Gun lisence

riflehunter77

To be honest lads I or the old fella never bring our lisence out its never been a problem down our way all the local gardai no us but you never no. A credit card like format would be handy..

Grizzly 45

As for arresting somone,well,I think a request to accompny the Garda to the station to help the Gardai in their enquiries is more the line there.Arrest implies a formal procedure of detention ,for a specific crime that has been comitted or is about to be comitted,and if it turns out that mr gunowner was very ligit,that could cost Min Aherne and Co in a wrongful arrest case.

Ditto for confiscating firearms..What happens if the Garda hasnt a clue about them ,tosses it into the squad car,and hypothecially it wasnt unloaded and his partner gets shot..,or as pointed out then, damage to the firearm in Garda custody...IE rust due to it not being cleaned or oiled.Who is responsible then???Could be an intresting legal conundrum.
One other point..

Maybe not the smartest thing to do keeping gun and liscense together in one container.God forbid your gun is nicked in slip and all.Somone now has your gun,liscense,possibly ammo,and the ability tobuy more or call around to your address to help themselves to more of your possesions .
Or actually impersonate you.After all,they have offical documentation with no photo on it,issued by the law of the land.Just one to consider on both sides of the law of this debate.Dont think the Gardai issue an APB to dealers as to names to watch out for whose liscense and gun was stolen...Maybe they do??Good work if they to so.But how long could somone go about the country buying up ammo before this is noticed?
There is no earthly reason that this liscense nowadays,[bar time,money and effort proably:rolleyes: ]cant be brought down to a credit card size,with your details ,mug shot and what guns you hold on it.Feck it! We are supposed to have this for our driving liscenses by now,and the technology would be not much different.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As for arresting somone,well,I think a request to accompny the Garda to the station to help the Gardai in their enquiries is more the line there.Arrest implies a formal procedure of detention ,for a specific crime that has been comitted or is about to be comitted,and if it turns out that mr gunowner was very ligit,that could cost Min Aherne and Co in a wrongful arrest case.

Nope. I know that everyone thinks that they're innocent until proven guilty and so on, but not under the 1990 Act. Or for that matter, under a few other parts of Irish law (like libel law for a start). The idea that the law is a set of rules that ensures just results simply does not apply here - the law is there to maintain public order in this case.

The simple fact of it is that the Garda could have arrested the hunter in question under both the 1925 Firearms Act as highlighted above, and the 1990 Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, because the hunter didn't have his licence with him. In the event, he didn't - he took the firearm and presumably he returned it when the hunter produced the licence at the station. Which is a case of the Garda cutting a shooter a break, whether or not we're clever enough to spot it.

Ditto for confiscating firearms..What happens if the Garda hasnt a clue about them ,tosses it into the squad car,and hypothecially it wasnt unloaded and his partner gets shot

Then hypothetically the hunter was wandering around with a loaded rifle and a closed bolt and frankly would be ethically and morally liable at least in part, whatever about the legal liability involved.

..,or as pointed out then, damage to the firearm in Garda custody...IE rust due to it not being cleaned or oiled.Who is responsible then???Could be an intresting legal conundrum.

No, it's tough cheese. You broke the law by not having your licence with you, the cops gave you a break, but because you didn't get down to the station that day to reclaim your rifle, there's rust. It's your fault, not the Garda's. Legally and ethically.

Maybe not the smartest thing to do keeping gun and liscense together in one container.God forbid your gun is nicked in slip and all.Somone now has your gun,liscense,possibly ammo,and the ability tobuy more or call around to your address to help themselves to more of your possesions .

As to inviting robbery, I doubt it. If they wanted firearms, they already have yours. If they wanted to rob a house, they'll go to the first empty one they see without an alarm - they know you're not likely to be an easy target and if I remember the Garda figures right, over 95% of all burglaries are just opportunistic crimes, easily prevented with a good set of locks and a house alarm (and you have one of those already, right?).

As to liability for whatever this thief does with your licence after he steals it, assuming you didn't leave it lying around in the pub, you're not liable - if someone tries to buy ammo with your licence, then that's their act, not yours. So long as you did your due diligence on keeping it secure in the first place, it's not your problem, it's the dealer's and the Gardai's.

There is no earthly reason that this liscense nowadays,[bar time,money and effort proably:rolleyes: ]cant be brought down to a credit card size,with your details ,mug shot and what guns you hold on it.Feck it! We are supposed to have this for our driving liscenses by now,and the technology would be not much different.

