Gun lisence

greenpeter

Do ye carry your gun lisence when out shooting? A friend of a friend had his gun lifted at a check point the other nite cause he didn't have his lisence with him. They were out lamping.

IRLConor

I've moved this to the main forum since it's an issue that affects all shooters.

The format of firearm certs and the fact that they're printed on flimsy paper means that it's not really practical to bring them everywhere without ruining them. I leave mine in a folder in my kitbag which comes with me every time I'm shooting but I can see how it's a lot trickier for people out hunting.

Previous suggested solutions when this has come up in the past have been to laminate it (not helpful for write-in modifications) or to bring a photocopy with you (not helpful if the Garda is awkward about it).

It wasn't me!

Absolutely. At competitions, it's always in my kit bag. When after bunnies, it's in a jacket pocket. No reason at all not to have it on you.

IRLConor

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No reason at all not to have it on you.

Unless it's already falling apart and bringing it out would make it worse.

I'd say at the very least, bring a photocopy.

Bananaman

it stays with the firearm - all the time

B'Man

Rovi

Any time a gun is out of the safe/house, I'll have the licence with me.
I usually bring them (the licences) with me when I'm driving anywhere too, as you never know when you'll get the opportunity to visit a new gun shop, and buying a bit of ammunition is a good ice-breaker.

Dr Strange

You can always get a European Firearms Pass once you have your licence. It is still not ideal but it is small and passport-size and you can get it for free.

It wasn't me!

IRLConor wrote: »

Unless it's already falling apart and bringing it out would make it worse.

I'd say at the very least, bring a photocopy.

I've it folded up inside one of those little plastic jobbies for holding bus tickets, does the trick nicely.

Sparks

Waterproof document pouches are also an option (about $10-15 on amazon, cheaper on ebay) or you could just put it in an A5 plastic document envelope for a binder - something like this but in an A5 size:


Damage to the licence is a genuine concern, and one that hopefully would be taken into account when the new 3-year licences are being designed, but until then you can get around the problem because the licence is reissued annually.

So yes, always keep it with the firearm.

clivej

I got the FO to photocopy this years licenses when I went to collect them at the station. Just as well as I can't find the originals since we moved house and only have the photocopies now. :eek:

Always kept in my wallet all the time.

k_d

i got my shotgun off my grandfather, he used to keep his licence in the stock, one screw takes the stock butt of and its hollowed so licence sits there...always with the gun!

Grizzly 45

Could do this as well.Photocopy liscense,reduce in size by whatever means to passport size, and laminate.All pertinent details are on it,it is waterproof,and is still readable. I keep mine encoded on my USB stick as well. Hopefully the 3year liscense will be a bit more user friendly and portable.Or will that be asking too much???:p

greenpeter

Better start to carry mine i never take it with me. It should be like a credit card only more fleixable, would be very handy

endasmail

greenpeter wrote: »

Better start to carry mine i never take it with me. It should be like a credit card only more fleixable, would be very handy

better start doing the same ,i never bring mine for fear of losing it ,very hard to come by ,the license

cavan shooter

carry mine with me all the time, especially this time of year when a check point at night is more than probabal. Mine fit in the wallet folded and bever a problem

BOBTHESHOOTER

greenpeter wrote: »

Do ye carry your gun lisence when out shooting? A friend of a friend had his gun lifted at a check point the other nite cause he didn't have his lisence with him. They were out lamping.

This is a typical example of the Gardai being ignorant of the legislation, they acted outside of their powers, while it is common sense to carry your certificate while in posession of your gun it is not manditory and unless one is involved in illegal activity the Garda should have asked for the individuals name and address, a quick radio call to someone at the Garda computer could verify the legitimacy of the firearms holder.

Seizing the gun is unlawful in the circumstances described.

Ref: 1925 Firearms Act:

Powers of members of Gárda Síochána. 22.—(1) Any member of the Gárda Síochána may demand from any person whom he observes or believes to be in possession of, using, or carrying a firearm or any ammunition, the production of his firearm certificate and if such person fails to produce and permit such member to read a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of, use, or carry (as-the case may require) such firearm or ammunition, such member of the Gárda Síochána may unless such person shows that he is entitled by law to have possession of, use, or carry (as the case may require) at that time and in that place such firearm or ammunition without having a firearm certificate therefor demand from such person his name and address.

[GA] (2) If any person, on demand being made to him under this section by a member of the Gárda Síochána, refuses to give to such member his name and address or gives a name or address which is false or misleading in any material particular, he shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.

