The IAA, "The Shop" and the other organisation - Moved from the PQ Thread

Tigger

I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

i go now

Busta Hyman

a couple of points after the pub


background check or not you cant register an airsoft device as it has no serial no

i would rather no background check but if as an airsofter i need to submit to one i do so knowing i have no problem with the authorities

a lot of this is political bullsh** and is dividing the sport if this continues i have about 250 quids worth of gear im gonna have to hand over and im not gonna be a happy bunny. and i kno a lot of you guys have a shi* load more invested

its time a few ppl grew up and just get there heads over there arses we need to unite behind the current organisation that already have a dialogue with the powers that be ffs. stfu already

/end_rant

/commence_ban

OzCam

Scumbug: So how do I join?
Retailer: No bother, here's a form, I can sign you up now, it's free.
Valued Customer: Jaysus, bud, that's just like buying a handgun in Texas, wha?

or

Scumbug: So how do I join?
Retailer: No bother, here's a form, I can sign you up now, it's free. Just provide two forms of I.D. for the Garda background check. It'll take between 10 and 30 days, depending on how busy they are. Don't worry, it's just like the check they do for working with children.
Valued Customer: Jaysus, bud, that's like buying a handgun in California, or Massachusetts or some bleedin' place. Hold on a fcukin' minute, are you calling me a pervert?


This folks, is satire. The idea is almost beyond parody. We thought the UKARA was bad...

OzCam

gerrowadat wrote: »

I'm still waiting on an actual scenario where a database with what AEGs everyone owns is used for any reason apart from direct marketing.

If When it falls into the wrong hands, I'm sure that person will find something to do with it.

MAD Ozzie

But what if the Scumbag opens the shop??

Busta Hyman

MAD Ozzie wrote: »

But what if the Scumbag opens the shop??

generally that happens after hours an then its usually a call to a locksmith with the "ive lost me keys" ****e ........ i get it all the time

Stercus Accidit

This pretty much sums it up IMO.

JOHN MC

i would just like to say to people who are taking names of the people that attended the meeting of the irish airsoft sports that i was meant to go but could not make it.
i thought no-one was suppose to mention m.i.a (derek) or the IAA so since everyone is talking about m.i.a & the IAA does that mean were all banned now?????????????

Busta Hyman

no apparently mcd took a lawsuit its a sticky at the top of the boards .....

kiwi84000

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Garbage. Do not attempt to change the facts to suit your chosen avenue of attack. Go back and read the statement Tigger made and this is what he offered as supporting evidence. He did not elude to cliques, he made a specific accusation that there is a two-tier situation in the IAA.

Irregardless of what Tigger was doing that to me screams clique.

A clique (IPA:/'klɪk/ in America, /'kliːk/ elsewhere) is an exclusive group of people who share interests, views, purposes, patterns of behavior, or ethnicity.

Pay to join and nominating friends provides the exclusive group part and the rest is pretty self explanatory.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

This "evidence" is nothing short of pathetic. No time stamps are provided to indicate when it took place and it is entirely unrelated to his accusation. Furthermore, the manner in which people converse with one another, in a chat room, at christ knows what time and where they could be viewed by anyone provides no evidence of a "clique".

Look above

Hivemind187 wrote: »

People are entitled to befriend one another whether you approve of it or not - it has no baring on their ethics or whether they can do the job. I did not know Sean or Conor or Dar or Dave or Stephane or Stephen before I worked with them on the IAA. That I call them my friends now is based on their worth to me as individuals which is something earned over time when you work closely with people.

I am not saying they couldn't do the job. I am saying that I dont agree with some of the policies of the IAA and I dont feel that I deserve the abuse you are spouting for attempting to come up with an alternative.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

So what are you actually trying to say here? That you cant have a voice because there is some conpiracy to silence you? I invite you to count the number of people who put themselves forward for the job that these individuals took on.

Do I look like I have a tinfoil hat on my head? I clearly dont have a voice as you require me to pay for the "privilege". Nor by your very rules would I have been able to stand for office.

On top of that if I had paid and voted for someone then I as someone with a vested interest is voting for someone to represent me a business.

Of the people who attended the meeting there was a possible choice of roughly 14 people who could vote. Counting the people in that discussion I see 5 people with another 3 mentioned. So 8 total in a clique voting for who they previously discussed for positions.

It was impossible for them to loose. Again I am quite surprised to see an organization representing all airsofters, sites and retailers with so few people at an AGM.

The "secret, behind closed doors takeover" meeting held last Thursday would actually rival your AGM in terms of numbers.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Let me tell you something about information and reality mate.

You can not just plonk information into the public domain to make people happy. You have to fact check what you are saying. You have to seek the right to reproduce and to quote. You have obligations upon obligations not the least of which being to ensure that everything that you say from an offical position is up to date, factual and correct. Other wise you are letting down the very people you are supposed to be helping.

All of this work takes time. Sorry if it wasnt done quickly enough for your tastes.

As I have stated before whether the IAA could or could not give me the information was irrelevant. I was working from the assumption that AIRSOFT WAS GOING TO BE BANNED. This was clearly not the case and as a result I attended a meeting to defend and represent the sport of airsoft where I voted on measures that might provide an alternative to BEING BANNED!

