Provincial success or International Success poll

Otacon

Serenity Now! wrote: »

My point was that it was because Ronan O'Gara was playing poorly and there was only 20 minutes to go and Paul O'Connell because he was injured with a dead leg (the try followed soon after). It was nothing to do with the province they play for because quite frankly that poop doesn't bother me in the slighest.

And my point was that, regardless of what province they play for, I support the entire team, no matter what, during a game. Booing your own team from the stands, imo, sends you to the 'special hell' (for any fans of the 'Firefly' TV series!).

Serenity Now!

Otacon wrote: »

And my point was that, regardless of what province they play for, I support the entire team, no matter what, during a game. Booing your own team from the stands, imo, sends you to the 'special hell' (for any fans of the 'Firefly' TV series!).

Well I wasn't booing anyone. Swore big-style when the All Blacks ran through an injured O'Connell's channel but that is hardly the same.

anonymous_joe

I never get the whole Ireland fans are arrogant rich bástards and Thomond Park's the home of tough honest working men. It's not actually true. They're both full of normal people.

I think the national team struggling has made the Munster-Leinster rivalry worse. With Munster proving successful it's hard for a lot of people who support them to feel much love for a struggling Ireland. Ireland looking uninterested is not as satisfying as Munster winning. I've seen some almighty performances from Munster, and I've always enjoyed them - but at the same time they always bug me because I'm not a Munster fan at the end of teh day. For a lot of people who aren't Munster fans, the seeming lack of passion from Munster players so renowned for it hurts. I don't think the Munster players care, but I always get the impression that some of them would prefer to be playing for Munster. My head tells me that I must be wrong, and I've no way I could ever prove it, it just seems to be in my head. Before anyone takes this as an attack on Munster, I've seen some great performances by players from all four provinces (ok three, sorry Connacht ).

There is a big problem though, which I've posted before and as have others. Our players are not as good as we think. When Leinster beat Wasps, they were playing a team with about 13 or so international standard players in their squad. Wasps have the highest number of England internationals per club afaik (think it's them anyway, unless its Leicester again). Despite this, the standard played in that match was not as high as you would get in an international match.

When Munster play, they most often played 10 man rugby for a good few years. It was only when they signed a rake of New Zealanders that they really began to play running rugby. As it stands, teh Munster team is basically the Ireland pack, some Ireland half backs and then a New Zealand back line with a few token Paddies. At club level, the pack in particular is staggeringly good. World class. Step up a level, and it's not. That simple. Same with Leinster, guys like Fitzgerald will be world class, at club level they sometimes look it, but at international level they look good, rather than world class. I'm ignoring potential here, btw, if anyone feels inclined to mention guys like Earls, Fitz, O'Brien, Pollock, Cave or any of the myriad talented youths we have.

What that means is simple - your world class best in the world player doesn't look as good when he plays for Ireland. So that takes some of the lustre off Ireland's performances. Because I'll say this - I'd rather watch Munster's pack dominate weaker club scrums if I was a Munster fan than watch them be decent at international level. Sure I know that I prefer to see Leinster players doing well for the province than struggling internationally.

This does not mean I prefer Leinster to Ireland. As I've said before, both are of equal importance to me. However, I can see why, if I was used to Heineken Cups, I'd believe the players were the best in the world, and clearly, like a lot of people, I'd feel that it was somehow the other provinces letting down the international side rather than the precious Munster players. I know full well, that most people on here are not that shallow or stupid, but there are plenty of fools supporting all provinces, and Munster attract more because they win more. It's the way of sports. When I was at the Argentina match I heard a lad say that they should start Earls, Dowling, Murphy etc ahead of Kearney, O'Driscoll and co because 'sure, they'd care if there were Munster lads around them.' Moronic, but understandable. Afterall, Munster are the supreme marketing creation of Irish sports. The sheer number of people who've bought into the ideal are testament to that. I love Munster, but I love Leinster a whole lot more, yeah, there's a big rivalry, but it's beginning to split the fans of the national side.

It saddens me that there are people out there who'd rather support Munster than Ireland. I don't think they should prefer one over the other. I don't know how you could if I'm honest.

88show

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It saddens me that there are people out there who'd rather support Munster than Ireland. I don't think they should prefer one over the other. I don't know how you could if I'm honest.

i have had this type of discussion too with my munster mad neighbour
why is it that when in the green shirt you still get the players referred to as muns/ulster blah blah players instead of men of the green jersey.
Cause it seems that it plays out that way on the field too, no help from the media etc.
Being from Aotearoa, it's yr rugby dream to get into that black jersey be you from southland or north harbour. And once in that jersey it's worn by what seems to be the rest of the country, maybe why we take this game to heart.

