What if we voted no to Lisbon again?

ionix5891

cozmik wrote: »

Har-de-har

Why would those who voted no want to vote again? It's only yes voters who want to change the outcome. So in a sense the no voters are being forced to vote again in order to defend the outcome of the referendum.

It's pathetic and it's not democracy.

ok then

what do you propose happens?

all the other EU countries asked our government to do something, and they chose another referendum as is required by our constitution (whether you like it or not)

what do you propose?

Ireland does nothing? after spending a decade negotiating this treaty theres no appetite to spend next decade doing the same (and ireland wont get as many concessions probably) in EU

read this document
http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf

the scenarios of not having a referendum or having another No vote are clearly examined in quite a detail, none of them are favourable to this country



im sick of No siders moaning but not putting forward any reasonable alternative for Ireland and the EU


the complete lack of understanding of basic politics and how democracy works from some of the posters here is disgraceful, do some research first please before rehashing the same tripe again

Thomas_S_Hunterson

ionix5891 wrote: »

Ireland does nothing? after spending a decade negotiating this treaty theres no appetite to spend next decade doing the same (and ireland wont get as many concessions probably) in EU

So we drop it

We voted no. That should be it.

The EU staff should pick themselves up, go back to their high paying jobs and deal with it.

ionix5891 wrote: »

im sick of No siders moaning but not putting forward any reasonable alternative for Ireland and the EU

Leavign things as they are is a perfectly reasonably alternative. Things are good. Life is good.

ionix5891

Sean_K wrote: »

So we drop it

We voted no. That should be it.

The EU staff should pick themselves up, go back to their high paying jobs and deal with it.

obviously majority of the other EU members don't agree with you, otherwise they wouldn't have signed the treaty and asked for Ireland's opinion again (which is quite democratic, not being given a vote is undemocratic)

they are giving Ireland another choice

scenarios resulting from choice this country takes is described in the link below

do read it, its quite interesting

http://www.ucd.ie/dei/DEI_report_to_Oireachtas_12_Nov_08_FINAL.pdf


whether you like it or not the ball is in our half and all eyes are on Ireland...

evercloserunion

cozmik wrote: »

Nor do I

All I know is the people have already spoken and now they must do so again whether or not they want to.

Please address the rest of my post.

Furious-Dave

Sean_K wrote: »

So we drop it

We voted no. That should be it.

The EU staff should pick themselves up, go back to their high paying jobs and deal with it.

Leaving things as they are is a perfectly reasonably alternative. Things are good. Life is good.

I'm unemployed, a lot of my friends are unemployed and one will have to emigrate to find a job. How exactly do you reckon "things are good"? WAKE UP!!!

I'm not saying that ratifying the Lisbon Treaty will improve the situation but you don't seem to realise that there is NO just dropping the matter. The EU wants to move forward. If Ireland wants to remain in the Union it will have to ratify some sort of treaty sooner or later that will allow this movement. Otherwise we risk the EU moving on without us. However they manage to do it I don't know but they will find a way. And if they don't there will political doldrums in Europe.

cozmik

ionix5891 wrote: »

ok then

what do you propose happens?

I propose we don't attempt to undo the will of the people. The Irish people have said NO to Lisbon and that's the way it is. (whether you like it or not.)

Disonyxiated

Right, so I'm not going to bother quoting everybody above me. I'm sure that if you are reading this thread then you've already been keeping an eye on the posts before me so I'm just gonna jump right in...

Thought #1. Lisbon II, a case of sore losers?

So, the government wants us to vote again because they weren't happy with the last decision! I have to admit that I was pretty happy with the outcome. Although I wasn't personally involved in campaigning or anything I was a decided no-voter & nervously awaited the announcement that we had won.

But the government wasn't as happy with the outcome, so we've to do it all again? Now, any of you who say that it is perfectly okay for them to keep on asking us again & again, answer me this... Had the Yes-Side won, would Sinn Fein & Libertas be able to get a second-chance!? I certainly doubt it.

The government is determined to get this treaty through. As a result the democratic process is being manipulated to force us to vote again for something we have already clearly declined. Think of the same situation in a non political setting...

''Heads or Tails?''
''Hmm, heads.''
''It's Tails.''
''Crap,best of Three?''

If the idea that we can have votes again & again because we are not happy with the decision was upheld then surely the opposition should use the opportunity to reverse the general election, since we are all regretting that decision!