[GA] (3) Any member of the Gárda, Síochána may arrest without warrant any person who, on demand being made under this section, refuses to give his name and address or gives a name or address which the member of the Gárda Síochána demanding the same knows or suspects to be false or misleading in any material particular.

[GA] (4) In addition to any other powers conferred on him under this Act or otherwise, any member of the Gárda Síochána may stop and search and may also arrest without warrant any person whom he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, and may search any such person, and, whether arresting him or not, may seize and detain any firearm or ammunition in his possession or used or carried by him.

Sparks

Technically you're correct Bob, in that they weren't acting lawfully in regard to sections 22(1), 22(2), and 22(3) of the 1925 Act. Mind you, technically they were acting completely legally under section 22(4) of the 1925 Act, but I'd have to go check to see if that was amended by the 1964 Act, or the 1971 Act or the 1990 Act or the 2006 Act or the 2007 Act to be sure (edit:I checked, it's not).

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

(4) In addition to any other powers conferred on him under this Act or otherwise, any member of the Gárda Síochána may stop and search and may also arrest without warrant any person whom he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, and may search any such person, and, whether arresting him or not, may seize and detain any firearm or ammunition in his possession or used or carried by him.

Of course, technically, they could charge you under section 9 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 and arrest you on the spot, given that that Act gives the Gardai the right to arrest anyone they regard as carrying "any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise" and the onus will be on the defendant to prove his innocence in court - it's one section of the law that doesn't go in for this "innocent until proven guilty" liberal, woolly-minded thinking.

I generally go by the principle that it's best not to be too stupidly cheeky to a Garda who has the right to arrest you, which ruins your weekend and leads to an awkward chat with the boss about why you were late for work on Monday morning because you were discussing your bail with the solicitor.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

Technically you're correct Bob, in that they weren't acting lawfully in regard to sections 22(1), 22(2), and 22(3) of the 1925 Act. Mind you, technically they were acting completely legally under section 22(4) of the 1925 Act, but I'd have to go check to see if that was amended by the 1964 Act, or the 1971 Act or the 1990 Act or the 2006 Act or the 2007 Act to be sure (edit:I checked, it's not).






Of course, technically, they could charge you under section 9 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 and arrest you on the spot, given that that Act gives the Gardai the right to arrest anyone they regard as carrying "any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise" and the onus will be on the defendant to prove his innocence in court - it's one section of the law that doesn't go in for this "innocent until proven guilty" liberal, woolly-minded thinking.

I generally go by the principle that it's best not to be too stupidly cheeky to a Garda who has the right to arrest you, which ruins your weekend and leads to an awkward chat with the boss about why you were late for work on Monday morning because you were discussing your bail with the solicitor.

4 only comes into play when "he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, "

It would be more reasonable for the Gardai to consider the circumstances of the individual in posession of the firearm, in the case cited it is clear that this was a hunter in the field with all the appropriate kit, circumstances would be different if the car was stopped in the middle of Limerick with balaclavas in the boot.................

Common sense should prevail in the case of the Gardai and they are too quick to take posession of firearms clearly knowing that no wrong doing has taken place, it would not be unreasonable for the individual to receive an explanation for the removal of personal property when clearly there was no need for it. As I said a simple radio check would determine the validity of the name and address given and would pull up the pulse Id of the individual also.

The hassle of getting a gun taken and having to recover it is yet again another example of the Gardai treating lawful gun ownership with contempt.

In this case it would be my firm position that the Garda who took posession of the firearm should be asked to account for his action and state the circumstances in which he felt that it was necessary to take posession of the firearm. The more we let these incidents occur more they will occur, seems to me that it is another example of the Gardai making it up as they go along............................

ronn

my gun slip has a small pocket in it which is handy, wouldnt get my hopes up for the credit card style licence though, look at the ten year car licence,

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

4 only comes into play when "he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, "

And if you don't have your licence on you, then he's perfectly within his rights, the law, and even common sense (depending on the circumstances) to believe that.

It would be more reasonable for the Gardai

Certainly true from our point of view, with decades of experience with firearms and knowlege of hunting and in-depth knowlege of the law involved. Thing is, Gardai don't have our training and experience with firearms and our time spent learning the relevant law and learning about hunting. From my point of view, the Garda in question was being reasonable - he takes the firearm, the hunter goes home, gets the cert, goes to the station and takes home the firearm and next time the Garda will know the lad and it might not go that way.

