Drinking in UCD

roadwars

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Your car isn't a house.

But it is private property

Thomas_S_Hunterson

roadwars wrote: »

But it is private property

It is your property but it is not 'private property', it is not land as such

Donny5

dyl10 wrote: »

I don't think it really matters whether its legal or not, at the end of the day you could have told them not to search your car and they couldn't do it, the consequence would just be that they/police would probably escort you off the premises and maybe you'd get reprimanded by the University. Unless they physically forced you out of the way and searched your car then they didn't do anything illegal. That being said, if they blocked your car in and stopped you from leaving the campus without being searched, that most definitely is illegal.

You are on UCD grounds, so I suppose it comes down to you obeying their By-laws while you are on the campus or don't come on to the campus at all

That's an odd one, really, since UCD doesn't have signs on all entrances proclaiming that you must obey it's by-laws, which are just rules and not actual laws.

noodler wrote: »

I thought it was illegal to have anyone drinking in a car.

Defo illegal to do it on UCD grounds anyway.

If it's not illegal in public, it's not illegal in UCD. It may be against the rules, but not illegal.

noodler wrote: »

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment. They have to police around 20,000+ students. Half of them like the OP here think its okay to park their car, blare music and drink on campus.

I was under the impression they could physically remove you from somewhere if you were being a nuisance just like in a nightclub.

The ones hired specifically for events and gigs etc seem to be the worst-it is like they have no experience doing the job and are not aware of what they are allowed/not allowed to do.

Anyway, I guess I just want it bore in mind that handling crowds of drunk, rowdy students is a difficult job-anyone who has ever worked in a pub/club will always be amazed how stupid people can get when they've had a few-something that becomes even more painfully obvious when you are stone cold sober.

I concur that I can't see why they thought they would be allowed to search anyone who is not in the queue for the Student Bar.

Being searched by private security without consent is illegal. They're just citizen's (if even that) and only have those rights. Certainly a non-citizen has no right to detain you other than to prevent an assualt.

roadwars

Sean_K wrote: »

It is your property but it is not 'private property', it is not land as such

It is private property as I own it not the state

Donald-Duck

roadwars wrote: »

It is private property as I own it not the state

Then your clothes are property so they shouldn't be allowed search you while you're in them

roadwars

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Then your clothes are property so they shouldn't be allowed search you while you're in them

They can’t search you they’re not the police. I presume the next thing your going to say is “well they search bags going into clubs". If you’re going into a club and they search your bag, you can say no but then they won’t let you into the club.

timmywex

Donny5 wrote: »

Certainly a non-citizen has no right to detain you other than to prevent an assualt.

Or a citizens arrest...!

Donny5

timmywex wrote: »

Or a citizens arrest...!

I believe non-citizens are unable to perform citizen's arrests.

Riamfada

Donny5 wrote: »

I believe non-citizens are unable to perform citizen's arrests.

Take that illegal immigrants!

Jev/N

Both Grimes and roadwars, do you have much knowledge of the law, particularly criminal law??

Your private home has a totally different representation in terms of the law due to the provision in the constitution, and thus various statutory provisions, of inviolability of the dwelling.

A car it would appear is not afforded the same status, unless you can claim you live in your car and it is your dwelling.

As I previously stated, your car doesn't qualify as strictly private property so you cannot drink, have sex etc. within it while the vehicle is on public property or, in the case of UCD, you're conduct will have to comply to the student code, rules etc. along with the normal statutory provisions

The search was illegal, I'm not disputing that, but your attitude that it's "private property" and the idea that you can essentially do whatever you like in your car, as if you were in your home, is absurd.

ferdi

roadwars wrote: »

So people drinking in your car is not allowed even thought its private property? OK i'll know for next time. I'm not going to complain because i know how it will go.
"Were you drinking on campus?"
"Well yes, but"
"Don't need to hear any more thanks, you now get xyz penalty"

well if you want to get pedantic about it (and I often do) then you were not drinking and I very much doubt that ucd have a bye-law making you responsible for what your friends do in your car. the rentacops had no right to to search your car and you should have offered to call the police for them. i've seen them using their milf-mobiles to block in cars before, this should also be tackled with a call to the police. if nobody calls them on their BS "powers" then the student population of ucd will continue to be abused by these people.

Tayto2000

Searching the car was illegal, unless the owner gave consent.