Is there more passion to be in a red jersey than a proud paddy where ever yr from,
to be in a green jersey?

anonymous_joe

88show wrote: »

i have had this type of discussion too with my munster mad neighbour
why is it that when in the green shirt you still get the players referred to as muns/ulster blah blah players instead of men of the green jersey.
Cause it seems that it plays out that way on the field too, no help from the media etc.
Being from Aotearoa, it's yr rugby dream to get into that black jersey be you from southland or north harbour. And once in that jersey it's worn by what seems to be the rest of the country, maybe why we take this game to heart.

Is there more passion to be in a red jersey than a proud paddy where ever yr from,
to be in a green jersey?

Well basically - life is easier in the red of Munster than the green of Ireland.

This is one of the things about rugby - if you're playing for New Zealand, if you step up to the international side you're stepping up to the best team in the world (when not under the pressure of tournaments). For Ireland you'll never have that luxury. We won't ever be the best in the world, unless other teams struggle.

Contrast that to being in the premiere club in Europe, where you're worshipped by your own fans, the media lavishes you with praise, and then you find yourself under a lot of pressure and being criticised much more harshly for the international games.

NotWormBoy

Excellent posts, Joe. Couldn't agree more with most of your points.

buck65

I could. Those same Munster players were stepping up to the plate since the early 2000s when Munster were not the team they are now. Life is never easy for the men in red. They have frequently been in groups of death and battled extreme odds over the years. See all their miracle matches for proof.
Even last week Munster were outgunned big time by a better team and still stole it. I would say that Munster are better than the sum of their parts while Ireland are underachievers. This also includes the Munster contingent that play for Ireland.

toomevara

Lots of excellent posts on here detailing the reasons why it's fundamentally wrong to privilege your province over your country. Reading them, logically I can't disagree in any way but the fact is my heart's not in it. I feel 100% more passionate about Munster rugby and the way they approach and play the game and represent the people of Munster than I do about Ireland.

I support Ireland and consider myself a proud Irishman, but it doesn't come from the same gut, visceral, limbic part of my brain/heart that my love of Munster does. Can't help it, and I can't counterfeit it, my feeling for Munster, the team and the munster approach to the game is beyond logic or appeal to reason and far surpasses how I feel about the Ireland team. End of.

anonymous_joe

buck65 wrote: »

I could. Those same Munster players were stepping up to the plate since the early 2000s when Munster were not the team they are now. Life is never easy for the men in red. They have frequently been in groups of death and battled extreme odds over the years. See all their miracle matches for proof.
Even last week Munster were outgunned big time by a better team and still stole it. I would say that Munster are better than the sum of their parts while Ireland are underachievers. This also includes the Munster contingent that play for Ireland.

I think it's dangerous to play up the Munster underdog status. When Munster started performing well in the early 2000s (the year Woodie went wasn't it?) they were underachievers. That was a long time ago.

There have been many groups of death, but Munster have usually been top dog in those groups. Clermont might be expensive, but they're not necessarily better than Munster. At the end of the day, Munster are the highest ranked club in Europe, so while they've gotten the tough groups, and done very well to get out of them, that's been because they're the best team, not a collection of brave but limited souls fighting all the odds.

I think Ireland absolutely have underachieved, but only from about 2005 or 2006. I think we were unlucky once or twice, but very few of our players have shown total passion for the Ireland team. One of the few has always been O'Driscoll. But people don't like him because he's from Dublin, and he's posh. As such, a lot of people ignore what he's done.

In recent years, a lot of the guys playing for Ireland have seemed very satisfied with themselves, and unwilling to go the extra mile. Certain members of hte Munster contingent have been most culpable here, I'd say O'Connell and O'Gara being the most talented and the least motivated.

A large part of my antipathy for Munster (which only exists in the context of Leinster games :P) is that the passion displayed by O'Connell or O'Gara is so often non-existent for Ireland. That makes me so sad, because Ireland should be the dream, at the end of teh day.

I hope that with Declan Kidney's appointment (a man whom I have a certain suspicion of for obvious reasons) he will able to get that passion out of the players for their country.

toomevara wrote: »

Lots of excellent posts on here detailing the reasons why it's fundamentally wrong to privilege your province over your country. Reading them, logically I can't disagree in any way but the fact is my heart's not in it. I feel 100% more passionate about Munster rugby and the way they approach and play the game and represent the people of Munster than I do about Ireland.

I support Ireland and consider myself a proud Irishman, but it doesn't come from the same gut, visceral, limbic part of my brain/heart that my love of Munster does. Can't help it, and I can't counterfeit it, my feelings for Munster, the team and the munster approach to the game is beyond logic or appeal to reason and far surpass how I feel about the Ireland team. End of.

