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Is Cowen paralysed as Taoiseach?
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P. Breathnach wrote: »Ranting like that solves nothing; it doesn't even seem to make you feel any better.
I'm not ranting, partnership got us into this mess and it won't be getting us out of it! There is no more blank chequebook...
What have you got to say about the hundreds of thousands of people out there who are not represented by this "partnership" model??? What will you say to folks in Dell who are not represented by "partnership"???0 -
I'm not ranting, partnership got us into this mess and it won't be getting us out of it! There is no more blank chequebook...
What have you got to say about the hundreds of thousands of people out there who are not represented by this "partnership" model??? What will you say to folks in Dell who are not represented by "partnership"???
Partnership did not get us into this mess. The property bubble was not a partnership project; it was wild west capitalism.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »Partnership did not get us into this mess. The property bubble was not a partnership project; it was wild west capitalism.
The property bubble is only part of the problem here. We have paid an extremely high price for industrial peace over the last few years, whenever a problem appeared on the horizon, we threw money at it and it went away.
Now we have a bloated & protected civil service, we have folks doing low skill industrial jobs in semi state businesses earning what could only be called stupid money. ESB average wage: 61,000 Euro per annum.
Partnership makes sense when it encompasses all people who are exposed to the economy. As it stands, the people who are under the partnership umbrella, are the people who will be least affected by the current economic situation. How on earth on this basis can you have any faith whatsoever in partnership???
If Biffo wants to avoid riots in Ireland in 2009, he should make sure the people who will be carrying the can for all of this, are represented at the partnership talks that he is so convinced can get us out of this...0 -
Why are you so focused on attacking partnership? It worked fairly well.
The things that went wrong were not the direct result of partnership. They were the doings of the get-rich-quick brigade who tried to take a free ride on the back of an economy that was doing well -- and it was doing well. Then we had the property bubble, and the "country is awash with money" set of expectations, and our politicians taking the soft option of throwing money at every problem as if it was the best way to fix anything.0 -
ok so p breathanch is bertie and donegal fella is charlie mccreevy lol0
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P. Breathnach wrote: »Why are you so focused on attacking partnership? It worked fairly well.
The things that went wrong were not the direct result of partnership. They were the doings of the get-rich-quick brigade who tried to take a free ride on the back of an economy that was doing well -- and it was doing well. Then we had the property bubble, and the "country is awash with money" set of expectations, and our politicians taking the soft option of throwing money at every problem as if it was the best way to fix anything.
You can't have a process of recovery that excludes a large majority of the working nation, and that is what this clown is suggesting. You appear unable to debate the issue here, lets have partnership, but not the current construction of partnership. Let's get Dell workers in there and see what contribution they can make, and let's get the HP, Microsoft, Intel, etc, workers into this partnership process and see what we can come up with.
As long as partnership mainly compromises of overpaid vested interest groups that the folks who are held outside of partnership are actually paying for, then expect to see people like me calling it for what it actually is, a f*cking pathethic joke!0 -
Ireland is an expensive place now to do business. Daragh 29 is absolutely right, many people are on silly wages and the expectation of workers is too high. Prices and the cost of living here has rocketed and workers expect big wages. Unfortunately the likes of Dell need a low cost base for a better profit. Our economy really thrived on construction and all the businesses allied to that, such as suppliers of materials, kitchens, windows, joiners etc but that was it. What else was there really, but the IT sector which now appears to be falling away a bit? I think that the so called partnership should be reassessed in view of the economic expectations.0
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You can't have a process of recovery that excludes a large majority of the working nation, and that is what this clown is suggesting. You appear unable to debate the issue here, lets have partnership, but not the current construction of partnership. Let's get Dell workers in there and see what contribution they can make, and let's get the HP, Microsoft, Intel, etc, workers into this partnership process and see what we can come up with.
As long as partnership mainly compromises of overpaid vested interest groups that the folks who are held outside of partnership are actually paying for, then expect to see people like me calling it for what it actually is, a f*cking pathethic joke!
You're changing your ground. Only a few posts ago you said "partnership got us into this mess" and now that's gone from your argument.
