Words fail me..

scruff321

DSB wrote: »

There is plenty of quality football played in the LOI, although admittedly nowhere near the standard of the Premiership. But considering we live in a different country, would it not be a better idea to work together to improve what we have, than to just settle for games on TV, and the odd weekend trip over. You genuinely don't know what you're missing out on.

You can view it as a matter of product quality, but being a supporter isn't about picking the best product, or economising for value for money by picking the team that mixes the best price with the best quality. And I don't for a second believe that you believe that either, which makes the contempt with which the LOI is treated especially weird.

Irish people will support Chelsea or Blackburn who play disgusting boring football, but will look down on their own national league. And it seems the quality of football argument gos out the window if the club gos into a horrible quality of football from a top 1, ie. the Leeds scenario. I understand theres the affection and ties that are there already, but its still a weird one, because it illustrates that the quality of football ISN'T actually the key factor in support of a football club, because people will willingly sacrifice it for affection and the feeling of belonging, if changing situations necessitate it.

chelsea are playing brilliant football this season ftw but i see what your saying there is some very good footballers in the LOI you just have to look at the amount of them been picked off by English clubs,i was disappointed to see Pat mcCourt go and keith Fahey will be a big loss to the league. if there was a team close by to me or i had a car i would start supporting someone,actually i live near enough to tallaght so i suppose rovers would be an option but i know a few rovers fans (and bohs) and from what ive seen espically of the rovers crowd there a pack of gob****es!nevertheless il give shamrock rovers a chance when they move up there in the new year :cool:

DSB

scruff321 wrote: »

chelsea are playing brilliant football this season ftw but i see what your saying there is some very good footballers in the LOI you just have to look at the amount of them been picked off by English clubs,i was disappointed to see Pat mcCourt go and keith Fahey will be a big loss to the league. if there was a team close by to me or i had a car i would start supporting someone,actually i live near enough to tallaght so i suppose rovers would be an option but i know a few rovers fans (and bohs) and from what ive seen espically of the rovers crowd there a pack of gob****es!nevertheless il give shamrock rovers a chance when they move up there in the new year :cool:

Do. Ya wouldn't let a few dopes ruin you going to the cinema or shopping in town so don't let it ruin you getting into this.

themont85

Gavin shels wrote: »

And there's only 3 ways I can think of that quality being there:
1. People get off their barstools
2. Franchises
3. Let Sky rape us like they done to the EPL in the early 90's.





So you would proprose a Leinster FC, Munster FC, Ulster FC and Connaught FC, all franchised regional teams. And me like most other LoI fans will tell you and anyone who backs that idea to go crawl back under that rock of your's with you Sky Sports, inflatable tri-colour hammer, lephrecan outfit and along with your chosen foreign team's jersey(ies).

Fair enough, but don't expect your league to grow in its current format or by lecturing people. I do none of the things which you stereotyped me as doing like being on a 'barstool'. I prefer rugby tbh but like soccer and was just pointing out that they manage to have a high standard in their sport and thus attract fans for the entertainment value. Human beings are fickle by and large and need to be entertained to part with cash plus time. THe LoI doesn't provide that but instead wastes money on full time pros all with the dream of getting past the 3rd round of the CL.

Oh and Sky Sports will never 'rape' the league of ireland like they did in England. Over there they had a good standard of football pre 1992 unlike here right now, with plenty of fans and a great potential market. The LoI has none of the aforementioned 3. The debate over what Sky has done to football in England is another matter altogether but to 'rape' English football it hasn't.

themont85

DSB wrote: »

Do. Ya wouldn't let a few dopes ruin you going to the cinema or shopping in town so don't let it ruin you getting into this.

Ye probably because if they went to the cinema or shopping they would be getting a decent product.

DSB

themont85 wrote: »

Ye probably because if they went to the cinema or shopping they would be getting a decent product.

Supporting a football club is not purchasing a product, anyone who views it as so, does not support a football club.

themont85

DSB wrote: »

Supporting a football club is not purchasing a product, anyone who views it as so, does not support a football club.

The usual argument. This may be true in your eyes but if thats the case a great many people 'don't support football clubs'. Face facts, a lot of people watch football to be entertained. And by entertained that means many things from the quality of football, presentation of it and the general match day feel. Thats a major reason why the EPL is popular here. People are fickle by nature, if the LoI wants higher attendences and to maybe outshine the EPL in Ireland its administrators and its fans will have to put a better presentation of itself than just, 'come on support your local team, have some pride'. For the LoI if it wants more 'fans' then it needs to treat people as potential customers and make their product(ie football and everything surrounding that) more attractive. Of course imo it is almost impossible for them to make the crucial compoment the football good enough in its current guise.