Interesting. I know that with the Eddie O'Sullivan reign towards teh end my enthusiasm was not lessened per sé but you do struggle. I know a lot of people who view the Irish team's lumbering indifferent performances as unworthy of support. Perhaps if Ireland played with similar enthusiasm they'd be supported more strongly.

toomevara

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Perhaps if Ireland played with similar enthusiasm they'd be supported more strongly.

To be honest, if they displayed even half the commitment to the shirt, and each other, that Munster players do week-in,week-out win, lose or draw I'd happily revise my opinion. Its not about the winning, God knows I know (I began supporting Ireland in the 80's when a win was as rare as a virgin in the playboy mansion). My response to the vast majority of Irish performances in the last few years has been very firmly of the 'meh' variety (one or two notable exceptions aside..)

With Munster, well they often lose but they never, ever get beat if you know what I mean, and thats something that you can't put a price on.

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

To be honest, if they displayed even half the commitment to the shirt, and each other, that Munster players do week-in,week-out win, lose or draw I'd happily revise my opinion. Its not about the winning, God knows I know (I began supporting Ireland in the 80's when a win was as rare as a virgin in the playboy mansion). My response to the vast majority of Irish performances in the last few years has been very firmly of the 'meh' variety (one or two notable exceptions aside..)

With Munster, well they often lose but they never, ever get beat if you know what I mean, and thats something that you can't put a price on.

We can but hope...

Serenity Now!

It takes a lot more than that overused cliché 'passion' to win a game. I don't think I've ever seen either of the players mentioned display no will to win when in the Ireland shirt. They are playing international rugby union. A level up again from the ERC or Magners League.

Success or the hope/likelihood of Success brings in the numbers. People are that fickle. Hence this rise of Munster support since the Northampton ERC final we see now. Only the year before there was barely 6000 at the Leinster v Munster game in Donnybrook. Hence the rise in Chelsea supporters over the past tour or five years. Hence the interest in cricket in England after sept 2005.

If Ireland win then support would grow. If they don't, it will stagnate. Its that simple.

anonymous_joe

Serenity Now! wrote: »

It takes a lot more than that overused cliché 'passion' to win a game. I don't think I've ever seen either of the players mentioned display no will to win when in the Ireland shirt. They are playing international rugby union. A level up again from the ERC or Magners League.

Success or the hope/likelihood of Success brings in the numbers. People are that fickle. Hence this rise of Munster support since the Northampton ERC final we see now. Only the year before there was barely 6000 at the Leinster v Munster game in Donnybrook. Hence the rise in Chelsea supporters over the past tour or five years. Hence the interest in cricket in England after sept 2005.

If Ireland win then support would grow. If they don't, it will stagnate. Its that simple.

But that cliché forges a creative brand that people want to buy into. That's one of the real foundations of Munster's success - great marketing.

Serenity Now!

anonymous_joe wrote: »

But that cliché forges a creative brand that people want to buy into. That's one of the real foundations of Munster's success - great marketing.

Nah. More to do with their results in the ERC in particular 2001 the year the national team buggered up in Murrayfield. The passion & pride crap had been used up until Ireland actually challenged for the championship. Before then it was typical Ireland happy with giving it a go and the old stupidity of 'so long as we don't lose to the English'.

The IRFU and the branches of the IRFU had bugger all to "market" before that year's ERC regarding the provinces. A province/region started winning and the crowds came. The so-called "passion" that amateur psychologists in their sofas or in the stands say is lacking is actually always there. What seperates the men from the boys is application and in the international game, this is harder to do.

corny

toomevara wrote: »

To be honest, if they displayed even half the commitment to the shirt, and each other, that Munster players do week-in,week-out win, lose or draw I'd happily revise my opinion. Its not about the winning, God knows I know (I began supporting Ireland in the 80's when a win was as rare as a virgin in the playboy mansion). My response to the vast majority of Irish performances in the last few years has been very firmly of the 'meh' variety (one or two notable exceptions aside..)

With Munster, well they often lose but they never, ever get beat if you know what I mean, and thats something that you can't put a price on.

Did it occur to you that people who share your view might be causing the problems you're describing? On any given day with Ireland you could be near enough guaranteed half the team will be from Munster, could be as many as 9 or 10, 7 of the pack and the half backs most times. If they share your attitude (i'm beginning to think the majority of Munstermen do) then they are causing this laissez faire attitude with Ireland you're talking about.

