Need Help Solving Gas Fire Problem

Ta me anseo

Hi everyone,

I have a similar thread on the Home Appliance Forum but I'm just not getting the hits on the thread and no replies either! I hope it's OK to rehash it here....

I have recently had a simple Inset Gas Fire installed in a 4 year old house with a bog standard precast flue. There has never been any fire in the house before.

RGI came along to install it and over a frustrating period of two days decided that the fire is failing the Spillage Test and is unsafe. But, he has tested the flue itself for draught with a smoke pellet and is happy that the problem does not lie with the flue. Yet he can not tell me exactly what the problem is. My fire remains installed but disconnected.

Now I am in the horrible position of having spent 200 euro to have someone tell me that my fire can't be used. I have got in touch with the retailer who have told me that the manufacturer of the fire insists that the problem is with my flue and has nothing to do with them. So the deadlock begins....

My question, if anyone has an answer:

1) What would possibly make a fire fail a spillage test where the flue draught is considered acceptable. It is hard to argue with the manufacturer in that a failed spillage test will almost always imply flue trouble, yet my RGI insists this is not the case.

2) Would it seem reasonable that I insist that if I am to pay even more money to have someone else (as a second opinion) come to uninstall the fire, clean/check the flue, and confirm the flue is not the problem that the manufacturer/retailer should cover the cost involved? If it turns out my flue really is the problem, I will of course happily pay for it myself. Although where this might leave my relationship with the first RGI, I don't know.

Or should I simply insist that the manufacturer come out and prove me wrong?

It is a horrible position in that the manufacturer are choosing to ignore the opinion of my RGI to suit themselves. I could get another person out and have them ignored also. I really don't want to pay another penny until someone tells me exactly what the problem is.

None of this is helped by the fact that I have less than full confidence in the first RGI. I repeatedly pointed out errors he made (incorrect aeration setting after first install, restrictor fitted when Installation Instructions specifically say not to fit it with a precast flue, and a couple of more minor things) as well a few other small porkies used to keep me quiet I assume. But I have no option but to accept his and therefore his company's opinion until proven otherwise.

I am at wits end. I hoped this to be a Christmas present for the house but it turning into a nightmare for the bank account. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

311

First thing is to make sure the chimney has been swept.
Regardless of what use it got ,birds always nest in open chimneys.

There are lots of reasons for spillage ,anything from short chimneys (bungalows) to special vents that don't allow enough air in when it's windy.
Personally never had any bother installing a fire ,if people dont get the chimney swept beforehand ,I'd do it for them but it would be something that they'd be advised to do before we get there.
It's not the responsibility of an RGI installer to clean a chimney.

Ta me anseo

311 wrote: »

First thing is to make sure the chimney has been swept.
Regardless of what use it got ,birds always nest in open chimneys.

There are lots of reasons for spillage ,anything from short chimneys (bungalows) to special vents that don't allow enough air in when it's windy.
Personally never had any bother installing a fire ,if people dont get the chimney swept beforehand ,I'd do it for them but it would be something that they'd be advised to do before we get there.
It's not the responsibility of an RGI installer to clean a chimney.

Thanks for the reply 311.

The house has a precast flue terminating with a raised ridge tile which is surrounded by wire mesh so no birds can get in there. Our vent in the sitting room is large and clear also. The updraught into the flue appears to be very good when the fire is not running. Would it be common to have the flue pass a draught test with a smoke pellet, only for the fire to fail a spillage test when running later on?

A chimney clean certainly would do no harm I suppose, but I will have to pay someone to come and uninstall the fire first and then re-install it later. That could be another 2 or 300 euro only to find there is no change. I would gladly pay it if I could be reasonably sure it would fix it. But, how can I be reasonably sure??

311

A proper smoke test can only be done ,when the chimney/stack has heated up.
You may need to find out what type of terminal you have and what the regulations are for it.

There are some peculiar setups on houses that only cater for special fires.

Ta me anseo

311 wrote: »

A proper smoke test can only be done ,when the chimney/stack has heated up.

Yeah it was fully warmed up. The RGI man performed the flue test after the fire itself failed the spillage test and had been running for 15 minutes. As such, the fire was still in situ so the fact that the flue passed a smoke test with the fire still in place I thought was significant.

You may need to find out what type of terminal you have and what the regulations are for it.

There are some peculiar setups on houses that only cater for special fires.

The flue itself is labelled "Class 2 fires only" and has no other special notes. Thanks for the idea though. I'll get on to the builder and check the spec with them.

311

You should be aiming for a convector box fire so ,that is presuming your flue and therminal are to standard.

http://www.fireplacemegastore.co.uk/hole-in-the-wall-gas-fires-class-1-and-2/brilliant-fires-innovation-c4-square-gas-fire

Class 1 fires are the stand alone basket type ,class 2 are like the link above.
Convector box fires are a better fire and more economical.

malty

was the flue heated up when the spillage test was done and is there a fireback in the chimney opening?

Ta me anseo

malty wrote: »

was the flue heated up when the spillage test was done and is there a fireback in the chimney opening?

Flue was heated for 15 minutes (failed after 5 minutes so repeated at 10 minutes and 15 minutes) and there is no fireback in the opening.

311

If you have a box type fire you should have gotten parts to suit different flues.

Anyways ,good luck with it.

malty

i had an issue before where there was no fireback, the smoke pellet worked "inside" the fire but failed the smoke match pull test. Sent drawings and pics to a company in cork who advise building a "throat" type plate in the fireplace, like you would have with a fireback, to increase the pull.

fmcc

Hi ta me how is there no fireback if the fire was installed as it had to have something there if the fire was installed. Is there an adjoining room with an extract fan that may affect it or if the fireback was there and not fully sealed behind it it may have a kind of sucking vortex effct that may affect the flue, lastly does the fire protrude past the lentil of the fire ie is the main burner directly under the flue or has the wall pulled it forward.

Ta me anseo

fmcc wrote: »

Hi ta me how is there no fireback if the fire was installed as it had to have something there if the fire was installed. Is there an adjoining room with an extract fan that may affect it or if the fireback was there and not fully sealed behind it it may have a kind of sucking vortex effct that may affect the flue, lastly does the fire protrude past the lentil of the fire ie is the main burner directly under the flue or has the wall pulled it forward.

Sorry fmcc, I must be thinking of a fire back as being the kind that you find in a solid fuel fireplace. Our fireplace opening is lined with precast sections which taper up at the top to the standard class 11 style flue.

The fire is not a full depth fire and requires only a 120mm recess so the main burner is underneath the forward half of the flue but it certainly doesn't protude past the lentil. All of the fire, with the exception of the decorative grate is contained within the fireplace opening itself.

No extract fans in adjoining rooms other than the kitchen, which obviously would be quite powerful and could affect the draught. All the spillage tests failed with this fan off though so they didn't even get to the stage of having to worry about that.

Ta me anseo

Right, I think I've probably reached the stage of having to bite the bullet and get someone in to look at this for me.

Who should I contact to conduct a chimney/flue inspection? Should I just use a local chimney sweep?