DSB

themont85 wrote: »

The usual argument. This may be true in your eyes but if thats the case a great many people 'don't support football clubs'. Face facts, a lot of people watch football to be entertained. And by entertained that means many things from the quality of football, presentation of it and the general match day feel. Thats a major reason why the EPL is popular here. People are fickle by nature, if the LoI wants higher attendences and to maybe outshine the EPL in Ireland its administrators and its fans will have to put a better presentation of itself than just, 'come on support your local team, have some pride'. For the LoI if it wants more 'fans' then it needs to treat people as potential customers and make their product(ie football and everything surrounding that) more attractive. Of course imo it is almost impossible for them to make the crucial compoment the football good enough in its current guise.

Obviously I agree with you that what you're saying is true, I'm not debating that, but I find that all a bit pathetic. And I don't feel that way about the EPL in general. Just a certain few clubs.

Töpher

themont85 wrote: »

I prefer rugby tbh but like soccer and was just pointing out that they manage to have a high standard in their sport and thus attract fans for the entertainment value. Human beings are fickle by and large and need to be entertained to part with cash plus time. THe LoI doesn't provide that but instead wastes money on full time pros all with the dream of getting past the 3rd round of the CL.

First division this year, tbh!

CiaranC

themont85 wrote: »

Ye probably because if they went to the cinema or shopping they would be getting a decent product.

Football is not a "product". any more than Paddy from Mullaghduff, the lifelong Man Utd supporter is a "football fan".

Irish plastics are a laughing stock to real Irish football fans and to real English football fans alike.

Go take a look on the UK football websites to see what English fans think of plastic paddy the daytripper.

Martin Cullen is a clown of the highest order. If he had said what he said as Minister for Sport in Italy he'd have to resign.

Zebra3

themont85 wrote: »

The usual argument. This may be true in your eyes but if thats the case a great many people 'don't support football clubs'. Face facts, a lot of people watch football to be entertained. And by entertained that means many things from the quality of football, presentation of it and the general match day feel. Thats a major reason why the EPL is popular here. People are fickle by nature, if the LoI wants higher attendences and to maybe outshine the EPL in Ireland its administrators and its fans will have to put a better presentation of itself than just, 'come on support your local team, have some pride'. For the LoI if it wants more 'fans' then it needs to treat people as potential customers and make their product(ie football and everything surrounding that) more attractive. Of course imo it is almost impossible for them to make the crucial compoment the football good enough in its current guise.

That's very true in the case of those who just watch football on tv.

themont85

CiaranC wrote: »

Football is not a "product". any more than Paddy from Mullaghduff, the lifelong Man Utd supporter is a "football fan".

Irish plastics are a laughing stock to real Irish football fans and to real English football fans alike.

Go take a look on the UK football websites to see what English fans think of plastic paddy the daytripper.

Martin Cullen is a clown of the highest order. If he had said what he said as Minister for Sport in Italy he'd have to resign.

Stop being delusional, for a football club if they want fans they have to sell themselves as a 'product'. Of course there is far more loyalty involved but for the extra people who bring in the crucial revenue, the quality is so important. Look at Leeds, a few years ago packed to the seems every week, now its very easy to get a ticket because the quality has dropped. Again as I said human beings are fickle. Telling people to be 'proper' fans wont get bums on seats.

Martin Cullen is a clown and his comments misguided but to keep putting out the same argument-basically if your a real fan you'll go to watch sub standard play is deeply flawed and as misguided as Cullen's comments.

Pure Cork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU
"I'll admit I don't quite follow how you, a man who lives over 200 miles away from the home ground of your chosen team, can claim some deep attachment to a bunch of overpaid hired hands from all four corners of the globe who temporarily wear the same coloured shirt as you're currently wearing, but then maybe I'm a bit slow, it must be brain damage from all that boxing I did in Raging Bull"

OPENROAD

CiaranC wrote: »

Irish plastics are a laughing stock to real Irish football fans and to real English football fans alike.

Go take a look on the UK football websites to see what English fans think of plastic paddy the daytripper.

Really?, never been my experience

Jazzy

CiaranC wrote: »

Football is not a "product". any more than Paddy from Mullaghduff, the lifelong Man Utd supporter is a "football fan".

Irish plastics are a laughing stock to real Irish football fans and to real English football fans alike.

Go take a look on the UK football websites to see what English fans think of plastic paddy the daytripper.

Martin Cullen is a clown of the highest order. If he had said what he said as Minister for Sport in Italy he'd have to resign.

ive said it once and ill say it again

you're so football

SligoBrewer

CiaranC wrote: »

Irish plastics are a laughing stock to real Irish football fans and to real English football fans alike.

Go take a look on the UK football websites to see what English fans think of plastic paddy the daytripper.
.