Drinking in carparks is against UCD's own rules and it comes under the intoxicating liquor act now as well, calling the gardai is likely to result in getting your drink seized under the new public order provisions.

noodler

ferdi wrote: »

well if you want to get pedantic about it (and I often do) then you were not drinking and I very much doubt that ucd have a bye-law making you responsible for what your friends do in your car. the rentacops had no right to to search your car and you should have offered to call the police for them. i've seen them using their milf-mobiles to block in cars before, this should also be tackled with a call to the police. if nobody calls them on their BS "powers" then the student population of ucd will continue to be abused by these people.

I'd say you have a degree of responsibility for what people do in your car tbh.

It is illegal to drink in public to whoever said it was not.

Riamfada

noodler wrote: »

I'd say you have a degree of responsibility for what people do in your car tbh.

It is illegal to drink in public to whoever said it was not.

Does this justify the illegal blocking and searching of your car by other regular people ?

noodler

Grimes wrote: »

Does this justify the illegal blocking and searching of your car by other regular people ?

Since you were here since the beginning of the thread, I find it surprising that you would ask that.

So for around the third time, no.

Tayto2000

Grimes wrote: »

Does this justify the illegal blocking and searching of your car by other regular people ?

Where has this been said? No one has suggested that they had any right to carry out a search.

Drinking in a carpark is illegal. The search was illegal. One doesn't justify the other, they're separate issues. What seems to be in question now is whether sitting in a car to drink gets around UCDs rules and the intoxicating liquor act. Without a legal background, I'm still going to guess no to both.

Riamfada

Sorry gents, there appears to be two topics going on here. Yes I assume its illegal to have open alcohol in your car and Im pretty sure its illegal to be drinking in a car even if you do not intend to drive it. Im certainly not disagreeing that the OP was in the wrong, legally.

delta_bravo

This is going nowhere, as expected

bnt

delta_bravo wrote: »

This is going nowhere, as expected

As expected, as you say. Want to know what I think? No? Well, you don't have to read the following if you don't want to.

I have no involvement in the original incident, and only know what I've read here. All I get from these descriptions are failures of common sense on every side.
- sitting in a car, drinking? Fail.
- attracting attention by turning up the music? Fail.
- Security taking it on themselves to search the car, without clearly asking permission: Fail.
= Summary: Fail, on both sides.

So?

When you have to fall back on your "rights", it's already too late. It starts sounding like something from a Monty Python sketch: "Help! I'm being repressed!" The situation should never have gotten to that state in the first place. Fail.

When Security people have to deal with a situation, they do not have time to agonise over exactly what they can or can not do. If you tell them "I wasn't drinking", do you think they would believe you, assuming they even care? Shut it down, ask questions later - that is what Security does, by nature. I don't know what the letter of the law says regarding car searches, and I don't think that's the answer here, anyway.

Whatever "rights" you have as a student, you are there at the pleasure of the authorities, and the Student Code includes provisions about norms of behaviour (section 2) and breaches of discipline (section 6). If you try and take this further, you could find yourself up in front of UCD authorities, explaining (sections 7-10) what you were doing there, in a car on UCD property, with drink, making a noise, in violation of at least three of the rules in section 6.

The security has been appointed by UCD, and you can not expect UCD to publicly undermine their authority to deal with situations as they see fit, though I agree that UCD ought to have a private word with them about this kind of thing. Do not expect UCD to tell you "they were wrong", just so you can post it here. Learn from it, and move on. "Rights" won't keep you on as a student when you violate university rules - do you think they haven't seen it all before?

roadwars

I would like to see the law that says you cant have drink in the car when the driver isn't drinking. If you cant find one can you not presume it is legal?
Also where does it say my car isn't private property?
Could people not just sit in it and refuse to get out, as if it isn't private it must be public.

Tayto2000

roadwars wrote: »

I would like to see the law that says you cant have drink in the car when the driver isn't drinking.

I don't think that applies here, I've heard of it in the states (mostly through TV I'll admit). People drinking in a car in public is a different matter though.

roadwars wrote: »

If you cant find one can you not presume it is legal?

No. If I pitch a tent in the carpark, it's private property but it's still public drinking. I don't create a magic bubble of private property (in the land sense) inside my tent.

roadwars wrote: »

Also where does it say my car isn't private property?

