The IAA, "The Shop" and the other organisation - Moved from the PQ Thread

gandalf

kiwi84000 wrote: »

From both the 1st paragraph of the constitution and from the discussions at the meeting I do believe that it will be representing the players.

To be honest that is a complete and utter farce from my point of view. Looking at the list of attendees this is clearly a commercial organisation. You should really credit the rest of us with more intelligence. Was the question not asked why were the IAA not approached and wouldn't it be more prudent to liaise with them and work together.

The opening paragraphs of the constitution mention everyone other than players. I find that extremely interesting. A bit of an afterthought were we?

Personally I would prefer more rules on who gets these devices.

Restrict and monopolise it appears.

From my discussions with retailers they all get hot AEG's from time to time. By this logic all retailers should be excluded from the IAA.

Unless they are repeat offenders then I assume they would be advised.

gandalf wrote: »

By placing a restriction on people purchasing them. Especially those who have concern about privacy issues with a Database and an extensive one at that being held on all their devices etc?

What information will be on this database? Not discussed

Well I guess the players are only incidental in this organisation.

How will it be secured? Not discussed

Not important, again its only the players.

Who will have access to it? DoJ and Committee

So a committee containing someone who has a grudge against a group of players.

How are the people who have access to it vetted? For the Committee they will be vetted by those voting in the committee. As for the DoJ it will be decided by the DoJ

See above plus the committee was elected by a sub section of selected commercial interests. It does not represent the players at all. Any attempt to dress it up in clothes pretending to do so is extremely insulting to our intelligence.

So no safeguards to protect players at all.

The organization would be run by those voted into the committee at the AGM. It too would be voluntary. Yes it is funded by commercial interests as they make the most money from Airsoft. But it is voted on by the members who would surely outnumber the commercial side.

Again an organisation that has come into being during a secretive meeting that only a selective subsection of Commercial interests were present.

Myself and the partners were invited by two different groups of people. The first invitation was the day before the meeting and the second was on the actual day. I believe that it was called on very short notice due to the comments made.

Maybe you got the invite early Derek has been harping on about something big since May.

I am going to take a page out of the IAA fan boi's book on this one. If you dont like who is running it then join for free and vote for who you do want.

Under no circumstances I am joining any organisation when one already exists that represents players without being slanted towards commercial interests.

Also I am currently distributing the names of the attendees who voted without objection to those that think like me and will be excluding my business from those businesses. I do this as a airsoft player. The others I am in contact with are the same age demographic as me. Older and with larger disposable incomes. Nice way to alienate your customers.

This whole "Secret meeting" thing has to stop. As far as I am aware it was called on short notice. As for the selected people part I have already stated that I do not agree with excluding anyone who would like to join and who was not invited.

What was it then a romantic liaison? It was secret and selective and quite pathetic.

You make the assumption that it is commercial only based on the people invited. I can see why you say this I really can. It would not have been my choice to invite only those that attended. However with that said I do agree with the principal objectives of the group. Just as I agree in the most part with what the IAA have proposed for venues.

It is obvious to me as a player that this organisation is being set up to pander to the commercial interests. I actually don't have a problem with a representative organisation for you. I do have a problem when an organisation impinges on my abilityto purchase airsoft equipment with people who I do not trust taking my details, my property details. Who the hell do you people think you are.

For me it boiled down to the fact that the IAA charge for membership and for voting. IASRA does not. This will ensure that the IASRA gets more of the airsoft community as members and as such will be more democratic then the IAA when it comes to deciding the future of our sport.

In the control of retailers taking our details without any plans on securing the data securely at all. Pathetic.

Again if you dont like something about the organization then join it and vote to change it.

Again I will not be joining there is an organisation in place already.

Thats a fair point. I can only respond that if you and others dont like him this much then join up and vote. I have had no issues with him and have not heard the stories so I will stay out of that one.

Wait for it.

Damage is Damage.

No its not. An AEG is not the same as a real gun.

If the new business agrees to follow the strict rules on sales why should they not want to join up?

Oh I don't see the businesses having problems. They will have a captive audience.

