's pupil numbers that keep teachers there anyway. it doesn't make sense

Toto Wolfcastle

I agree, it doesn't make much sense to drop the numbers of students. I know we're increasing the numbers of first years for the coming school year so that we'll be back on quota for the following year. It may cause havoc for practical exams but desperate times etc.

On a happier note, one of our regular subs has been offered maternity leave classes and another is doing resource classes.. I'm delighted for them. It really is hard for them because they are such great teachers but there just wasn't any work for them until now.

J.R.

Rodar08 wrote: »

The principals in a lot of schools get a lot of flack from staff and I'm not exactly sticking up for them - a huge amount of them are making matters worse and feeding into the governments hands just because they want to keep their numbers up and keep the parents happy by not closing for a day when teachers are not available - QUOTE]

As far as I know if the principal closes the school for a day the DES will insist that the school remain open a day longer in the year to make up for the closure - how would the teachers feel then if the principal approached staff in May informing them they have to work X number of extra days into holidays to make up for the days he/she closed the school?