Is Cowen paralysed as Taoiseach?

jmayo

Darragh29 wrote: »

I only think that union recognition should be compulsory because of one experience I had working for a large multinational in this country. No promotional opportunities were advertised, everything was jobs for the boys, no matter what qualifications or experience you had, you would not even know a vacancy existed. The first you would know there was an opportunity for promotion was when the guy you worked with on a Friday came into work as your new manager the following Monday. This kind of corruption is what you will inevitably get when you have closed workplaces that are shut off from the outside world. You would be amazed at how some of the large multinational organisations in Ireland actually operate. Thing's that unionised workplaces take for granted like advertising vacancies where you work, and a modest annual payrise, don't exist in some of the biggest organisations in the country.

Listen if you think that it is better in public sector then guest again, the jobs are advertised but the interview panel may have already made the decison who gets it.
I know stories of people giving cr** interviews, the non local panel member said so, but the rest just said "ahh they must be having a bad day and they are the best person for the job" :rolleyes:

There are vested interests in every country, look at US lobbying groups.
The problem you highlighted about LRC is one that should have resulted in tougher legislation. Look at case of Jimmy Quinn and the case of his company not paying South African driver. Nothing done to date :rolleyes:

As regards the main topic Biffo ran a mile from the hardest portfolio he ever had. He did nothing about stopping section grants for housing.
Were the section grants not meant to help regeneration rather than allow building of multiple housing estates in Leitrim villages that are targetted as holdiay homes for rich Dubliners who may use the Shannon ?

The financial regulator is a complete joke, why are they asking for his resignation ?
He should just be fired for incompetence and no effing parachutes, but a good kick in the ar**.
Does nobody get fired in the sh**hole of a banana republic ?

Anglo were at this cr** and it wasn't just one or two top executives who knew, why doesn't the minister have the balls to come out and say they are no longer part of the guarantee scheme.
Either that or complete nationalisation, but looking at their record it is probably more trouble than it is worth.
Also was it not Fingelton's little empire over in irish Nationwide that facilitated this cr**.
If so drop them as well.

It is about time the semi solvent and legit banks are saved and the rest, well screw them.
Save the depositors, try and help the employees but let them go bust.

But of course Biffo and his government haven't got the balls to do anything, at least until they are told by the banking executives.

AlekSmart

A big +1 tp jmayo on that post

Unfortunately the current Government merely reflects the National ethos on these matters.

Gene Kerrigan,in todays Sindo, is the first Journo I have seen writing about the very real possibility of Civil Unrest when the Social Welfare system is forced to constrict if not cease operations altogether.

Nobody wishes to admit that if the current situation worsen`s then all bet`s are off when it comes to survival.

Else where on the Sindo`s bill of fare is a reference to the closure of some high-profile golf courses and multi-star hotels.

Herein lies yet another of the reasons why our Economy is poised to crumble to dust.
When we DID have the cash,our Government took pride in doling it out to the backers of coot-crazy schemes such as Top-End Golf "Resorts" and elegant Shannon side Marinas which created few jobs of worth and usually imposed far greater strains on depleted local infrastructure.

Even this week we had another Lunatic plan promising 1,000 Jobs in West Dublin (15).....Yes indeed a real coup for the IDA or Fàs or perhaps Disney/Pixar......a freakin INDOOR SKI SLOPE !!!
God give me strength...1,000 Jobs.....more like it`ll take a 1,000 men in white coats to haul the proprietors of this stuff off to Portrane.

Doubtless the projections envisage the hoi-polloi of Europe queuing in the dawn light to book "exclusive" packages to the indoor Blanchardstown Alps....:D

Supporting or bankrolling this type of stuff has left us penniless.

I`m confident that those posters who know or have knowledge of native small business proprietors,especially those NOT involved in the hi-tech supposedly sexy added-value R&D stuff,will have plenty of accounts of the Small Native Entrepreneur being sent packing as the funds were flung around the 19th Holes and Varnished Slipways of the chosen few.

