Will Lime render & lime floors really give me a warm, dry house ?

martin-sligo

Hi Group,

I have a early 1900 traditional stone long house. It is in need of full renovation, new roof, re-render walls in & out and new floors. I had intended on going the no-pc way ie no plastic or concrete, but as I live in Sligo I'm worried about the house being damp when all the work is finished.

Most of my friends who have renovated old stone building have problems with clothes left in drawers, under beds etc. As attractive as traditional / conservation builds are, I dont want to spend all this money to live in a damp, cold house. I was advised that I must let the whole building breath, allowing moisture to evaporate up from the entire floor area. What happens if I have a rug on the floor, or I leave a pair of jeans on the ground. Will they not absorb that moisture during the night, and so be damp in the morning ?

Id very much appreciate some honest answers please. Will I have a warm, DRY house if I use only lime & lime/hemp on the walls and limecrete in the floors ?

Many thanks

MRM

RKQ

Breathable construction is a good idea but this does not mean that you don't need to install a damp-proof-membrane in the floor or dpc's in the wall.

Stone has absolutely no insulation value. Concrete may not be the most eco friendly material but it will be easier and cheaper to install than a lime floor.

Save the building, retain features but don't kid yourself. You will need to marry new insulation and damp proofing into the refurbishment.

It wouldn't be very green to be burning more fuel than necessary - just to live.

I live in a stone building. Its a constant temperature, no damp, no condensation. The stone is exposed externally. Inside the stone is exposed in the hall and 1st floor double height lounge. All purlins and trusses are exposed. It has a warm roof.

Poor Uncle Tom

My old office was originally a thatched family home which I took great pleasure in resurecting from the rubble pile into something not ultra modern, not a replica of the original, but a sucessful blend of space (full height rooms), light (long roof windows in a new slate roof), and functionality (no space lost to corridors, just one room leading into another), even if I do say so myself it turned out very well. I also incorporated a radon barrier, DPC's, DPM, insulations all around, double glazing in the very limited wall windows and roof windows and the SE gable more than half glazed. Very cosy in winter and cool in summer (what summer?)

Anyway you can do it if you put a bit of thought into it, and it can be a whole lot of fun.:)

No6

Martin In a word "NO" as the lads have siad a blend of modern and old materials will give you the best results. It may not appease the perserve everything purists or the knock it down modernists you will at least achieve a warm dry house. I live in a 1920's stone farmhouse and have converted and older circa 1900 stone grannary into my office but have used plastic DPM's and concrete floors and modern insulation and happily have a nice dry warm house and office.

martin-sligo

Thanks to you all for the answers. For the floor, how did you all merge the DPM / Radon barrier into the stone walls ? Any pointers on how you did the floor ?

What insulation & thickness did you use on the inside walls ?

Ive heard that putting in a DPC in a concrete floor only forces the moisture up the walls ?

Are there any things people wished they'd done from the start to improve the final building ?

What about a french drain around the outside of the house ?

Does anyone know a good builder in West Sligo looking for work ?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've never built anything in mu life !

Many thanks

MRM

Slig

martin-sligo wrote: »

Thanks to you all for the answers. For the floor, how did you all merge the DPM / Radon barrier into the stone walls ? Any pointers on how you did the floor ?

What insulation & thickness did you use on the inside walls ?

Ive heard that putting in a DPC in a concrete floor only forces the moisture up the walls ?

Are there any things people wished they'd done from the start to improve the final building ?

What about a french drain around the outside of the house ?

Does anyone know a good builder in West Sligo looking for work ?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've never built anything in mu life !

Many thanks

MRM

I would advise hiring an architect/technician/engineer with ALOT of experience. I'll see if I can look up some names of local builders I've used.

RKQ

martin-sligo wrote: »

Ive heard that putting in a DPC in a concrete floor only forces the moisture up the walls ?

No, this doesn't make sense. The conc slab is in the habital house, heating and ventilation remove moisture from your home. The radon/ dpm stops rising damp coming up from the ground!

martin-sligo wrote: »

What about a french drain around the outside of the house ?

A french drain is a great idea. I installed one around the perimeter, the thinking being it removes water and damp, helping to keep the walls dry and lessen rising damp!.

I'd agree with Slig, get some professional advice. Radon and rising damp are too important to ignore. Traditionally slate was used as a dpc in walls and then the cavity wall was developed to prevent rising damp, condensation etc. Many old stone churches have wall and floor vents built in. Most modern techniques / methods of construction have a tradition which we should not ignore.

Refurbish your home to a high standard - warm, healthy spaces, cheap to heat and comfortable. Good luck.

