Reason theres so few vegetarians

SeekUp

tman wrote: »

The only thing stopping me is the pure convenience of meat...

I think this is dead on.

Just as a bit of background, I stopped eating beef and pork about nine years ago, and started buying free range chicken and sustainably caught/raised seafood about six years ago (my issue is purely with the treatment of animals, not that eating meat itself is wrong -- although I still can't bring myself to eat beef or pork!).

I think it would be so much easier - and cheaper - to just go to the market and pick up some meat. Any meat. Who cares from where. I'd love to be able to go to the store and buy some toothpaste that was tested on animals rather than paying more for a kind that doesn't and having to search for a place that sells it. I'd love to pop into McDonald's for a fish sandwich but alas . . . I read Fast Food Nation! And on and on and on.

It just takes a bit more effort, and I think most people - even when faced with the facts about factory farms, etc. - will just make the easier choice. And did I mention the difference in price?

*shrug*

Inglorious

Joe Public wrote: »

Do "vegetarians" who have concern for cruelty to animals also decline from purchasing products containing leather?

Most do.
It'd be somewhat hypocritical if they didn't.

Sangre

If everyone suddenly became vegetarians our global economy would be even more ****ed.

Me? I just love the taste and benefits of animal products. Red meat, white meat, fish, fish oils, eggs, milk, leather, wool etc., My diet and palate would be a lot more boring without them. The abstract concept of animals dying and being harmed doesn't really outweigh my desire to use these products.

vibe666

SAVE_ME.222 wrote: »

Aren't ya great. The correct term is omnivore.

Yeah because all we eat are meat-dishes without the meat :rolleyes:

i've changed my mind. the reason there are so few vegetarians is because of their lack of a sense of humour. :rolleyes:

and NO, I AM a meatatarian thanks very much.

taconnol wrote: »

It isn't just about how the animal is killed but also the living conditions of the animal before it's killed.

You really think that watching a documentary on TV gives you complete knowledge and understanding of the specific conditions under which those Tesco chicken fillets were produced?

I don't eat intensively farmed meat, it just doesn't taste nearly as nice, but it has a lot more to do with flavour than welfare. wouldn't it be a little hypocritical to be all luvvy dovey with your food and THEN kill and eviscerate it?

taconnol wrote: »

As it stands, consumers aren't required to ask these questions and so they don't. Until such time as consumer are forced to be fully aware of where their meat and fish comes from and the true costs (social, environmental etc) are internalised in the price, the status quo will continue. Meat is far too cheap and those who don't eat meat essentially subsidise meat eaters.

there are just as many subsidies for crop farmers and since I don't eat much in the way of veg, I'm subsidising you, but you don't hear me moaning about that. that's the whole point of society, everyone subsidising everyone else in the areas they are deficient in so that the society as a whole survives.

Gauge wrote: »

What are you talking about? Plenty of people eat potato raw. In China it's quite common, and there are a fair few salad recipes that have raw potato as an ingredient.

plenty of people eat raw meat too. steak tartar is a good and very tasty example, but I've eaten raw bacon and beef plenty of times as well as heaps of sushi and it's never caused me any problems.

Sangre wrote: »

If everyone suddenly became vegetarians our global economy would be even more ****ed.

royally. aside from anything, where would we put all those spare cows, pigs, sheep and chickens? left to roam free they'd take over the world and enslave us.

Sangre wrote: »

Me? I just love the taste and benefits of animal products. Red meat, white meat, fish, fish oils, eggs, milk, leather, wool etc., My diet and palate would be a lot more boring without them.

dude, you're not supposed to eat leather. or wool for that matter.

Sangre wrote: »

The abstract concept of animals dying and being harmed doesn't really outweigh my desire to use these products.

there you go, nail > head situation right there. it's a simple equation of how tasty my food is versus how much i care about it's suffering. whilst it's tastiness outweighs how i (and the rest of us meatatarians) feel about it's suffering, it's still going to get eaten, simple as that.

rockbeer

Joe Public wrote: »

Do "vegetarians" who have concern for cruelty to animals also decline from purchasing products containing leather?

Your point being what, exactly? That if you can't be perfect you may as well do nothing?

By that logic anyone who gives to charity, in order not to be labelled a hypocrite, should sell off all their possessions, give the proceeds to the poor and then kill themselves before they spend any more money.

SAVE_ME.222

The abstract concept of animals dying and being harmed doesn't really outweigh my desire to use these products.

Well it does for vegetarians/vegans. Just because you don't know the details behind something, doesn't mean it's not occuring and that you are not directly contributing towards it. The very fact that the concept is 'abstract' to you means the meat producers marketing/advertising/truth-hiding/etc has worked on you.

