Is Cowen paralysed as Taoiseach?

jdivision

kmick wrote: »

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus.

Eh, he was minister for finance during a lot of that. He wasted billions. He's had one hard job in his life - department of health - and he ran away from it. The guy's useless.

Darsad

The Lenihan brothers really take the biscuit !
I cant believe the state pays to transport both these muppets around I was so disappointed when the one ( Conor ) who sounds like his auty held on to his seat by the narrowest of margins

P. Breathnach

bmaxi wrote: »

Cowen............ inherited Daddy's seat.
Lenihan.......... inherited Daddy's seat.
Coughlan....... inherited Daddy's seat.

The didn't inherit seats. They ran for election, and were successful.

It's not fair to blame them for being feckless. They ran on a manifesto of fecklessness, and the voters chose that.

bmaxi

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The didn't inherit seats. They ran for election, and were successful.

It's not fair to blame them for being feckless. They ran on a manifesto of fecklessness, and the voters chose that.

I intended " inherited" in a loose way and I think you know that. It is the electorate who are to blame for not being able to see further than their noses. The old adage "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", might be appropriate.

turgon

bmaxi wrote: »

I intended " inherited" in a loose way and I think you know that. It is the electorate who are to blame for not being able to see further than their noses. The old adage "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", might be appropriate.

But unfortunatly the electorate are a unfamiliar with that saying as George Bush.

Mr.Micro

According to Biffo current economic problems are beyond our control, this is the man who was Finance Minister. So what is the point of him and the Government then? I would call that paralysed. Save an awful lot of money, get rid of the Government and let the EU rule us. Can this lot get any worse? Lenihan is turning into his batty auntie Mary. The long christmas break could not come soon enough for me as we will be spared, hopefully, any more musings of our wise Taoiseach for a month or so. Its a times like this that I long for Bertie.

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its a times like this that I long for Bertie.

Hey, things are bad, but they're not that bad.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Hey, things are bad, but they're not that bad.

Well at least Bertie would spin a yarn or two and not throw the towel in from the start. It hardly inspires one to try to get through this if the Taoiseach does not do his bit,even if it is just to boost morale, instead its a defeatist attitude, and I would really question Mr.Cowen's advisors if they advised such statements. To me it is unacceptable to say such things at this time.

AlekSmart

I don`t know about anybody else,but the overall impression of the RTE coverage of today`s Press Conference and subsequent interview with Mr Cowen was of a man who has arrived at a toll booth without any money

It is only right and proper to refer to Mr Cowen`s tenure as Minister for Finance as it was during this period that the storm clouds were really rumbling above the Midlands.

Either way the present Cabinet simply do not exude any great aura of competence and that is becoming a very worrying aspect of it all.

But as others point out we as an electorate have consistently re-elected this political generation and their fathers before them !!

Lot to be said for a constitutional Monarchy all the same ???

Bring back the High Kings I say :eek:

mike65

zootroid

kmick wrote: »

When it became public knowledge that Cowen was likely to replace Ahern unopposed we got quite a bit of 'blurb' about family man, service to his country, drinks a pint, sings, and a few other tidbits. Im my mind it was a bit like Brown in the UK in that it seemed that his long service meant that he was 'due' his shot at the big mans job.

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.
Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.
2. Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.
3. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"
4. Throwing money at large financial institutions who may or may not be in trouble. He says they are they say otherwise.
5. Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

My 2 cents to your points:

1) Budgets need to be cut as we cannot continue to borrow to fund the day to day running of the country. How the money is being spent leaves a lot to be desired though. Economists want to see a stimulus, such as investment in infrastructure, education etc. Cutting the budgets in these areas is counter productive.

2) Agree the pay deal should be put on hold. Always seems like pay increases for the sake of it. Don't think the country can afford it now. And I've never seen any evidence of increases in productivity because of it.

3) I agree about the taxes, increasing taxes across the board will not help the economy. The government needs to be smarter in how it spends its money, so that tax increases to balance the books are not necessary

4) The financial institutions are in trouble, the share price alone should tell you that. The fact that something like 90% has been wiped from their market capitalisation since the crisis began says it all.

5) In my opinion the Lisbon treaty needs to pass. I don't think the EU can operate as a trading block as effectively without it. I was surprised when it didn't pass, and when I heard the rubbish being spouted by the no camp (it will lead to abortion, legalised prostitution etc) I couldn't believe that people actually believed it.