No6

Hire the Architect / Technoligoist / Engineer first, decide what works you want to do and then look for the builders. I am currently supervising a major cottage refurb here in Mayo and a huge problem my client had about a year ago was all the local builders wanted to knock the whole lot down and build it from scratch. Finally got a builder who would do the works as specified and its nearly finished and looking very good.

jefreywithonef

you could search through this site:http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/

Heatherview

Hi Martin -Sligo

I have seen numberous old cottages refurbished in the past 25 yrs,most of which have blended old and new methods of construction. You will need to consider conc floors and what ever on walls to succeed. I agree with all posts to your problem. You need to call in the professionals with experience of older building.
It will be well worth the cost and you will get a old/ modern type house to good building standards. No damp,well insulated,etc

Worth it check all avenue's
Heatherview

PS Im in sligo area, what part are you, will get you building contractors names if you need them.Let me know im in building sales sligo area 30yrs have good contacts over that time.

martin-sligo

Heatherview wrote: »

Hi Martin -Sligo

I have seen numberous old cottages refurbished in the past 25 yrs,most of which have blended old and new methods of construction. You will need to consider conc floors and what ever on walls to succeed. I agree with all posts to your problem. You need to call in the professionals with experience of older building.
It will be well worth the cost and you will get a old/ modern type house to good building standards. No damp,well insulated,etc

Worth it check all avenue's
Heatherview

PS Im in sligo area, what part are you, will get you building contractors names if you need them.Let me know im in building sales sligo area 30yrs have good contacts over that time.

Thanks Heather View, Im in Easkey, if you know any builders in the area with experience in this area Id appreciate any contacts. Unfortunately I have already employed an architect for designs, but no knowledge of this type of restoration, also employed a conservation builder who said hemp lime on the walls and limecrete floor. Hence my dilema. But Im certainly taking on the points raised. A DPM in the floor looks like a must.

Im not sure how this can be joined into the walls though, to stop the rising damp being forced up the walls ? Brgrds MRM

RKQ

What sort of experience or qualification has your "conservation" builder?

Why didn't you retain the services of an Architect / Technician familiar with this building type?

Damp is not "forced" up under some sort of pressure - it simply soaks up from the ground. Consider a silicone chemical dpc if the walls are lime and stone.

Building without out a damp proof membrane is silly - IMO a total waste of money and resourses. Radon is a dangerous gas - why allow the risk?

The advice here is very good but I feel you are unconvinced... everyone has the right to make their own mistakes.

Heatherview

Hi Martin Sligo

There's a good Architect in Donegal ( muffler)* talk to him, he should be able to point you in the right direction. Check with your builder see where he used lime products and check with the householders on it's success. You MUST incorporate a Radon/DPM membrane into the building someway to stop water penetration?????
Remember the old carpentry saying "Measure twice cut once"

Investigate your options thoroughly

Heatherview

muffler

Heatherview wrote: »

Hi Martin Sligo

There's a good Architect in Donegal ( muffler)* talk to him, he should be able to point you in the right direction. Check with your builder see where he used lime products and check with the householders on it's success. You MUST incorporate a Radon/DPM membrane into the building someway to stop water penetration?????
Remember the old carpentry saying "Measure twice cut once"

Investigate your options thoroughly

Heatherview

See. I fixed that for you

Now on a serious note do not post up names of businesses or individuals. Read the charter please.



* unwanted text replaced by muffler

williamsrk

dear martin i live in mayo and have done the same type of job on my own house as a stonemason i know about the old lime mortar buildings and as stated it must be allowed to breath i repointed my house with lime mortar and studded my internals but left cavity between stud and stone walls i took up floor and put in dpc plus radon pipes at the same time ( silent killer) put underfloor heating in floors as well 8 yrs later no damp the house is origianlly 1910 but ive lived in a house 2yr old and there was water running down the walls in the morning p m me if you need more info

Builderfromhell

I don't see how you can incorporate a Radon barrier into an old cottage properly as you would need to seal where the walls come up. also, if you are extending as well as renovating external walls may become internal walls and radon can come up through them.
My understanding of radon membrane installation is that you only need to leave a small gap to make the whole thing useless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

RKQ

I agree with williamsrk. Seems he / she has done a good job.

I also appreciate what Builderfromhell says. The Radon barrier is a difficult detail to install. (It can be run up the wall to a certain height and bonded to stone or even held in place by a treated batten.) But in this case well worth it as it is also a D.P.M - Damp proof membrane!

The radon pipes under the floor are very important - if radon exists it can be sucked out via these pipes. Radon is heavier than air, so it tends to seep in and stay at floor level. If its sucked out, it is removed completely, before it enters the structure.

Underfloor heating is excellent in a stone building - constant temp prevents damp, condensation etc.

Refurbishment will sometimes be more difficult to do than new build. One must make educated ammendments to certain construction details but this does not mean that the structure can not meet or surpass current Regulations and Standards.

Common sense, traditional details, high standard of workmanship and quality design can be very important. Its important to learn by the experience of others.