And I never said (nor do I believe) that the current partnership model is the cure to all our problems. I do believe that a collaborative approach is necessary, and it is right to try to bring everybody on board.0 -
Only for the small minority of the population who are known as 'the social partners'. Partnership is and was an afront to democracy which should cease immediately! It does not and did not serve the best interests of the majority of the people. It only served as a convenient way to 'not rock the boat' during the good times. The social partners need to be told now that partnership is dead and all jobs in the public service (which we still need pf course!) are up for debate-just like in the private sector. The ESRI says on average a public sector worker receices 20% more pay than in the private sector for the equivalent job. Any public sector employee on 20% more than his/her private sector counterparts should immediately be offered a pay cut or statutory redundancy.P. Breathnach wrote: »Why are you so focused on attacking partnership? It worked fairly well.
The government in the early 90's should not have embarked on the partnership route. They should have faced down the public sector (strike at the drop of a hat mentality) unions. In a way I'm glad that finally the spotlight will be shone brightly upon this partnership racket and the ORDINARY WORKER (yeah, like those in Dell etc. who actually made the money for this country) will see how they are being excluded from the democratic process.0 -
This we need to clean out. These guys have us over a barrel with the threat of power cuts etc. Train the army now to run the power stations and bring in competition.Now we have a bloated & protected civil service, we have folks doing low skill industrial jobs in semi state businesses earning what could only be called stupid money. ESB average wage: 61,000 Euro per annum. .0 -
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P. Breathnach wrote: »You're changing your ground. Only a few posts ago you said "partnership got us into this mess" and now that's gone from your argument.
And I never said (nor do I believe) that the current partnership model is the cure to all our problems. I do believe that a collaborative approach is necessary, and it is right to try to bring everybody on board.
Yes, the current flavour of partnership that we have, is one of the causes of this mess. The people who are at the partnership table and those that are represented by them, are the people with the least worries in this economic calamity. The people who will be most affected by this, are not represented at all, because the vested interests at the partnership table like IBEC and AMCHAM (American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland), have decided that their staff will have no representation whatsoever within the partnership structure.
For the avoidance of any doubt on this particular issue, please see the following statement issued by Joanne Richardson, Cheif Executive of the American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland...
http://www.amcham.ie/download/important_message_from_chief_executive.pdf
And I quote from the above document:
The ICTU met on the 17th April and voted overwhelmingly to enter new national talks on pay and workplace issues. The
unions have set out their priorities for any forthcoming Agreement which include movement on trade union recognition,
treatment of temporary Agency Workers as well as the promised Employment Rights Compliance Bill.
The American Chamber of Commerce have clearly spelled out that any form of statutory Trade Union Recognition would not
be acceptable as part of any new Agreement.0 -
...And I quote from the above document:
The ICTU met on the 17th April and voted overwhelmingly to enter new national talks on pay and workplace issues. The
unions have set out their priorities for any forthcoming Agreement which include movement on trade union recognition,
treatment of temporary Agency Workers as well as the promised Employment Rights Compliance Bill.
The American Chamber of Commerce have clearly spelled out that any form of statutory Trade Union Recognition would not
be acceptable as part of any new Agreement.
No surprise there: one interest group squaring up to another interest group. That proves nothing.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »No surprise there: one interest group squaring up to another interest group. That proves nothing.
Of course not that you'll ever have such concerns to worry about, standing in what appears to be a public sector ivory tower.
You obviously have no issue with vested interests being pandered to and you appear to be more interested in being a serial apologist for this bamboozled government. It's funny how every thread you post in here seems to be an inexplicible defense of this useless collection of turds that we have running the country, and your the only person on here defending them. Why exactly are you defending this governent, when even the penguins down in the zoo know what complete and utter wasters they are, might I ask???0 -
Of course not that you'll ever have such concerns to worry about, standing in what appears to be a public sector ivory tower.
You obviously have no issue with vested interests being pandered to and you appear to be more interested in being a serial apologist for this bamboozled government. It's funny how every thread you post in here seems to be an inexplicible defense of this useless collection of turds that we have running the country, and your the only person on here defending them. Why exactly are you defending this governent, when even the penguins down in the zoo know what complete and utter wasters they are, might I ask???