This alone should open the eyes of the undecided to the goings-on in the new ''EU Federal Government'' malarkey which is being proposed! Ireland is the only state in the EU where the people were actually given the chance to make this decision. Now we are being told that our democratic voice is only acceptable when we are singing the same tune as the EU & the government!

We voted no in June, but that was obviously not the right decision now we gotta vote again, this is not how democracy works, this is a clear attempt to bully the people into accepting the treaty. After all it worked with Nice II didn't it!? O.o


Thought #2. A chance to scare us into voting Yes!?

Hmm, so they reckon that we all voted no because we just didn't understand the facts last time around. Am I the only No-Voter to notice the bombardment of negative news reports since the last referendum. Seem like Libertas & the rest of the 'misguided' no side have been blamed for everything from the recession to unemployment, to Eoghan Quigg not winning the X-Factor. O.o

Does this mean that the no side should also be blamed for the wasting of our tax money by top government ministers which has emerged in recent weeks!? Should we continue to trust these 'representatives' who clearly don't represent our popular vote!? Is this how the new EU will work!?

...

Just a few thoughts... I'm not usually political, really.

Furious-Dave

First things first - Welcome to Boards.ie Disonyxiated

Now with regards to your post. I accept that there are a lot of people, including some who may be in the Government, who simply want another referendum because they didn't get the result they wanted the first time. The flip side to that particular coin is that a lot of No voters don't want another referendum because they did get the result they wanted and want to hang onto it. I don't believe that all the main political parties, bar one who have their own agenda, would be for ratification if it were not in the interests of Ireland.

sink

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Is this how the new EU will work!?

First try finding out how this EU works!

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Just a few thoughts... I'm not usually political, really.

That's fairly evident as your entire post was high on rhetoric but contained little fact or clear argument.

Spend some time reading a few of these websites.

EU Websites

Disonyxiated

Thanks a million for your replies! Sink, you have definitely compiled a lovely list of European websites there & I can assure you that I have read through them all prior to making a post, but thanks for reminding me!

Just before I get to the point though, while I did say I am not very 'political', I never said that I do not understand politics & the political process both in the EU & here at home.

So, you have stated that my post was, let me see... ''high on rhetoric but contained little fact or clear argument'', gonna have to disagree you on that one. Yes it is high in rhetoric, I have done a bit of debating in the past & tend to slip back into that when I am being passionate about something. But to say that I don't provide a clear argument is completely unjustified & seems like an attack on my views, especially given that you haven't offered a clear argument yourself in this thread. Posting the list of websites as your counterargument hardly justifies as a response.

The main argument which I am trying to bring across here is that the entire democratic process in Ireland has been trampled on by a government determined to get this treaty through. Giving another referendum for the same treaty a mere 1½ years after the last one is unbelievable!

Think of other recent events in other democratic countries. Imagine the Republicans had decided that Obama's election wasn't the result they wanted & decided to run the election again next year. This is not how democracy works.

The Lisbon Treaty, presented to the Irish people in 2008 was voted against by the majority of the Irish people.[1] The voice of the Irish people should be respected. This is my argument. I know that I am not the only person on this island who feels that the government has blatantly ignored our democratic voice by pushing this treaty on us yet again.

Dave, you were 100% right when you said that no voters, myself included, don't want a second referendum because we did get the result last time around. Obviously. It's like passing your driving test first time around & being told that it has to be done again.

Basically what I am saying here is, that Ireland & the Irish people are being side-lined. The government has already shown us that our voice is less important than that of parliamentarians over in Brussels. If you are a dedicated Yes voter, I don't imagine that anything I say, or type will change your views. I just feel that the treaty has been rejected & this should have been respected by the EU & the Irish Government. By not respecting the Irish no vote they have highlighted that they are willing to ignore the virtues of democracy which they preach.

Furious-Dave

Disonyxiated wrote: »

I just feel that the treaty has been rejected & this should have been respected by the EU & the Irish Government. By not respecting the Irish no vote they have highlighted that they are willing to ignore the virtues of democracy which they preach.

The treaty was rejected, that is true, but only by 53% percent of those who voted, some of whom have since said that given another chance they would either vote yes or not vote at all. The main reason why I want a second referendum, as I have said to others, is that I feel that they made a balls of the first one. If there was a second referendum, where people were properly informed and the lies made by both sides were exposed as such, I would be satisfied, even if the result was again 'No'. Ok I would be disappointed, but I'd be satisfied.

hallstatt

its a disgrace to have a second vote to be honest. Its just bully tactics and defeats the very porpose of having a vote.... duh.....can you imagine the us presidential elections sayin... wait obama is black thats not what we want... were going to have another vote till you get it right and vote mccain therd be uproar.if the yes vote won do you think the no side would have a chance at another vote????? but in little old ireland we follow like sheep.But too be honest i can only see the economy **** really hittin the fan next year and i can see more people voting no this time round to try and "get back" at the government

sink

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Thanks a million for your replies! Sink, you have definitely compiled a lovely list of European websites there & I can assure you that I have read through them all prior to making a post, but thanks for reminding me!