I am not here representing the organization. I think it was the wrong move to hide the names. On that note I would urge all that attended to post here explaining their reasoning behind attending the meeting.

Its ok we have their names already.

Dr_Pepper

kiwi84000 wrote: »

I have been told that the major forces behind it attempted to join and were refused.

This is the very root of our split.
People not arming themselves with the knowledge that is freely available out there.

You said the Major players, yet to date only MIA have applied and withdrawn.
Yes, they were NOT refused, but they pulled their application. TWICE.
So peter i implore you to read the IAA documentation on MIA's application for affiliation, before you proceed any further.
Here the link,
http://irishairsoft.ie/?p=83

Any questions? Send them to me.
chairperson@irishairsoft.ie

Puding

I can see on the new forum that they will be making an announcement shortly. I can only hope it is informing people how to join.

but again the major decisions have been made and passed already. the originally point was about players being involved in the discussions, this can not happen it would seem,

gandalf

Puding wrote: »

but again the major decisions have been made and passed

Ah but remember its open and transparent. They have their best interests at heart.

hrta

Also I am currently distributing the names of the attendees who voted without objection to those that think like me and will be excluding my business from those businesses. I do this as a airsoft player. The others I am in contact with are the same age demographic as me. Older and with larger disposable incomes. Nice way to alienate your customers.

Can you send me these names gandalf, thanks.

paul.

gandalf

Paul they are on the way to you.

FingalAirsoft

Who's side are you ON?

This is all bull**** about a split in the community and that the IASRA only have commercial interests at heart, there were players and team captains at that meeting too.
The very fact that the IAA are 2 years old does not give them the defacto right to speak for every airsofter/ retailer and site in Ireland; and they don't have the support of the whole community.... fact!

Which is why this association has come about to try and unite the community and it is the same IAA clique who are trying to discredit it on this very thread, they must feel very threatened by this to vent at one person in particular and say he is the driving force behind this group, that is simply not true as I have been supporting this as have other people too that don't have commercial interests.

Nothing is set in stone and I hope the statement to follow from the IASRA will put some minds at ease.


Bren

P.S. My name is on that list you guys are talking about! Just in case anybody is wondering.

gandalf

Bren and others what the hell did you expect. You and the others involved in this misadventure have handled this extremely badly.

You do not represent airsoft players at all based on the information at hand and from my point of view the vision being put forward is a near nightmare one where businesses are in control of airsoft as a sport. Unless this announcement is the disbanding of the new organisation or a real dialogue opened with the IAA to bury the past like adults it will be of no interest to me.

Lemming

I would like to thank Pred_Bull & Falls for making extremely well thought out and to the point posts. Far better than I could have done and in Bull's case, having the experience of UKARA & the VCRA to speak with credibility.

Now ...

FingalAirsoft, kiwi et al.

A question I would like answered personally. This new body purports to represent everybody; players, retailers, & sites. They even went and had a meeting with the DOJ claiming to represent the entire spectrum of the community without ever consulting the community (i.e. being ratified before-hand). Why were no reasonable representations made to the player community before now?

With that question comes a related one; how can the IASRA claim to represent the lpayers when they never notified the players and never asked them to endorse them, and yet approached the DoJ in what I can only consider to be the HEIGHT of arrogance and false, dishonest representation.



Edit: an after-thought to answer Tigger's question; "no".

Gandalf, I too would like a copy of that list of names please.

kiwi84000

Things have changed considerably since that meeting 4 days ago. At that stage we were threatened with our sport being gone for good.

I stand by my decision to attend the meeting.

I stand by my decision to vote in favor of the constitution as a last resort to save our sport.

While the constitution was passed without objection it was not passed without discussion or changes.

If you feel that you cannot attend my site for attended this meeting to save the sport please feel free to never cross the threshold of it.

If the IAA had announced what they knew beforehand we would not be in this situation.

I will wait to see the announcement posted by the IASRA before posting in this thread again as I have stated that I heard about this the day beforehand, what happened at the meeting, why we attended and my personal views on the matter.

FingalAirsoft

gandalf wrote: »

Bren and others what the hell did you expect. You and the others involved in this misadventure have handled this extremely badly.
Time will tell?