Climate Expert

SAVE_ME.222 wrote: »

I was chatting to my friend yesterday about this (both vegetarians) and we came to the conclusion that we believe the MAIN reason why the vast majority of people are meat-eaters is because they don't think, nor do they have to think (because of factory farming/marketing/etc of meat). I'm only vegetarian 3 years now and this was definitely the reason why I ate meat for so long.

Before that I was wandering into KFC, enjoying a bucket of chicken/etc and the thought never even entered my mind how this chicken died, if it was cruelly treated, etc. Same idea regarding health issues, (this might be a controversial opinion, but statistically vegetarians don't get certain types of cancer and other illnesses as much).

Then one day I started to question things, and after finding out as much info as possible at the time I made the decision and have never looked back.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Edit - I have full respect for the people who know exactly how animals are treated, how they die, the risks involved in eating meat, etc and still make the conscious decision to eat meat. It's the ones who don't think I'm talking about here.

The real reaons

1. Vegetables lack nutritional value so are bodies have evolved to like the taste of calorie dense meats instead.

Thats why vegetables taste disgusting and so few people eat them exclusively. Vegetarians are unnatural and have issues.

zeris

Climate Expert wrote: »

The real reaons
1. Vegetables lack nutritional value so are bodies have evolved to like the taste of calorie dense meats instead.

However, in our agrarian society this point is moot.

Tomk1

I use to be vegi 17yrs, then more fish/chicken & some meat. I suffered from IBS for about 7 years, the past year has been good. I started reading a book "Eat 4 your type" which says that different foods are better for different blood types. As an O-type turns out to be the hunter, so beef is best, but pork/ham not, fish ok. Now I know all the "You should eat this" blah blah, but biology is a science, the fuel for our body can be like petrol or diesel. I know that some foods I was told was good, but my body reacted sluggish or almost more effort to breakdown that not eating was much better.

It turns out that for O-type dairy n’ wheat products causes inflammation of the intestines, also ulcers as the O-type stomach acid is more efficient in breaking down red meat.

Potato is only a new food in Ireland 100-200 years compared to 10,000 years, but for some blood types high carb is best. Put it simple eat high energy food in small amounts or a trough of pulp, say a steak or 1,000 pears depending on your engine. How can generations of a blood type be expected to adjust to a complete alien diet.

Just have a look at the book forget politics, ideals are great but not at the determent to health, fine some blood types are better adjusted to wheat and grain, others are not.

You are what you eat, Eat for what you are. "Rhino steak.....hmmmm"

Climate Expert

zeris wrote: »

However, in our agrarian society this point is moot.

So why don't we just do away with sex then, now that we can just use artificial insemination. Because are nature tells us its good.

Tar.Aldarion

Climate Expert wrote: »

The real reaons

1. Vegetables lack nutritional value so are bodies have evolved to like the taste of calorie dense meats instead.

Thats why vegetables taste disgusting and so few people eat them exclusively. Vegetarians are unnatural and have issues.

Another ban for you.

zeris

zeris wrote: »

However, in our agrarian society this point is moot.

Climate Expert wrote: »

So why don't we just do away with sex then, now that we can just use artificial insemination. Because are nature tells us its good.

One presumes you eat meat for reasons other than its density of calories relative to vegetables. I am saying that eating meat for this reason is moot. You are no longer a hunter-gatherer.

I wonder what Freud would say about you equating eating meat to sex?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Can we make a "Meat eaters" forum please? Though I suppose every forum is a meat eaters forum really. A "Meat fanatics/omnivores who take vegetarianism as a personal attack forum perhaps"?
Anyways, the reason most people don't follow a veggie diet
1.They haven't thought about it but would care if they did
2.They have thought about it, but don't care. Such people do exist (:eek:)

Macha

vibe666 wrote: »

I don't eat intensively farmed meat, it just doesn't taste nearly as nice, but it has a lot more to do with flavour than welfare. wouldn't it be a little hypocritical to be all luvvy dovey with your food and THEN kill and eviscerate it?

Well at least you're being honest about your egotistic reasons for not buying intensively farmed meat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to treat animals properly and with respect before killing them and eating them (sorry I know ye veggies will disagree with me on this and that's absolutely fine)

vibe666 wrote: »

there are just as many subsidies for crop farmers and since I don't eat much in the way of veg, I'm subsidising you, but you don't hear me moaning about that. that's the whole point of society, everyone subsidising everyone else in the areas they are deficient in so that the society as a whole survives.

Do you have stats to show how much subsidies go to meat vs crops? I have seen those stats and meat is hugely subsidised. The redistribution of wealth through taxation is totally different to the subsidies given to farmers. We are causing huge health and environmental problems through the over supply of cheap meat and you think that this is beneficial to society??

Joe Public

rockbeer wrote: »

Your point being what, exactly? That if you can't be perfect you may as well do nothing?

By that logic anyone who gives to charity, in order not to be labelled a hypocrite, should sell off all their possessions, give the proceeds to the poor and then kill themselves before they spend any more money.