Hivemind187 wrote: »

As for your snidy little "those representing me" - Up until thursday by all accounts the IAA did represent you (as a member of the responsible airsoft community - unless you are aknowledging yourself as being an irresponsible member!).

What a flawed argument. By that right I am now part of a new organization representing YOU. Unless you are a criminal and such.

Also the IAA may have represented me as an airsofter however it did not represent me as a legitimate business

Hivemind187 wrote: »

If you would like to show me all the other organisations which were representing the airsoft community I would dearly love to see them and ask them why the hell they werent pitching in?

There were none before. Now there is. Why cant we work together instead of this turning into a excrement throwing competition, which lets face it, this thread is.


Quite clearly you are not a fan of Derek from MIA. Fine. Derek is not the be all and end off of this new organization.

Quite clearly you have an issue with the introduction of a database for AEG's. I propose a new thread to be started without all this political baggage to discuss the benefits and problems with this proposal.

Clearly you are of the opinion that airsofters should have to pay to have the sport saved. I propose a new thread to discuss the benefits and problems of the possibilities.Member pays while affiliates don't, Affiliates pay while members dont and both paying.

Drop those three points and lets see where the discussion on a second organization goes?

tonky

JOHN MC wrote: »

i would just like to say to people who are taking names of the people that attended the meeting of the irish airsoft sports that i was meant to go but could not make it.
i thought no-one was suppose to mention m.i.a (derek) or the IAA so since everyone is talking about m.i.a & the IAA does that mean were all banned now?????????????

It's called flexible moderation AFAIK.

(joke) /ducks back down /

OzCam

I didn't stand for any of the committee positions because I didn't feel qualified as I have been playing for less than a year. I'm beginning to have regrets about that decision.

Actually, since I'm a Company Secretary already, maybe I should have. Didn't want to be accused of that ultimate Irish sin - Being A Blow In. I get plenty of daft ideas from time to time, but none on even the same planet as some of those stupidities floated tonight.

Sorry, back on topic now...

Dar

Tigger wrote: »

ok

<drpepper> looks like im going for chair
<Shiva> want me to nominate u, Dave ?
<gerrout> If you would.
<gerrout> Looks better than a self-nomination since a lot of people probably haven't met me in person
<gerrout> "On the grounds that he is good at vice (vice) and is comfortable to sit in (chair)"
<Shiva> o'Connor, yeah ? Or O'Connel ?
<Shiva> I know is OC
<Fayer> This is like a political cue being staged by the hawks......
<drpepper> muhahaaha
<drpepper> world power is mine
<Fayer> Get Doc and MR2 in as well !
<conor-mr2> lol
<drpepper> Richie for Tech
<drpepper>
<Shiva> could richie run ?
<drpepper> DOC as sec
<conor-mr2> is there a bus driver position
<Fayer> That woudl be a good vote at the AGM
<Shiva> Whats Gerrouts surname ?
<Shiva> o'Connor ?
<drpepper> yah
<drpepper> David O'Connor
<drpepper> also sure Richie could run
<Shiva> even though he works for me ?
<Shiva> kinda a commercial interest
<drpepper> he hasnt got a vested interest
<Fayer> Just dont pay him Tony and he is fine
<drpepper> same with sas-c


some days work is quiet

1. A group of friends have a discussion about nominations for democratically elected positions. They put themselves forward, or have a friend put them forward.

2. Full public notice is posted saying anyone can put themselves forward for a position and that, as long as a members seconds their nomination, they will be on the ballot on the day of the AGM and the members present will decide.

3. Those members who actually had the nerve to put themselves forward ran uncontested and were elected unanimously at the AGM.


Those are the facts. You actually have the gall to cry 'clique, clique!', to deride the people who decided to put in the effort, to sling mud and to rabblerouse?

If you want to know who's "fault" this is then look in the bloody mirror. Did you join up and nominate yourself? Did you gather round a few people on a skirmish day and say "You know what, I want to get in there and shake things up! Sign up and vote for me!"? Did you do anything at all?

No, you did what the majority of Irish people do; in airsoft and in everything else: absolutely nothing. You sat back, waited for the dust to settle and now decide to jump in with cries of "conspiracy!".

You have every right to argue a case against the IAA with regards policy, with regards transparency, with regards community relations, etc. Bring your facts , argue your position; they'll do the same. Let the better man win. That's constructive criticism; to be honest we, as a community, need a lot more of it. But don't dare try and blame other people for the results of your own apathy and inaction.

Dar

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Clearly you are of the opinion that airsofters should have to pay to have the sport saved. I propose a new thread to discuss the benefits and problems of the possibilities.Member pays while affiliates don't, Affiliates pay while members dont and both paying.

No clearly he's of the position that we need a body that represents, is run by and is funded by players. If the IAA was funded by retailers and sites the very same people who deride it for forcing "airsoftrs to pay to have their sport saved" would be on here claiming it was in the pocket of, and a mouthpiece for, those businesses.

kiwi84000

Dar wrote: »

No clearly he's of the position that we need a body that represents, is run by and is funded by players. If the IAA was funded by retailers and sites the very same people who deride it for forcing "airsoftrs to pay to have their sport saved" would be on here claiming it was in the pocket of, and a mouthpiece for, those businesses.

Do you honestly believe that the IAA is funded by members only?

kiwi84000

Dar wrote: »

1. A group of friends have a discussion about nominations for democratically elected positions. They put themselves forward, or have a friend put them forward.

2. Full public notice is posted saying anyone can put themselves forward for a position and that, as long as a members seconds their nomination, they will be on the ballot on the day of the AGM and the members present will decide.

3. Those members who actually had the nerve to put themselves forward ran uncontested and were elected unanimously at the AGM.


Those are the facts. You actually have the gall to cry 'clique, clique!', to deride the people who decided to put in the effort, to sling mud and to rabblerouse?

If you want to know who's "fault" this is then look in the bloody mirror. Did you join up and nominate yourself? Did you gather round a few people on a skirmish day and say "You know what, I want to get in there and shake things up! Sign up and vote for me!"? Did you do anything at all?

No, you did what the majority of Irish people do; in airsoft and in everything else: absolutely nothing. You sat back, waited for the dust to settle and now decide to jump in with cries of "conspiracy!".

You have every right to argue a case against the IAA with regards policy, with regards transparency, with regards community relations, etc. Bring your facts , argue your position; they'll do the same. Let the better man win. That's constructive criticism; to be honest we, as a community, need a lot more of it. But don't dare try and blame other people for the results of your own apathy and inaction.

There is a clique there as per the defination.

NO I did not stand by the way side. I chose to attend a meeting of a new organization that does not require you to pay to vote in an attempt to save the sport you and I play.

I chose not to follow the old irish tradition of "better the devil you know"

Dar

Since I'm the former treasurer I know it for a bloody fact. Eirsoft.ie kindly paid for the room hire for first AGM in 2007, that is the only exception. If you had bothered to sign up and attend the AGM you would have would have seen the figures.

Edit: My apologies, Eirsoft.ie also paid for printing of information leaflets to hand out at Salute. Damn him and his Machiavellian ways!

Rhinocharge

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that the IAA is funded by members only?

Yes, call me a liar I dare you.

No member of the IAA committee has ever requested or hinted at commercial funding or donations. Your're grabbing at straws now.

Dar

kiwi84000 wrote: »

There is a clique there as per the defination.

Did you do anything to change it? Did you even try?

NO I did not stand by the way side. I chose to attend a meeting of a new organization that does not require you to pay to vote.

How many months later? You waited until our backs were against the wall before pulling the finger out. And yet again you bring up the the subject of subscription fees. So what you want is a body that will do all the work for you and someone else to pay for all the expenses for you as well. The timeless political chant of "Can't someone else do it!".

kiwi84000

Dar wrote: »

Did you do anything to change it? Did you even try?

At the time no. Simple answer. At the time I saw the IAA as a waste of money. Money that I did not have. I am sure many people who would have liked to vote were in the same position.

Dar wrote: »

How many months later? You waited until our backs were against the wall before pulling the finger out. And yet again you bring up the the subject of subscription fees. So what you want is a body that will do all the work for you and someone else to pay for all the expenses for you as well. The timeless political chant of "Can't someone else do it!".

Or that I as a business with a vested interest and making profit from it pays. Members join for free and can vote in who they think would run it. If that happened to be the current IAA board then so be it.

Yes I have a problem with having to pay membership to vote. This excludes many that you say you want to represent. Why would you turn down funding when you have nothing to loose and are asked for nothing in return?

When the Minister said I am going to ban airsoft yes I perked up my ears. Why shouldnt I have?

kiwi84000

Dar wrote: »

Since I'm the former treasurer I know it for a bloody fact. Eirsoft.ie kindly paid for the room hire for first AGM in 2007, that is the only exception. If you had bothered to sign up and attend the AGM you would have would have seen the figures.

Edit: My apologies, Eirsoft.ie also paid for printing of information leaflets to hand out at Salute. Damn him and his Machiavellian ways!

Was it a bad thing that he did either of these things? No. He was in a position to help and he did so.

Did you give him special treatment? No.

If more retailers and sites helped out and it helped reduce the cost of membership would you give them special treatment? No.

Thank you very much for proving my point Dar.

I have been trying to get to this for the last 2 hours.

Dar

kiwi84000 wrote: »

At the time no. Simple answer. At the time I saw the IAA as a waste of money. Money that I did not have. I am sure many people who would have liked to vote were in the same position.

And why did you think it was a waste of time? Was it because you didn't think we needed a representative body? Was it because you didn't agree with the code of conduct of retailers regulations? Was it because you didn't like constitution?

No, it was because you didn't like the people in charge. Well you had the opportunity to get rid of all of them if you had bothered trying. Would it then be "a waste of money"? Hell most of us are gone anyway. Only two committee members have continued on for a second term.

Or that I as a business with a vested interest and making profit from it pays. Members join for free and can vote in who they think would run it.