You do not represent airsoft players at all based on the information at hand and from my point of view the vision being put forward is a near nightmare one where businesses are in control of airsoft as a sport.
Ok that will not happen, period!
Unless this announcement is the disbanding of the new organisation (Won't happen) or a real dialogue opened with the IAA to bury the past like adults it will be of no interest to me.

I'm sure there will be dialogue with the IAA, but the context or content I'm not sure of?

Look there is no point speculating about what they stand for or what they don't stand for, you guys are all jumping the gun (no pun intended) wait and see what the IASRA have to say on the matter.



Bren

gandalf

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Things have changed considerably since that meeting 4 days ago. At that stage we were threatened with our sport being gone for good.

I stand by my decision to attend the meeting.

I stand by my decision to vote in favor of the constitution as a last resort to save our sport.

While the constitution was passed without objection it was not passed without discussion or changes.

If you feel that you cannot attend my site for attended this meeting to save the sport please feel free to never cross the threshold of it.

If the IAA had announced what they knew beforehand we would not be in this situation.

I will wait to see the announcement posted by the IASRA before posting in this thread again as I have stated what happened at the meeting, why we attended and my personal views on the matter.

They announced what they knew at the AGM on Sunday the 14th of December 4 DAYS BEFORE THIS MEETING HAPPENED?

Here is the link of me reporting it from the AGM http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58260413&postcount=5.

Dr_Pepper

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Things have changed considerably since that meeting 4 days ago. At that stage we were threatened with our sport being gone for good.

I stand by my decision to attend the meeting.

I stand by my decision to vote in favor of the constitution as a last resort to save our sport.

While the constitution was passed without objection it was not passed without discussion or changes.

If you feel that you cannot attend my site for attended this meeting to save the sport please feel free to never cross the threshold of it.

If the IAA had announced what they knew beforehand we would not be in this situation.

I will wait to see the announcement posted by the IASRA before posting in this thread again as I have stated that I heard about this the day beforehand, what happened at the meeting, why we attended and my personal views on the matter.

Hey all your reasons are just and clear there is no issue there.
But can i ask if you read my last post about the IAA and MIA?


P.S reason has clearly gone awry here so i will also wait for their announement.
Also the IAA could not announce what they did until they could, which was when they did.

FingalAirsoft

Lemming wrote: »

FingalAirsoft, kiwi et al.

A question I would like answered personally. This new body purports to represent everybody; players, retailers, & sites. They even went and had a meeting with the DOJ claiming to represent the entire spectrum of the community without ever consulting the community (i.e. being ratified before-hand). Why were no reasonable representations made to the player community before now?

With that question comes a related one; how can the IASRA claim to represent the lpayers when they never notified the players and never asked them to endorse them, and yet approached the DoJ in what I can only consider to be the HEIGHT of arrogance and false, dishonest representation.

There has been no meeting with the D.O.J.
Where did you get that from?
Does the IAA not go into meetings with the D.O.J. claiming to represent the community as a whole?
Who gives them the right?

Witcher

ok..I've been reading this thread all day and have made some minor(useless) posts. I'm not gonna quote anyone and play quote tennis, I'm just gonna give a summary of my feelings on the different topics at hand here.

The IAA-God knows there not a more hated organisation walking the face of the Earth and really the hatred is for no good reason.people have made some points regarding the IAA and how the membership fee is absurd and not needed..this argument is frankly..flawed, golf clubs, football clubs and shooting clubs and the their representative bodies charge membership fee's and they charge alot more than the €30 euro of the IAA.

Let's be honest lads it isn't a whopper fee..it's equal to a days skirmishing and a bottle of bb's and it allows you to say"I've done something for the sport I love" and to criticize the IAA should you think they need it because really fellas if ya aren't a member you've no right to criticise their moves or policies.

I'm not a member and I've given them stick in the past but really I'd no right looking back.


Derek/MIA This guy has been the cause of many a thread on Boards as we all know and has made his opinions on the IAA quite clear..BUT leaving him out in the cold isn't a good thing...he has customers in his shop daily and what he tells them of the IAA has a bearing on their future joining/not joining. So it is better that he's pro rather than anti-IAA.