It's taken the recession to see how bad this Government really is. Not one initiative in place but just sit tight and let other countries sort it out, as its beyond our control. Biffo said yesterday that living standards will decline but if we make the right decisions we will be back where we were. ?? Now that is a conundrum if ever I heard one. Which means on the periphery of the abyss I guess, with dependence on construction and negligent banks ? Has he learned nothing, it was all built on money we did not really have but fooled ourselves into thinking we were rich. The only one thing I have heard is Eamonn Ryan saying the management of the banks and their regulation needs to be changed without delay.0 -
Yes, the current flavour of partnership that we have, is one of the causes of this mess. The people who are at the partnership table and those that are represented by them, are the people with the least worries in this economic calamity. The people who will be most affected by this, are not represented at all, because the vested interests at the partnership table like IBEC and AMCHAM (American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland), have decided that their staff will have no representation whatsoever within the partnership structure.
You're correct in pointing out that the non-union workers in the private sector are the only people not represented at the partnership talks but I don't think that mass unionisation of the private sector is the correct response to that problem. That would be a cure worse than the disease.
Unions should exist to protect employees against abuse by their employers. Unfortunately, in Ireland at least, they've taken that mandate and expanded it to include using the weight of their numbers to bully their way into interfering with the organisation they're working within. Sometimes laying off chunks of a workforce, reducing the hours or reducing benefits are necessary measures to ensure the survival of the organisation. While the cooperation and input from the employees is a necessary part of the process, ultimately the decision rests with the owners and/or management. The interference of unions in those decisions is unacceptable and a major problem in the unionised organisations in Ireland.
As a former employer, I'm of the belief that the day someone who's working for me wants to be a member of a union is the day that I've failed as an employer. Currently as an employee, the day I think I need a union is the day that I need to start applying for other jobs and/or retrain myself.0 -
Of course not that you'll ever have such concerns to worry about, standing in what appears to be a public sector ivory tower.
You obviously have no issue with vested interests being pandered to and you appear to be more interested in being a serial apologist for this bamboozled government. It's funny how every thread you post in here seems to be an inexplicible defense of this useless collection of turds that we have running the country, and your the only person on here defending them. Why exactly are you defending this governent, when even the penguins down in the zoo know what complete and utter wasters they are, might I ask???
All I have done is point out that blaming partnership for all our problems is missing the target.
I have not defended the government.
You are coming close to making personal attacks on me, and I suggest that you back off. That is not the right way to discuss issues of general concern.0 -
It's taken the recession to see how bad this Government really is. Not one initiative in place but just sit tight and let other countries sort it out, as its beyond our control. Biffo said yesterday that living standards will decline but if we make the right decisions we will be back where we were. ?? Now that is a conundrum if ever I heard one. Which means on the periphery of the abyss I guess, with dependence on construction and negligent banks ? Has he learned nothing, it was all built on money we did not really have but fooled ourselves into thinking we were rich. The only one thing I have heard is Eamonn Ryan saying the management of the banks and their regulation needs to be changed without delay.
I personally think there is something coming down the wire here with Eamon Ryan making that statement. First thing I wondered was, why on earth was Eamon Ryan, Minister for the Environment, coming out with a statement like that??? He's the Minister for the Environment??? This kind of a statement I'd expect to be coming from Brian Lenihan and you have to ask why heads rolling at the very top of the banking industry, wasn't a condition of receiving the bail out funds handed over to the bank last week. I have a gut feeling that the Green's have drawn a line in the sand now on this particular issue and are putting it up to FF. If Brian Lenihan wanted a cull at the top and had the stomach for it, which he clearly doesn't, then the time for it was last week before the bail out payments were agreed in principal.
I personally think Lenihan doesn't want heads to roll, that he hasn't the stomach for it, but the Green's do, and it's either the heads roll in January or the Green's are outa there. I honestly cannot see any other reason why Eamon Ryan is the man who is making this comment... This could well be the issue that the government will fall on...0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »All I have done is point out that blaming partnership for all our problems is missing the target.
I have not defended the government.