Therein lies to problem. You assume that players interests coincide exactly with those of retailers. I don't. Thats why I paid my €30, that's why I'll pay it again next year. Whats can you get for thirty euro? A day's skirmish? BBs for a month?

I for one, as a bog-standard member, would consider the independence of body that represents me to be priceless.

Rhinocharge

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Was it a bad thing that he did either of these things? No. He was in a position to help and he did so.

Did you give him special treatment? No.

If more retailers and sites helped out and it helped reduce the cost of membership would you give them special treatment? No.

Thank you very much for proving my point Dar.

I have been trying to get to this for the last 2 hours.

What exactly is your point??

If IAA affliates where seen to be donating funds, you'd be crying about commercialisation of the IAA & when we're not, you bitch about that too.

Lemming

kiwi84000 wrote: »

If more retailers and sites helped out and it helped reduce the cost of membership would you give them special treatment? No.

Thank you very much for proving my point Dar.

I have been trying to get to this for the last 2 hours.

Really? 2 hours? jesus ... what a crap way to go about it. You could have just y'know .... asked in the first place.

On the matter of membership costs. I raised this very issue at the AGM. The organisation has been runing for a year (just over now I suppose).

As I understand it, they had no idea of the range of costs involved although made a good stab at it in setting the fee. They stated that they were open to reviewing the fee as they get more data to analyse and be able to see what sort of fees beyond the obvious are being incurred on average in a given year.

Further, being a non-profit organisation, the IAA is required to carry a minimum "solvency" amount in its account at all times by LAW. And it is not an inconsiderable amount either ...

I'm sure given more retailers stepping up to the plate they'd be able to look at reducing fees, but that comes in an annual basis since fees are sought annually which is a total no-brainer. Unless of course, you're just rushing to find something to try and beat the IAA with. Without thinking ...

I should also add a rather salient point to all of this. Nowhere have the IAA been paid a single penny personally. It is not the IAA's money. It is the membership's money. So why you might have a problem handing over such a small amount is beyond me (outside of financial hardship of course), since said amount is being held on your behalf.

Fallschirmjager

okay, i really have to go now, if we are discussing the value of a vote versus 30 euro in a sport that cost hundreds if not thousands.i have said what i think and i thank those who replied in the same manner.


happy Christmas to each and every one of you regardless of which side of the fence you are on....

Dar

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Was it a bad thing that he did either of these things? No. He was in a position to help and he did so.

Did you give him special treatment? No.

If more retailers and sites helped out and it helped reduce the cost of membership would you give them special treatment? No.

Thank you very much for proving my point Dar.

I have been trying to get to this for the last 2 hours.

One opportunity for corruption did not cause corruption, therefore no opportunity for corruption can cause corruption. This passes for logic?

The first AGM was donated by Tony when eirsoft.ie was still something doen on the side. The EGM was paid by passing a collection plate around the members there. Much as I like Tony and respect his integity, I still prefer the later.

kiwi84000

Lemming wrote: »

Really? 2 hours? jesus ... what a crap way to go about it. You could have just y'know .... asked in the first place.

On the matter of membership costs. I raised this very issue at the AGM. The organisation has been runing for a year (just over now I suppose).

As I understand it, they had no idea of the range of costs involved although made a good stab at it in setting the fee. They stated that they were open to reviewing the fee as they get more data to analyse and be able to see what sort of fees beyond the obvious are being incurred on average in a given year.

Further, being a non-profit organisation, the IAA is required to carry a minimum "solvency" amount in its account at all times by LAW. And it is not an inconsiderable amount either ...

I'm sure given more retailers stepping up to the plate they'd be able to look at reducing fees, but that comes in an annual basis since fees are sought annually which is a total no-brainer. Unless of course, you're just rushing to find something to try and beat the IAA with. Without thinking ...

No it is something I suggested to the IAA reps when they were at the site on Saturday.

NakedDex

This whole thread contains more conflict than an engagement in Lashkar Gah. This is my one and only post on the topic, one which I have taken great lengths to stay out of, and I do so only to highlight a few lines of text from the IAA Vice-Chairman that seem to have been over looked in the exchanges.

gerrowadat wrote: »

I want to make a couple things clear, since it seems a book has been written since I last weighed in on this thread:

- Please do not boycott any retailer or site over this. This only serves to make the damage this new body is causing worse.
- The IAA has never refused a body affiliation.
- The IAA is prepared to talk to Derek or anyone involved in this new body in the spirit of making sure voices are heard. Personal differences -are- aside. The IAA committee are different people from who they were 6 months ago when the MIA thing went down. **** happens. Let's talk.

Lads, that seems distinctively like an olive branch to me. I remember when ours was a tight knit community, where everyone would support one another for the good of the sport if not for the benefit of your fellow player. It'd be nice to return to that, a game without accusations, conspiracies and, most importantly for me, without this inherent lack of trust that seems to have, sadly, built up among us.

Because it is "us". It's not "me", "you" or "them". We are airsoft enthusiasts, all of us. Be you, the reader, a retailer, site operator, skirmisher, collector or target shooter, we are all in the same boat. The IAA has, it seems in my humble opinion, offered an outstretched hand in that statement in the interest of peace among enthusiasts and the long life of the sport.