Not a balanced analogy, it's a bit off the wall to say the least.

I'm just curious and trying to understand if there is a standard "vegetarian" or how many versions there are. Some don't eat meat and some don't eat meat or dairy products and say it is for health reasons. Some are concerned for the welfare of animals and some say there are too many animals on earth and are speeding up its destruction.
There's probably other issues and various combinations depending on the type of "vegetarian". If I'm in conversation with a vegetarian is it ok to say "what type of vegetarian are you?"

Slaphead07

Joe Public wrote: »

If I'm in conversation with a vegetarian is it ok to say "what type of vegetarian are you?"

As long as it's out of a genuine interest and not just to start an argument.
Why are you surprised there's different types of vegetarians? Are there not many different types of meat-eaters?

vibe666

taconnol wrote: »

Well at least you're being honest about your egotistic reasons for not buying intensively farmed meat.

lol, where did you pull that from? nothing to do with ego, i just like my food to taste as good as possible.

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have stats to show how much subsidies go to meat vs crops? I have seen those stats and meat is hugely subsidised.

care to share them with the class then so we can all see?

taconnol wrote: »

The redistribution of wealth through taxation is totally different to the subsidies given to farmers. We are causing huge health and environmental problems through the over supply of cheap meat and you think that this is beneficial to society??

and how is it different than the cheap crappy vegetables and crops we get via the very same avenues?

it's all about supply and demand. certain amounts of food has to be grown (animal and vegetable) and it can't be achieved if it's all grown organically with hippies dancing round it singing.

intensive farming is very necessary for a lot of poeple to survive, it's pretty simple economics.

i'm lucky to be earning enough that i can afford to eat well, but as shown on several of these battery v's organic documentaries recently, plenty of people can only survive because of cheap food.

Sangre

SAVE_ME.222 wrote: »

Well it does for vegetarians/vegans. Just because you don't know the details behind something, doesn't mean it's not occuring and that you are not directly contributing towards it. The very fact that the concept is 'abstract' to you means the meat producers marketing/advertising/truth-hiding/etc has worked on you.

Of course it does, that's why they are vegetarians. I know how animals are reared and killed, however I don't see it every day so its never in the front of my mind. When I'm about to eat some delicious steak, eggs or fish the last thing in my mind is the animals suffering. Suffering in general is the last thing on my mind, I don't want to turn myself into a maniac depressive.

Being a veggie/vegan also makes it much more awkward to get protein in for weight lifting.

Oh and the meat industry truth hiding conspiracy has been working well. Guess they've been practising since the dawn of civilisation.

vibe666

i'm perfectly aware of how meat is produced and how animals used for food are killed, in fact I'd have no problem doing it myself and as I've already said, I've killed rabbits and chickens and eaten them afterwards and have no problem with that either.

it's just the natural order of things, same as any other animal killing another animal for food, why would it bother me?

something like fox hunting would bother me, or dog/cock fighting where animals are killed for nothing more than fun, but that's not what we're talking about.

rockbeer

Joe Public wrote: »

Not a balanced analogy, it's a bit off the wall to say the least.

Perhaps you could explain where you think it falls down rather than just offering this uninformative dismissal.

You might or might not be surprised by how often the accusation is leveled at vegetarians that they are hypocrites whose dietary choices are utterly invalidated by the death of a single insect during the food production cycle. Vegetarians are routinely expected to maintain standards of purity and consistency demanded of almost no one else. This kind of argument gets old pretty quickly.

Joe Public wrote: »

I'm just curious and trying to understand if there is a standard "vegetarian" or how many versions there are. Some don't eat meat and some don't eat meat or dairy products and say it is for health reasons. Some are concerned for the welfare of animals and some say there are too many animals on earth and are speeding up its destruction.
There's probably other issues and various combinations depending on the type of "vegetarian". If I'm in conversation with a vegetarian is it ok to say "what type of vegetarian are you?"

There are probably as many 'versions' of a vegetarian as there are vegetarians. It's one of those convenient but often uninformative labels - just one of the reasons why I dislike and prefer not to use it.

Joe Public

Slaphead07 wrote: »

As long as it's out of a genuine interest and not just to start an argument.
Why are you surprised there's different types of vegetarians? Are there not many different types of meat-eaters?

The difference is that I think differently, I wouldn't use the term "meat-eaters" as I consider vegetarian to be the selective area. Those who make the change are the ones who do the most thinking.

Joe Public

rockbeer wrote: »

Your point being what, exactly? That if you can't be perfect you may as well do nothing?

By that logic anyone who gives to charity, in order not to be labelled a hypocrite, should sell off all their possessions, give the proceeds to the poor and then kill themselves before they spend any more money.

Perhaps you could explain where you think it falls down rather than just offering this uninformative dismissal.