Just before I get to the point though, while I did say I am not very 'political', I never said that I do not understand politics & the political process both in the EU & here at home.

So, you have stated that my post was, let me see... ''high on rhetoric but contained little fact or clear argument'', gonna have to disagree you on that one. Yes it is high in rhetoric, I have done a bit of debating in the past & tend to slip back into that when I am being passionate about something. But to say that I don't provide a clear argument is completely unjustified & seems like an attack on my views, especially given that you haven't offered a clear argument yourself in this thread. Posting the list of websites as your counterargument hardly justifies as a response.

The main argument which I am trying to bring across here is that the entire democratic process in Ireland has been trampled on by a government determined to get this treaty through. Giving another referendum for the same treaty a mere 1½ years after the last one is unbelievable!

As outlined by Bunreacht na hÉireann once a constitutional amendment has passed both houses of the Oireachtas it passes to the citizens for a plebiscite. The Oireachtas is not restricted in any fashion to holding as many referenda as it wishes but it cannot amend the constitution without the amendment being passed by the people. If the people are not happy with the Oireachtas passing amendments and the resulting plebiscites they can be replaced in a general election. This is the democratic process laid down by our constitution and the government are in no way trampling upon it, they are in fact following it to the letter.

What could be their motivation? I am sure they value their jobs but they're risking loosing them by calling a second referenda. Whatever their motivation it must be pretty strong. As outlined in this report if Ireland fails to move forward in any sort of fashion the other members states will in no doubt seek an agreement excluding Ireland. There are only four likely scenarios.

1. A ‘New’ Lisbon Treaty with an Altered Ratification Process without Irish involvement
2. Denunciation of Existing Treaties and Adoption of New Treaty excluding Ireland
3. Leaving EU as Empty Shell in Two-Tier Europe isolating Ireland
4. Ireland Moving from EU to EEA

Which of those outcomes do you prefer?

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Think of other recent events in other democratic countries. Imagine the Republicans had decided that Obama's election wasn't the result they wanted & decided to run the election again next year. This is not how democracy works.

That is a deeply flawed analogy for several reasons.

1. It is at the behest of the government that referenda are held whereas elections are mandated by the constitution at least every 5 years.
2. The US constitution clearly dictates when presidential elections take place and the only way to change that is with a constitutional amendment. Just to propose a constitutional amendment requires a super majority (two thirds) of both houses of congress. It then has to be ratified by 3/4 of all states through their own legislatures. That no easy task and any attempt to alter the US election cycle will no doubt fail.
3. If you don't like the governments calls for multiple referenda you don't have to vote for them next election. That is how our democracy works.

Disonyxiated wrote: »

The Lisbon Treaty, presented to the Irish people in 2008 was voted against by the majority of the Irish people.[1] The voice of the Irish people should be respected. This is my argument. I know that I am not the only person on this island who feels that the government has blatantly ignored our democratic voice by pushing this treaty on us yet again.

Dave, you were 100% right when you said that no voters, myself included, don't want a second referendum because we did get the result last time around. Obviously. It's like passing your driving test first time around & being told that it has to be done again.

While I can understand your sentiment it is not rational to compare the ratification of an international treaty with major implications if it either passes or fails to a driving test.

Disonyxiated wrote: »

Basically what I am saying here is, that Ireland & the Irish people are being side-lined. The government has already shown us that our voice is less important than that of parliamentarians over in Brussels. If you are a dedicated Yes voter, I don't imagine that anything I say, or type will change your views. I just feel that the treaty has been rejected & this should have been respected by the EU & the Irish Government. By not respecting the Irish no vote they have highlighted that they are willing to ignore the virtues of democracy which they preach.

The peoples vote is of absolute importance, if you doubt that just check to see if there has been any constitutional amendments without the passing of a referenda. You have not outlined any reason as to why the treaty is bad. You have only argued that it is undemocratic to hold a second referenda and by implication that the constitution of Ireland is undemocratic. An argument which I reject.