Perhaps the fact that we have 15 pages of conflict in the space of a day (that being the most activity, good or bad, I've seen on Boards.ie>Sports>Airsoft since I can remember) should be looked at as the point at which all airsoft enthusiasts took a step back and realised they're all on the same side.

Now, feel free to take or leave this soliloquy to mean what you will, but it was written in earnest and with the express and pure hope that this sad situation can be looked back on in a years time by the entire community, standing shoulder to shoulder and identified as a turning point, the point where we, the airsoft enthusiasts of Ireland, realised the fight and passion we all have was better served as thousands of voices in unison crying out in support of our common goals, than as disjointed ones crying out against each other.



As I said, this will be my first and last post on this topic. I shall end as I begun, with a highlight of the two most important words in this entire exchange.

gerrowadat wrote: »

Let's talk.

I, personally, hope for all our sakes, this request is answered.


Dex

Lemming

kiwi84000 wrote: »

No it is something I suggested to the IAA reps when they were at the site on Saturday.

Really? You mentioned it too? Well good for you. I raised the point as a member and it's recored in the AGM minutes. What did you do? Oh that's right .. you just criticised them from your pedestal. How very Oirish.

Hivemind187

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Was it a bad thing that he did either of these things? No. He was in a position to help and he did so.

Did you give him special treatment? No.

If more retailers and sites helped out and it helped reduce the cost of membership would you give them special treatment? No.

Thank you very much for proving my point Dar.

I have been trying to get to this for the last 2 hours.

Go ahead in your spurious attempts to claim the IAA is funded by ulterior means. Heres the real skinny for you:

The IAA up until December 12th 2007 was funded solely by the pockets of those putting it together - persons asked to do so by this very board (mods if you would be so kind as to dig out that original thread and put an end to this dribble). At the AGM Tony paid for the venue as the IAA had a current total funding of 0. Zilch. Neit. Nada.

Everything else to that point had been paid for by the organisers i.e. Myself, Sean, Dave, Stephane and Oisin.

The advertising flyers for T4BB were paid for by Tony as an advertisment for his business. They carried the IAA logo and the HRTA details as well. I believe Derek got a wodge of these for free as well. I personally designed and printed the flyers myself. The materials were the only cost involved.

In March the IAA began to accept membership payments. At this point budgets began to be drawn up and money put into the important areas such as web hosting, flyers, events like Salute etc.

No monies were taken from affiliates to fund the IAA out side of their own membership fees.

The accounts were published. Go ahead and check them yourself. Accusing the IAA of taking monies which do not appear in the books is an accusation of fraud and I think you should retract it.*

Your figures on those entitled to a vote at the AGM are bull**** as well.

Affiliates are businesses. Individual members are individual members.

The Business does not get a vote but the owner of that business is not prevented from holding an individual membership and as such, should they hold one, they have a vote.

*Unless I have completely misunderstood your point.

kiwi84000

Dar wrote: »

And why did you think it was a waste of time? Was it because you didn't think we needed a representative body? Was it because you didn't agree with the code of conduct of retailers regulations? Was it because you didn't like constitution?

No, it was because you didn't like the people in charge. Well you had the opportunity to get rid of all of them if you had bothered trying. Would it then be "a waste of money"? Hell most of us are gone anyway. Only two committee members have continued on for a second term.

I never said it was a waste of time. I said it was a waste of money I did not have.

I did and still do think that we need a representative body.

I have no issues with the code of conduct or regulations.

I never saw the constatution.

Stating that I didnt like those running it is false. I have the utmost respect for the members and those running it. The fact that you are doing something when I could not kept my mind at ease.

That was ofcourse till the ministers comments.

gerrowadat

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Was it a bad thing that he did either of these things? No. He was in a position to help and he did so.

Did you give him special treatment? No.

If more retailers and sites helped out and it helped reduce the cost of membership would you give them special treatment? No.

Thank you very much for proving my point Dar.

I have been trying to get to this for the last 2 hours.

Eirsoft does get special treatment for what they do for the IAA -- they're seen as being the 'benefactors' for the IAA, and stuff like not being invited to this meeting last week happens.

The IAA made a conscious decision not to ask retailers for money, simply because we've been an association for players. Most of what we've been doing over the last while has been to do with the legitimisation of the sport. Tangible benefits for retailers and sites have been on the backburner, because frankly the affiliates already have people working fulltime to look after their own interests. Our interests were solely to safeguard the continuance of the sport for the players. Your business being allowed to continue trading is very important to its profitability.

We're currently looking into changing fee structures (because I actually agree that 30 quid is too much), but as I've said to you in person, we wouldn't be comfortable asking commercial interests for money right now, since our current work doesn't have any tangible, right-now benefit for affiliates (apart from legitimising airsoft, which I guess is important), and we want to avoid having the appearance of being in any one (or several) affiliate's pocket.

I suspect a lot of questions will be answered when this new body publishes its constitution, fee structure, plan of action, etc.

kiwi84000

gerrowadat wrote: »

Eirsoft does get special treatment for what they do for the IAA -- they're seen as being the 'benefactors' for the IAA, and stuff like not being invited to this meeting last week happens.