Nowhere, but sitting in it doesn't mean you're not in public. As said by every respondee here, the search was ILLEGAL unless you gave permission.

roadwars wrote: »

Could people not just sit in it and refuse to get out, as if it isn't private it must be public.

Probably, but you're still caught under the ITA. From googling up the ITA 2008, these are the public order provisions:

* The Garda Síochána will be permitted to seize any bottle or container which is in possession of a person who appears to be under the age of 18 and which the member suspects, with reasonable cause, contains alcohol which is being consumed, or intended to be consumed, by a person under 18 years in a place other than a private residence.

(Doesn't apply here I'm assuming. But note that it specifies residence.)

* The Garda Síochána will be permitted to seize bottles or containers containing alcohol where there is a reasonable apprehension of public disorder or damage to property and require a person to leave the place concerned in a peaceable and orderly manner.

* Fixed penalty charges will be introduced for the offences of intoxication in a public place and disorderly conduction in a public place.

The provisions are very broad and can be interpreted pretty freely by the gardai, but I'm thinking that drinking in a car in a carpark with music blaring could probably justify 'reasonable apprehension of public disorder' if the Gardi have had to intervene.

Donald-Duck

I think it needs to be pointed out to him that private property does not share the same meaning as property

roadwars

Private Property
Article 43
1. 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.
2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.
2. 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.
2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

I accept that I could well and probably am wrong but it says external goods e.g. car? thus you have private property rights?

F-Stop

The group of people you were with were drinking on campus. That's against College policy so if you are students you were breaking the rules. If you are not students, or staff, then you could be seen as tresspassing on private property. You were stupid enough to deliberatly draw attention to yourselves.

However, the security people conducting a search on your car is completely illegal. Did any of the people in the car video it? Most phones have video capability nowadays.

It's a pity you brought it on yourself because this sort of stuff needs to be reported. Unfortunately a report where someone states they knew they were breaking college policy, and intentionally drew attention to themselves isn't going to fly. Oddly enough there are very few (absolutely none) posts saying I parked legally in the Eng carpark at 19:30 to go to an evening lecture and arrived back at 22:30 and got in my car and drove home.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

roadwars wrote: »

Private Property
Article 43
1. 1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.
2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.
2. 1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.
2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

I accept that I could well and probably am wrong but it says external goods e.g. car? thus you have private property rights?

That's all well and good but can you not see the difference between 'private property' which you can hold in your hand (a car, an ipod) and private property (where you lay your head at night, say)

Red Alert

I've often wondered about this in the car parks in shopping centres - I see people smoking in cars on their way to the exit. I wonder are they technically breaking the law or once they're in their own car are they not? Same definition of whether you're on college property would probably apply there.

generalmiaow

Red Alert wrote: »

I've often wondered about this in the car parks in shopping centres - I see people smoking in cars on their way to the exit. I wonder are they technically breaking the law or once they're in their own car are they not? Same definition of whether you're on college property would probably apply there.

This actually fascinates me. I mean, your car is inside the workspace, therefore, you are inside the workspace. However, it is the car enclosing you rather than the workspace. I know people whose apartments are inside workspaces (e.g. in a building where cleaners work on every floor and may have other functions) but they are obviously able to smoke in their own homes. I suppose it's along the same lines as whether you can smoke with one leg inside a door, etc.

Anyway OP, what were they searching for if they already had seen the drink? Had they found more, what would they have done with it? How would they know how to properly conduct a search, given that it's not part of their job and illegal? Also, are you sure you don't live in your car?

roadwars

Sean_K wrote: »

That's all well and good but can you not see the difference between 'private property' which you can hold in your hand (a car, an ipod) and private property (where you lay your head at night, say)

I accept that there is a difference but can you show me the legislation for this?

generalmiaow wrote: »

Anyway OP, what were they searching for if they already had seen the drink? Had they found more, what would they have done with it? How would they know how to properly conduct a search, given that it's not part of their job and illegal? Also, are you sure you don't live in your car?

They were searching for more drink which they undoubtedly would have tried to take if they had found it.
I don't live in my car!

Jev/N

roadwars wrote: »

I accept that there is a difference but can you show me the legislation for this?

I don't think there is one specific provision that plainly says your car isn't treated in the same legal category as a private residence

roadwars

Jev/N wrote: »

I don't think there is one specific provision that plainly says your car isn't treated in the same legal category as a private residence

Please post a link to where it says this.