Keith186

jpfahy wrote: »

I think we should also have another Divorce Referendum while we're at it. Funny how we kept having them until we voted it in and we haven't had one since....

Maybe we could have a referendum day every year and redo all the referendums again to see how we feel at the time, abortion anyone?

I think you're right.

It's good to reflect when you can see the effects a decision has had but it would usually take a while to see the full effects, i.e. a couple generations or more on the divorce referendum would be a good timeline as opposed to every year.


Regarding the original post, who knows what will happen if we vote no again?

I wonder if the conspiracy theory forum predicted a recession? A lot of highly paid supposed experts on the subject didn't (although some did and they were gonna be right some day at least!).

I'm pretty sure I'm going to vote no again and I do think after reflection that Lisbon is welcome to a second vote if it has been amended in such away that properly addresses the issues that a lot of people had about it, it may swing a majority and that's democracy. Denying ~500 million other people to a vote isn't democracy whatever way you look at it though.

Yes there are systems in other EU countries where a public vote is not required which where probably put in place by a democratic decision a very long time ago but when there is such a resistance to it by some countries it seems that they are getting conned and I think the Lisbon Treaty will make this easier in the future by creating a mechanism where ultimately the people will get less of a say and won't be able to do anything about it.

Making a few concessions to Ireland regarding EU Commissioners, tax breaks and abortions is all worthwhile but it's no skin of the back of the EU as a whole if they can get this through.

PS, I just re-read this and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist just because I mentioned that forum at the start.

Furious-Dave

hallstatt wrote: »

its a disgrace to have a second vote to be honest. Its just bully tactics and defeats the very porpose of having a vote.... duh.....can you imagine the us presidential elections sayin... wait obama is black thats not what we want... were going to have another vote till you get it right and vote mccain therd be uproar.if the yes vote won do you think the no side would have a chance at another vote????? but in little old ireland we follow like sheep.But too be honest i can only see the economy **** really hittin the fan next year and i can see more people voting no this time round to try and "get back" at the government

Using a 'No' vote as a tool to hurt the Government would not only hurt them but in fact the whole of Ireland. Bare in mind that 'No' means no to the Lisbon Treaty not no to the EU in general. And so, even if there is another result of 'No' all it means is that the EU will have to renegotiate the Treaty. That's many years more work and will in fact be hurt the next Government as well as the current one. Though it seems that the "Vote No to hurt the Government" crowd haven't considered this...surprise surprise.:rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Disonyxiated wrote:

But the government wasn't as happy with the outcome, so we've to do it all again? Now, any of you who say that it is perfectly okay for them to keep on asking us again & again, answer me this... Had the Yes-Side won, would Sinn Fein & Libertas be able to get a second-chance!? I certainly doubt it.

The government is determined to get this treaty through. As a result the democratic process is being manipulated to force us to vote again for something we have already clearly declined. Think of the same situation in a non political setting...

''Heads or Tails?''
''Hmm, heads.''
''It's Tails.''
''Crap,best of Three?''

Or possibly:

LISBON SALESMAN: "Would you like a better deal on your health insurance?"
JIMMY: "What's in it for me?"
LISBON SALESMAN: "Well, you can see for yourself, sir."
JIMMY: "No, feck off, that's an awful complex document! How do I know it won't wind up making me have the compulsory abortions - or the conscription charges?"
NICE SALESMAN: "Quite right Jimmy. If you don't know, just say No."
...
WIFE: "D'ye know, Jimmy, I'm awful sorry we didn't take that new deal on the insurance. Me banks are killing me, and the operation is terrible expensive."
JIMMY: "Ah bollix to them. Sure we've survived worse, even if it was by running away ta England. Anyways, I tole him No, and that's me last word."
WIFE: "Well, did ye at least read the thing?"
JIMMY: "Wha'? A feckin' great big legal book like that? Ye'd need yer head examined! I've no time to read that kind of ****e."
NICE SALESMAN: "Quite right Jimmy. I reckon they made it deliberately complicated."
...
LISBON SALESMAN: "Are you sure you don't want a better deal?"
JIMMY: "Jesus Christ are ye thick? What part of No did ye not understand!? The cheek of ye, ye lousy muppeh!"
WIFE: "Ah Jimmy, g'wan, maybe we should think about it. Is there anythin' in it about de banks?"
JIMMY: "For feck's sake - I tole him No, and there's a feckin' end on it. He's imposin' on me free will, askin' me again. Catch me changin' me mind like some bleedin' woman! Now feck off you and don't let me see ye round here 'til I elect ye again."
NICE SALESMAN: "Quite right Jimmy. It's an outrage, that fellow asking you again. Particularly since everything is his fault anyway. Now, how about you and me sit down and discuss whether you actually need health insurance at all?"