I have gone on record to state that I was against people not being invited.

gerrowadat wrote: »

The IAA made a conscious decision not to ask retailers for money, simply because we've been an association for players. Most of what we've been doing over the last while has been to do with the legitimisation of the sport. Tangible benefits for retailers and sites have been on the backburner, because frankly the affiliates already have people working fulltime to look after their own interests. Our interests were solely to safeguard the continuance of the sport for the players. Your business being allowed to continue trading is very important to its profitability.

We're currently looking into changing fee structures (because I actually agree that 30 quid is too much), but as I've said to you in person, we wouldn't be comfortable asking commercial interests for money right now, since our current work doesn't have any tangible, right-now benefit for affiliates (apart from legitimising airsoft, which I guess is important), and we want to avoid having the appearance of being in any one (or several) affiliate's pocket.

It is very important and something that I would have no issue paying for.

gerrowadat wrote: »

I suspect a lot of questions will be answered when this new body publishes its constitution, fee structure, plan of action, etc.

Hivemind187

kiwi84000 wrote: »

I never saw the constatution.

Well its been up on the website since the get go and its draft versions are on this very forum.

Sorry, but thats either laziness or balderdash.

AirsoftEire.com

I just read through 14 pages of this and you can already see the damage done, there is a noticable divide in the community already with certain people thanking certain others continously and forum members arguing with each other who used to be able to have good fun on here. Which is incredibly sad to see.

Steve

Lemming

kiwi84000 wrote: »

I have no issues with the code of conduct or regulations.

Funny you should mention that. Members of the IASRA - leading members at that - had issues with the code of conduct in so much as they didn't want to follow them when they were not convenient.

Hardly a ringing endorsement of encouragement for reassurance in calls for tighter measures from some of these same people.

I never saw the constatution.

That's also funny since the proposed IAA constitution was available for quite some time indeed online and was debated over by the airsoft community at large on these very forums. Members of the IASRA were involved in the first IAA AGM in debating and voting on the particulars of that proposed constitution and indeed involved in the EGM that was called to further discuss and finally ratify the constitution.

You have had AMPLE time to familiarise yourself. You have had ample time to ask other members of the fledgling IASRA about where you could find information to that effect. You have done neither (except I dare hazard a guess, listen to innuendo painted as "fact"). That is ignorance of fact, nothing more. Nothing less. And you have only yourself to blame in that regard.

Stating that I didnt like those running it is false. I have the utmost respect for the members and those running it. The fact that you are doing something when I could not kept my mind at ease.

That was ofcourse till the ministers comments.

You have a remarkable way of showing your "utmost respect" given much of your commentary in this thread.

FingalAirsoft

gerrowadat wrote: »

Eirsoft does get special treatment for what they do for the IAA -- they're seen as being the 'benefactors' for the IAA, and stuff like not being invited to this meeting last week happens.

Ehhh what?

Dar

AirsoftEire.com wrote: »

I just read through 14 pages of this and you can already see the damage done, there is a noticable divide in the community already with certain people thanking certain others continously and forum members arguing with each other who used to be able to have good fun on here. Which is incredibly sad to see.

Steve

The divide was already there, it just wasn't noticeable. As impassioned as this discussion is it's better than the cold wall of silence that's usually there. If only we all cared so much all year round and not just when some hot topic pops up every few months.

Wacko

OzCam wrote: »

Wacko: the law says 1J, period. There should be some leeway or measuring tolerance in it, but there isn't. 1J is legal, 1.01J is not. We're stuck with that unless and until we can get it changed.

I was just pointing out the fact that the way in which the post was worded made it seem like this rifle was stated to be firing well above the legal limit and that it could be misinterpreted and used to incite feelings towards that retailer. I am well aware of what is legal and what is not.

kiwi84000

Lemming wrote: »

Funny you should mention that. Members of the IASRA - leading members at that - had issues with the code of conduct in so much as they didn't want to follow them when they were not convenient.

Hardly a ringing endorsement of encouragement for reassurance in calls for tighter measures from some of these same people.

What other people have issues with is not my concern Lemming. I am for stricter controls on who gets AEG's.

Lemming wrote: »

That's also funny since the proposed IAA constitution was available for quite some time indeed online and was debated over by the airsoft community at large on these very forums. Members of the IASRA were involved in the first IAA AGM in debating and voting on the particulars of that proposed constitution and indeed involved in the EGM that was called to further discuss and finally ratify the constitution.

You have had AMPLE time to familiarise yourself. You have had ample time to ask other members of the fledgling IASRA about where you could find information to that effect. You have done neither (except I dare hazard a guess, listen to innuendo painted as "fact"). That is ignorance of fact, nothing more. Nothing less. And you have only yourself to blame in that regard.

As I was never a member of the IAA I saw no reason to read the constitution. I know their policies from my research and my discussions with them and I personally disagree with some of them.

Lets stop the personal attacks and name calling please. I am here to have an actual debate regarding the formation of a second organization.

Lemming wrote: »

You have a remarkable way of showing your "utmost respect" given much of your commentary in this thread.