This State aided destruction of our last great REAL asset,our landscape,has left us now with nothing to offer a discerning tourist market save for lines of unsustainable ever more grandiose detached bungalows etched into what was wild wonderful and REAL countryside.

What we now have is a serious amount of our population living a lifestyle that is rapidly becoming totally unsustainable,a reality that will be underlined in the nearest of futures as the essential services collapse due to withdrawal of funding.

Its perfectly acceptable to point to the rest-of-the-world and say "sure its the same all over"...except that it`s NOT.

As one of the most recent accquisitors of wealth,modern Ireland was in a unique position to use that wealth in creative and inniovative ways which could and would have avoided the mistakes made by other countries.

Well we did`nt and encouraged by long established Political dwarves we pixxed it up again the wall.

Next time RTE show Newsreel of Western Irish natives chairing the likes of Padraig and Beverley Flynn around local halls then ask oneself if we truly can blame anybody other than OURSELVES ! :mad:

jmayo

AlekSmart wrote: »

A big +1 tp jmayo on that post
...
Its perfectly acceptable to point to the rest-of-the-world and say "sure its the same all over"...except that it`s NOT.

As one of the most recent accquisitors of wealth,modern Ireland was in a unique position to use that wealth in creative and inniovative ways which could and would have avoided the mistakes made by other countries.

Well we did`nt and encouraged by long established Political dwarves we pixxed it up again the wall.

Next time RTE show Newsreel of Western Irish natives chairing the likes of Padraig and Beverley Flynn around local halls then ask oneself if we truly can blame anybody other than OURSELVES ! :mad:

AlekSmart we are singing from the same hymm sheet.
The government and their sometimes propaganda machine, RTE, were laduiing the fact a few months back that 500 or something odd new jobs would be created in Dundrum Town centre.
This was the same week that there were manufacturing and service exporting business closures all over the country.

FFS the only person that i have heard come out and say the truth about the fact we built so much retail space over the last 4 years was Ben Dunne.
Who are going to shop in all these new shops. Especially now that people are heading up to Newry etc.

A prime example of this white elephant is The Beacon South Quarter in Sandyford in Dublin.
The only business doing well is the Dunnes Stores.
There are three fancy lifestyle, living, furniture shops and one kitchen shop.
There is never any customers in these, these shops have had sales, summers sales, discounts, specials etc for the last 6 months.
I am currently running a book on which one goes first.

Retail is consumer spending dependent and if people have no money then retail is f***ed.
But retail (be it home living related or not), entertainment, restaruants, hotels, hospitals, creches and nursing home appears to be all that was invested since 2002. Most of the hotels and hospitals were due to tax incentives given to wealthy individuals.
How many of these various things will survive ?
And now who in their right mind would invest in an indoor ski slope at this time :rolleyes:
Yeah I can see all those saving their dole to go sking in the Alps going out there for some lessons pretrip.

The amount of crazy sh** that was going on during the building boom. I know builders (and no not the real high flyers that have left the banks f***ed) who were buying racehorses, helicopters etc.
Now they have nothing and are trying to scrape a few quid together to stay afloat.
The sad thing is the country was run in much the same fashion :mad:

bmaxi

I see Cowen is off to visit the troops in Kosovo. In the present climate, is this the right time for a Taoiseach to be around Irish citizens who have guns?:D

Darragh29

jmayo wrote: »

The amount of crazy sh** that was going on during the building boom. I know builders (and no not the real high flyers that have left the banks f***ed) who were buying racehorses, helicopters etc.
Now they have nothing and are trying to scrape a few quid together to stay afloat.
The sad thing is the country was run in much the same fashion :mad:

I know one small time builder with a helicopter! That's how mad it got!!! And he has a racehorse or a share on one!

Darragh29

jmayo wrote: »

FFS the only person that i have heard come out and say the truth about the fact we built so much retail space over the last 4 years was Ben Dunne.
Who are going to shop in all these new shops. Especially now that people are heading up to Newry etc.