We don't know his motives for starting this new organisation but it can be assumed it's to do the IAA over.

The IAA/Derek/IASRA situation Now as we all know there's quite a division with the IAA and Derek and the reasons have been gone over and debated to dust..so we won't go over them again.

We've all said "Why doesn't Derek just go to the IAA and make up with them" and the answer is we don't know..we aren't Derek, he has his reasons I suppose. But I'd like to give solution to this dilemma if i may- have the IAA considered going down to MIA one morning and saying "Derek listen-we've had our differences but thats the way life is..lets make up for the good of airsoft, it's players, retailers and sites"?

I'm not going to tell the IAA what they should do im noit a member and have no right to tell them what they should do..but I know that because their fair lads and represent all players not just members that they will read my suggestion and at least consider it.

Finally- people have said that Derek burned his bridges with the IAA... people...bridges can be repaired, but they need effort from both sides to meet in the middle. I'd like to think the IAA and Derek can build that bridge and that he would join them and that a single airsoft body can be made and that they can work out the differences and find common ground.

Thanks for reading:)

gandalf

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

I'm sure there will be dialogue with the IAA, but the context or content I'm not sure of?

Look there is no point speculating about what they stand for or what they don't stand for, you guys are all jumping the gun (no pun intended) wait and see what the IASRA have to say on the matter.



Bren

Well as this organisation was based on panic, mistruths and misunderstandings I suggest you all look at your participation very closely.

Lemming

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

There has been no meeting with the D.O.J.
Where did you get that from?
Does the IAA not go into meetings with the D.O.J. claiming to represent the community as a whole?
Who gives them the right?

I believe there was a direct reference to a meeting with the DoJ and calls for the minutes to be put up ASAP from the IASRA meeting.

The IAA gave advance notice to the entire community and indeed was in an embrionic state for a very long time before being ratified by its members and consequently being taken seriously by the DoJ as a representative body. It's members include sites, retailers, and players from around the country (and indeed now has the capability to include & represent our northern brethern as well) and more importantly; they did not hide the fact of their existence or any AGM in which YOU, the member, could have had a direct say on policy.

I'd say that gives them a bit more of a right than some stealth-ninja organisation that suddenly pops out of nowhere and making grand claims.

edit: for your DoJ denial ...

8; 20 Kevin suggests that the minutes from the meeting with the DOJ be posted on the new forum everyone agrees

source

Now, I would like a retraction please.

Jay TLR

I have to admit, it's shameful the attitude some people are taking. Bans, and boycotts, and it mainly seems to be over 2 issues. A personal issue that a few 'respected' members of the community seem to be having with a particular retailer, and the issue of a database of AEG's. The issue with a database should be discussed here if people feel strongly about it, and they do seem to. It's a discussion forum and this is the appropriate place to work it out. But this personal **** is petty and does not belong here, whether the claims are founded or not. If our sport is in *crisis* then this childish squbbiling is only going to make it worse.

Once again I have to ask what the moderators are doing? They are usually heavy-handed about silly things like correct words to use and the like yet this personal bull**** is alowed to go on. I have been an administrator on an international bike forum for years and I am speachless once again by the biased nature of the moderation. If it was someone other than said 'respected' members of the community spouting the crap they've been coming out with it would be an instant ban.

kiwi84000

gandalf wrote: »

They announced what they knew at the AGM on Sunday the 14th of December 4 DAYS BEFORE THIS MEETING HAPPENED?

The 1st I heard of it was on Saturday when the IAA representatives arrived on my site. A quick look at the meeting minutes shows no mention of it.

Also quite interesting to note that when you take away the guests, commercial interests and committee members Past and present you have a grand total of 9 airsofters represented and voting.

Dr_Pepper wrote:

Hey all your reasons are just and clear there is no issue there.
But can i ask if you read my last post about the IAA and MIA?


P.S reason has clearly gone awry here so i will also wait for their announement.
Also the IAA could not announce what they did until they could, which was when they did.