A few weeks ago I saw Peter Stringer on the Late Late with Pat Kenny asking him is playing for Munster or Ireland more important. At the time i thought what a ridiculous question to ask. Now i see how relevant the question actually was. I don't know maybe Munster should form a breakaway Union and compete on the International stage!! (solve all problems) Leave the rest of us to Honour the jersey that should without question come first.

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

But that cliché forges a creative brand that people want to buy into. That's one of the real foundations of Munster's success - great marketing.

Jees does this ever stop? How about Munster success being based on the fact that they are a Limerick based team, where success and big crowds didn't just start with Munster and the HEC! Success breeds success, don't think there was much marketing required for Munster, they were selling out Thomond park since '98 or so once the transition from AIL and the clubs to provence and HEC was copper fastened by some previously unexpected results against big name opposition, prior to that it was other Limerick teams drawing the big crowds and selling out Thomond.

If you can't accept that then tough! But that is the way it is.

RuggieBear

erm...there was an interpro in 1998 in dooradoyle. I'd say there were 200 people there at most....maybe 300 if you include the dogs.

But that was before Munster hit the big time...and perhaps it needed the good results

the clubs were well supported tho. I remember being at the young munster mary's ail game in 1993 (brent pope was sent off for breaking a fella's jaw cuddly kiwi me arse!)...think there were 20,000 limerickmen at it.
I was at a greystones con match in 1994 iirc and there was 6000 people at it (at least 3000 from cork)

anonymous_joe

louthandproud wrote: »

Jees does this ever stop? How about Munster success being based on the fact that they are a Limerick based team, where success and big crowds didn't just start with Munster and the HEC! Success breeds success, don't think there was much marketing required for Munster, they were selling out Thomond park since '98 or so once the transition from AIL and the clubs to provence and HEC was copper fastened by some previously unexpected results against big name opposition, prior to that it was other Limerick teams drawing the big crowds and selling out Thomond.

If you can't accept that then tough! But that is the way it is.

Munster weren't selling out Thomond in 98. ^^
At least not regularly. There's no shame in that btw. Leinster were still in Donnybrook back then after all.

What % of the team is from Limerick btw? Always curious bout that.

Munster's popularity has been well managed and increased by decent marketing. That's hardly something to be defensive about.

louthandproud

RuggieBear wrote: »

erm...there was an interpro in 1998 in dooradoyle. I'd say there were 200 people there at most....maybe 300 if you include the dogs.

But that was before Munster hit the big time...and perhaps it needed the good results

the clubs were well supported tho. I remember being at the young munster mary's ail game in 1993 (brent pope was sent off for breaking a fella's jaw cuddly kiwi me arse!)...think there were 20,000 limerickmen at it.
I was at a greystones con match in 1994 iirc and there was 6000 people at it (at least 3000 from cork)

98 was the turning point, I was at several matches interpro and v exiles running back previous to 98 and there was very few at any of them, at the same time Munster Senioor Cup derbys and AIL games were packing out grounds around Limerick. I was also at HEC matches in Thomond oin 98 that was totally sardines as the tickets weren't limited at that time. Ruby in Munster particularly in Limerick has always been hugely supported. Not necessarily always the provincial team though, the provinicial game had almost died out in Ireland (somewhat similarly to the Railway Cup in GAA) before the HEC came along and the resources and focus get redirected away from the clubs and to the provinces, the crowds moved also.

My basic point is that Munsters success is not based on marketing, but rather on a love of Rugby that is and always has been the life blood of Limerick city. AIL results and attendances in the 90's demonstrate this point. Munsters eventual success has of course increased the fan base both in numbers and in geographic spread.

RugbyFanatic

louthandproud wrote: »

Jees does this ever stop? How about Munster success being based on the fact that they are a Limerick based team, where success and big crowds didn't just start with Munster and the HEC! Success breeds success, don't think there was much marketing required for Munster, they were selling out Thomond park since '98 or so once the transition from AIL and the clubs to provence and HEC was copper fastened by some previously unexpected results against big name opposition, prior to that it was other Limerick teams drawing the big crowds and selling out Thomond.

If you can't accept that then tough! But that is the way it is.

You certainly were not selling out TP having visited there many times back then not that theres anything wrong with that as any Irish side would of been hard pressed to having weekly sell outs then.

if you cant accept that then tough! But thats the truth :pac:

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Munster weren't selling out Thomond in 98. ^^
At least not regularly. There's no shame in that btw. Leinster were still in Donnybrook back then after all.

What % of the team is from Limerick btw? Always curious bout that.

Munster's popularity has been well managed and increased by decent marketing. That's hardly something to be defensive about.