Link?

bobbysands81

vote4pedro wrote: »

Because the rubbish you come out with makes me suggest you would. That comment about sectarianism in Glasgow (in combination with your username) I find toe-curlingly embarassing.

So you make a generic accusation ("Because the rubbish you come out with makes me suggest you would.") AFTER I put specific points to you, which you ignore, and instead focus on my username - which is a breach of the rules on here.

What is it about the comment on sectarianism that you don't understand?

stovelid

bobbysands81 wrote: »

What is it about the comment on sectarianism that you don't understand?

I would hazard a guess that it's not the sectarianism that he finds embarrassing, rather the fact that you're not a Glaswegian. Let alone an 'opressed' one. Similar to the idiocy of getting behind FC St Pauli on some sort of anti-fascist tip.

I abhor the treatment of Palestine but I don't have to support their national team.

Zebra3

themont85 wrote: »

Stop being delusional, for a football club if they want fans they have to sell themselves as a 'product'.

Show me one club that sells itself to fans as a product.

themont85 wrote: »

Martin Cullen is a clown

True.

Unearthly

OPENROAD wrote: »

Really?, never been my experience

I think you need to realise when people are talking sh-it and know it, they know they have to make up stuff up to back up their lies

SectionF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU

Pure Cork wrote: »

"I'll admit I don't quite follow how you, a man who lives over 200 miles away from the home ground of your chosen team, can claim some deep attachment to a bunch of overpaid hired hands from all four corners of the globe who temporarily wear the same coloured shirt as you're currently wearing, but then maybe I'm a bit slow, it must be brain damage from all that boxing I did in Raging Bull"

Thanks PC -- I've been looking for that sketch online for ages! Definitely going in the collection...

DSB

Haha really does put it all in perspective.

bobbysands81

stovelid wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that it's not the sectarianism that he finds embarrassing, rather the fact that you're not a Glaswegian. Let alone an 'opressed' one. Similar to the idiocy of getting behind FC St Pauli on some sort of anti-fascist tip.

I abhor the treatment of Palestine but I don't have to support their national team.

...and who am I to tell you that you should support Palestine's Soccer team?

So people who are not black are not meant to speak out about racism then?

Your logic is askew.

OPENROAD

Unearthly wrote: »

I think you need to realise when people are talking sh-it and know it, they know they have to make up stuff up to back up their lies

I know that

themont85

Zebra3 wrote: »

Show me one club that sells itself to fans as a product.

Every reputable club has to sell itself as a product, such as Man Utd-stadium, quality of player, merchandise, media presence. Nice stadiums, big signings, crest, shirt ect. The quality of football is an element of the product as is the teams league position(however both of these are at the mercy of outside factors), that is why if it is poor the manager gets sacked to rectify the situation. You are looking at the word 'product' through the eyes of a football fan who doesn't believe that it should be treated as such, of which there are a good few of you as evidenced by attendences at underperforming teams/poor teams, however for many it is an entertainment product and as such if the product is poor they will not go.

bobbysands81

Zebra3 wrote: »

Show me one club that sells itself to fans as a product.

I'll make it easier... show me one club that doesn't.

bobbysands81

Originally Posted by Pure Cork

"I'll admit I don't quite follow how you, a man who lives over 200 miles away from the home ground of your chosen team, can claim some deep attachment to a bunch of overpaid hired hands from all four corners of the globe who temporarily wear the same coloured shirt as you're currently wearing, but then maybe I'm a bit slow, it must be brain damage from all that boxing I did in Raging Bull"



How does the above differ to LoI teams???

I mean big matches in the LoI get bigger crowds than smaller matches - right? If so that means that there are fairweather fans in LoI football as well as fairweather fans who follow teams in other countries as well. Are they subject to your wrath as well? (What about the fella (I think it's on this thread) who lives in Mayo and who has been told to support Sligo - would he be "allowed" to claim a deep attachment to his chosen team xx miles away???) After all these are fellas that only go to a few games a year... or is it ok cos the team is Irish? Very parochial mindset. Also is an LoI team thought of less if they have foreign paid players as is alluded to above?

So are you only a pure LoI fan if your team is amateur, all players are local, you live close to the ground and go to every single match?

What is it about LoI fans that you don't like fans supporting teams in another country? Is it just jealousy? Is a LoI fan allowed to have a second team from a different country that they can go and watch? Personally I don't really understand how an Irishman or woman can have an affinity with say Chelsea... but if they want to then that's their right, who the hell am I to say they can't do it? I might wonder why they do do it but I wouldn't tell they they can't - what makes you guys so special that you feel you can pass judgement?

If largest sporting attendances are taken into account in this country every year the LoI comes about 7th in the list of largest attendances. By and large Irish people do not like following LoI football... for whatever reasons I really don't know but it's their choice and bickering as you do constantly on this site is only serving to turn people away from LoI soccer, not towards it.

I find it disconcerting that LoI fans are the moral watchdogs forever telling people who should support what team.

Pure Cork

themont85 wrote: »

Every reputable club has to sell itself as a product, such as Man Utd-stadium, quality of player, merchandise, media presence. Nice stadiums, big signings, crest, shirt ect. The quality of football is an element of the product as is the teams league position(however both of these are at the mercy of outside factors), that is why if it is poor the manager gets sacked to rectify the situation. You are looking at the word 'product' through the eyes of a football fan who doesn't believe that it should be treated as such, of which there are a good few of you as evidenced by attendences at underperforming teams/poor teams, however for many it is an entertainment product and as such if the product is poor they will not go.

For purists, football is not a product, just like GAA mightn't be considered a product. For a lot of people football is a product, it is sports entertainment, just like WWE.

Pure Cork

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I mean big matches in the LoI get bigger crowds than smaller matches - right? If so that means that there are fairweather fans in LoI football as well as fairweather fans who follow teams in other countries as well. Are they subject to your wrath as well? (What about the fella (I think it's on this thread) who lives in Mayo and who has been told to support Sligo - would he be "allowed" to claim a deep attachment to his chosen team xx miles away???) After all these are fellas that only go to a few games a year... or is it ok cos the team is Irish? Very parochial mindset.

All forms of sport have fairweather fans, and it is annoying that for example cup finals can sell out, but only a fraction of those people would be there for a league game. In contrast, there are also lots of people that can't make every game due to commitments/personal circumstances/etc.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Also is an LoI team thought of less if they have foreign paid players as is alluded to above?

No. However, there aren't a lot of foreign players in the LOI, which is something to be proud about in my opinion, and it aids the development of Irish players.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So are you only a pure LoI fan if your team is amateur, all players are local, you live close to the ground and go to every single match?

Most LOI clubs aren't amateur. Most LOI clubs will have quite a few local players. Lots of people can't live close to home due to personal circumstances/jobs. If I emigrated in the morning to work abroad, I'm still a Corkonian, and would support City but wouldn't be able to make as many games as I do now. Again, personal circumstances can prevent people from attending as many games as they'd like. Fairweather fans are frustrating.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

What is it about LoI fans that you don't like fans supporting teams in another country? Is it just jealousy? Is a LoI fan allowed to have a second team from a different country that they can go and watch?

Most LOI fans have an issue with people ignoring the league while claiming allegiance to foreign clubs. I'm sure there are lots of LOI fans who support foreign clubs too. Personally, the only foreign team I support is Bologna, because there is a link between the two sets of fans.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Personally I don't really understand how an Irishman or woman can have an affinity with say Chelsea... but if they want to then that's their right, who the hell am I to say they can't do it? I might wonder why they do do it but I wouldn't tell they they can't - what makes you guys so special that you feel you can pass judgement?

It's very easy to understand how Irish people can have an affinity with Chelsea. They're successful and are very good at marketing their sports entertainment product to consumers. Everyone has opinions.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

bickering as you do constantly on this site is only serving to turn people away from LoI soccer, not towards it.

People who don't come to games are put off going to games because of some people on the internet?

stovelid

themont85 wrote: »

Every reputable club has to sell itself as a product, such as Man Utd-stadium, quality of player, merchandise, media presence. Nice stadiums, big signings, crest, shirt ect. The quality of football is an element of the product as is the teams league position(however both of these are at the mercy of outside factors), that is why if it is poor the manager gets sacked to rectify the situation. You are looking at the word 'product' through the eyes of a football fan who doesn't believe that it should be treated as such, of which there are a good few of you as evidenced by attendences at underperforming teams/poor teams, however for many it is an entertainment product and as such if the product is poor they will not go.

This forum should be right up your street.

This one is for football supporters.

CiaranC

Pure Cork wrote: »

For purists, football is not a product, just like GAA mightn't be considered a product. For a lot of people football is a product, it is sports entertainment, just like WWE.

Truer words never spoken.

The majority of "football fans" in Ireland see the sport as an "entertainment product".

Try standing in the freezing cold and the rain, watching your team losing 5-0 at home and headed for yet another trophyless season and see if it feels like an "entertainment product".

Yet thats what real fans do, all over the world, clinging to the tiny hope that one day, maybe, just maybe, you might know the joy of winning something again, and know that you were there through the worst days, making it all the sweeter.