cordially,
Scofflaw

ionix5891

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Using a 'No' vote as a tool to hurt the Government would not only hurt them but in fact the whole of Ireland. Bare in mind that 'No' means no to the Lisbon Treaty not no to the EU in general. And so, even if there is another result of 'No' all it means is that the EU will have to renegotiate the Treaty. That's many years more work and will in fact be hurt the next Government as well as the current one. Though it seems that the "Vote No to hurt the Government" crowd haven't considered this...surprise surprise.:rolleyes:

There wont be a renogitation of the treaty, out of all the possible outcomes outlines in the pdf posted previously this is the least likely

as that would mean another decade of negotiations (for which none of the other countries have appetite for) and ireland not getting as good as deal as we have shown our cards and shown our middle finger

murphaph

sink wrote: »

A ‘New’ Lisbon Treaty with an Altered Ratification Process without Irish involvement

Presumably any such new treaty would need ratification by all the other states. There is no guarantee they would all do such a thing. They would have to avoid public referenda in many states where the ordinary people could easily vote no, after seeing how 'democracy' in the EU really works (against Ireland or anyone who dares question the 'project'). In any case, the United Kingdom would never ratify such a treaty, public referendum or not.

sink wrote: »

Denunciation of Existing Treaties and Adoption of New Treaty excluding Ireland

You mean, like the Constitution which denounced all previous treaties and started afresh....but which was rejected by 2 founder members of the EEC? Absolutely no guarantee that they would be able to get that through. I would go so far as to say such a thing would probably require a referendum in France at least and would fail there as the constitution did.

sink wrote: »

Leaving EU as Empty Shell in Two-Tier Europe isolating Ireland

This would require so much money as to be obscene. The ordinary joes of Europe would see their taxes paying for this empty shell and would not be best pleased.

sink wrote: »

Ireland Moving from EU to EEA

But we have to go voluntarily.

sink wrote: »

Which of those outcomes do you prefer?
Which one of them woud the civil servants in Brussels prefer? None of them are palatable to those career 'project' managers either!

Any of the above 'radical' processes will highlight even more that the EU project does not tolerate dissent from the plebs. The french plebs and the dutch plebs and the irish plebs al said no and a 'way' has been found to totally ignore their wishes (don't give me the old "the french and dutch were asked what the problems were and were addressed in Lisbon BS please). Momentum will gather amongst the plebs if any radical move is made against Ireland. This could go many ways....not just the 4 outcomes listed above. This could lead to radical change in Europe.

sink

murphaph wrote: »

Any of the above 'radical' processes will highlight even more that the EU project does not tolerate dissent from the plebs. The french plebs and the dutch plebs and the irish plebs al said no and a 'way' has been found to totally ignore their wishes (don't give me the old "the french and dutch were asked what the problems were and were addressed in Lisbon BS please). Momentum will gather amongst the plebs if any radical move is made against Ireland. This could go many ways....not just the 4 outcomes listed above. This could lead to radical change in Europe.

Any of those scenarios would only arise after a significant period of Ireland procrastinating and sitting on it's hands by which stage the patience of the plebs not just the politicians on mainland Europe might have run out of patience with us. We are far more likely to come to some sort of arrangement such as complete opt-outs of CFSP and JHA before then.

However I cannot nor can the experts see any possible way to get a better deal from Europe than the one that's on the table now. Every other option sees us loose influence and power while gaining very little that's tangible. The status quo cannot and will not exist for any length of time, not when there are so many pushing for change.

Furious-Dave

ionix5891 wrote: »

There wont be a renogitation of the treaty, out of all the possible outcomes outlines in the pdf posted previously this is the least likely

as that would mean another decade of negotiations (for which none of the other countries have appetite for) and ireland not getting as good as deal as we have shown our cards and shown our middle finger

I think to say that we've given our middle finger without even looking what we're giving it at would be more accurate

Man we're so screwed! Funny, there's those totalitarian ideas coming into my head again

hallstatt

Furious-Dave wrote: »

I think to say that we've given our middle finger without even looking what we're giving it at would be more accurate

Man we're so screwed! Funny, there's those totalitarian ideas coming into my head again