I did read the announcement. It was quite concise. Point retracted regarding an attendee of the meeting being rejected from the IAA.

kiwi84000

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

There has been no meeting with the D.O.J.
Where did you get that from?

That was me Bren,

I said that there were discussions with the DoJ already. I should clear it up that the IASRA did not speak with the DoJ however attendees of the meeting did.

The IASRA did not officially start until last Thursday when the constitution was ratified.

Lemming

kiwi84000 wrote: »

I said that there were discussions with the DoJ already. I should clear it up that the IASRA did not speak with the DoJ however attendees of the meeting did.

Whom did those attendees claim to represent during their meeting. Obviously themselves. But whom did they say they claimed to represent during the duration of that meeting.


Edit: I also notice that transparency is alive and well since no names of just who exactly met with the DoJ is mentioned. Does this particular beating stick sound familiar?

kiwi84000

Lemming wrote: »

source

Now, I would like a retraction please.

To clarify that is for future meetings with DoJ

kiwi84000

Lemming wrote: »

Choose your response carefuly kiwi;

Whom did those attendees claim to represent during their meeting. Obviously themselves. But whom did they say they claimed to represent during the duration of that meeting.

Edit: I also notice that transparency is alive and well since no names of just who exactly met with the DoJ is mentioned. Does this particular beating stick sound familiar?

I would not know as I was not in attendance.

As far an individual people speaking to the DoJ is concerned, I do not know what was discussed. I did not ask what was discussed as it was not my place nor is it yours.

If that person claimed to be representing airsoft as a majority then I would agree that the minutes should be posted as I am arguing for with the IAA.

FingalAirsoft

Blay wrote: »

Derek/MIA This guy has been the cause of many a thread on Boards as we all know and has made his opinions on the IAA quite clear..BUT leaving him out in the cold isn't a good thing...he has customers in his shop daily and what he tells them of the IAA has a bearing on their future joining/not joining. So it is better that he's pro rather than anti-IAA.

We don't know his motives for starting this new organisation but it can be assumed it's to do the IAA over.

Again it has to be said that this is completely misinformed, Derek is one of many people who started this and to make an assumption like the one above clearly isn't helpful and is simply furthering needless (and incorrect) speculation on the matter.
No -one is attemting to 'do anyone over'

Witcher

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

Again it has to be said that this is completely misinformed, Derek is one of many people who started this and to make an assumption like the one above clearly isn't helpful and is simply furthering needless (and incorrect) speculation on the matter.
No -one is attemting to 'do anyone over'

I said it could be assumed that that's the reason..it's my opinion and the opinion of others too I'd bet..if you don't agree thats your choice.

Tommyboy71

kiwi84000 wrote: »

Also quite interesting to note that when you take away the guests, commercial interests and committee members Past and present you have a grand total of 9 airsofters represented and voting.

How many ordinary airsofters were invited to the IASRA meeting? I wasn't and I am airsofting for the last 11 months.

Lemming

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

How many ordinary airsofters were invited to the IASRA meeting? I wasn't and I am airsofting for the last 11 months.

Indeed, I'm still waiting for an answer to my earlier question regarding the player base and what reasonable attempts at representation were made to it.

Fallschirmjager

FingalAirsoft wrote: »

Who's side are you ON?

This is all bull**** about a split in the community and that the IASRA only have commercial interests at heart, there were players and team captains at that meeting too.
The very fact that the IAA are 2 years old does not give them the defacto right to speak for every airsofter/ retailer and site in Ireland; and they don't have the support of the whole community.... fact!

Which is why this association has come about to try and unite the community and it is the same IAA clique who are trying to discredit it on this very thread, they must feel very threatened by this to vent at one person in particular and say he is the driving force behind this group, that is simply not true as I have been supporting this as have other people too that don't have commercial interests.

Nothing is set in stone and I hope the statement to follow from the IASRA will put some minds at ease.


Bren

P.S. My name is on that list you guys are talking about! Just in case anybody is wondering.

okay, perhaps you can clarify this for me but first lets air some real facts.

we have about 1000-2000 players in Ireland (bear with me). Of course the IAA is flawed, or course its not perfect, its human. What never ceases to amaze me on these boards is this acceptance of nothing less then a perfect diamond. No such organisation exists on the planet like that. For about 2000 players we have the chance to create an organisation that has ALL our best interests at heart. All people had to do who were pissed off, was attend the agm and vote, end of clique (if it ever existed), end of anything you didnt agree with, but they chose this route.