Thing is, it's not like he arrested him and threw the hunter in jail - which he was entitled to do under the law.

Common sense should prevail

Common sense just isn't.

The hassle of getting a gun taken and having to recover it is yet again another example of the Gardai treating lawful gun ownership with contempt.

It really isn't. It's like the Gardai asking you to show up at the station with your driving licence if they catch you driving without it in the car - it sounds like a hassle but it's actually them letting you off because it's technically an offence and they should be coming down harder on you for it.

In this case it would be my firm position that the Garda who took posession of the firearm should be asked to account for his action and state the circumstances in which he felt that it was necessary to take posession of the firearm. The more we let these incidents occur more they will occur, seems to me that it is another example of the Gardai making it up as they go along............................

It's my firm position that that kind of attitude combined with an incorrect grasp of the relevant law and the duties of the Gardai is the kind of thing that (a) destroys any kind of working relationship between shooters and the Gardai, and (b) is a waste of everyone's time, and (c) leads to bad things for all of the rest of us.

Seriously, the hunter in question screwed up - he should have had the cert with him. The Garda in question gave him as much of a break as his job let him give. Bob, the right thing to do is to let the hunter know that, not try to start a fight over nothing.

Our man in Havana

Could the Garda not check pulse over the radio and confirm your licence status?

spideog7

Rarely bring mine out unless it's at night and I have the rifle, then I always bring it. I put it in a clear CD wallet folded up it's nice and cosy. I usually always have my NARGC and Gun Club membership card when out hunting though.

CJhaughey

I know this is only wishful thinking, but in some other countries the issue of licenses used to be on Tyvek paper.
You know the stuff? It is sometimes used for envelopes but is waterproof, virtually tearproof and waterproof.
This would be a great solution if the credit card format wasn't sufficiently large.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Seriously, the hunter in question screwed up - he should have had the cert with him. The Garda in question gave him as much of a break as his job let him give. Bob, the right thing to do is to let the hunter know that, not try to start a fight over nothing.

_________________________________________________________________


I would totally agree with you Sparks and I think at a time when the shooting fraternity is under pressure, misleading information is not good.

It is not that inconvenient to carry your license with you if your consider all the other equipment hunters bring with them.

What people see as their divine right, isn't always right.

Sikamick

Trojan911

Never used to carry one because of the wear & tear factor on it, but do now after my buddy and I were stopped one night out lamping having received a painful lecture from an over zealous traffic cop one night.

The .308 licence is always in the shoulder bag along with the stalking permit etc & my shotgun licence is now carried on me when out shooting.

Bananaman

The hassle of getting a gun taken and having to recover it is yet again another example of the Gardai treating lawful gun ownership with contempt.

It really isn't. It's like the Gardai asking you to show up at the station with your driving licence if they catch you driving without it in the car - it sounds like a hassle but it's actually them letting you off because it's technically an offence and they should be coming down harder on you for it.

If the reason the Garda took the firearm in is that he/she was not up to date on what the procedure is it also stands to reason that he/she does not know how to best handle or store the firearm. If it had been a wet day when they took it off you and it gets stuck in secure storage in the station and it's a week or so before you get it back it'll be rusted to bits. Timber possibly warping from too much heat etc.

I have to agree that the fallback position should be to radio the station for a pulse check if they are not on it, then arrest them and bring them and the firearm to the station. If they are on it then formally request that they present their license in the station the following day.

B'Man

greenpeter

Bond-007 wrote: »

Could the Garda not check pulse over the radio and confirm your licence status?

I would love to know if that would work, take into consideration how hard it is to get answers from them about a licence normally

G17

I love living in the country.


Typical 2AM lamping encounter with the local Gardaí....


"alright?"

"grand"

"any stir?"

"fox near Byrne's just past Doyle's lane"

"how's the Da?"

"grand"

"how's herself"

"grand"

"grand, don't work too hard now"

"no fear, good luck"

"oh, drop us in a rabbit if you get a nice one"

"grand"

:)

Terrier

Stopped twice in the last few weeks, first time was the local Sgt so no problem but for the fact he'd keep you talking for the night.

The second was a very keen Garda to say the least, in fairness I know my pulse number so he was happy enough to check that against the system and compared the details against my driving licence.

fish slapped

I always carry my licences with me out hunting or if I'm just driving any where in case I come across a new shop. its not to much to ask and if their in a suitable wallet there should be no hassle with water check out the wallets the english boys use for the fishing licences.

foxhunter

Always keep mine in the jeep it's never too far away from where im shooting.