You are coming close to making personal attacks on me, and I suggest that you back off. That is not the right way to discuss issues of general concern.
If you think that leaving this utterly useless collection of insufferable f*ckmeisters in charge of the country, is going to resolve the problem, then just say so!
As for partnership, how anyone can say that this is a forum for resolving issues, when the people who are largely affected by the unfolding economic doom, are not even in the building, never mind at the table, is just beyond me...0 -
If you think that leaving this utterly useless collection of insufferable f*ckmeisters in charge of the country, is going to resolve the problem, then just say so!
I never said that I thought that the government should be left in charge; I don't think I wrote anything that makes it reasonable for you to suggest that I did so. What I have consistently done is point out that the present problems were not created by partnership, and to focus on partnership is to ignore greater problems.As for partnership, how anyone can say that this is a forum for resolving issues, when the people who are largely affected by the unfolding economic doom, are not even in the building, never mind at the table, is just beyond me...
I can see that it is beyond you. But good government is not simple: the process has many elements.0 -
No, one can focus on partnership and also the other problems.P. Breathnach wrote: »I never said that I thought that the government should be left in charge; I don't think I wrote anything that makes it reasonable for you to suggest that I did so. What I have consistently done is point out that the present problems were not created by partnership, and to focus on partnership is to ignore greater problems.
Partnership is not engaged in by the british government. Why do we engage in it?P. Breathnach wrote: »I can see that it is beyond you. But good government is not simple: the process has many elements.
If 'social partnership' which excludes the majority of taxpayers (the ones who foot the bill for it all) is not abolished it will bring the govt. down someday. The ordinary folks who are now expected to tighten their belts will not tolerate a partnership which excludes them any more.
The only partnership there should be is directly between govt and the people who elect them, not a subset of those people who happen to be members of interest groups.
Even a labour senator had this to say recently;
"Labour's Senator Alex White reflected that mood in the Seanad before Christmas when he queried why the Government had presented its economic renewal plan to the social partners before either house of the Oireachtas was informed of its contents.
"One would pinch oneself on what passes for democratic debate and scrutiny in this country because the Government goes to the social partners in the first instance and not the Houses of Parliament," he said."0 -
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No, one can focus on partnership and also the other problems.
Partnership is not engaged in by the british government. Why do we engage in it?
If 'social partnership' which excludes the majority of taxpayers (the ones who foot the bill for it all) is not abolished it will bring the govt. down someday. The ordinary folks who are now expected to tighten their belts will not tolerate a partnership which excludes them any more.
The only partnership there should be is directly between govt and the people who elect them, not a subset of those people who happen to be members of interest groups.
Even a labour senator had this to say recently;
"Labour's Senator Alex White reflected that mood in the Seanad before Christmas when he queried why the Government had presented its economic renewal plan to the social partners before either house of the Oireachtas was informed of its contents.
"One would pinch oneself on what passes for democratic debate and scrutiny in this country because the Government goes to the social partners in the first instance and not the Houses of Parliament," he said."
There is an excellent article in yesterday's Irish Times on this whole subject of partnership...
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1227/1229728559356.html
It's time to pull down the shutters on this forum for arselicking and back clapping. I would give it some credit if it was actually partnership as in what the word partnership is understood to mean, but it isn't!
It is a room full of vested interests, monopolies, and "cloaked from reality" bearded loo laa's who are there to push their own self serving agenda. Paid for by private sector employees who are not even represented at the very forum that they are paying for, it would make you sick to be honest.0 -
This thread started as a general discussion. It has become focused on partnership by people who seem to believe that is what our problems have stemmed from, and who seem to have lost all interest in the wider questions that have had more to do with the difficulties we are now in.
I suspect they may be bankers trying to shift the blame.
I have more enjoyable ways of wasting my time than engaging with such intemperatre posts.
We might meet again in another thread, but I am dome with this one.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »This thread started as a general discussion. It has become focused on partnership by people who seem to believe that is what our problems have stemmed from, and who seem to have lost all interest in the wider questions that have had more to do with the difficulties we are now in.
I suspect they may be bankers trying to shift the blame.