Jazzy

omg thats CiaranC, hes so f**kin football

CiaranC

Jazzy wrote: »

omg thats CiaranC, hes so f**kin football

Im more football than you

Now youre getting it

stovelid

Jazzy wrote: »

omg thats CiaranC, hes so f**kin football

In fairness, he's describing something that is completely normal and routine for the large majority of football fans around the world, including the local supporters of your own clubs.

LuckyLloyd

CiaranC wrote: »

Im more football than you

Now youre getting it

lol, but you're not.

SectionF

bobbysands81 wrote: »

What is it about LoI fans that you don't like fans supporting teams in another country? Is it just jealousy? Is a LoI fan allowed to have a second team from a different country that they can go and watch? Personally I don't really understand how an Irishman or woman can have an affinity with say Chelsea... but if they want to then that's their right, who the hell am I to say they can't do it? I might wonder why they do do it but I wouldn't tell they they can't - what makes you guys so special that you feel you can pass judgement?

I'd say the vast majority of LoI fans also follow a team in another country.

It's with the determined not supporting a team in one's own country that the problem lies.

I don't see anyone here demanding that following Chelsea (for heaven's sake) be outlawed, but people have every right to question it, as with all-or-nothing support pledged to Liverpool, ManU, Celtic and other leading British brands. If you can't take a bit of criticism on that basis then maybe you should choose a gentler, more consumer-friendly sport.

PS: what did you and the rest of your British football devotees think of the clip? Good, innit?

scruff321

Ive said on previous postings here on this topic that the reason i dont support a LOI team is there isnt any in my locality (well im gonna test the water with Rovers in Feb) but tbh,i dont drive have a number of commitments myself including playing for my own local team, so i pretty much just watch any football thats on tele although i do support a prem team i do follow la ligue aswell..out of curiousity do many of you LOI teams play for your local football team?

themont85

stovelid wrote: »

This forum should be right up your street.

This one is for football supporters.

Hilarious, are you denying that good business practice doesn't get fair weather fans on seats?! Seriousely?! When attracting these fairweather fans, that is the way a CEO or board of a club would look at it. I already splashed Leeds as an example, unfortunately they have dropped down the ladder and a certain percentage of fans has gone with them. Why? Because the football quality has dropped and their not as 'glamorous' to go see i.e their product has gone downhill. Do you not like the word 'product'? Are any business terms too hard for the LoI? If so then the league and proffesional football will continue to stutter.

You may be a 'real' football and not like describing football as even a little to do with business. We're not all as great as you, a fan willing to stand there and watch sub standard play in crap stadiums all for the love of the game and a passion for your local team. I've said it once and i'll say it again-Human beings are fickle!

The reason 'proffesional' and football in general in this country is so bad is because the FAI and the LoI have had an aversion to any sort of business practice for years. Seemingly the very fans who bitch and moan about them are just as bad.

LoI fans don't keep moaning about poor attendences and crap help from administrators if you keep banging the same old drum about 'passion' ect. Blah blah blah, nothing succesful has ever come from it.

pablomakaveli

themont85 wrote: »

Hilarious, are you denying that good business practice doesn't get fair weather fans on seats?! Seriousely?! When attracting these fairweather fans, that is the way a CEO or board of a club would look at it. I already splashed Leeds as an example, unfortunately they have dropped down the ladder and a certain percentage of fans has gone with them. Why? Because the football quality has dropped and their not as 'glamorous' to go see i.e their product has gone downhill. Do you not like the word 'product'? Are any business terms too hard for the LoI? If so then the league and proffesional football will continue to stutter.

You may be a 'real' football and not like describing football as even a little to do with business. We're not all as great as you, a fan willing to stand there and watch sub standard play in crap stadiums all for the love of the game and a passion for your local team. I've said it once and i'll say it again-Human beings are fickle!

The reason 'proffesional' and football in general in this country is so bad is because the FAI and the LoI have had an aversion to any sort of business practice for years. Seemingly the very fans who bitch and moan about them are just as bad.

LoI fans don't keep moaning about poor attendences and crap help from administrators if you keep banging the same old drum about 'passion' ect. Blah blah blah, nothing succesful has ever come from it.

I'd agree with you when you say a club needs some business pratices as this is common with any club even in the LOI. It's when that club becomes more of a business than a football club the problem arises.

Obviously good business practice will draw new fans but a club will need to instill passion for the club in those fans to have them coming back and to become genuine supporters of the club. A club that is purely like a business won't instill passion like a club that is a football club before it is a business.

Gavin "shels"

themont85 wrote: »

LoI fans don't keep moaning about poor attendences and crap help from administrators if you keep banging the same old drum about 'passion' ect. Blah blah blah, nothing succesful has ever come from it.

So how do you suggest making LoI more attractive for ignorant barstoolers? Take into account the current economic situation, the few euro's the FAI provide and the poor attendences.

I can't wait to see what your answer will be, by the way letting Sky rape us because of our incompentent fools in the FAI won't work like it did in England.:pac:

SectionF

themont85 wrote: »

Why? Because the football quality has dropped and their not as 'glamorous' to go see i.e their product has gone downhill. Do you not like the word 'product'? Are any business terms too hard for the LoI? If so then the league and proffesional football will continue to stutter.

If I were looking for good business practice I wouldn't start in football in the first place. Of course business is a critical component, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all.
One would have thought that lesson had been learned with the general stutters in the business system over recent months. People of a business-is-all bent are fond of lecturing others about realities. But the basic reality is that, regardless of the best efforts of Rupert Murdoch and his ilk, football still is football, and football is a sport.

Gavin "shels"

OPENROAD wrote: »

What do you suggest they do to get more supporters in?

Well there's not much more that can be done:

1) TV, radio and newspaper ad's are/have been done.
2) CPO's.
3) European football (which has proven people can get to matches but rarely come back).
4) Much better quality football.

The list could probably go on. And on the facilities arguement that's been brought up, look at Bohs, Drogs and Finn Harps who are all planning on moving into state of the art stadiums, they all have a common trend, and that's that they're all financially f**ked and/or have ended up in court over it.

themont85

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'd agree with you when you say a club needs some business pratices as this is common with any club even in the LOI. It's when that club becomes more of a business than a football club the problem arises.

Obviously good business practice will draw new fans but a club will need to instill passion for the club in those fans to have them coming back and to become genuine supporters of the club. A club that is purely like a business won't instill passion like a club that is a football club before it is a business.

A lot of people say that man utd is a commercial club who treats its fans as customers. Let me hypothosie, well if this year man utd went flat broke and got relegated they would obviousely see a drop of in the number of fans. However, unlike a lot of other clubs due to their success they have a great number of fans-many of whom started because they saw them on the telly younger and now consider themselves passionate man utd fans and have bought into the ethos of the team. No disrespect but by and large that would be a lot on Boards.ie. I have no doubt that 99.9% of you would support them if they went down a few pegs. The same is true of all fans on here from Newcastle to Everton, even with smaller numbers. Why did you guys start supporting them? 3 major reasons really imo-your dad, their success and seeing them on the telly. A club like United is fashionable to support when your 8 years old. Over time that can develop into a real passion for them. In my eyes thats a well run business like football club developing 'passionate' fans outside of the usual paramerters like your locality.

Listen im not all for business here. The great thing about football as opposed to a different more 'normal' product is that people develop genuine affinity with a team through thick or thin and their will always be fans. However, the strong element of bandwagoners brings in crucial revenue for a club when things are going well. The LoI have rarely gone outside their 'comfort' zone of passionate fans.

Gavin shels wrote: »

So how do you suggest making LoI more attractive for ignorant barstoolers? Take into account the current economic situation, the few euro's the FAI provide and the poor attendences.

I can't wait to see what your answer will be, by the way letting Sky rape us because of our incompentent fools in the FAI won't work like it did in England.:pac:

You see you call people 'ignorant barstoolers' but i believe you displayed some ignorance earlier in this thread. When franchises were mentioned, you came back with a 'witty' retort along the lines of 'Sporting Torpedo Deportivo Dublin Shamrocks' as a potential name for a franchise. This displayed a serious ignorance to franchises. Oh yes, they have sometimes stupid names but they work in a great many sports. Ask any Buffalo Bills fan in the States about their 'passion' because believe me they have it, in abundence actually. Despite what a lot of Munster fans will tell you their passion has only developed in the last 12 or so years, why, because its a good standard, they play at a good level and they sort out making the munster brand attractive for fans. The well oiled story is that in 1996 you could go to a Leinster/Munster match and their would be a few hundred there, now tens of thousands-because they made rugby attractive.

What are the solutions? Well seeing as the 'real' fans dismiss the notion of franchises, imo, we cannot have a serious standard of football required to break the english football spell in this country. 12 clubs into a population of 4 million in the 26 counties alligned to the fact that the GAA is so big here means we will never get passed a Championship standard imo, which wont bring in the required numbers needed to maintain this level proffesionally. So imo the LoI should ditch its short term approach of paying players in an effort to be pro and go ameteur. The standard won't go down sufficantly enough to lose attendences and because nearly every LoI fan is hardcore.

With the excess revenue;
1) Invest in your stadiums/facilities
2) Put money into the match day atmosphere/marketing the games adn none of this half assed efforts like before which petere out quickly
3) Rebrand the league into what it is- the best non pros in this country
4) Invest more money into youth teams

In addition
LoI fans stop preaching to people about supporting football in Ireland. Maybe less of the 'ignorant barstoolers' arguments and some more constructive arguments.