Another helicopter fan who can't get rid of his machine now!

AlekSmart

I am very familiar with the entire Sandyford/Beacon "Quarter" or to give it the far more realistic title the Sandyford Industrial Estate.

The SIE could be taken as a textbook example of the complete absense of sense in possibly every organ of the Irish Political and Administrative Sector.

Today`s news of the shutdown of the South Bar and Grill says it all about what`s in store for the temple to national overindulgence that is the Beacon Quarter.

The fact that two of Irelands highest profile "New Wave" restauranteur`s have thrown in the towel after less than a year underlines the fragility of the entire Beacon "experience".

Is there nobody around to ask why the Local Authority only belatedly imposed a moratorium on any further large scale development in the entire Sandyford/Stepaside region due to the inability of EXISTING services infrastructure to cope with the present demand level :eek:

For Gods sake,this is the very reason we HAVE Local Authority Planning Departments, Bord`s Pleanala etc....to evaluate and advise on the levels of SUSTAINABLE development....instead in this case it appears that wild eyed local political grandees and their national backers won the day in overriding the nay-sayers.

What is Sandyford area now left with..?

Vast amounts of unfinished "Luxury" apartments with equally large numbers of underground car parking,which is just as well due to the total inability of the local feeder road network to cater for the present level of through traffic without adding any new resedential quotient.

Is this the "New" Irish notion of a quarter....well if so, we have a scary new definition to add to the english language.....Beacon Quarter = Bleak Desolation.

This desertification principle is replicated all over Dublin and most likely each of the other 26 counties also.

Just walk around the unfinished apartment blocks in Tallaght.....empty pre-deriliction with little or no prospect of anybody being suckered into buying them...with or without half crazed panic stricken shared-ownership or State financed schemes.

I believe the crisis we now have is less about Financial issues than about the more emotional one of Betrayal and one might even say Treachery.

Never in my memory has general public regard for the principle of Government been at such a low level.
Nobody yet appears to understand just how great a threat this lack of regard poses to the ability of the Nation to make any form of structured recovery for if we have lost our National Self-Regard then we have nothing else left.

Yes perhaps we do need a massive self purging of our Political Establishment and its inappropriate methodoligies.

Ben Dunne,for all of his quite blatently obvious faults,at least stood up and acknowledged them and to an extent beat the rap.

Nowhere in any of the events of the past six-months have I heard or read of our Politicians accepting that they were responsible for a decay of moral and social fabric which may yet be fatal. :mad:

Mr.Micro

Retail is consumer spending dependent and if people have no money then retail is f***ed.
But retail (be it home living related or not), entertainment, restaruants, hotels, hospitals, creches and nursing home appears to be all that was invested since 2002. Most of the hotels and hospitals were due to tax incentives given to wealthy individuals.
How many of these various things will survive

I note few people spending in the shops, and any that do it is cautious. In Tesco items priced in £ were half again in Euro eg. an item priced £4 was 6 euro or £10 was 15 euro. So I looked in Dunnes and noted exactly the same, an item I looked at at the 2 prices £45 and 69 euro is how is that for conversion and virtual parity between £ and Euro, not in Ireland though. I even note that online retailers Play, Amazon and others still charge rate of £1 to 1.5 euro. When is it going to end? Then these retailers wonder why people will not spend in their stores. Rip off Ireland. If anything this recession has brought home to me that we have no control over anything and Biffo admitted as much during the week. So in effect Ireland might as well be a bit of driftwood on the seas. It does not bode well for the future if we cannot controle or at least steer our destiny, as it is now down to chance.


With regard to another point raised earlier about internal promotion, nothing has changed since I was young. It always disgusts me. I went for many an interview in the past with the job already gone. As an interviewee one is just a morning's entertainment for the interview panel. After being at such an interview in 1991 I complained, after I found out that the job was already gone. I was told it was good experience for me. It is no wonder there are so many incompetents in big jobs here, and how when things go bad, as in now, there is nobody with any talent home to deal with it.