Agreed, in full. Apart from anything else, it'd be nice not to have police/customs in other states look at you funny when you produce a dog-eared half-sheet of computer printout with a stamp on it instead of a passport-style document. Besides, the europass is printed here - why not just use that mechanism? No extra equipment needed...

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

Nope. I know that everyone thinks that they're innocent until proven guilty and so on, but not under the 1990 Act. Or for that matter, under a few other parts of Irish law (like libel law for a start). The idea that the law is a set of rules that ensures just results simply does not apply here - the law is there to maintain public order in this case.

The simple fact of it is that the Garda could have arrested the hunter in question under both the 1925 Firearms Act as highlighted above, and the 1990 Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act, because the hunter didn't have his licence with him. In the event, he didn't - he took the firearm and presumably he returned it when the hunter produced the licence at the station. Which is a case of the Garda cutting a shooter a break, whether or not we're clever enough to spot it.

Then hypothetically the hunter was wandering around with a loaded rifle and a closed bolt and frankly would be ethically and morally liable at least in part, whatever about the legal liability involved.

No, it's tough cheese. You broke the law by not having your licence with you, the cops gave you a break, but because you didn't get down to the station that day to reclaim your rifle, there's rust. It's your fault, not the Garda's. Legally and ethically.

As to inviting robbery, I doubt it. If they wanted firearms, they already have yours. If they wanted to rob a house, they'll go to the first empty one they see without an alarm - they know you're not likely to be an easy target and if I remember the Garda figures right, over 95% of all burglaries are just opportunistic crimes, easily prevented with a good set of locks and a house alarm (and you have one of those already, right?).

As to liability for whatever this thief does with your licence after he steals it, assuming you didn't leave it lying around in the pub, you're not liable - if someone tries to buy ammo with your licence, then that's their act, not yours. So long as you did your due diligence on keeping it secure in the first place, it's not your problem, it's the dealer's and the Gardai's.

Agreed, in full. Apart from anything else, it'd be nice not to have police/customs in other states look at you funny when you produce a dog-eared half-sheet of computer printout with a stamp on it instead of a passport-style document. Besides, the europass is printed here - why not just use that mechanism? No extra equipment needed...

Sparks at this point I have to come in again, you are totally incorrect in your asertion that the gent could have been arrested under the 1925 or the 1990 Firearms acts, the Garda must be satisfied that a breach of the firearms legislation has taken place, you are scare mongering and totally incorrect to put forward the view that the individual could have been arrested for simply not producing a firearms certificate.

Any Garda worth his salt must take into consideration the circumstances and clearly in this case no criminal intent could or would gave been suspected, in my view the Garda was just being bloody minded and took the gun to piss the indivudual off as has happened so many times in the past.

The facts are clear unless a breach of the legislation is reasonably determined the Garda can neither take the gun or arrest the individual so lets just drop it, your knowledge of the legislation is scant intrepretion is incorrect and is just causing confusioin so it should be dropped.

We would all be more interested to know if the individual got his firearm back and what was actually said to him when he went to collect the firearm, enough of the armchair barrister act.

macadam

Yes always , one in the jacket and one in the jeep , both copies.
Partner does the same.


You never know when you will be stopped , and its a lot easier to explain why theres two guns on the back seat and maybe 50 cartridges, the two of us dressed in full military regalia.

The dog in the trailer might be a bit of a give away, but the garda could be a city slicker from dublin 4 or somewhere like Foxrock .

Was always required up here along the border, but never had to show the licence, yet.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I used to carry mine all the time, I misplaced it in one of my jackets once and I couldn't find it for months, careless I know, but being the forgetful type I now keep it at home all the time. I used to keep mine in my car, but since the land I shoot on is right behind my house. I thought about it and it made more sence to keep it at home. Car gets stolen, or broken into and I could be in a spot of bother. I guess when you present your licence at the station and give your reason for not carrying your licence, you may get your fire arm back?

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Sparks at this point I have to come in again, you are totally incorrect in your asertion that the gent could have been arrested under the 1925 or the 1990 Firearms acts, the Garda must be satisfied that a breach of the firearms legislation has taken place, you are scare mongering and totally incorrect to put forward the view that the individual could have been arrested for simply not producing a firearms certificate.