Why didnt they try to convince the IAA and its members that there was a need for a commercial wing of the IAA?

Of course that is needed, but it needs to be within a framework that benefits us all, not a select few.Instead a meeting was called which excluded considerable numbers of people but included others. Why was it at short notice? all it too was a posting here by one of his suppoters. I find it had to believe people were told that morning to attend a meeting that evening and yet not one person, could take 5 minutes to post here...

Lets be honest, its a sad day in airsoft in ireland if hrta wasnt invited. FFS, paul is so grounded in reality, it amazes me how he can even get up in the morning, yet he was not included. i hate to point out but if you need proof a clique...you have just created it in the new group.


I believe it was Kiwi who said (forgive me if i am incorrect) that the commercial entities will pay for the running of the new group while all other members are free and its mandatory to join if you wish to purchase. I am sorry to have to break this to you but if you believe that that will guarantee equality going forward, well lets just say you have met better people in life then me or indeed all throughout the history of man. he who pays...controls. if you think otherwise, prepare thyself for a shock.

you admit the IAA is 2 years old and it does not have any defacto rights, on that we are agreed, HOWEVER it is incumbent on each of us to think of our SPORT rather then ourselves. The IAA is not a meet friends group, its about tying to do whats best for us all...and by all i mean all. by saying its 30 euro to join, its one PERSON one vote, it appears that is too much for some people here to accept. If you feel that some people in the IAA are friends, what do you expect after 2 years of close work. Thats human nature, it appears there quite an amount of latecomer begrudgery, that age old irish disease. if you want in...V>O>T>E. jesus its not difficult.


I would also like to point out that the IAA asked everyone for comments on what to say to the DOJ...did the new group do this?? Its a simple yes or no question.

how can you meet the DOJ on behalf of a group before it exists?

some moans on this very thread are about what was and wasnt said to the DOJ, yet he has no issue with this approach.

there may have been captains and teams there, but it is patently obvious if you care to look from the outside in....this is about suppliers controlling airsoft. i am sorry if you cant see that.

We had Pred_Bull explain the history of the UK fiasco. And yet here we are, duplicating history, repeating the same ole issues.

I have already posted that votes have consequences. i will never buy off the people who supported this fiasco. I am sorry if that includes you but it appears to me, rightly or wrongly, that you do not have my best interests at heart, whether you meant that or not, that is what is going to happen. i am simply not going to support a group that will lead to the eventual formation of a cartel of suppliers where the consumers/players are left like something stuck to your shoe, where like some atomoton, i turn up and tip my hat to the friendly suppliers and hand over my hard earned cash. Again that is my view. I have money to spend on aegs and sites, i will spend where i get the most value for money and what benefits my hobby...for me thats the stability of airsoft in Ireland, and not some group who because of childish grudge doesnt really care what happens so long as it stands atop the ash heap at the end...

i would like to wish you good luck with you endeavour, but quite frankly i would not be telling the truth...i can say this however, happy christmas, that i do mean.

FingalAirsoft

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

How many ordinary airsofters were invited to the IASRA meeting? I wasn't and I am airsofting for the last 11 months.

On my count there was 7 regular skirmishers present, again this was a meeting to discuss the formation of the organisation.

Puding

On my count there was 7 regular skirmishers present, again this was a meeting to discuss the formation of the organisation.

they where invited, everyone was invited this was a planned 'event', and i use the word event for a reason, who where these players? what teams do they play in and where do they play? where they all based in dublin? where is the representation.

Yes sorry i see you do indeed have player representation your chairperson is a player, in fact he is a team captain as far as im aware of a team sponsored by mia, and lets see who the vic chairperson is....

Again i would ask anyone who cares about the future of airsoft in Ireland to reread this thread and pay attention to the posts by are friends from northern Ireland. This are people with no vested interest for one side or the other there talking from experience.