My commentary has been on the policies of the organization and how my views differ from them. This has nothing to do with the fact that I respect them for doing what they thought was best.

iceage

FFS guys...would you get a ****ing grip all of you. Mods how have you let this continue? I have stayed out of this but have been sitting on the IAA website, not a word NOT ONE WORD!! of this bull**** appears there..

We are all aware of the traffic here, nearly 5000 views of this thread in 2 days! we are constantly told that if we have a problem with the IAA take it up with the IAA on they're site. Mods there are questions to be asked.

not for a minute going to take sides here thats impossible, and I believe people know where my alliances lie, we have to show a strong front here, but this is what happens.. I have my own opinions but this **** has to end now. This is without doubt counterproductive to the Sport.

Wacko

Wow I´ve read 17 pages of this and I don´t even play airsoft ! I deserve a medal if I may say so myself, everyone on here should just take a deep breath in and out, take it easy, think before you type, festive good will and all that. And remember you might someday meet that person you have just insulted in your post and they might be a lot bigger, stronger and tougher looking than you imagined, so don´t say anything you wouldn´t say to their face;).

Masada

i think most people have formed their opinions based on meeting this person., and weather hes big and strong makes no difference, what, hes "gonna getcha" coz ya dont agree with his ways?
The fact is that he wants control and doesnt give a sh*te about "airsofters"., in fact, out of all the shops and sites ive met, i would say every one of them were started from players originally, whereas a certain someone has no interest in the hobby, just the dosh it brings. cant say ive ever heard of them gaming,.,

FingalAirsoft

iceage wrote: »

FFS guys...would you get a ****ing grip all of you. Mods how have you let this continue? I have stayed out of this but have been sitting on the IAA website, not a word NOT ONE WORD!! of this bull**** appears there..

We are all aware of the traffic here, nearly 5000 views of this thread in 2 days! we are constantly told that if we have a problem with the IAA take it up with the IAA on they're site. Mods there are questions to be asked.

not for a minute going to take sides here thats impossible, and I believe people know where my alliances lie, we have to show a strong front here, but this is what happens.. I have my own opinions but this **** has to end now. This is without doubt counterproductive to the Sport.

If this debate where to take place on the IAA forum then only a small sector of the community would see it, so it suits the mods and IAA to allow it to go on boards.ie which has been biased from the start in favour for the IAA. As we all know.. the IAA was born here, so when it is under threat as an organisation from another start up organisation they need maxium exposure to try and discredit it. I have never seen so many IAA commitee memebers post in one thread, as stated before if we are to discuss the IAA or the said retailer the thread would be locked. Yet we continue tearing ourselves a new one: Wait for the statement from the IASRA before you pass judgement.


So lets just all leave it at that and cool down.....

Wacko

vtec wrote: »

i think most people have formed their opinions based on meeting this person., and weather hes big and strong makes no difference, what, hes "gonna getcha" coz ya dont agree with his ways?
The fact is that he wants control and doesnt give a sh*te about "airsofters"., in fact, out of all the shops and sites ive met, i would say every one of them were started from players originally, whereas a certain someone has no interest in the hobby, just the dosh it brings. cant say ive ever heard of them gaming,.,

I presume you are referring to my post, I haven´t a clue who you are talking about:o, I was talking metaphorically about everyone, basically trying to tell everyone, take it easy and think before you type,

Shiva

Ok....I was out with Doc and Vtec for the first Annual Eirsoft Christmas Pissup, and was watching some of this on the oul iphone....I didn't bother replying because I couldnt be arsed using the touchpad.

Anyway...some very quick points before I go to bed....

1) Please dont stop going to a particular skirmish site because of this. That wont benefit anyone. I've spoken to a lot of the people who were at this meeting, and I believe some people were there with the best of intentions.

2) Please lay of Kiwi/The Warehouse. I spoke to the lads for quite a long time about this meeting the day after it happened, and they were, to a man, disgusted that myself and other retailers werent included. They didnt know until they showed up that we hadnt been invited. They dont agree with everything that was discussed, and in fact were quite animated in their assertions that they would be voting to change a lot of what they heard. You can't fault them for that.

3) Kiwi is debating his points rationally. I dont agree with all of them, but he outlined most of what he's said in the posts he's made above to me personally, and from reading above, to the IAA, in person. He's actually being quite rational, and stating his beliefs, in my opinion, without a hidden agenda. I have no doubt he has airsoft's interests at heart. He'd be stupid not to, considering what he has invested in The Warehouse. Stop attacking the person and attack the post if you disagree.

4) There are a lot of people here who werent at that meeting (myself included, as you might have gathered ) who are presuming to know what went on. The fact is, those of us who werent there, dont know. However, I spoke to seven people who were at the meeting, and all but one of them told me of some things that were said, and never made it into the published minutes. These six people all agreed on the basics of what was said, without my prompting or feeding, and frankly, what was said is disturbing. The fact is that initially, there WERE attempts to limit who can join, and there were, quite frankly, ridiculously slanderous comments made to justify why they would not be allowed to join. Fortunately, these restriction attempts were abandoned when the person proposing them was admonished.

5) It actually might be quite beneficial to have a body representing airsoft's commercial interests. But in no way should it be a body that aims to replace the IAA. And before anyone says "oh but thats not what its about"....I beg to differ. A few people I spoke to said thats exactly what it was about.

In closing....I know there were people there who attended out of a sense of duty to airsoft and their businesses. But you can argue all you want, the fact remains that the person or persons who called this meeting deliberatly and cynically didnt bother to invite any of the retailers who they thought would have opposed them and their agenda. This is an unarguable FACT, and it demonstrates in no uncertain terms that the person behind this fiasco did NOT act out of any sense of duty or care for airsoft, but in a callous attempt to push his own agenda. As usual.

I'm done for the night. Its going to be yet another manic day in the shop tomorrow, so I doubt I'll get a chance to respond to anything else thats said over the next 18 hours, so goodnight, and Merry Christmas to you all.

Dar

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

If this debate where to take place on the IAA forum then only a small sector of the community would see it, so it suits the mods and IAA to allow it to go on boards.ie which has been biased from the start in favour for the IAA.

Ah yes, the incredibly biased forum which gave a certain individual a second chance after breaking god knows how many boards rules.

As we all know.. the IAA was born here,

Of course it was born here. Not to sound condescending, but in the old days this forum was the pretty much the center of the airsoft community in Ireland. You should ask players who have been playing for more than a year how many of them found out about the sport on this forum, or through someone on the forum. So yes it was on this forum that people started to discuss the need for a representative body.

gandalf

kiwi84000 wrote: »

It seems quite clear that he is showing the clique I was referring to earlier and quite clearly the background organization of positions within the IAA. Including commercial interests.

Also the fact that the IAA could not release the information does not negate the fact that I was not informed from "Those representing me" that our sport was not about to be banned.

Currently

Scumbag: I wanna buy tha glock:
Retailer: sure do you know how to use it and what to do with it?
Scumbag: eh no I just wanna shoot my neighbors cat:
Retailer: Sure that will be 300 Euro Safety is there have fun.

A CLIQUE !!!!! THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO WAS INVOLVED IN A SECRET MEETING WITH SELECTIVE INVITEES. YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.

gandalf

OK I joined as a mod here to counter the percieved IAA Bias on this forum. I have been a moderator of boards since its inception and have moderated some of the major sections on these forums including being Category Moderator of the Society Section.

I have had public disagreements with the out going committee of the IAA and whilst I am a member I have tended to be on the critical side of the fence.

I was a supporter of Derek Talbot and despaired at the farce that occured in March when things blew up the first time. I couldn't figure out why people could not sit down together and sort things out.

Things went on and in July Derek got site banned from Boards for duplicate accounts being set up to continually troll his agenda about the IAA.

I fought to get him back and here are the emails below that came at the end of that process.

gandalf - July 9th 2008 wrote:

Derek,

I have resolved this. You will be banned from the airsoft forum for a week, it will be backdated to last Thursday so in reality you are banned for one more day. I will open the Gorse Hill and MIA threads tomorrow when you are unbanned.

I need you to steer clear of any threads about the IAA, I will be advising anyone with any queries or opinions about them to take it to their forums (sure they need the traffic anyway).

I had to fight tooth and nail to get you back in (for some reason the lads have you off their Christmas card lists!) as I said on the phone the other night. Unfortunately the sting is if you step out of line again it will be a permanent ban from the Airsoft forum. You need to let your son know that acting the maggot like that just causes grief for everyone, I spent a fair bit of time sorting this out and I would be very disappointed if its wreaked by rubbish like that again.

I will be posting an outline on the two locked threads as to what happened because there has been a lot of interest from the community over this. If you have any issues with modding or posts that are appearing on the forum give me a shout via email, pm on boards or the phone.

All the best,

Paul.

Derek-July 10th wrote:

Cheers Paul

There is no fear of any more crap on Boards, we are moving to irishairsoftforums and there is something big in the pipe line, I will tell you on the phone.

Cheers

Derek

I found out afterwards what everyone else told me. Someone went back on their word.

Since then I have had an opportunity to see the outgoing IAA committee working and they are good. I went up to Northern Ireland to attend a meeting with some of the Northern Players and to hear their concerns for their sport and the extreme damage the UKARA situation has wreaked on the ability for the sport to grow. The inclusion of the Northern Irish players which was ratified at the IAA AGM is the fruit of this meeting. That was the IAA lads and ordinary players like me and an other who attended.

Far from being biased or a sheep I am an 39 year old who works in IT Security is quite intelligent and can recognise a pup when I see one. This so called new organisation is bourne from bad blood and its agenda at the core is the control of airsoft by commercial interests.

Busta Hyman

you know what. i havent paid my membership for the IAA partly because i was spending my spondoolicks on mags and trying to get a second gun and sidearm. this thread has convinced me im in lads at my next trip to eirsoft i will be paying my subs. and as for the shops wanting my personal details for there database can go and F**K right off . i would submit to a gardai background check but not to go on a mailing list. they also want to make sure they dont loose that info .... can you imagine the financial cost to the companies involved and the damage to the sport when that goes public. i will be purchaseing from affiliated members