A person can give up eating meat and not purchase leather goods and work and live a normal life. Comparing this to someone who sells all their possessions and gives away the proceeds to the poor doesn't add up.

Macha

vibe666 wrote: »

lol, where did you pull that from? nothing to do with ego, i just like my food to taste as good as possible.

*sigh* I meant egoistic as opposed to altruistic or biospheric. Your reasons for not buying intensively farmed food are not altruistic (for the good of others) or biospheric (for the good of the environment) but egoistic (for your own good). Understand now?

vibe666 wrote: »

care to share them with the class then so we can all see?
and how is it different than the cheap crappy vegetables and crops we get via the very same avenues?

No, I don't have them in soft-copy. Ill have to root them (hwah) out.
Well there is one very large difference between intensively farmed carrots and intensively farmed chickens. Do you really need me to lay it out for you?

vibe666 wrote: »

it's all about supply and demand. certain amounts of food has to be grown (animal and vegetable) and it can't be achieved if it's all grown organically with hippies dancing round it singing.

No, see it isn't all about supply and demand. Surely you still don't have blind faith in the "invisible hand" of the market after the last 6 months??

vibe666 wrote: »

intensive farming is very necessary for a lot of poeple to survive, it's pretty simple economics.

Sorry but you don't know squat about the current industrialised intensive agricultural diet. There are quite a few reasons why the above statement is not true:
1. Monocrop farms are about is inefficient as you can get. They are vastly less efficient than polycrop farms, such as those that use permaculture methods. Reasons for this include the absence of methods such as stacking and reduced biodiversity (resulting in less transfer of pollen).
2. The current system is basically floating on a pool of oil. Oil is used for transportation, pesticides, fertilisers, etc. When the chief economist of the IEA (an organisation that previously scoffed at peakoil) states that oil will peak in 2020 and your entire agricultural system is addicted to oil, you know a change is needed.
3. Meat is an incredibly inefficient way of turning sunlight into food.Plant-based diets are far more efficient. If people ate less meat and more veg, less intensive farming is necessary.

vibe666 wrote: »

i'm lucky to be earning enough that i can afford to eat well, but as shown on several of these battery v's organic documentaries recently, plenty of people can only survive because of cheap food.

Absolute NONSENSE. It is these people's obsession with eating kilos and kilos of unnecessary MEAT and the fact that they also choose to spend it on crap like cigarettes.

rockbeer

Joe Public wrote: »

A person can give up eating meat and not purchase leather goods and work and live a normal life. Comparing this to someone who sells all their possessions and gives away the proceeds to the poor doesn't add up.

This is true but completely misses the point.

Sounds as though you are setting up arbitrary standards of sacrifice that you feel people should be prepared to make.

What the hell is a 'normal' life anyway? One that matches up to your criteria? You might be surprised to learn that what passes for normal life in D4 would be almost unrecognizable in most of the rest of the world. (Not suggesting you're from D4, just making the point that 'normal' is a relative concept.)

People do what they feel they can. Why do you have a problem with this?

vibe666

taconnol wrote: »

Absolute NONSENSE. It is these people's obsession with eating kilos and kilos of unnecessary MEAT and the fact that they also choose to spend it on crap like cigarettes.

sorry, don't smoke, unless you count oak smoking a nice juicy bit of meat on a bbq.

look, at the end of the day you can all bitch and moan about people eating meat all you want, but (to rob a quote from the late great charlton heston and many others before him) the day you stop ME eating meat is the day you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

i dare say the vast majority feel the same way, as shown with the whole pork meat dioxin fiasco, most people kept eating the pork they had and were rushing out for more the minute it was back on the shelves.

wouldn't surprise me if that whole thing was just some mad veggie plot to get people off meat anyway, all seems a bit suss. :rolleyes:

rockbeer

vibe666 wrote: »

look, at the end of the day you can all bitch and moan about people eating meat all you want, but (to rob a quote from the late great charlton heston and many others before him) the day you stop ME eating meat is the day you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

vibe, I don't think anyone is trying to stop you eating meat, just to point out that you're talking complete sh!te.

electrofilth

*YAWN*

you are all wasting your time posting here, nobody's going to convince anyone of anything, i've heard both arguments over and over again, both are more or less equally flawed on many levels....this "discussion" is so boring and jaded.

Tar.Aldarion

Hence I haven't commented. I don't want to argue with teenagers.

My only comment is that tman needs to find a good woman to cook for him so that he can become veggie.

Slaphead07

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I don't want to argue with teenagers.

I suspect age won't improve a narrow mind. There are many kinds of people I don't bother arguing with and (some) teenagers is just one small group.

Tar.Aldarion

I'd say that too but a few of my friends thought like vibe666(not 'accusing' you of being a teen) when I went to secondary with them and became vegetarian after.