Mr.Micro

5.5 billion euro re capitalization agreed for the banks, including the Anglo Irish. Bonuses all round I will bet for the bankers, and just in time for Christmas.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1221/bank.html

jmayo

Anyone hear the joke supposedly doing the rounds in British Financial circles.

"What is the difference between Ireland and Iceland ?
One letter and about 6 months."

How can they seriously allow Anglo into the bailout.
It is a walking disaster, the directors loans were nearly the highest in the World :rolleyes:
No privateinvestor will now touch them with a barge pole.
Have their shares even moved after the announcement ?
As always the public carry the can thanks to our so called political leaders.
Biffo and his bunch are spineless.
The only thing they are achieving is driving the country into the ground.

"A lot done, a lot more to do" me ar** :mad:

P. Breathnach

jmayo wrote: »

How can they seriously allow Anglo into the bailout.

What would happen if it was allowed to collapse? We are between a rock and a hard place.

It is a walking disaster, the directors loans were nearly the highest in the World :rolleyes:
No privateinvestor will now touch them with a barge pole.
Have their shares even moved after the announcement ?

I gather their shares have fallen again. Bad news for shareholders, many of whom are in no way to blame for the things that were done wrong. But that is the risk you have to be willing to take if you invest in a company.

I would be concerned if the share prices moved up a great deal: that might show that the terms of the recapitalisation were too generous.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What would happen if it was allowed to collapse? We are between a rock and a hard place.

The same as we do when other businesses fail, clean up the mess and move on. It is remarkable in recent times how the only part of the capitalist system that doesn't fail is the bank.

Capitalism relies on failure being possible. No matter what the price, when you fail, you should fail. This bank is only worth around 300 million. Let it fail.

This notion that a bank cannot fail is pure rubbish...

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

This notion that a bank cannot fail is pure rubbish...

The notion that a bank can fail without causing significant damage is pure rubbish.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The notion that a bank can fail without causing significant damage is pure rubbish.

Every business that fails leaves damage behind it. What is the worst that will happen if a bank is allowed to fail in this country???

Mr.Micro

Darragh29 wrote: »

Every business that fails leaves damage behind it. What is the worst that will happen if a bank is allowed to fail in this country???

That's just it, the banks HAVE failed.In the real world such business are no longer viable and a drastic restructuring is needed but they are rescued with little condition it appears. Bailed out with the very same incompetents in charge. That is the real tragedy here, good money after bad. The rotten apples are still there. Where is the logic in keeping these people and their failed culture in office? Its only taxpayers/pension fund money, so no worries. They do not have the respect or grace to resign but abound with arrogance and conceit.

genericgoon

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What would happen if it was allowed to collapse? We are between a rock and a hard place.



I gather their shares have fallen again. Bad news for shareholders, many of whom are in no way to blame for the things that were done wrong. But that is the risk you have to be willing to take if you invest in a company.

I would be concerned if the share prices moved up a great deal: that might show that the terms of the recapitalisation were too generous.

Actually i think in this case it should be allowed to fail. Although, I think it would be preferable if it was folded into one of the other banks, perhaps with the Government providing financial sweeteners for the additional risk this will mean. Anglo Irish Bank has simply lost all trust from investors and without that trust, it is going to be impossible for Anglo to continue to survive in any meaningful way. Investors have already given their damning judgement on Anglo and it will take many expensive years for any amount of respect to be built up for Anglo and even then the poor decision making and scandals which have emerged will always hang like a dark cloud over the name. However, I think at this stage Anglo is seen as the 'cowboy' bank of the Irish banking system, so I think its dissolution will have a much smaller effect on the wider Irish financial system than it would have had at the start of the whole financial crisis mess.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

Every business that fails leaves damage behind it. What is the worst that will happen if a bank is allowed to fail in this country???

It would involve more effort to explain it all to you than I am up to. But start your thinking here: about €100,000,000,000.00 (read that carefully -- one hundred thousand million euros) would be thrown into limbo. Most, maybe even all, of it would be recovered eventually, but only after long delays.