Overall I have no sympathy for Cowen and co. For years they were warned about the over reliance on the construction industry but chose to ignore the warnings. The same thing happened in Japan and Scandanavia in the 90's, and so they can't complain to have been caught unawares or not know what the consequences would be. Even if the correct policies were put in place now, it will take a few years to reap the rewards of it. But as things stand I see nothing but dithering, from a government with no ideas on how to stop the slide.

On a side note, there are many countries around the world that are not in recession, eg Australia, so to blame the recession on global factors outside our control is simply not true. The credit crunch contributed to our downfall, but no more so than ourselves

Darragh29

zootroid wrote: »

My 2 cents to your points:

2) Agree the pay deal should be put on hold. Always seems like pay increases for the sake of it. Don't think the country can afford it now. And I've never seen any evidence of increases in productivity because of it.

It needs to go several degrees further than a pay pause I think. The people who are represented by unions at the partnership talks are the amongst the best paid people in the country. In the case of public sector workers, they have job security and pensions that are simply unaffordable.

The problem with partnership in this country is that it isn't partnership at all. The majority of employees in this country are not represented at partnership talks, because vested interests like Ibec and the American Chamber of Commerce have prevented the government from introducing legislation that would make union recognition compulsory. Who in all seriousness is going to join a union when a union is not recognised where they work???

So we have again, a tier problem with employment in the country, with unionised employees on a minority upper tier of employees who have been getting whatever they have asked for, for years now, and then you have a large number of lower tier empoyees who have never been represented through partnership.

What we need is a 10% pay cut for people who are represented at the partnership talks. Some semi state organisations have been utterly protected and spoilt for years now, Irish Rail, ESB, Dublin Bus, etc. The employees of these organisations, with militant unions that have people in low skilled jobs on 70K a year and upwards, need to be brought down to reality with a bang.

I've a mate who is a train driver and I honestly don't believe some of the stories he tells me about where he works. They have a back up driver to a scheduled driver if a scheduled driver calls in sick and they have a second back up driver to the main back up, in case the back up driver to the main driver calls in sick!?!?!?!

He isn't a bit worried about the recession, he's on completely stupid money (70K plus) and has as much overtime as he wants. This is the type of mentality that is bedded in at partnership level... Why in all that is holy would you give anyone in this situation a pay increase???

jmayo

Darragh29 wrote: »

...

The problem with partnership in this country is that it isn't partnership at all. The majority of employees in this country are not represented at partnership talks, because vested interests like Ibec and the American Chamber of Commerce have prevented the government from introducing legislation that would make union recognition compulsory. Who in all seriousness is going to join a union when a union is not recognised where they work???

...
What we need is a 10% pay cut for people who are represented at the partnership talks. Some semi state organisations have been utterly protected and spoilt for years now, Irish Rail, ESB, Dublin Bus, etc. The employees of these organisations, with militant unions that have people in low skilled jobs on 70K a year and upwards, need to be brought down to reality with a bang.
...

Agree on the fact that public sector heavily unionised workers have been given anything they want just to be quiet.
Also agree that some public sector workers need kick in ar** and need to appreciate fact they have secruity of tenure and great DB pensions.
Thus they need to pay more tax or have less wages than private sector workers without these benefits.

Do not agree that everywhere should have a union.
Get aunion in the door and if you get a militant shopstewart then the company is f***ed.
Force foreign multinationals to accept unions and you will either get them to close and move elsewhere or else they will not invest in the first place.

Historically moderm technology companies do not have unionsied employees and that is probably one reason they have been successful and have pushed forward.
Look at industries that had heavy unionsed employees, e.g car industry, which is in a mess worldwide, particularly in the US and the Uk one no longer exists because of unions.

Most foreign multiantionals in this country would be excellent employers and they rather keep their employees happy than have a union in the place.

If you think unions are the solution rather than the problem then you are sorely mistaken.
If anything the unions need to be broken, ala Thatcher.

Yeah unionise everyone and we can all be on the dole.
Smart move.

kmick

zootroid wrote: »

On a side note, there are many countries around the world that are not in recession, eg Australia, so to blame the recession on global factors outside our control is simply not true. The credit crunch contributed to our downfall, but no more so than ourselves

The Australian banks are heavily regulated and this has helped them escape the worst of the recession. My mates working there tell me in the last 3 month it is very hard to get work so I guess its starting to bite over there.

