Doing medicine abroad (esp in Eastern Europe)

DocDaneka

Hey,
I was reading some of the posts of this forum and I read that a number of Irish students are studying medicine in Eastern Europe. Thought I might give a friendly caution to those thinking of following in their foot steps. These courses might be "internationally recognised " but such graduates dont even get interviews for medical jobs in Ireland. If you are planning to work in the UK or USA then by all means persue these courses. However, given the hugely nepotistic nature of the Irish medical education system, your chances of getting a proper job in Ireland are slim to none. The colleges have a complete stanglehold both over the Internship ( necessary to register as a full member of the medical council ) and training schemes ( necessary to 1:get a job 2: specialise or 3:Advance your career ) . If you do get a job it will likely be a short term contract in some run down countryside A & E or locum cover for maternity leave. If you planning to become an Irish GP - forget about it. The colleges have it so sewn up that its extremely difficult to get a place with an honours degree from an Irish University. Foreign trained applicants arent even considered.(well ones from the uk are ) No GP scheme means you cant become an Irish GP - even if youve been the number 1 GP in Hungary for the last 20 years. Plus in the next 3 years an extra 200 medical graduates will be unleashed from Irish medical schools (450-650) - at the same time the number of available positions are decreasing. Like the massive surplus of physio's we have trained most of these graduates will have to emmigrate. Competition amongst Irish Graduates will be fierce, foreign-trained wont even get a look in.Studying medicine in Eastern Europe and avoiding the leaving cert rat race maybe tempting - but be warned, essentially all the good jobs/schemes are controlled by the colleges and the rest will be taken by overwhelmingly qualified foreingers with decades of experiences which you wont be able to match. If you want a job in Eastern Europe, train there but outwise watch out...........

Traumadoc

Some of what you say is true, some is not, I know of at least two non-irish GP trainees for instance.

I have only had one irish graduate form an eastern european medical school apply for a job. ( out of a total of about 600 applicants for 6 monthly jobs in the last 2 years) I interviewed the person and they did not get the job as they did not do a good interview.


We currently have 4000 NCHDs about half are Irish, the rest are generally from middle east africa ,india and pakistan. This is because historically no Irish would apply for these service jobs.

DocDaneka

Hi Traumadoc. Glad to hear some non-irish made it onto a gp-training scheme. But my comment was about non-irish graduates - not non irish. I know a malysian or two on gp-schemes but they are irish graduates. Like I said - a non irish graduate can get 6 month jobs (esp in a&e) but the reason irish dont apply is that they can be quite miserable and go nowhere career-wise. I cant see any eastern european grad ever landing a place on a 2 year sho scheme or especially a spr scheme (maybe after umpteen years in the doldrums ).

onetrueone

DocDaneka wrote: »

Hey,
I was reading some of the posts of this forum and I read that a number of Irish students are studying medicine in Eastern Europe. Thought I might give a friendly caution to those thinking of following in their foot steps. These courses might be "internationally recognised " but such graduates dont even get interviews for medical jobs in Ireland. If you are planning to work in the UK or USA then by all means persue these courses. However, given the hugely nepotistic nature of the Irish medical education system, your chances of getting a proper job in Ireland are slim to none. The colleges have a complete stanglehold both over the Internship ( necessary to register as a full member of the medical council ) and training schemes ( necessary to 1:get a job 2: specialise or 3:Advance your career ) . If you do get a job it will likely be a short term contract in some run down countryside A & E or locum cover for maternity leave. If you planning to become an Irish GP - forget about it. The colleges have it so sewn up that its extremely difficult to get a place with an honours degree from an Irish University. Foreign trained applicants arent even considered.(well ones from the uk are ) No GP scheme means you cant become an Irish GP - even if youve been the number 1 GP in Hungary for the last 20 years. Plus in the next 3 years an extra 200 medical graduates will be unleashed from Irish medical schools (450-650) - at the same time the number of available positions are decreasing. Like the massive surplus of physio's we have trained most of these graduates will have to emmigrate. Competition amongst Irish Graduates will be fierce, foreign-trained wont even get a look in.Studying medicine in Eastern Europe and avoiding the leaving cert rat race maybe tempting - but be warned, essentially all the good jobs/schemes are controlled by the colleges and the rest will be taken by overwhelmingly qualified foreingers with decades of experiences which you wont be able to match. If you want a job in Eastern Europe, train there but outwise watch out...........

Thanks for this thread - very informative.
I don't understand, If you are an EU trained GP, Can you not work as a GP here?
Can an EU trained GP (non Irish trained) hold a GMS contract?
If EU GPs can't work here Is it not against EU labour directives? (freedom of labour movement etc)

onetrueone

DocDaneka wrote: »

Hey,
Like the massive surplus of physio's we have trained most of these graduates will have to emmigrate.