I'm not defensive about the above I am defensive about the statement that Munsters success is based on Marketing, seems you have climbed down from that bold statement now.

Don't know what % of the team is from Limerick, probably 50%+++ over the last 10 years, even more if you are talking about players from Limerick based clubs but not necessarily from Limerick itself. I'd say Shannon has had 4-5 players on average on the Munster tam since '98. Hayes, Stringer, Quinlan, Foley, Galwey to mention a few.

louthandproud

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

You certainly were not selling out TP having visited there many times back then not that theres anything wrong with that as any Irish side would of been hard pressed to having weekly sell outs then.

if you cant accept that then tough! But thats the truth :pac:

Well I lived about 300 meters from Thomond in 98 so I know what I am talking about, by '99 tickets had become almost impossible to get. Anyway the point is that it didn't take marketing to get rugby support out in Munster, the transition from amateur to semi pro to fully pro was happening at this time and the focus form the unions, the money and the top players plus the fans were all moving from club to province at this time 98 was the turning point. Nothing to do with marketing it just where the game was at in Ireland at that time.

anonymous_joe

louthandproud wrote: »

I'm not defensive about the above I am defensive about the statement that Munsters success is based on Marketing, seems you have climbed down from that bold statement now.

Don't know what % of the team is from Limerick, probably 50%+++ over the last 10 years, even more if you are talking about players from Limerick based clubs but not necessarily from Limerick itself. I'd say Shannon has had 4-5 players on average on the Munster tam since '98. Hayes, Stringer, Quinlan, Foley, Galwey to mention a few.

Oh sorry. Just saw my post. ^^

What I meant was that their success in terms of popularity is to a large degree based on canny marketing.

anonymous_joe

louthandproud wrote: »

Well I lived about 300 meters from Thomond in 98 so I know what I am talking about, by '99 tickets had become almost impossible to get. Anyway the point is that it didn't take marketing to get rugby support out in Munster, the transition from amateur to semi pro to fully pro was happening at this time and the focus form the unions, the money and the top players plus the fans were all moving from club to province at this time 98 was the turning point. Nothing to do with marketing it just where the game was at in Ireland at that time.

It doesn't take it to get people to go to games anywhere in this country.

The point is, to get the extra fans, that's when you need it.

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Oh sorry. Just saw my post. ^^

What I meant was that their success in terms of popularity is to a large degree based on canny marketing.

In the professional era money is ever important hence marketing is required to ensure it keeps flowing, that I don't deny, I would even say that the continued success of Munster requires a certain level of marketing. But definitely to say Munsters success is based on Marketing is untrue.

Remember when the HEC took off and Munster started getting results they weren't even a fully professional team. Things have changed now obiviously and sponsorship, marketing, and a bigger stadium are all required to support a fully professional team.

anonymous_joe

louthandproud wrote: »

In the professional era money is ever important hence marketing is required to ensure it keeps flowing, that I don't deny, I would even say that the continued success of Munster requires a certain level of marketing. But definitely to say Munsters success is based on Marketing is untrue.

Remember when the HEC took off and Munster started getting results they weren't even a fully professional team. Things have changed now obiviously and sponsorship, marketing, and a bigger stadium are all required to support a fully professional team.

Indeed. That's where the whole modern concepts are crucial. That's where the modern ethos of passion etc is conveyed to the public. I saw an ad for 'Axel's dvd on tv a few minutes ago, and it was everything you'd expect in such an ad. It's important in the modern game.

louthandproud

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Indeed. That's where the whole modern concepts are crucial. That's where the modern ethos of passion etc is conveyed to the public. I saw an ad for 'Axel's dvd on tv a few minutes ago, and it was everything you'd expect in such an ad. It's important in the modern game.

Concurrence! :-)

toomevara

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Indeed. That's where the whole modern concepts are crucial. That's where the modern ethos of passion etc is conveyed to the public. I saw an ad for 'Axel's dvd on tv a few minutes ago, and it was everything you'd expect in such an ad. It's important in the modern game.

Of course, but you must have that 'product' to 'sell' first-off (hate these feckin' modern marketing terms, but for the want of anything better...). Munster create the commodity(let's call it essence of Munster) everytime they go out on a field to play then the Munster marketing folk package it up and sell it to us.

Lots of the English prem clubs have massively sophisticated marketing depts which put clubs in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and France to shame, but, in the final analysis, if the fire and brimstone aint there on the pitch all they're pushing is hollow marketing platitudes. Fans ain't thick, if the passion/commitment ain't there on the field well then the marketers are just flogging smoke and mirrors and frankly no one buys it....Saracens are a classic case in point.

Munster walk the walk and then talk the talk, thats the fundamental difference....