Darragh29

jmayo wrote: »

Do not agree that everywhere should have a union.
Get aunion in the door and if you get a militant shopstewart then the company is f***ed.
Force foreign multinationals to accept unions and you will either get them to close and move elsewhere or else they will not invest in the first place.

Historically moderm technology companies do not have unionsied employees and that is probably one reason they have been successful and have pushed forward.
Look at industries that had heavy unionsed employees, e.g car industry, which is in a mess worldwide, particularly in the US and the Uk one no longer exists because of unions.

Most foreign multiantionals in this country would be excellent employers and they rather keep their employees happy than have a union in the place.

If you think unions are the solution rather than the problem then you are sorely mistaken.
If anything the unions need to be broken, ala Thatcher.

Yeah unionise everyone and we can all be on the dole.
Smart move.

I only think that union recognition should be compulsory because of one experience I had working for a large multinational in this country. No promotional opportunities were advertised, everything was jobs for the boys, no matter what qualifications or experience you had, you would not even know a vacancy existed. The first you would know there was an opportunity for promotion was when the guy you worked with on a Friday came into work as your new manager the following Monday. This kind of corruption is what you will inevitably get when you have closed workplaces that are shut off from the outside world. You would be amazed at how some of the large multinational organisations in Ireland actually operate. Thing's that unionised workplaces take for granted like advertising vacancies where you work, and a modest annual payrise, don't exist in some of the biggest organisations in the country.

Having said that, maybe unions are not the answer, maybe much stronger legislation is the answer. Personally I'd prefer to deal directly with my employer. But there is a serious problem in this kip with vested interests like Ibec and The American Chamber of Commerce blocking progress on social justice issues like fair employment rules. Look at the LRC (Labour Relations Commission), you can take an employer to the LRC, your employer doesn't have to turn up, if you win your case, the recommendation doesn't have to be acccepted by your employer, they can wipe their arse with the recommendation and then flush it away without a consequence in the world.

DublinWriter

AlekSmart wrote: »

I don`t know about anybody else,but the overall impression of the RTE coverage of today`s Press Conference and subsequent interview with Mr Cowen was of a man who has arrived at a toll booth without any money

Nice analogy.

I heard his speech, then Harney's, they Gormley's and then I started internally panicking, flipping through their 90-page document thinking to myself "no one is at the f*cking wheel anymore".

They are almost a couple of league points under Robert Mugabe in terms of delusional aspirations.

Tableman

His constant referral to Fine Gael with the line "Well, if you lot were in charge, things would be a whole lot worse" or something with that gist is getting very tiring. Fianna Fail have been in power for so long that I dont really see how they can be coming with that kind of stuff.

AlekSmart

As I see it the period 2009-2012 will be pivotal for this country.

It is now somewhat frighteningly apparent that the present Cabinet do not actually have a functional degree of control over the direction our Country is headed.

I am aware that we are members of the European Union and as such we have signed up willingly to a set of protocols which impose a certain level of discipline upon us all.

Events elsewhere in Europe,Belgium being a good example do however show a marked difference in how our native political culture operates.

The Fortis Bank scandal has brought down the present Government in Belgium,with only the Kings wishes maintaining a caretaker Government.

I would argue that on the Belgian scale,events here over the past 12 months would have merited the Taoiseach and his Cabinet being drawn through the streets in a tumbril before a rendezvous with Madame Guillotine.

It is not merely the scale of the "delusional aspirations" which terrify me,but the extent to which the entire business of managing a functional democracy appears to have ceased.

Much of this cessation appears to be a direct result of the manner in which our Parliamentary system operates.

By far and away the best debate and most cutting investigative work I have come across has been done at Dàil Committee level which sadly then is left at that with no means of transferring that impetus to the Legislature itself.

The current desperate situation really should be focussing strong attention on the entirety of Ireland Inc`s collapse rather than merely picking the "Public Service" issue and doing it to death.

There are few countries which operate without a Public Service,indeed most that do also have a degree of inner angst about the public vs private arguement,BUT,they don`t allow that to stifle debate or movement on other areas also.

Take the home of Capitalism itself.
Does anybody seriously think that America Ltd operates as a totally market driven,privately run democracy?

Well those that did got a tremendous kick up the transom (remember that) this week as Uncle Sam effectively nationalizes Motor City itself.
This after virtually doing the same thing with vast swathes of its banking and homeloan sectors also.

Here in Ireland Plc we have interminable gut wrenching arguement over the evils of Public Service and the truly massive benefits which will be available to all once the Public Service is Privatized.