I'm not scaremongering Bob, I'm simply pointing out that it's there in the 1925 Act (which you yourself quoted) and in the 1990 Act. In black and white. Those acts were drafted just after a civil war and in the middle of the Troubles, and the drafters were not aiming to draft bills that protected the individual shooter from inconvenience, they were drafting bills to protect the public, and they were most assuredly not thinking of legitimate target shooters and hunters when they drafted those bills, but of another threat entirely; and that licence, that little bit of paper, is your protection from those laws (and you do need protection from them because of the breadth of powers they grant the Gardai). If you produce your licence, that's the lawful authority the 1990 act speaks of and the Garda cannot reasonably arrest you, nor can he do so under the 1925 act if you produce the licence. In both cases, he has no basis for an arrest. If, however, you don't have the licence with you, the Garda is perfectly entitled under two seperate acts to arrest you. That's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of what is written in black and white in the law. There's no interpretation involved here. It is exceptionally clearly written by the standards of Irish law.

Any Garda worth his salt must take into consideration the circumstances and clearly in this case no criminal intent could or would gave been suspected

Really? The Garda knew the original hunter, did he? I missed that bit of information in the original post. Did the Garda know anything about firearms? About hunting? About where hunters in that area hunt, and for what quarry, and what gun clubs own the rights to the land and whether the hunter in question was a member of the appropriate club, if any, or if he had permission to hunt there if he the rights weren't held by a club? All that information is checked when the licence is granted (or is meant to be) and that's what the licence tells the Garda in the field - that you are authorized (by someone who had time to investigate more fully) to be there with a firearm doing what you're doing. If you don't have that bit of paper, then it is utterly unreasonable to expect the Garda to "just know" everything's okay. If you could expect the Garda to "just know" that kind of information, why would we need licences at all? Not to mention, you're assuming that the Garda's sole duty is to serve your interests - which is utterly untrue, he's there to safeguard public safety and the peace - ie. everyone else, not you.

in my view the Garda was just being bloody minded and took the gun to piss the indivudual off as has happened so many times in the past.

And in my view, the hunter screwed the pooch by not carrying his licence with him and the Garda let him off lightly, and you're now moaning that the Gardai are in fact persecuting him, which is just unsupported by the facts as they've been presented and the law as it's written.

And frankly, to suggest anything else - especially to suggest the Garda got it wrong and was just being bloodyminded and that you could simply bluster your way out of such a situation, which is what you're implying - is highly irresponsible, and is liable to drop someone else in it on a dark night out in the field while you're still there in your armchair. :mad:

greenpeter

The gun was taken because the owner was not carring his licence along with the gun. He was on his way from the hunting ground. It was in a case on in the back seat of his pickup. They came across a check point and were asked where they were coming from and explained what they were doing (shooting foxes on gun club ground). He was asked had he his licence for the gun with him and explained that it was at home, so the garda took the gun until he brought the licence to the station. I never ever bring my licence with me and i'm sure there is lots more out there who dont either but i know i will from now on.

rrpc

This is the bit in the firearms act that Sparks is referring to and everyone seems to miss (probably because the preceeding subsections talk about giving your name and address if you don't have your license).

22(4) In addition to any other powers conferred on him under this Act or otherwise, any member of the Garda Síochána may stop and search and may also arrest without warrant any person whom he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, and may search any such person, and, whether arresting him or not, may seize and detain any firearm or ammunition in his possession or used or carried by him.

Bits highlighted basically to show what the Garda can do and how he can do it.

All he has to do is 'believe' you're contravening any part of the firearms act. That's any part, not just section 2.

Carrying your license is a really good idea

Grizzly 45

As to inviting robbery, I doubt it. If they wanted firearms, they already have yours. If they wanted to rob a house, they'll go to the first empty one they see without an alarm - they know you're not likely to be an easy target and if I remember the Garda figures right, over 95% of all burglaries are just opportunistic crimes, easily prevented with a good set of locks and a house alarm (and you have one of those already, right?).

Just using it hypothecially Sparks,it certainly is a possibility still.After all they do have your gun to help along with the robbery.And know where there might be more firearms now to rob.

.Again this will be intresting as well with a firearm,as confiscating one will then shift the burden of securing and proving safe onto the Garda.Now,I dunno,but do regular Gardai now get training in being able to check firearms for a loaded unloaded safe condition???
After all,once they have grabbed it,and confiscated it,they are now responsible for it's safe transport and storage and seeing that it is unloaded.YOU have no more say,untill you show up with your tatty[by now] piece of paper.
Intrestingly in the UK,if a normal police officer did this,he would/could be charged with being in possesion of an unlawful firearm.

