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The Cruiser

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    #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    This is the most naive thing I have ever read. I know you and I have gone at it in other threads with opposing views but I always thought you were reasonably analytical. You think every single military action by the three nations you have just mentioned in the twentieth century (let's stick to that cause your point is even harder to bear if we go back a bit further) was for freedom, peace and liberty? Really?

    As for CCOB, I have a rather ambivalent attitude to him. Many of his contributions to Irish society have been divisive. Mostly though I respect his work at the UN. He did much I disagree with but who has lived a life that long and done nothing that someone wouldn't disagree with?


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    #183
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Mikel wrote: »
    Aims are one thing, you can have any aim you want.
    It's how you go about it that is in question.
    Very much agreed. I don't want to be mistaken for a provo apologist here.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    He did much I disagree with but who has lived a life that long and done nothing that someone wouldn't disagree with?
    I disagree with that statement. Some of what he said/did/supported was quite unacceptable really - these weren't errors in judgement. These were sh1t-stirring, hatred-inciting, anger-fuelling stunts.


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    #184
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dudess wrote: »
    I disagree with that statement. Some of what he said/did/supported was quite unacceptable really - these weren't errors in judgement. These were sh1t-stirring, hatred-inciting, anger-fuelling stunts.

    My statement then still stands true. You disagree with some of the things he did. Others do not. I, for one, disagree with much that he did and said. There is no doubting he was sometimes vindictive and often-times sought trouble but he did much for this country too. Accepting the man as a whole should be our goal, whether that acceptance; upon balancing it within our minds, leads us to feel him someone to honour or someone to chastise is simply the next step in that acceptance.


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    #185
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #186
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #187
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I outlined in detail what I was drawing a parallel to. If you aren't going to read exactly what I post, then be as good as not to respond.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That would depend on the circumstances. Suffice to say that no form of Government should be presumed to automatically have the moral high ground. Its by their deeds they should be judged.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    And I despise his arrogant contrary gittery.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Because the man had a spasm whenever they were mentioned. He was as irrational as the worst bigot on the loyalist side.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Actually the parallel would be how the ordinary people of Palestine are suffering under the occupation. Or the Iraqis. Or West Papuans or Tibetans.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    And I'm sure that the next time theres a position open in moderation, you're free to apply along with everyone else.
    Camelot wrote:
    Unless of course you supported the Provo's & their aims....

    'Yes' and 'most of them'.
    Seanie32 wrote:
    CCOB and people like him made SF earn their position in a democratic society. They had to accept their seats in the Dail, accept democratic principles, accept their view was a Minority opinion and that the war was pointless, led to the Hume Adams talks etc.....

    ...which rather ignores the fact that CCOB would have excluded them to the end, kept them out of politics and was far too lacksadaisacal in addressing the greivances which led to the armed struggle in the first place. No point in screaming at the fire to go out, if you don't do something about it. Throwing things at it and more screaming does more harm than good.
    Donegalfella wrote:
    Soldiers of legitimiate democratic states such as Israel, the United States, or the United Kingdom have fought bravely throughout the twentieth century to bring freedom, peace, and liberty to the world
    ......

    Hello. Is this your first Christmas in our dimension?

    Donegalfella wrote:
    intellectual. Conor Cruise O'Brien at least had an attuned moral sense; he knew when wrongs were being perpetrated, and he almost always had a good idea why. He didn't shy away from the truth: He never became an apologist for Ghanian dictators or Soviet butchers or Irish nationalist maniacs......

    ...but did become an apologist for the brutalities of the Israeli state. Thus, a hypocrite.
    Donegalfella wrote:
    The role of the Israeli Defence Forces is to protect the Israeli state from terrorist groups such as the Palestine Liberation Organization.......

    Partly. It also suppresses the population of the OT, protects settlers, largely turns a blind eye to their violence, conducts torture and beatings as a matter of course and acts as an instrument of slow drip ethnic cleansing. We don't mind the "protect" part. The second bit isn't on.


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    #188
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Look, we'll just end up going round in circles so I'll leave it, but a couple of things:
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Grrr... I'm not questioning that. Why are you conveniently ignoring my constant mentionings of human rights abuses carried out by them though?
    I suppose you have little to say about PLO guerilla warfare against the state of Israel?
    Plenty to say. Fanatical terrorist bastards.
    If O'Brien became an "apologist" for people's right to live peacefully within their own countries, and not to have their sovereignty, their territory, and their safety repeatedly threatened by fanatical terrorist militia, then I say good for him.
    Yet never condemned the wrongs perpetrated by them in the name of their respective causes. Ever consider what it must have been like as a catholic in Northern Ireland in the 60s? As a Palestinian in the 80s?


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    #189
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Nodin wrote: »
    Seanie32 wrote:
    CCOB and people like him made SF earn their position in a democratic society. They had to accept their seats in the Dail, accept democratic principles, accept their view was a Minority opinion and that the war was pointless, led to the Hume Adams talks etc.....

    ...which rather ignores the fact that CCOB would have excluded them to the end, kept them out of politics and was far too lacksadaisacal in addressing the greivances which led to the armed struggle in the first place. No point in screaming at the fire to go out, if you don't do something about it. Throwing things at it and more screaming does more harm than good.

    Nope, never ignored that, just wasn't referring to that in my post.

    I was pointing out how his ideal on Unionist inclusion was ahead of its time and is now generally accepted, even by a party that would be one of his biggest critics.

    Eventually, SF got sick of starting the fires and the screaming and eventually talked.

    Reminds me a bit of, "We didn't start the fire!"

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #190
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Camelot wrote: »
    Unless of course you supported the Provo's & their aims ....
    Nodin wrote: »
    'Yes' and 'most of them'.

    Hmm, interesting :cool:


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    #191
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'm sorry, did my post imply that the Second World War was an act of terrorism? No. It simply underlined the fact that quite a few of the acts of those nations have been motivated by a whole range of self interests, none of which include liberty, freedom or peace; even if that's what they tell the world they are fighting for.

    I will take by the fact that, rather than attempting to argue my point intelligently you simply brought up WWII, you realise that my point actually has quite a lot of merit.

    Also, would you use the argument "They won WWII" to defend Stalinist Russia? The argument is clearly nonsense in both respects.


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    #192
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The Irish would have been part of the Herrenrasse and I fail to see the advantage of speaking english rather than German for Irish people I would have thought a donegalfella might have seen that!


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    #193
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Thread closed, since no-one seems interested in the topic anymore.


This discussion has been closed.
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