Zebra3

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I'll make it easier... show me one club that doesn't.

Well, my club for one doesn't sell itself as a product.

It offers itself as a football club and all the joys and despairs that come with it.

themont85

SectionF wrote: »

If I were looking for good business practice I wouldn't start in football in the first place. Of course business is a critical component, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all.
One would have thought that lesson had been learned with the general stutters in the business system over recent months. People of a business-is-all bent are fond of lecturing others about realities. But the basic reality is that, regardless of the best efforts of Rupert Murdoch and his ilk, football still is football, and football is a sport.

You are not getting it! A football club has to run itself as a business. I already stated that the great thing about football is the way a lot of fans won't ditch when the goin is tough, they are the rock of the club! But to grow, to get fairweather fans onboard-basic business practices have to be taken up. And i never said business was the be all and end all but its very important.

I'm not trying to lecture, im stating the reality of the world. We all aren't brilliant and passionate about football. And as regards lecturing i've seen too many LoI fans attempt to talk dumb to non fans about its merits for me to take it seriousely.

Zebra3

For any organisation to exist, it needs to take in more money than it spends.

Though Shamrock Rovers and Cork City have proven otherwise.......

SligoBrewer

themont85 wrote: »

. I already splashed Leeds as an example, unfortunately they have dropped down the ladder and a certain percentage of fans has gone with them. Why? Because the football quality has dropped and their not as 'glamorous' to go see i.e their product has gone downhill

Leeds fans didn't desert 'their' team 'cause the 'product' standards dropped. They left as there was no opportunity to gloryhunt and suddenly supporting Leeds wasn't as glamourous when they were playing in Plymouth and losing to Histon. This **** about 'the standard of the product' is hilarious.

themont85 wrote: »

.
You may be a 'real' football and not like describing football as even a little to do with business.

Because every football team's name contain the word 'club'.
LC Accounting 101. Club accounts = No profit or losses, only surpluses and deficits.
Therefore, if this was kept to, football should never be a business.
And yes I am aware I'm being idealistic.

themont85

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Leeds fans didn't desert 'their' team 'cause the 'product' standards dropped. They left as there was no opportunity to gloryhunt and suddenly supporting Leeds wasn't as glamourous when they were playing in Plymouth and losing to Histon. This **** about 'the standard of the product' is hilarious.


Because every football team's name contain the word 'club'.
LC Accounting 101. Club accounts = No profit or losses, only surpluses and deficits.
Therefore, if this was kept to, football should never be a business.
And yes I am aware I'm being idealistic.

Eh is playing the likes of Plymoth in comparision to the likes of Man United not a drop in the standard of football?!!:eek: I could have sworn it was. Dress it up as 'glory hunting', but ive said it in every post-we all aren't as great as you, you 'real' fan. Your not actually saying anything constructive whatsoever to big up the LoI.

Football teams may be 'clubs' but its not like any old tennis club with their accounts. Even if its not for profit it doesn't excuss anyone from not running their club with the goal of not losing money and expanding their operation.

bobbysands81

Zebra3 wrote: »

Well, my club for one doesn't sell itself as a product.

It offers itself as a football club and all the joys and despairs that come with it.

Zebra3 wrote: »

For any organisation to exist, it needs to take in more money than it spends.

There's an inherent condradiction in those two statements. In order to take in money your club must sell some sort of product.

Unless your club plays in a minor League like the United Churches League then I doubt it.

Do I have to pay to see their matches (the product)?
Could I set up a team with the same name?
Could I use their logo?
Do they have sponsorship?
Do they promote themselves?
Do they sell merchandise?

If the answer to all the above is no, and no money ever changes hands, then maybe they are not a product. If the answer to any of the questions above is yes, then they are a product.

stovelid

themont85 wrote: »

Hilarious, are you denying that good business practice doesn't get fair weather fans on seats?!
Seriousely?! When attracting these fairweather fans, that is the way a CEO or board of a club would look at it. I already
splashed Leeds as an example, unfortunately they have dropped down the ladder and a certain percentage of fans has gone with
them. Why? Because the football quality has dropped and their not as 'glamorous' to go see i.e their product has gone downhill.
Do you not like the word 'product'? Are any business terms too hard for the LoI? If so then the league and proffesional football
will continue to stutter.

You may be a 'real' football and not like describing football as even a little to do with business. We're not all as great as you,
a fan willing to stand there and watch sub standard play in crap stadiums all for the love of the game and a passion for your local
team. I've said it once and i'll say it again-Human beings are fickle!

The reason 'proffesional' and football in general in this country is so bad is because the FAI and the LoI have had an aversion
to any sort of business practice for years. Seemingly the very fans who bitch and moan about them are just as bad.