I dont give a monkeys anyway what happens.but I distinctly remember brian cowen being asked last year had he read the treaty in full and he said something along the lines of "no I hadnt time" . So this is our countrys leader tellin us to vote on something he hadnt even read in full. Yea...... right so ted :D I'll vote yes if you say so

Furious-Dave

hallstatt wrote: »

I dont give a monkeys anyway what happens.but I distinctly remember brian cowen being asked last year had he read the treaty in full and he said something along the lines of "no I hadnt time" . So this is our countrys leader tellin us to vote on something he hadnt even read in full. Yea...... right so ted :D I'll vote yes if you say so

Hey I didn't vote for those retards. I hate FF, but I didn't let that sway my opinion in the referendum. When ever a referendum comes along I think it's best to just ignore the Government, the current one anyway, and educate oneself on the matter.

Scofflaw

hallstatt wrote: »

I dont give a monkeys anyway what happens.but I distinctly remember brian cowen being asked last year had he read the treaty in full and he said something along the lines of "no I hadnt time" . So this is our countrys leader tellin us to vote on something he hadnt even read in full. Yea...... right so ted :D I'll vote yes if you say so

Much the same gets said about McCreevy, who actually said:

I don’t think there’s anybody in this room who has read it cover to cover. I don’t expect ordinary decent Irish people will be sitting down spending hours reading sections about sub-sections referring to other articles and sub-articles, but there is sufficient analysis done and people have put together a consolidated text which is quite easy to read ...Anyone who thinks that, as the reality and inevitability of EU enlargement has taken hold, that we can continue to tackle urgent problems without streamlining of the decision-making process is failing to face up to reality.

cordially,
Scofflaw

murphaph

Does the language of McCreevy (and countless politicians and eurocrats) of "Inevetibility of enlargement" not scare anyone else? Why is it inevitible exactly? That sort of language scares me anyway.

ionix5891

will find out after the next No vote

read the pdf link posted earlier if you want more details on possible outcomes

astrofool

murphaph wrote: »

Does the language of McCreevy (and countless politicians and eurocrats) of "Inevetibility of enlargement" not scare anyone else? Why is it inevitible exactly? That sort of language scares me anyway.

The "has taken hold" bit would imply to me that it has already happened, e.g. with the eastern bloc countries joining, and into the future with Croatia/Turkey etc. It's not exactly sinister in any way (unless you frequent CT forum a lot).

ionix5891

PlantPot wrote: »

Because it was planned over 50 years ago. You are just living through a business plan.

Do you not recall Mickey Martin saying that the NO would throw all their time schedules out? Now what are you talking about Mickey, are the masses just being herded down a set path??? You bet they are.

The whole "democracy" thing is a joke, you are free to do exactly as they tell you. Get over it, or else kick up a fuss, but don't mouth on about democracy.

can i haz sum of the plant pot yourz smoking

http://40.media.vimeo.com/d1/5/53/88/63/thumbnail-53886364.jpg



comeone quit with the whole conspiracy craic, its not cool :cool:


if you really believe you have no say in the Irish democracy then go and smoke more pot and stop posting here please

the fact that we get referendums and the opinion of the people asked only shows how strong our democratic processes are, Lisbon is not gonna take that from us, Neither did Nice and every other EU treaty before that, despite what sein fein who didnt event want us joining the EU claimed (without EU we would be selling potatoes and fish not microchips and software)

Furious-Dave

PlantPot wrote: »

Again the whole thing fly's right over your head.

Just as the moral of Scofflaw's story has flown over yours :rolleyes:

sink

PlantPot wrote: »

Because it was planned over 50 years ago. You are just living through a business plan.

So the EU planned for the fall of the Soviet Union even before it had risen to it's height of power? That's pretty impressive foresight, in fact they must have a time machine.

PlantPot wrote: »

Do you not recall Mickey Martin saying that the NO would throw all their time schedules out? Now what are you talking about Mickey, are the masses just being herded down a set path??? You bet they are.

Perhaps, I don't know, just maybe he was talking about the timetable of the European parliamentary elections in June and the selection of a new European Commission in October and not a global nwo conspiracy.

PlantPot wrote: »

The whole "democracy" thing is a joke, you are free to do exactly as they tell you. Get over it, or else kick up a fuss, but don't mouth on about democracy.

Is somebody holding a gun to your head? If you can't say for risk of having your head blown off just don't reply and I'll take it that's the case.

ionix5891

i see a lucrative market in potato peelers and tinfoil hats emerging once we leave the EU :rolleyes: