Green Party Statement on Handgun Ban

Scalachi

Released today, suggest everyone gets emailing the Green Party.

18 December 2008
De Burca slams handgun 'apologists'
Senator backs moves towards a ban in the new year
With the escalation of gun crime in Ireland – there is no scope for legal possession of handguns, Senator Deirdre de Burca said today.
The Green Party Senator and Dublin European Parliament candidate said almost 1,300 guns were reported stolen over the past six years. These included 27 handguns.
"Clearly many of these weapons fell into the hands of gun criminals who subsequently used them to terrorise, maim and perhaps even kill in pursuit of their vile trade," she said.
Senator de Burca fully backed a move by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern to bring in an outright ban on handguns. She totally disagreed with those who argued that legally-held guns were not a threat.
The Senator added that from the early 1970s until 2004 handguns were effectively banned as part of efforts to curb the threat from paramilitaries. But due to a series of court rulings this was relaxed and the number of legally-held handguns increased significantly in recent years.
"I welcome the de facto ban on issuing new handgun licences. But the Minister for Justice is to be congratulated on his plan to ban all handguns in legislation due early next year," Senator de Burca said.
Senator de Burca said there are currently 1,800 legally-held handguns in the Republic. "If current rates of growth in gun licensing were sustained we could have ownership rates comparable with some American states. That would be totally unacceptable in a country which has kept a civilian unarmed police force through many crises," she concluded.
[ENDS]
Information:
Senator Deirdre De Burca:

Sparks

FFS. I've sat the woman down in my kitchen and shown her the sport, it's not like she doesn't know what we do.

Sparks

Sent by email:
deburcaoffice@yahoo.ie
deirdre.deburca@oireachtas.ie

Ms de Burca,
In 2007, you visited me in my home in Greystones seeking my vote, which you received. At the time, you asked if there was any issue which specifically concerned me. I said that there was, invited you into my home and sat with you in the kitchen for a while explaining how olympic target shooting was a minority sport in this country which was labouring under excessively onerous legislation. At the time, I was the secretary of the National Governing Body of the sport, the National Target Shooting Association, and you were quite specific in your agreement with our position on the matter.

To read your statement today on handguns after having made you welcome in my home and after having given you my vote is most galling. To say there is no legal reason to own handguns in Ireland when they make up one full third of the Olympic events is breathtakingly offensive. Even the Minister, in his media-driven quest to ban handguns, has made specific exceptions for Olympic handguns. Even the Gardai who have been saying they do not wish to licence handguns, have said they have no such problem with Olympic handguns.

But even leaving aside that point, the general idea is fundamentally flawed. Legally licenced handguns are simply not a problem in Ireland. The figures are described as being scary because there are now some 1736 licenced handguns in Ireland, but the fact is that before the Gardai implemented a policy of not issuing licences for them in 1972 (they have never, ever, been banned in Ireland), there were over 1500 licenced. When you examine the figures, you discover that once the bulk of those which were taken into storage in 1972 were released from storage, the number of licences granted per year was falling off. You must also remember that given our population rise, the current number licenced is 20% less than in 1972 on a per capita basis. You must also take into account the fact that while the licence says "handgun", it is not necessarily granted for a handgun - paintball markers, human dispatch tools, starting pistols for athletic events - all these and more are licenced by the Gardai as handguns because the PULSE system allows them to be licenced as nothing else.

There are many things to be outraged at with the current figures on licenced handguns, however. Allow me to list a few:

* The Minister has been asked on several occasions in the past year in the Dail to list how many licences have been granted for what kind of handgun (ie. how many air pistols, how many smallbore pistols, how many fullbore pistols, how many starter pistols, how many paintball markers, etc). He has failed to produce this information time and again - in effect saying that those who are issued licences for 9mm Glock pistols are a security threat to the nation, but he doesn't know how many such licences he has given out!
* The Minister has been asked twice this year (in June and in October) in the Dail how many handgun licences were given out over the past few years. The figures he gave out in June did not match those given out in October - at some point in those few months, the number of licences issued in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 supposedly changed by up to 50 licences.
* The Minister has been asked twice this year in the Dail how many licenced handguns were stolen. This figure also has changed depending on when it was asked for, and when he was asked yesterday, he said he didn't have the figures anymore.


There are other things to be outraged at here as well. For example, in 2007 it was recognised by the Minister's predecessor that the Department of Justice should be harnassing the large technical body of knowlege contained in the shooting community in Ireland and the Firearms Consultation Panel was formed, chaired by the Department of Justice's Firearms Section and comprising representatives from An Gardai Siochana, the Irish Sports Council, the various shooting and hunting governing bodies and their insurers, and a number of other stakeholders in the Firearms Act. They have been working since 2007 to assist the Department in preparing secondary legislation and guidelines to ensure the safe and efficient implementation and enforcement of the 2006 Criminal Justice Act's changes to the Firearms Act. However, despite this forum for addressing the Ministers concerns in a technically well-informed manner, he completely ignored it and issued policy statements to the press instead.

Further, the motivator for all of this were statements made by TD Deasy and TD Mitchell to the media. Both had their statements denounced by Enda Kenny and Deasy was instructed to go to a pistol range with Charles Flanagan in order to actually learn something about what he was talking about. Fine Gael further agreed to meet with the shooting governing bodies to discuss the matter. However the Minister reacted to these rogue and uninformed statements by announcing an unwarranted ban on the licencing of handguns.

I wish to point out at this stage, that this is not merely the first time in the history of the state that such a ban is being discussed, but the first time in the past four hundred years or so. It is simply not warranted. There is no evidence that links the gun crime problem to legally held firearms. None. The Minister was asked, repeatedly, in the Dail to state how many firearms were stolen from their legal owners and then used in crime. Each time he was asked, he replied that the Gardai do not bother to track such an occurance. It's simply too rare for them to bother with.

Last year, in one single operation, the Gardai seized some 200 fullbore pistols being illegally smuggled into Ireland. That year they went on to seize a total of nearly a thousand such firearms. That's more in one weekend than were licenced in the state at the time, and several times more than that over the course of that year. *That* is the source of the problem - illegally smuggled firearms contained in drug consignments. *Not* legally held firearms. A senior garda source last year told the Guardian that there were some 5,000 illegally held handguns in criminal hands in Ireland. If the Minister bans legally held handguns, he will not be taking 1800 handguns off the street, but air pistols and smallbore pistols used in olympic and similar target shooting, paintball markers, starting pistols for the community games and so on.

If you must decry something, would you please decry the slipshod practises that leave the Minister not knowing what he's licenced? Or the judge who today released the 16-year-old who shot Aidan O'Kane in the stomach in a premeditated attack, out on bail for two thousand euro?

What the Minister is doing here is group punishment of the innocent while failing to prosecute the guilty. It is an abdication of his duties to the public as the Minister for Justice, nothing less. For you to support him in it is shameful, and you have lost my vote in doing so.

Yours in Sport,

Red Renard

"If current rates of growth in gun licensing were sustained we could have ownership rates comparable with some American states.

No more like NI, who never impounded civilian firearms during the troubles.

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

Sent by email:
deburcaoffice@yahoo.ie
deirdre.deburca@oireachtas.ie

You must also take into account the fact that while the licence says "handgun", it is not necessarily granted for a handgun - paintball markers, human dispatch tools, starting pistols for athletic events - all these and more are licenced by the Gardai as handguns because the PULSE system allows them to be licenced as nothing else.

I suppose it's too late to fix that particular typo???

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Sent by email:
deburcaoffice@yahoo.ie
deirdre.deburca@oireachtas.ie

+1

Not a very popular woman in County Wicklow; has managed to piss of most of her erstwhile supporters and everyone else besides. Nice to meet and talk to, but a complete airhead who has changed her mind on countless issues on numerous occasions.

Great letter Sparks, but I doubt she'll read the whole thing

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

I suppose it's too late to fix that particular typo???

I take it, that letter was a cut and paste job from your last one Sparks?

Sparks

Nope, wholly original rrpc. I'm starting to hate that 'e' key on this keyboard

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Nope, wholly original rrpc. I'm starting to hate that 'e' key on this keyboard

Get an Asus EEEPC. There's loads of 'e's on it.

Seriously though, good job on the letter.

Sparks

I tried the Asus. My fingers are sufficiently large to hit the key I'm aiming for and the eight surrounding it all at once.
Nice machine, but I prefer my thinkpad r61

Cpt.Blackadder

Guys, I don't shoot but I think ye are getting tarred unfairly by politicians. Even I can see flaws in this political logic.

Scalachi wrote: »

She totally disagreed with those who argued that legally-held guns were not a threat.
The Senator added that from the early 1970s until 2004 handguns were effectively banned as part of efforts to curb the threat from paramilitaries.

SO there was NEVER a crime comitted with an illegally held pistol in those 32 years? Anyway didn't the Paramilitaries they just go and buy arms ILLEGALLY by the ton from the Libyans.

Scalachi wrote: »

Senator de Burca said there are currently 1,800 legally-held handguns in the Republic. "If current rates of growth in gun licensing were sustained we could have ownership rates comparable with some American states. That would be totally unacceptable in a country which has kept a civilian unarmed police force through many crises," she concluded.
[ENDS]
Information:
Senator Deirdre De Burca:

1800 sporting pistols each one liscensed individually by the Gardai versus the millions of conceal and carry pistols for personal defence in America is hardly a reasonible comparison.

Grizzly 45

She isnt Blonde by any chance is she????:D:rolleyes:
Just goes to show what airheads the Greens are .If it isnt a light bulb,polar bears with no icecap ,or toyota priuse's or bikes.They haven't a clue.Either that or they think it is a grand bandwagon to hop on!
Nope!Not Blonde !Had a look at the green party website.But they have slapped this rant on their front page of their website.

Red Renard

Frankly, my dear I don't give a damm.

Call us red necks 'apologists' (usually reserved for spokespersons of
terrorists organizations!) slurry away with insults all you like but remember come next election when a whirlwinds of change topples your windmill and Rhett Kenny is straddling the front bench, don't expect any pity.

BTW is John still peddling while the Merc follows at an uneconomical safe distance behind. Carbon trade that.;)

cavan shooter

Sparks thats a heartfelt response and excellent balanced writing, would you consider sending a copy of it to a newspaper.

Sparks

If any of them carry her press release I'll send it on to them (with an extra 'e' or two).

Red Renard

Sparks wrote: »

If any of them carry her press release I'll send it on to them (with an extra 'e' or two).

:eek::)

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

If any of them carry her press release I'll send it on to them (with an extra 'e' or two).

humanee

BornToKill

Last year, in one single operation, the Gardai seized some 200 fullbore pistols being illegally smuggled into Ireland. That year they went on to seize a total of nearly a thousand such firearms. That's more in one weekend than were licenced in the state at the time

Sparks, do you have a link for this please? I genuinely can't remember it and it seems like I should. I do remember the Guards seizing something like 28 pistols and the trail leading back to Holland and a bigger seizure there. Which they said was probably not destined for Ireland. Is that the incident you are referring to?

Also, does the Minister for Justice license guns? I thought that was a function of Garda Supers?

BryanL

Why would anyone vote for the greens? they stand for nothing.
their complete opposition to hunting means i would never consider voting for them
Bryan

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

Sparks, do you have a link for this please?

Here.

I genuinely can't remember it and it seems like I should. I do remember the Guards seizing something like 28 pistols and the trail leading back to Holland and a bigger seizure there.

It was laid out before the seizures - 27 here, then 14 in belfast then 168 in belgium.

Which they said was probably not destined for Ireland. Is that the incident you are referring to?

Yes, but the Gardai were saying at the time that it was destined for Ireland. You wouldn't be implying that a senior garda was fibbing, would you? :eek:

Also, does the Minister for Justice license guns?

No, that's an operational matter - but he is supposed to know how many are licenced and so on. I think I got tangled in a bit of metaphor there at one point.

BryanL wrote: »

Why would anyone vote for the greens?

Because they'd sent in a bunch of PQs for us before that and because (and this is irony) they were the only FF protest vote in the area that I could vote for without having to close my eyes first.

Our man in Havana

I think it was a good move to get away from Wicklow.

I remember when she was on the county council she upset enough people.

dimebag249

The leftist environMENTAL Greens are anti-gun? The party that wants to ban ALL hunting? I don't believe it!

ditpaintball

Great Job on the letter. As one poster, its getting harder and harder to see the logic in some of the politicians arguments, when you see the facts there.

dimebag249

It was a very good letter Sparks. I hate to say it, but in this case I won't be writing a letter, as the Green Party have never responded to me about firearms issues, bar saying 'yeah, whatever', when I contacted them about the licence fee increase.

I think they would have responded every time if I'd been complaining about gas-guzzlers or meat-eaters. I think they are an elitist party that don't give a hoot about anybody that doesn't agree with their anti-humanist ideology. I think the proportion of the shooting community that would vote Green would be tiny anyway, so I would be very surprised if the Senator, or the Party, changed their stance on this issue. I hope I'm being overly cynical here.

G17

dimebag249 wrote: »

I hate to say it, but in this case I won't be writing a letter, as the Green Party have never responded to me about firearms issues, bar saying 'yeah, whatever', when I contacted them about the licence fee increase.

If anyone thinks that a certain party won't listen, write 'em anyway, just to spite 'em, you'll have wasted several seconds of their lives that they'll never get back! Go on! Everybody write to your TDs and Senators! Do! It's having an effect, the questions are being asked!

Grizzly 45

Mmmh,wouldn't be anything to do with that the fact is they are supposedly in power here with FF as well.And maybe it is best to Baaahh from the same hymn sheet once in awhile???
Senators,well what exactly do that they do apart from cost the tax payer a load of money??Talk alot,and keep ,has beens,also rans,eccentrics,and ivory tower residents in a cushy number.So you really couldn't expect any of that lot to say anything realistic about the really real world the rest of us have to endure??

Sparks

Senators,well what exactly do that they do apart from cost the tax payer a load of money?

Well, occasionally they vote down the government and force them to allow sports bodies to register as charities under the Charities Act...

Grizzly 45

Somthing I suppose.:) Wonder how long that took with them tho.

fish slapped

Lads it's the green party ! are we really surprised?:eek: all you have to do is look at the chaos they're causeing over in the UK. These guys are anti everything that isn't fluffy and carbon free. The big problem is the constant feed of misinformation coming from Mr.Ahern's office. ( hand guns banned for 32 years), (27 handguns stolen in the past 6 years) , (glock's are carried and used by Satan)

Kramer

fish slapped wrote: »

.............27 handguns stolen in the past 6 years...........

Up to 31 now apparently......:rolleyes:

Any advance on 31? Anyone?
I'll take 35!? Do I hear 35 from anyone?
35 I'm bid from the Minister :D.

Tackleberry.

said i give it a go and send a email if they reply i'll post it but i'm holding my breath>>>