Mind you, the guarantee scheme created by the government means that you and I as taxpayers would cover depositors while we waited for the dust to settle.

P. Breathnach

genericgoon wrote: »

Actually i think in this case it should be allowed to fail. Although, I think it would be preferable if it was folded into one of the other banks, perhaps with the Government providing financial sweeteners for the additional risk this will mean. Anglo Irish Bank has simply lost all trust from investors and without that trust, it is going to be impossible for Anglo to continue to survive in any meaningful way. Investors have already given their damning judgement on Anglo and it will take many expensive years for any amount of respect to be built up for Anglo and even then the poor decision making and scandals which have emerged will always hang like a dark cloud over the name. However, I think at this stage Anglo is seen as the 'cowboy' bank of the Irish banking system, so I think its dissolution will have a much smaller effect on the wider Irish financial system than it would have had at the start of the whole financial crisis mess.

I agree with the general thrust of what you say after your opening sentence -- basically, some kind of managed rundown.

genericgoon

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I agree with the general thrust of what you say after your opening sentence -- basically, some kind of managed rundown.

Yes, I suppose I should of clarified it would have to be a controlled winddown. Having the volatility and uncertainty of an uncontrolled bank collapse is really not what a skittish market needs to see. But I do think Anglo as an entity is a lame duck and needs to dissolved somehow. Its just finding a way that satisfies the taxpayer and doesn't unduly damage the wider financial system. However, I think the perception of Anglo atm should make it feasible to fold up Anglo w/o sending the entire system's reputation any further down the toilet.

Mr.Micro

Is that not the nub of the problem with banks, in that they as institutions were given the power, mandate with little or no real regulation to run our finances. So when they go wrong, and banks as private businesses should go to the wall in reality, but they have a unique position in that they have everybodys finances, so we the country are held over a barrel no matter what the banks do.

There needs to be radical changes as the banks can no longer be trusted and their judgments are incompetent and negligent. So saving thr Anglo IMO may be a cost too much as the banks have still not declared all the skeletons in the cupboard.

Darragh29

The worst message you can give any business is that it cannot fail. Whatever mechanism that could be put together to close down these businesses, when you cannot trade, you cannot trade, so you should not be bailed out.

Eurosceptic2008

kmick wrote: »

When it became public knowledge that Cowen was likely to replace Ahern unopposed we got quite a bit of 'blurb' about family man, service to his country, drinks a pint, sings, and a few other tidbits. Im my mind it was a bit like Brown in the UK in that it seemed that his long service meant that he was 'due' his shot at the big mans job.

Since he came to power circumstances beyond his control mean that issues which have been brewing for a decade around government spending, civil service efficiency, civil disorder and countless others have now been thrown into sharp focus. Now he cannot be blamed for these however he can be judged on his response to them.

Some of Cowens proposals to address these measures include

1. Slashing of government budgets which most agree is economically counterproductive.

Cowen doing this? I'll believe it when I see it, but at the moment all I am seeing on that score is a pattern of big announcements followed by swift rowbacks. It's like Haughey in the early 1980's - tell us we're living beyond our means but do nothing about it. I hope I am proved wrong, but I don't expect to be.

Insistence that a national pay deal which in reality is just a "pay money for old rope" scheme will somehow be a panacea.

1. Increasing taxes even though the government motto used to be "decrease taxes to promote growth"

True and it's unforgivable. They are sacrificing the private-sector on the altar of the Partnership ATM. It is unforgivable that the public-secor are getting a 6% pay increase while private-sector workers are forced to accept 10% pay-cuts or job losses.

Spending vast amounts of time dealing with a European treaty which needs to be passed but in the medium term will not address day to day running of ireland inc

I don't agree that it needs to be passed, but I do agree the govt's priorities seem scewed towards EU institutional issues at the expense of the economy.

So my take is that Cowen is paralysed. He just does not have the vision to lead us out of this recession in better shape than we went in. Can someone please re-assure me that he has it all under control please?

I agree. It's like Bertie after 2002 except to be fair to him he ducked the issue of public-sector reform, whereas Cowen trumpets it but doesn't deliver on it. :rolleyes:

kmick

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1223/economy.html



..."However, he said that if we do the right things now we can get back to our previous position reasonably quickly. He said that to that end, the social partnership model is the right model, a problem-solving model."..

A problem solving model...well if the problem is how to award pay rises to the public sector without reform then its ideal.

We are in deep trouble if the man in charge thinks partnership will have even the slightest effect.

johnnyskeleton

kmick wrote: »

As regards Lenihan and Coughlan I know as local TD's they are excellent. For example Coughlan got my sister in law a passport at short notice. On the other side of it there is no new thinking from them.

Did she actually get the passport or was it mere co-incidence which she took the credit for?

Darragh29

He is still talking absolute h*rse sh*te about social partnership and that this is the forum in which all our problems will be resolved.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1223/economy.html

I don't know what this guy is smoking lately but if he thinks that the unions and other vested interests are going to be able to contribute anything positive to our current situation, then he is sorely mistaken. The people at the partnership table still think they are getting a pay increase next year ffs!?!?!?!?!

While those that are not represented at the partnership talks are currently down in the dole office...

P. Breathnach

Darragh29, are you looking for a rabble to lead?

Partnership was a key contributor to our economic growth over a long period. Among other things, it enabled the profitability of business to grow at a rate faster than wage increases. The unions quietly accepted that.

It was not partnership that created the property bubble: it was individual and corporate greed, combined with political and administrative failures to rein them in. Nor was it our partnership model that created the international credit crisis that adds to our self-inflicted problems.

The unions have been far more temperate in what they have been saying about how to proceed than you have been in attacking them. You need to pay proper attention to how public discourse is conducted.

That said, what Cowen has said about partnership is ill-judged; he seems to lack the skills needed for setting the tone for public discussion. And he makes people like you mad.

We are all in this together. It's not a good time to advocate that we start fighting with one another.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Darragh29, are you looking for a rabble to lead?

Partnership was a key contributor to our economic growth over a long period. Among other things, it enabled the profitability of business to grow at a rate faster than wage increases. The unions quietly accepted that.

It was not partnership that created the property bubble: it was individual and corporate greed, combined with political and administrative failures to rein them in. Nor was it our partnership model that created the international credit crisis that adds to our self-inflicted problems.

The unions have been far more temperate in what they have been saying about how to proceed than you have been in attacking them. You need to pay proper attention to how public discourse is conducted.

That said, what Cowen has said about partnership is ill-judged; he seems to lack the skills needed for setting the tone for public discussion. And he makes people like you mad.

We are all in this together. It's not a good time to advocate that we start fighting with one another.

Absolute rubbish. Partnership isn't actually partnership at all, for the following reasons:

(1) It represents a minority of workers in Ireland. It also represents the highest paid workers in Ireland, typically public servants and semi state employees. The majority of new jobs created in this country in the boom have been created by employers who are hostile to unions, and on this basis, these employees have no representation at partnership level.

(2) On the employers side, it represents big businesses with massive clout that can veto change.

(3) It doesn't deal with a glaring disparity between public/semi state and private workers.

I'm all for partnership, just not the particularly two-faced flavour of it that we have in this country.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We are all in this together. It's not a good time to advocate that we start fighting with one another.

Also, we are not all in this together as you suggest. Some of us are not in it at all, they are completely protected from what is happening and where they are protected, they are typically in well paid public sector jobs or semi states with strong unions and protected industries, like Dublin Bus, ESB, Irish Rail, etc, etc.

This partnership process as it is currently constituted is a monster growling at us. The only thing that has appeased it over recent years has been throwing more money at it.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

Also, we are not all in this together as you suggest...

Ranting like that solves nothing; it doesn't even seem to make you feel any better.