Is Cowen paralysed as Taoiseach?

kmick

When it became public knowledge that Cowen was likely to replace Ahern unopposed we got quite a bit of 'blurb' about family man, service to his country, drinks a pint, sings, and a few other tidbits. Im my mind it was a bit like Brown in the UK in that it seemed that his long service meant that he was 'due' his shot at the big mans job.

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.
Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.
2. Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.
3. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"
4. Throwing money at large financial institutions who may or may not be in trouble. He says they are they say otherwise.
5. Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

mike65

kmick wrote: »

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.

Was the states bean counter for 4 years before he was anointed so I think he can take a fair measure of stick for the internal meltdown.

Civil disorder? In Athens, not Dublin (yet!).

Anyway to answer your question, no there is no reassurance. He is a passenger with no greater talents he could be defere to even if he wanted to.

Darragh29

kmick wrote: »

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean...

This is my biggest problem with Cowen at the moment. He is like a f*cking donkey hee-hawing that everything is out of our control and we just have to wait for the storm to eventually pass, and then clean up the debris as best we can.

This is absolutely crazy and nothing less than INSANE coming from the leader of a country... From what I can see, people in this country are literally screaming out for decent leadership, but there is absolutely none. We could be rising out of this recession in 6 months flat if we had a leader who had a conviction that this was firstly possible.

I honestly want to pick up the TV and throw it through my sitting room window and out into the car park everytime I see Cowen on the TV in the Dail with a beal bocht telling us that there is nothing that we can do to lift ourselves out of this. It's f*cking insane that a man who is leading a nation in a time like this is going around with this opinion...

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

We could be rising out of this recession in 6 months flat if we had a leader who had a conviction that this was firstly possible.

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

Agreed on Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan. Cowen is ultimately responsible for the appointment of Lenihan and Coughlan.

To a large degree in business, you make your own luck and our economic problem is simply a business problem, albeit a large scale one. Businesses up and down the country are cutting their cloth to meet their circumstances, but this recession is almost one year upon us and we have a government that is now borrowing 10% for current expenditure next year!?!?!

These guys need to do their patriotic duty and leave office while there is still an economy to fix.

Dob74

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

The opposition parties are delighted to do nothing. There is no way out of this one for FF. The economy is not going to rebound anytime soon. To think if there was a FG/Lab coalition. FF would be tearing them a new one. It was the Ahern, Harney and McCreevy troika that flooded the country with cheap credit. Now the new gang will have to clean up the mess. No one is going to like the tough calls they are going to make.

DublinWriter

The way I see it, promotion in FF runs along the lines of seniority, not talent.

Look at most of the ministers in the current cabinet and you'll see that they invariably come from a FF family dynasty. Most have 'inherited' Daddy's comfy seat by the aegis of their respective family name.

Remember the very public hissy-fit Sean Haughey took when he initially didn't get a junior ministership back in 2004?

Therefore we don't ever see any real-talent rising to the top in FF.

I predict 2009 to be an appalling year for FF electorally. They will be decimated in the local and European elections and will face an even more resounding No from the public on Lisbon II.

Dob74

DublinWriter wrote: »

The way I see it, promotion in FF runs along the lines of seniority, not talent.

Look at most of the ministers in the current cabinet and you'll see that they invariably come from a FF family dynasty. Most have 'inherited' Daddy's comfy seat by the aegis of their respective family name.

Remember the very public hissy-fit Sean Haughey took when he initially didn't get a junior ministership back in 2004?

Therefore we don't ever see any real-talent rising to the top in FF.

I predict 2009 to be an appalling year for FF electorally. They will be decimated in the local and European elections and will face an even more resounding No from the public on Lisbon II.

+1

The nepotism in Irish politics is a joke. Its scary the amount of sons, daughters and even grandsons there are. Holding onto the same seats as there father. I think Labour should do as well as 92 in the next few elections. They were calling for regulation a few years ago and nobody was listening. Maybe the old civil war politics can be done away with.

Darragh29

DublinWriter wrote: »

The way I see it, promotion in FF runs along the lines of seniority, not talent.

Look at most of the ministers in the current cabinet and you'll see that they invariably come from a FF family dynasty. Most have 'inherited' Daddy's comfy seat by the aegis of their respective family name.

Remember the very public hissy-fit Sean Haughey took when he initially didn't get a junior ministership back in 2004?

Therefore we don't ever see any real-talent rising to the top in FF.

I predict 2009 to be an appalling year for FF electorally. They will be decimated in the local and European elections and will face an even more resounding No from the public on Lisbon II.

Progress based on seniority as opposed to demonstrated ability is a well known cornerstone of public service employment in Ireland, which is why we have a public sector that is running on a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of duty and responsibility, all stitched seamlessly together by public sector unions.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

Progress based on seniority as opposed to demonstrated ability is a well known cornerstone of public service employment in Ireland, which is why we have a public sector that is running on a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of duty and responsibility, all stitched seamlessly together by public sector unions.

You are out of date on that one.

kmick

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You are out of date on that one.

I think he is spot on - PB why is he out of date?

I am even more scared that everyone seems to agree that Cowen is a dead duck. I was expecting at least a few dissenting voices in the politics forum.

As regards Lenihan and Coughlan I know as local TD's they are excellent. For example Coughlan got my sister in law a passport at short notice. On the other side of it there is no new thinking from them.

Will they go down as the worst Taoiseach and Finance Minister in living history? Historically Coughlans role was turn up, smile for cameras, cut ribbon so I was not expecting much from her anyway.

ednwireland

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think so. The recession is a bit more than a passing blip, and nobody will be out of it soon.

I think our troika of Cowen, Lenihan, and Coughlan are not suitable for the task with which they are charged. All of them, I am sure, are able people -- but they do not have the right abilities for the jobs they should now be doing. Most of all, they seem unable to communicate to people how serious the problem is and, more important, they seem unable to win the support of people in order to take some worthwhile remedial measures.

I don't see a better offer from any of our opposition parties.

agreed with the lack of ability, mary's our td and always a lightweight. I still see no leadership from our leaders i would excpect at least a 33% pay cut until our economy recovers to 2007 levels (its what my directors are doing i am on a 3 day week from jan - less exchequer income) for all senior civil servants. pay freeze for lower end cos most of them arent on that much. cut all those junior ministers who dont do anything.
lets have a look at all those agencies i know people on huge salaries in regional agencies who do nothing (they would disagree but surely their remit is to bring work to the region and the ones i know do nothing of the sort)

i was at a meeting with mary couchlan last week and she came across as sucha lightweight stick her back on the back benches where she belongs there must be someone in FF who has a clue somewhere.

kmick

mike65 wrote: »

Civil disorder? In Athens, not Dublin (yet!).

The state has consistently failed to deal with Limerick, parts of northside Dublin, etc. Its not on an Athens scale but it is something which the public are very uneasy about. We all keep saying its all fine as long as they are shooting themselves but now we have incidents where women, kids and rugby players are getting killed.

The elephant in the room for me also is the fact that the opposition seems even worse.

meglome

Darragh29 wrote: »

I honestly want to pick up the TV and throw it through my sitting room window and out into the car park everytime I see Cowen on the TV in the Dail with a beal bocht telling us that there is nothing that we can do to lift ourselves out of this. It's f*cking insane that a man who is leading a nation in a time like this is going around with this opinion...

I'm in the same boat but it alternates to worried, then back to angry.

P. Breathnach

kmick wrote: »

I think he is spot on - PB why is he out of date?

Because there has been a huge shift to competition for promotion in most areas of public service.

There are people who have been at the same level for 20+ years. It is not necessarily the case that they are bad at their job: it can be that they are seen as not suited for a more senior position.

There are also people who have been promoted several times in a much shorter time.

Pride Fighter

Cowen looks grand, Bertie is the one paralysed with a broken leg:D

Darragh29

I think to refer to Cowen as paralysed is an affront to a person with a physical disability.

This guy isn't paralysed, he is inept and he has to go, there is no other way around this problem than for him to go while there is still an economy left to put back together again...

bill_ashmount

There is no viable alternative. Fine Gael will never get into power with their current leader.

Darragh29

bill_ashmount wrote: »

There is no viable alternative. Fine Gael will never get into power with their current leader.

To be honest, I used to think that as well, but what I'm seeing now from Cowen on the leadership front is so utterly breathtaking, that bad and all as Enda kenny is, I would consider him better than Cowen, and a year ago, I was saying that I would never vote for FG.

jmayo

kmick wrote: »

....
Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.
Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.
2. Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.
3. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"
4. Throwing money at large financial institutions who may or may not be in trouble. He says they are they say otherwise.
5. Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

Emmmm will you and others (usually FFers) stop this sh**e that it is all outside of his control :mad::mad::mad:
Cowen is responsible for a lot of the mess we are in today.
He is not responsible for the subprime crisis, but the fact our finances are in such cack order, that we had too many people working in non sustainable industries (construciton and retail), industries dependent on cheap credit flow is down to him and a few others.

He was a high ranking minister, he was minister for finance for 4 odd years, during which time enough people were telling them that the shi* would hit the fan someday soon.
Oh except those people were told they were whingers, complainers and they should go off and commit sucide.

Did he not continue policies that kept the great property boom going ?
Did he ever rain in all the financial incentives to developers to develop under section this, that and the other ?
Did he try and rain in public sector spending ?
Did he not preside over a department that based a large chunk of their income stream on the property bubble continuing ad infinitum ?

And who is saying slashing government budgets is counter productive?
Let me guess the public sector per chance :rolleyes:
We cannot afford the public sector wage bill.

Cowen and the rest of the ffers haven't a fu**ing clue. The Spanish went back during the summer when they knew things were bad. What have we got, a finance minister that seems to have discovered we were in trouble a few months after everyother person.

As O'Leary pointed out any fool can do well in a boomand in good times, it is only the smart and those with ability that can handle things in the bad times.
This statement could describe our stale, arrogant, incompetent, devoid of rational thinking ministers.

kmick wrote: »

I think he is spot on - PB why is he out of date?

I am even more scared that everyone seems to agree that Cowen is a dead duck. I was expecting at least a few dissenting voices in the politics forum.

As regards Lenihan and Coughlan I know as local TD's they are excellent. For example Coughlan got my sister in law a passport at short notice. On the other side of it there is no new thinking from them.

You see this is the problem. Why was she getting a passport for your sister in law, does Coughlan moonlight in the department or something.
What was your sister in law doing asking a TD for a passport ?
Did she have a million or two to invest in dog food plant in Longford or something :rolleyes:

They were promoted because they are friends and loyal hanchmen/women to the new fuhrer.

kmick wrote: »

....
The elephant in the room for me also is the fact that the opposition seems even worse.

How do you know they are worse. Have they been in government since 1997 ?

ismynametoolong

Leadership comes from the top and requires certain qualities other than intelligence which Cowen obviously has. He comes across as a very ignorant
arrogant and stubborn individual which are traits that will not endear the public to him and this is probably his biggest achilles heel. A Taoiseach needs to be able to sell and carry himself with the public regardless of the problems but Cowen Lenihan and Coughlan will never be able to achieve this ! FG wont do it with Enda Kenny either . If they want Lisbon 2 to go through they need to hide this trio and D Roche of course.

Darragh29

ismynametoolong wrote: »

Leadership comes from the top and requires certain qualities other than intelligence which Cowen obviously has. He comes across as a very ignorant
arrogant and stubborn individual which are traits that will not endear the public to him and this is probably his biggest achilles heel. A Taoiseach needs to be able to sell and carry himself with the public regardless of the problems but Cowen Lenihan and Coughlan will never be able to achieve this ! FG wont do it with Enda Kenny either . If they want Lisbon 2 to go through they need to hide this trio and D Roche of course.

One thing I notice about Cowen is that everyone keeps speaking of his "unquestionable intellect". Has anyone ever seen him doing anything intelligent??? This is a myth that was propagated since Ahern was preparing him for his baptism as Taoiseach. He doesn't appear any more intelligent than anyone else and even if he was, it is useless when you cannot communicate with people and are going around with your head up your arse.

I'd rather a leader that can inspire people and for this to be possible, you have to be able to relate to people. Someone who is telling us that we have no control over this economic problem, I would argue is lacking in intelligence...

CiaranC

jmayo wrote: »

Emmmm will you and others (usually FFers) stop this sh**e that it is all outside of his control :mad::mad::mad:
Cowen is responsible for a lot of the mess we are in today.
He is not responsible for the subprime crisis, but the fact our finances are in such cack order, that we had too many people working in non sustainable industries (construciton and retail), industries dependent on cheap credit flow is down to him and a few others.

The fact is that FF created this crisis by allowing and encouraging the property bubble.

The other fact is that it is now outside their control to prevent what is coming next.

jmayo

CiaranC wrote: »

The fact is that FF created this crisis by allowing and encouraging the property bubble.

The other fact is that it is now outside their control to prevent what is coming next.

I would Yes and No to the last point.
They have to be proactive (I hate using this word) about cutting spending. They have to cut their own minister numbers and salaries. Then they can say they are leading by example and go hit the public sector wage bill.
And I don't mean cutting nurses, gardai, teachers or doctors.

They have to be proactive about the banks.
They need to push them rather than letting the banks be in control.
They need to part nationalise any bank that takes their money.
No ifs or buts about it.
The banks' top echelon need to be all removed, no golden handshake just a good kick in the ar**.
The top circle in Central Bank need to go, the financial regulator gone.

Most people would say that Anglo is in biggest trouble.
What would happen if they were to go to the wall and the government focus their resources on the others ?
In other words what I am asking is how much of a hit would the Irish economy take if they went ?

The government have to make a decision, there may not be enough room in the lifeboat for everyone. Who is worth saving ?

The fact the minister for finance is coming out with some ludicrous statements like asking people to be patriotic and that he only discovered how bad things were in July or at least later than most people, only adds to the feeling that they are just inept and haven't a fu**ing clue.

By sitting back and having a wait and see approach means that the ship of state appears rudderless and it just adds to the lack of confidence in Ireland Inc.

kmick

CiaranC wrote: »

The fact is that FF created this crisis by allowing and encouraging the property bubble.

The other fact is that it is now outside their control to prevent what is coming next.

The property bubble was created by cheap money (EU), lowering the bar for access to finance (Banks), Tax Breaks (Government) and the Irish love of property possession.

CiaranC wrote:

Emmmm will you and others (usually FFers) stop this sh**e that it is all outside of his control

I am not a FFer - dont have any political affiliations at all.

P. Breathnach

kmick wrote: »

The property bubble was created by cheap money (EU), lowering the bar for access to finance (Banks), Tax Breaks (Government) and the Irish love of property possession.

I think that is broadly true. We even had the irony that a significant part of the demand for property was for those who came in to work in building to meet the demand.

But when we have cheap money and a liberal lending policy fuelling demand to the point where the market becomes distorted and prices inflate seriously out of line with the rest of the economy, it is the role of government to temper it, not to add to it.

LostinBlanch

Darragh29 wrote: »

One thing I notice about Cowen is that everyone keeps speaking of his "unquestionable intellect". Has anyone ever seen him doing anything intelligent??? This is a myth that was propagated since Ahern was preparing him for his baptism as Taoiseach. He doesn't appear any more intelligent than anyone else and even if he was, it is useless when you cannot communicate with people and are going around with your head up your arse.

Agreed, we keep on hearing about his supposed intelligence. It's just a case of repeat something enough times and some will eventually believe it. Mind you I can see where Bertie would regard him as intelligent if his competition was the likes of Willie O'Dea

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'd rather a leader that can inspire people and for this to be possible, you have to be able to relate to people. Someone who is telling us that we have no control over this economic problem, I would argue is lacking in intelligence...

Seriously Cowen has been found out big time, it's a hell of a change from all his cant about the fundamentals of the economy are sound. As for intelligence, I would say one of the measures of intelligence is how well someone adapts to changing cirumstances.

Darragh29

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Agreed, we keep on hearing about his supposed intelligence. It's just a case of repeat something enough times and some will eventually believe it. Mind you I can see where Bertie would regard him as intelligent if his competition was the likes of Willie O'Dea



Seriously Cowen has been found out big time, it's a hell of a change from all his cant about the fundamentals of the economy are sound. As for intelligence, I would say one of the measures of intelligence is how well someone adapts to changing cirumstances.

He was the same in Health when he was minister there, constantly going around with a beal bocht saying that action was out of his hands and up to consultants and nurses and doctors and everyone but himself. He ended up demanding a change in portfolio because he couldn't handle health, and left that department with every single sector of workers in the health sector either actively on strike or imminently threatening a strike. This is a capable intelligent agent of change that we now have running the country?!?!?!?!

lostexpectation

its global issues people :P

bmaxi

When you have a look at the qualifications the trio at the top of Government have, to be where they are, it gives some indication as to what is inherently wrong with Irish politics.

Cowen............ inherited Daddy's seat.
Lenihan.......... inherited Daddy's seat.
Coughlan....... inherited Daddy's seat.

The other day the Channel Island of Sark was described as the last refuge of feudalism in Europe, how wrong they were.
Until the Irish electorate cop on and start electing their representatives for their ability rather than their lineage we are going to continue to be plagued with gobsh***s like these.
Cowen so far has been an absolute disaster for the country. He runs around like a headless chicken rather than stand and face reality. He is over kissing Sarkozy's and Barrosa's a*ses when he should be here attempting to sort the sorry mess he and his equally incompetent cabinet have created.
No point hiding behind the " It's a world wide problem line", the bulk of Ireland's problems are homegrown and he and his mates sowed the seed.

CiaranC

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But when we have cheap money and a liberal lending policy fuelling demand to the point where the market becomes distorted and prices inflate seriously out of line with the rest of the economy, it is the role of government to temper it, not to add to it.

Bingo