Agreed, in full. Apart from anything else, it'd be nice not to have police/customs in other states look at you funny when you produce a dog-eared half-sheet of computer printout with a stamp on it instead of a passport-style document. Besides, the europass is printed here - why not just use that mechanism? No extra equipment needed...

[/QUOTE]
FACT!

macadam

Grizzly,

If it takes 10-12 weeks to print that tatty piece of paper ,(which i am waiting for) it will take them forever to print a credit card format.

Just look at the driving licence for fork sake, did you ever see such a yolk
the states that just recently joined the EU have all there EU licences and passports on ID cards with all relevant information and good knows how much more stored on that black strip.

it would suit Mr Ahern to get the finger out.

You know the Phrase PADDY LAST

bunny shooter

To be arrested, with or without warrant, you have to have committed an arrestable offence. eg tresspass isn't an arrestable offence. However, tresspass and damaging property to gain access (eg door, padlock etc) is an arrestable offence. The damage is deemed to be criminal damage, which is an arrestable offence. That is why Gardai investigating burgalry might wait to catch burglar leaving premises with your possessions rather than catch him in your house with none of your possessions. When he has left your house with your possessions that is theft which is an arrestable offence whereas if he is in your house with none of your possessions on his person then he is simply trespassing, which is not an arrestable offence, unless he had forced entry which means criminal damage and would mean he could be arrested for the criminal damage.

Therefore, if you have a firearm and/or ammo on your person and no licence on your person for it the Garda could quite reasonably assume you are not the licenced to have it and thereby arrest you under any of the legislation above. Of course on production of the correct paperwork you would be de-arrested as you would have proven your innocence.

Every citizen in the country has a power of arrest. Gardai have a 'warrant' issued by State which gives them powers of arrest. I believe certain members of Social Security staff have a 'warrant' as do fishery protection officers, wildlife rangers and court appoint "water balifs" in fishing clubs.

'Ordinary' citizens have the right to arrest people too. It is a "citizens arrest". The over-riding factor is that to be arrested by anyone you must have committed or be in the process of committing or about to commit or intend to commit an arrestable offence. For the record citizens arrests are a legal minefield.

Gardai do not need firearms licences to have firearms in their possession unlike ordinary citizens. Therefore, an ordinary citizen could not impound a firearm they do not hold a licence for. A land owner could not make a citizens arrest of someone on their property with a firearm as even though it is armed trespass which is an arrestable offence if they make a citizens arrest of the the trespasser they would be in illegal possession of the arrested persons firearm. Isn't the law great

So would you rather be arrested (by Gardai presumably) and later produce cert? Have firearm impounded and later produce cert? Carry cert in some way with you and prob have no hassle? I know which I prefer.

Grizzly 45

Fair enuff,if the law states that we must carry our certs,so be it.Dunno how they are going to read some of mine then.My pistol cert is already looking like a much abused bit of paper and thats just from traveling in my wallet.God knows what the shotgun cert will look like after me falling into the odd bog hole which happens at least twice in the shooting season.
Have to say the ol green bit of paper FAC was a lot stronger.:rolleyes:

Sparks

Just stick them in a zip-loc baggie Grizzly, they'll be fine.

kay 9

just a question, whats the procedure if licence gets misplaced or lost??
Thanks lads

Trojan911

kay 9 wrote: »

just a question, whats the procedure if licence gets misplaced or lost??
Thanks lads

Report it lost or stolen to your local cop shop for starters. They will advise after that.

deerhunter1

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

4 only comes into play when "he believes to be in possession of or to be using or carrying a firearm or ammunition in contravention of any of the provisions of this Act, "

It would be more reasonable for the Gardai to consider the circumstances of the individual in posession of the firearm, in the case cited it is clear that this was a hunter in the field with all the appropriate kit, circumstances would be different if the car was stopped in the middle of Limerick with balaclavas in the boot.................

Common sense should prevail in the case of the Gardai and they are too quick to take posession of firearms clearly knowing that no wrong doing has taken place, it would not be unreasonable for the individual to receive an explanation for the removal of personal property when clearly there was no need for it. As I said a simple radio check would determine the validity of the name and address given and would pull up the pulse Id of the individual also.

The hassle of getting a gun taken and having to recover it is yet again another example of the Gardai treating lawful gun ownership with contempt.

In this case it would be my firm position that the Garda who took posession of the firearm should be asked to account for his action and state the circumstances in which he felt that it was necessary to take posession of the firearm. The more we let these incidents occur more they will occur, seems to me that it is another example of the Gardai making it up as they go along............................

Why mention Limerick ?