The same is about to happen with Pharmacists, An increased intake into Trinity and two new schools of Pharmacy, not to mention the huge numbers studying in the UK.
All this because of the mythical shortage of Pharmacists.
Call me cynical but I am convinced the govt has a surrepticious agenda aimed at weakening the medical professions by creating a surplus of graduates willing to work for a pittance and in poor working conditions.
This policy was/is being used in the UK, to reduce consultants/GP's power and morale whilst at the same time dismantling the NHS

DocDaneka

Im not a GP but as far as I know:
A European trained GP can work as a locum. They cant hold GMS contracts. As far as i know to hold gms contracts you need to be registered with the medical council which you can only do via completing an approved (irish ) training scheme. Maybe a GP could flesh out the details.....

Traumadoc

DocDaneka wrote: »

Hi Traumadoc. Glad to hear some non-irish made it onto a gp-training scheme. But my comment was about non-irish graduates - not non irish. I know a malysian or two on gp-schemes but they are irish graduates. Like I said - a non irish graduate can get 6 month jobs (esp in a&e) but the reason irish dont apply is that they can be quite miserable and go nowhere career-wise. I cant see any eastern european grad ever landing a place on a 2 year sho scheme or especially a spr scheme (maybe after umpteen years in the doldrums ).

No I was talking about two non-nationals who did not attend irish medical schools who are on a GP scheme.
There have been plenty of non-national non- irish grads who have got on SPR schemes.

Tind777

there would be feck all regs and senior regs in ireland if it wasnt for non national qualified docs, where have you been for the last 50 years.

DocDaneka

Like i said its fairly easy to get dead-end 6 months jobs one after the other, in hospitals up and down the country. Do it long enough and you become a reg/senior reg. I know some pakistani doctors who have been senior regs for 10 years and still havent landed a proper job. Im am very glad some non nationals made it onto a training scheme - i know their arent any at all on our hospital. As for spr schemes "plenty" is a gross exaggeration. Of all the non national + non-national trained (there is a huge difference ) regs out there maybe 5% are on spr schemes - and most of them are unpopular psych/surgery countryside schemes.

Traumadoc

DocDaneka wrote: »

Like i said its fairly easy to get dead-end 6 months jobs one after the other, in hospitals up and down the country. Do it long enough and you become a reg/senior reg. I know some pakistani doctors who have been senior regs for 10 years and still havent landed a proper job.

Senior registrar is a grade that has almost gone - I know of no-one with that title now.
Many registrars who have held positions for more than 3 years have been made permanent, and are happy to remain at that level.

A lot of training in Ireland is really service providing. So getting on higher irish training is not necessarily the best training one could get.

ergo

onetrueone wrote: »

Thanks for this thread - very informative.
I don't understand, If you are an EU trained GP, Can you not work as a GP here?
Can an EU trained GP (non Irish trained) hold a GMS contract?
If EU GPs can't work here Is it not against EU labour directives? (freedom of labour movement etc)

there's quite a bit of info on this link on the various routes to getting the MICGP if you've done your GP training overseas
http://www.icgp.ie/go/membership/routes_to_membership/equivalent_qualifications

as regards whether you can apply for a GMS post, as far as I know due to EU rules they have to accept applications from anyone with equivalent qualifications and to quote from a different section of the ICGP website:

" Q: What do I need to apply for a GMS Post?

A. In order to be eligible for a GMS post you will need to obtain a Certificate of Specific Training or a Certificate of Acquired Rights under EU Directive 93/16.

Q. What is a Certificate of Specific Training in General Practice?

A. Certificate of Specific Training in General Practice is a Cert issued by a Competent Authority (designated under EU Directive 93/16) stating that the applicant has completed recognised training in the speciality of general practice.

Q. Where do I get one?

A. The Medical Council are the competent authority under EU Directive 93/16 for issuing of such certificates in Ireland.

Q. How do I know if I am eligible for one?

A. Those who have satisfactorily completed a recognised structured training programme in the Republic of Ireland and are successful in obtaining Membership of the Irish College of General Practitioners by Examination, are eligible to the apply for a Certificate of Specific Training from the Medical Council of Ireland.

Those who have completed training in another European country must apply to the relevant competent authority in the state in which they have completed training.

Those who have completed training outside of the European Union wishing to work in the GMS, can apply to the Medical Council of Ireland to have their training/experience recognised as equivalent. Those wishing to pursue this route must complete the relevant applications forms and provide independent confirmatory documentation that the training they have undertaken is recognised by the appropriate general practice/medical authority in the country they have completed training.
"


just in general regarding future jobs in Ireland yes there's going to be a big shortage and €1 Billion of HSE cutbacks won't help that, and yes, in certain specialties, nepotism is rife and Ireland is so small, medically speaking, maybe that's inevitable

onetrueone

Thanks ergo for all the comprehensive info.

eth0_

DocDaneka wrote: »

I know some pakistani doctors who have been senior regs for 10 years and still havent landed a proper job.