I have more enjoyable ways of wasting my time than engaging with such intemperatre posts.
We might meet again in another thread, but I am dome with this one.
I haven't seen you coming out with anything constructive on this thread, just saying how everyone else doesn't have a handle on the problem. There is a determined hostility against this government and against this Taoiseach who is simply in the wrong job. You tell what you think needs to be done to get us out of this mess. So far, you have the same opinion as Cowen, that there is nothing that we can do because we have no influence over these events. I don't accept that and neither to most people...0 -
You can't have a process of recovery that excludes a large majority of the working nation, and that is what this clown is suggesting. You appear unable to debate the issue here, lets have partnership, but not the current construction of partnership. Let's get Dell workers in there and see what contribution they can make, and let's get the HP, Microsoft, Intel, etc, workers into this partnership process and see what we can come up with.
As long as partnership mainly compromises of overpaid vested interest groups that the folks who are held outside of partnership are actually paying for, then expect to see people like me calling it for what it actually is, a f*cking pathethic joke!
Darragh29 you appear to think that for some reason all workers should be included in partnership talks. How do you propose that all the private sector workers that are not part of a union be represented ?
From recollection of previous posts you, or someone else, proposed that all workers should be in a union.
That is the greatest f***up we could make at the the present time.
Unions are not the answer, they are part of the problem.
Yeah lets drive all foreign multinationals out, lets drive all technology companies out :rolleyes:
As for partnership... Those workers, primarily public sector and ex public sector, represented in partnership talks need to realise that times are tough and that like the private sector workers they have wantred to emulate for a number of years they will have to knuckle down and bear some of the burden.
They wanted to share in the good times, primarily created by private sector workers and private sector industry, and now they can share in the bad times even though it was not of their making.
Holding their hands up saying that it is the fault of greedy people in the private sector does nobody any good.
Let them not forget the fact that they have so many managers in their midst, that they have increased salaries to match private sector workers is down to that "awful dispicable" private sector in the first place.
It is not the fault of public sector that the property bubble burst, that the banks were neglicent through their own greed, that the retail sector grew so much or that the construciton industry was allowed to become such a large part of our economy.
But it is the fault of the public sector that has allowed utility prices became so high, that the public sector employment numbers have become so bloated, that the public sector budgets grew out of control, that public sector budgets were wasted and that the public sector wage bill has become so high.
Whose fault is all of that?
It is the public sector unions, the public sector management or lack of and the governments since 1997 who pandered to the public sector interest groups.
It is time people in public sector came to realise we (i.e. the Irish taxpayers) just cannot afford to continue to pay for such a large wasteful public sector.I am not allowed discuss …
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Darragh29 you appear to think that for some reason all workers should be included in partnership talks. How do you propose that all the private sector workers that are not part of a union be represented ?
From recollection of previous posts you, or someone else, proposed that all workers should be in a union.
That is the greatest f***up we could make at the the present time.
Unions are not the answer, they are part of the problem.
Yeah lets drive all foreign multinationals out, lets drive all technology companies out :rolleyes:
What is partnership doing now for Dell workers??? There is a solution to your question regarding how to represent non unionised private sector workers at partnership level, currently being proposed at EU level, which provides a statutory basis for EU Works Councils within the workplace...
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/cha/c10805.htm
And guess who is opposing and frustrating every effort to bring about EU Works Councils in Ireland???
You guessed it, the same people who are sitting at a partnership table in Dublin Castle saying that they will not allow their own employees to enjoy the same representation and access to the partnership forum that they enjoy!?!?! It doesn't have to be on the basis of union membership, it could be on the basis of an EU style Works Councils representing workers.
We can't have a situation in this country any longer where we have the US Multinational "tail", wagging the Irish economic "dog". I've argued before thath many of these US MNC jobs are not high skill secure jobs, contrary to what we have been told, but are in fact low skill, easily replacable jobs, as we are now seeing in the case of Dell.
Anyway, back on topic, Cowen is continuing to pander to these people in the partnership system and it's time someone sat the fat c*nt down and told him that it's time for less talking rubbish with vested interests and more decisive action. Nobody elected the social partners.0
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