Few appear to realize that what the Public Sector has always lacked in Ireland is any form of serious policy direction from those whose policies it was tasked with implimenting.

This Political ill or non will has been characterized by a phenomonal over reliance on (Expensive) self fulfilling Consultants Reports,Reviews and Strategy Documents,none of which have made much sense considering the system which exists.

As of now the reality is that vast amounts of public funds have simply disappeared,with no explaination as to where it went.
The general reasoning is that the World economic collapse took all of Paddy`s funds with it,but I am somewhat less prepared to simply accept that and slink away.

What we now have is a country and its people who have been hoodwinked and allowed to become lazy and dependant to an extent only truly appreciated by those who have lived on mainland Europe or perhaps in the USA itslef.

In decades to come we may witness the airbrushing of mssrs Cowen,Harney,Aherne from our history altogether as their contributions will be seen as the ending of an independent Irish existence.:o

Darragh29

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is now somewhat frighteningly apparent that the present Cabinet do not actually have a functional degree of control over the direction our Country is headed.

I agree that it is nothing less than frightening at what we are now seeing. I think Eamon Gilmore, although I wouldn't vote for him on the basis of what I've seen to date, started something this week when he tackled the government on this very issue but he failed to follow through on what he was saying on the basis that he felt that if he did, it would cause "further damage". Well guess what Eamon, not saying what you have to say is what is really going to cause the damage. Staying in this hopeless situation is what is going to ultimately cause us the most damage.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am aware that we are members of the European Union and as such we have signed up willingly to a set of protocols which impose a certain level of discipline upon us all.

Well you would think so. But this recession is barely upon us, we're not even 6 months into this and already, we are looking at being 200% above and beyond our 3% GDP deficit limit imposed by the EU's Stability and Growth Pact (SGP).

bmaxi

By far the most frightening thing IMO is, trawl through the front bench, even the back benches of the Government parties and try and spot somebody who would give you some confidence. I've tried and I can't.

AlekSmart

Yes bmaxi that IS a very worrying and all too obvious aspect of Irish Political life.

It really does go back to the Lemass era and the emergence of the Haughey influence, an opinion I state without reference to Fianna Fàil as a party as the reality of Fianna Fàil dominance is so well accepted.

I have posted on other threads about my thorough detestation for the West Link Toll and the introduction of Road Tolling generally.

If anybody wants to correllate where it REALLY began to go wrong then the entire West Link/National Toll Roads/West Dublin scenario contains all of the necessary elements by the skipfull.

The dodgy land deals,sharp planning practices,non-existant oversight and downright collusion with criminality all dressed up in PR puff and designed to be future proof....and guess what...It worked and continues to work on a massive scale today.

The West Link model was the initial dry run for such self-aggrandising schemes and one which continues unabated today.

Take the Anglo Irish Bank scandal,where it appears that no actual law has been breached by Seàn Fitzpatrick of by his fellow senior exec`s in the Industry as a whole.

The Financial Regulator appears to be a very dapper fellow who is held in high esteem by the industry also...no great risk of discovery there so.....

Whilst all of this is going on the Minister for Finance remains aloof and detached from the bear-pit financial thuggery going on down below....do you see a pattern developing.....

Minister for Health declares there`s too many staff in A&E Departments whilst actuality contridcts her full-on

Minister for Transport sez that Bus Atha Cliath has more than enough buses to cater for its requirements.......Reality,in the form of sodden queue`s of disgruntled customers tell him otherwise also.

The same common thread is running all the way through the Cabinet...a divorce from reality which is stupifying to observe.

The real threat to stability will be the attitude the Government takes towards our Social Welfare system and whether or not It can continue to maintain its current establishment.

The huge and sudden increase in elegible insured contributory claimants added to the numbers of non-contributory claimants from other juristictions who are presenting for benefit is yet another big Yellow Elephant in the corner of the room.

We now have a big simmering cauldron of Social Soup bubbling perilously near the rim.
Yet all we hear in terms of "debate" is the Public Service babble which skillfully manages to skirt around the issue of what happens when the Social Welfare gruel runs out......will those happy well fed recipients simply walk away with a smile and a nod?......I think not

Has the current administration any plans to deal with the emptying pot reality...:o

I`m usually a glass half-full person but try as I might to adhere to that principle here I`m finding it tough going.....

Mind you,If I could only get myself onto the board of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority I might be able to put a little by for the rainy day....

Mr.Micro

Take the Anglo Irish Bank scandal,where it appears that no actual law has been breached by Seàn Fitzpatrick of by his fellow senior exec`s in the Industry as a whole.

The Financial Regulator appears to be a very dapper fellow who is held in high esteem by the industry also...no great risk of discovery there so.....

Some regulator he is, and who was Minister for Finance when all this was going on? So far Anglo appears to be the only bank that 2 of the top guys have gone, not out of respect but because they were caught.:rolleyes: These very people, that is the Financial Regulator, batty Brian Lenihan and the banks with all the same executives in place are going to fix the financial institutions. HELP!

ravendude

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Financial Regulator appears to be a very dapper fellow who is held in high esteem by the industry also...no great risk of discovery there so.....

I other words he's a complete Yes man for the industry, - stays out of their way and lets them get on with things.
I bet they love him

Darragh29

You couldn't make some of this sh*t up...

A bank with a loan of 87 million Euro to a director, I'd be interested to know what securities the bank has from the director in the event of a default. Oh wait a minute, the bank doesn't need one because we're guaranteeing it! What was I thinking there for a minute!

Darragh29

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Some regulator he is, and who was Minister for Finance when all this was going on? So far Anglo appears to be the only bank that 2 of the top guys have gone, not out of respect but because they were caught.:rolleyes: These very people, that is the Financial Regulator, batty Brian Lenihan and the banks with all the same executives in place are going to fix the financial institutions. HELP!

He's obviously a completely useless C*NT who ought to be dropped off the highest brick in the Central Bank...

Mr.Micro

ravendude wrote: »

I other words he's a complete Yes man for the industry, - stays out of their way and lets them get on with things.
I bet they love him

So far he has proved that in his office's actions. Does the guy actually know what a "tracker mortgage is"?

Mr.Micro

About 18 months ago I had a few bob in the BoI on deposit, earning low interest. I decided to ask the bank for a better interest rate. I was invited in to meet a financial advisor who wanted me to invest in various funds, etc. I said I just wanted a better interest rate on my account. I was then asked to provide my passport,proof of address, current earning status etc despite the fact I had been with the bank for 10 years and the same address. Yet the likes of the guys at Anglo and the other banks doing as they like and I was being hauled over the coals for asking for a better rate. In the end I put the few bob in the credit union.

Phototoxin

credit unions should run the banks... our wee one in denleer made €2,000,000 last year. Not to shoddy.

The nepotism in Irish politics is a joke. Its scary the amount of sons, daughters and even grandsons there are. Holding onto the same seats as there father. I think Labour should do as well as 92 in the next few elections. They were calling for regulation a few years ago and nobody was listening. Maybe the old civil war politics can be done away with.

+10000 I agree. I cannot understand this mentality. ITs the reason that most of the time we have FF. Also the whole give the son his fathers seat CRAP just shows how unequal and how much of a closed, pseudo class based system it is.

To be honest, I used to think that as well, but what I'm seeing now from Cowen on the leadership front is so utterly breathtaking, that bad and all as Enda kenny is, I would consider him better than Cowen, and a year ago, I was saying that I would never vote for FG.

But sure he's never been taoiseach.. why not give him the chance... he is one of the longest there XD

But when we have cheap money and a liberal lending policy fuelling demand to the point where the market becomes distorted and prices inflate seriously out of line with the rest of the economy, it is the role of government to temper it, not to add to it.

yeah but when the government are as crooked and plain stupid as ours it aint gonna happen!

Mr.Micro

Its going to take some regulation changes for the banks when Fitzpatrick at Anglo can borrow 87 Million and it not show up in the books, nor apparently was it even illegal. Now thats some stunt. Lawyer, banker, chancer and magican all rolled into one. Massive changes in regulation are needed and no more self regulation.

bmaxi

I'm not a supporter of FF but I would have no great love for FG either. One thing that has happened over the years is rhat FF have repeatedly made a ballo**s of the economy and by providence have been voted out at the next General Election. This time providence hasn't intervened and they are left to clean up their own sh*t, the chickens are coming home to roost and the public are being treated to a grandstand view of the corrupt practises that have been introduced and maintained by successive administrations.
You have to ask however; Just how long has this been going on, is it only in the term of this Government? Fine Gael and Labour, if they form the next Government (and given the stupidity or apathy or whatever, of the Irish electorate, that is by no means certain) are really going to have to blitz all these quangos and institutions if they are not to be seen as complicit.