Hmm controversial but I sometimes get the impression Asian trained doctors are not in the same league as those trained in the EU. I've certainly never had a confidence inspiring experience with them (when i've noticed the certificates on the wall are from Asian universities). In one case where I had a suspected broken bone in my foot, the doctor kept referring to my toes as "fingers"

RobFowl

eth0_ wrote: »

Hmm controversial but I sometimes get the impression Asian trained doctors are not in the same league as those trained in the EU. I've certainly never had a confidence inspiring experience with them (when i've noticed the certificates on the wall are from Asian universities). In one case where I had a suspected broken bone in my foot, the doctor kept referring to my toes as "fingers"

To be fair the bones in your fingers are called phalanges which is the same term used for the bones in your toes, can see why it doesn't inspire confidence though

eth0_

phalanges....fingers...not the same word. If your English is that bad it could be quite dangerous for your patients.

RobFowl

eth0_ wrote: »

phalanges....fingers...not the same word. If your English is that bad it could be quite dangerous for your patients.

In the UK if English is not your first language you have to pass a strict medical English proficiency test before you can be registered. Here you don't need to prove any level of English at all (the powers that be argued that it we did introduce such a test half the hospital jobs in smaller hospitals would never get filled).

eth0_

This is totally unsurprising.

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

Senior registrar is a grade that has almost gone - I know of no-one with that title now.
Many registrars who have held positions for more than 3 years have been made permanent, and are happy to remain at that level.

A lot of training in Ireland is really service providing. So getting on higher irish training is not necessarily the best training one could get.

Sr still psych and ophthalmology

I agree about the training

MedGraduate

Traumadoc wrote: »

No I was talking about two non-nationals who did not attend irish medical schools who are on a GP scheme.
There have been plenty of non-national non- irish grads who have got on SPR schemes.

hi there
Just was reading your posts about the GP training. And if you don't mind I would like to ask you a question.
I am EU national who has graduated from EU medical school last June. Is there a chance for me to get onto GP training programme for 2010 or will I be wasting my time?

sorry for disturbing you.
Thanks in advance

ergo

MedGraduate wrote: »

hi there
Just was reading your posts about the GP training. And if you don't mind I would like to ask you a question.
I am EU national who has graduated from EU medical school last June. Is there a chance for me to get onto GP training programme for 2010 or will I be wasting my time?

sorry for disturbing you.
Thanks in advance

Hi MedGraduate, just to quote from the ICGP website regarding GP training programmes

Doctors who have temporary or full registration with the Irish Medical Council are eligible to apply

more info from http://www.icgp.ie/go/become_a_gp

getting on a programmes is ultra-competitive though - at least 3 applicants for every one place. As far as I know last year the UCD training scheme had 100 first choice applicants for 9 places - even getting an interview is an achievement - (they might interview 24/25 people for these 9 places) - there are a lot of boxes to tick in terms of CV and previous GP electives etc to increase your chances of being selected - am sure there's a thread on this here somewhere

MedGraduate

ergo wrote: »

Hi MedGraduate, just to quote from the ICGP website regarding GP training programmes



more info from http://www.icgp.ie/go/become_a_gp

getting on a programmes is ultra-competitive though - at least 3 applicants for every one place. As far as I know last year the UCD training scheme had 100 first choice applicants for 9 places - even getting an interview is an achievement - (they might interview 24/25 people for these 9 places) - there are a lot of boxes to tick in terms of CV and previous GP electives etc to increase your chances of being selected - am sure there's a thread on this here somewhere

cheers
Does anyone know about Clinical observation? I have applied for SHO position and the one in HR department suggested doing a bit of Clinical observation in one of the major hospitals to get experience. Just wondering does anybody know is it a good thing to do or not? and if it is, where would be more chances getting observership?
thanks

drzhivago

MedGraduate wrote: »

cheers
Does anyone know about Clinical observation? I have applied for SHO position and the one in HR department suggested doing a bit of Clinical observation in one of the major hospitals to get experience. Just wondering does anybody know is it a good thing to do or not? and if it is, where would be more chances getting observership?
thanks

What did you apply for (dont name hospital)

Many hospitals getting very strict on clinical observers and dont offer the option because

• You cant do anything clinically
• You are what looks like an extar doctor doing nothing (were a few complaints in a hospital i worked in about waiting times while some doctors were doing nothing)
• You may not come under the Clinical Indemnity scheme
• Someone has to invest time in you for you to get soemthing out of the observership and that is a very precious commodity indeed