LoI fans don't keep moaning about poor attendences and crap help from administrators if you keep banging the same old drum about
'passion' ect. Blah blah blah, nothing succesful has ever come from it.

I'm sure most fans would like more innovation from the FAI (and clubs themselves) when it comes to marketing and developing the game here. The situation is so critical that it's laughable to think in terms of the LOI attracting Munster or Jack's Army type fans; the league needs fans full stop.

The league needs the vast majority of 'football mad' males to stop being pathologically ashamed of their own league and start attending at least the odd game, even if it isn't Champions League standard.

Liverpool and Manchester United didn't become 'brands' solely on the back of business practise. They were community football clubs, deeply connected with their areas and loyal fans, and became a sporting success as a result. The generations of local support that eventually made (and make) these teams attractive to business practise are the kind of fans that you all enjoy poking fun at here: the fans that supported Newton Heath, the countless Liverpool fans that endured failure and even tragedy, down the years. All Sky and the like did was to market this sense of community and belonging (and of course the success) to fair weather fans globally.

What makes me laugh is - as someone who supported United long before Sky came along - the post-Sky lionization of football culture. Soccer AM, football mags, those knowing ads about popular moments in football culture: in the marketing of football, the fans that "are so f*ckin football" are the engine of EPL marketing, yet the equivalent fans in your own country are laughed at as weird cranks for preserving on and "watching sub standard play in crap stadiums all for the love of the game and a passion for your local
team".

Obviously, the overwhelmingly majority of people here support a big, successful club, and more than likely may have experienced their formative supporting years during the Murdoch boom, so it's natural to always think in terms of product when your allegiance to a team is based on renewing a TV subscription, and you are a fan (as we all are) and are in such close proximity to the biggest league in the world.

The fact is that the LOI needs to attract what you deride as 'real' fans before fair weather fans. For me, the investment should be in facilities and improving the match day experience, extending roots into the community and above all, attracting *children* to the LOI, and educating them in the history of football support - a tradition that is still strong in the 99.99% of clubs worldwide that are not massively successful, and in fairness, the super-duper clubs loved all over the world. I don't think the fair weather fans should even be bothered about. They won't come to grounds that are not super-duper; where players are not absolutely top-drawer, because they want to support whoever is successful. We should be trying to bring up future generations of football supporters, and creating genuine fan-bases. The fair weather fans will come, late to the party as ever, if that ever finally happens.

themont85

stovelid wrote: »

I'm sure most fans would like more innovation from the FAI (and clubs themselves) when it comes to marketing and developing the game here. The situation is so critical that it's laughable to think in terms of the LOI attracting Munster or Jack's Army type fans; the league needs fans full stop.

The league needs the vast majority of 'football mad' males to stop being pathologically ashamed of their own league and start attending at least the odd game, even if it isn't Champions League standard.

Liverpool and Manchester United didn't become 'brands' solely on the back of business practise. They were community football clubs, deeply connected with their areas and loyal fans, and became a sporting success as a result. The generations of local support that eventually made (and make) these teams attractive to business practise are the kind of fans that you all enjoy poking fun at here: the fans that supported Newton Heath, the countless Liverpool fans that endured failure and even tragedy, down the years. All Sky and the like did was to market this sense of community and belonging (and of course the success) to fair weather fans globally.

What makes me laugh is - as someone who supported United long before Sky came along - the post-Sky lionization of football culture. Soccer AM, football mags, those knowing ads about popular moments in football culture: in the marketing of football, the fans that "are so f*ckin football" are the engine of EPL marketing, yet the equivalent fans in your own country are laughed at as weird cranks for preserving on and "watching sub standard play in crap stadiums all for the love of the game and a passion for your local
team".

Obviously, the overwhelmingly majority of people here support a big, successful club, and more than likely may have experienced their formative supporting years during the Murdoch boom, so it's natural to always think in terms of product when your allegiance to a team is based on renewing a TV subscription, and you are a fan (as we all are) and are in such close proximity to the biggest league in the world.

The fact is that the LOI needs to attract what you deride as 'real' fans before fair weather fans. For me, the investment should be in facilities and improving the match day experience, extending roots into the community and above all, attracting *children* to the LOI, and educating them in the history of football support - a tradition that is still strong in the 99.99% of clubs worldwide that are not massively successful, and in fairness, the super-duper clubs loved all over the world. I don't think the fair weather fans should even be bothered about. They won't come to grounds that are not super-duper; where players are not absolutely top-drawer, because they want to support whoever is successful. We should be trying to bring up future generations of football supporters, and creating genuine fan-bases. The fair weather fans will come, late to the party as ever, if that ever finally happens.

The more fairweather fans/non traditional supporters you get, the more you will convert to hardcore ones.