On the other hand if you have Full Registration with the Medical council it might well be a very tactical thing to do

If you have full registration then you could actually do things with patients just not get paid-that can be a way in to a hospital

Another option is to ask if there are any research projects they need a hand with, try an Emergency department as they never have anyone to do this and often fail to complete projects because of the lack of personnel to do things during day hours when chart storage is open

imported_guy

We are in the reference to your admission form for admission in Lugansk State Medical University Ukraine.We are happy to inform you that University is ready to give you a seat this year in your desired program in Lugansk Medical University.

i rejected it cuz its a 6 year course, im 19 right now 2nd yr of my BEng degree, if i graduate from there i'll be 25, if i just do the GEM course from ireland i'll be 26 when i graduate, but i'll have easier time finding a job, and wont have to learn stupid languages which i will never use again, ever. (like german PFF wtf did i need german for in school?!?!?!?!, its not like i'll ever go to germany, plus, ive already forgoten everything.)

Tevez101

My friend got a 460 in his leaving, he got a B1 in chemsitry and a B3 in physics....would he be eligble to study medecine in eastern europe?

drzhivago

Tevez101 wrote: »

My friend got a 460 in his leaving, he got a B1 in chemsitry and a B3 in physics....would he be eligble to study medecine in eastern europe?

You need an average to good leaving and your wallet but why do it if you cant come back here or EU to work

imported_guy

drzhivago wrote: »

You need an average to good leaving and your wallet but why do it if you cant come back here or EU to work

eastern europe has alot of countries in the EU lol

drzhivago

imported_guy wrote: »

eastern europe has alot of countries in the EU lol

You missed my point from earlier threads
you have a degree
you have mobility
but you have no experience once qualified and hence cant get job anywhere as language unlikely to be up to scratch to compete for job in country qualifying is, most of these countries offer private education in English

That was what I meant
degree but no job is no good to anyone

imported_guy

drzhivago wrote: »

You missed my point from earlier threads
you have a degree
you have mobility
but you have no experience once qualified and hence cant get job anywhere as language unlikely to be up to scratch to compete for job in country qualifying is, most of these countries offer private education in English

That was what I meant
degree but no job is no good to anyone

the thread was months old and just got bumped i thought you were adressing the last post, theres a sticky where all of this is being discussed

Pete4779

imported_guy wrote: »

i rejected it cuz its a 6 year course, im 19 right now 2nd yr of my BEng degree, if i graduate from there i'll be 25, if i just do the GEM course from ireland i'll be 26 when i graduate, but i'll have easier time finding a job, and wont have to learn stupid languages which i will never use again, ever. (like german PFF wtf did i need german for in school?!?!?!?!, its not like i'll ever go to germany, plus, ive already forgoten everything.)

That is an excellent decision. The best option for Irish leaving cert level people (referring to your age), if they are not in an Irish or UK med school or looking at GEM, is too look at other english EU med schools, e.g., Charles University or the other 1 or 2 english speaking med schools in the EU that have a good reputation. After that, look at the US (very large costs involved, ~ US$200k) or else try to get into one of the big 4 or 5 in Germany (Heidelberg, Ludwigs Maximillian, etc.,).

If you are doing engineering, you could very easily set yourself up with more long term prospects in Orthopaedics. Who knows, maybe you will invent Luke Skywalkers robotic arm?

imported_guy

Pete4779 wrote: »

That is an excellent decision. The best option for Irish leaving cert level people (referring to your age), if they are not in an Irish or UK med school or looking at GEM, is too look at other english EU med schools, e.g., Charles University or the other 1 or 2 english speaking med schools in the EU that have a good reputation. After that, look at the US (very large costs involved, ~ US$200k) or else try to get into one of the big 4 or 5 in Germany (Heidelberg, Ludwigs Maximillian, etc.,).

If you are doing engineering, you could very easily set yourself up with more long term prospects in Orthopaedics. Who knows, maybe you will invent Luke Skywalkers robotic arm?

well you still need to learn czech in charles, polish in lodz w/e they only have their classes in english, you need to have czech/polish for clinicals.... and US med schools are around 50k a year, carribien ones are cheap but they only take graduates.

im not really into orthopeaedics :P i'd probably be more interested in going to america after graduating from here, and becoming a anesthesiologist or maybe a surgeon (neuro/cardiac/plastic/genral) any of em hmmmmmm long way away though


and this thread is OLD brah

locum-motion

This is an old thread that has been ressurected. Since it dates from before the Bio/Med split, when the Health Sciences Education sub-forum was 'invented', I'm moving it over there where it's more appropriate.
Thanks,
L-M.