What if we voted no to Lisbon again?

Scofflaw

mysterious wrote: »

Ah the lisbon treaty. Are we ready for actual common sense. You better hear it.


RIGHT. Let's begin. Take a deep breath. Filter the lisbon bull**** out of your head.

NOW.
Irish government disrespected our vote.
EU elite and media (not the majority of the ppl btw)

1. We are a democracy. This was clearly breached and disrespected.
2. The elite represent we the people, in this case they clearly don't.
3. The lisbon treaty was designed to be misrepresented, the government foolishy thought we the irish ppl would vote yes out of ignorance.
4. The lisbon treaty is not about irish or European interests. It's about absaloute power, united states of Europe, "dumb replica of America"


Now all I'll say to all you Irish fellows. If you vote yes, your quite simply a sheep. To be really precise you have no self respect, since your leader's and Europe did not respect your voice, so if you vote yes, then your not far from been in an idiot.

Ba-ah.

Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce

To the OP:

My view on it is that if the next vote is no, the EU should move on without us., and we should be denied the benefits of closer integration. Iceland is part of the free-trade area, and they're doing just fine without the political side of the EU.

evercloserunion

[QUOTE]1. We are a democracy. This was clearly breached and disrespected.[/QUOTE]
Yes... because we had a vote, and we voted against the government ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, so then the government didn't ratify the Lisbon Treaty, and now we're going to have another vote where we will be allowed once again to decide exactly what our government does...

OH THE TYRANNY!

2. The elite represent we the people, in this case they clearly don't.

I guess we shouldn't have voted for them then.

3. The lisbon treaty was designed to be misrepresented, the government foolishy thought we the irish ppl would vote yes out of ignorance.

But instead we voted No out of ignorance? Hardly a better reflection on us is it?

4. The lisbon treaty is not about irish or European interests. It's about absaloute power, united states of Europe, "dumb replica of America"

So much rhetoric, so little evidence to back it up...

Now all I'll say to all you Irish fellows. If you vote yes, your quite simply a sheep. To be really precise you have no self respect, since your leader's and Europe did not respect your voice, so if you vote yes, then your not far from been in an idiot.

Sticks and stones!

WooPeeA

mysterious wrote: »

Ah the lisbon treaty. Are we ready for actual common sense. You better hear it.


RIGHT. Let's begin. Take a deep breath. Filter the lisbon bull**** out of your head.

NOW.
Irish government disrespected our vote.
EU elite and media (not the majority of the ppl btw)

1. We are a democracy. This was clearly breached and disrespected.
2. The elite represent we the people, in this case they clearly don't.
3. The lisbon treaty was designed to be misrepresented, the government foolishy thought we the irish ppl would vote yes out of ignorance.
4. The lisbon treaty is not about irish or European interests. It's about absaloute power, united states of Europe, "dumb replica of America"

5. mysterious just proved that never read the Treaty and tries to explain what the Treaty is.

oscarBravo

Don't feed the troll.

lurrrvs2sp00ge

I used to have no opinion on this matter until I watched the hour long special of questions and answers with my grandmother, exciting night in I’m sure you can imagine. I'm not one to get pushed by politics but i have to say it pissed me off quite a bit when we voted no. I'm sorry I have to refer to mysterious comment about ignorance. Why would people say yes to something they didn’t understand? If anything, ignorance would repel them from the concept, which is exactly what happened. We are a notoriously lazy nation whose only way of fully understanding the treaty without any propaganda of extremist views was by reading a book way too long to read. And now after the EU making this country financially successful (excluding the past few months lol), we throw it back in their face and expect to still be seen as a respected member

mysterious

WooPeeA wrote: »

5. mysterious just proved that never read the Treaty and tries to explain what the Treaty is.

I did read it.

---

You vote yes.

You get another treaty.

you vote yes again.

You get another treaty.

Until you have so many laws signed, you will have as much rights as sheep.
If the Sheep votes no. The elite just just rolls it out again, So they ask you vote yes again. But sheep will always be sheep. Oh well, i must be wrong.

Then what happens?? see what's happening to the constitution in America stripping away bit by bit. This is what the bigger picture is. This is what's going to happen here. Don't believe me, I'm just stating reality. To be honest I couldn't care less. I like to be aware. I just like to open my eyes and see the wood for the trees.

mysterious

lurrrvs2sp00ge wrote: »

I'm not one to get pushed by politics but i have to say it pissed me off quite a bit when we voted no.

Why?
It pissed me off, The elite didnt hear our voice, (we voted for these people to represent us and our voice) Almost half the no voters knew why they voted NO, the other half voted no cus the lisbon treaty is fishy to be quite blunt. IMO it's designed that way. It's contradictory. So bloody confusing. Why should people vote yes to something they are not familar with. It's deceptive. Thats the bottom line.

I tell you what pissed me right off.
Your leader (not mine btw) Brian cowen was in a conference prior to the election and was asked did you read the treaty, and he said no. But he stil sad vote yes............. Your leader, and the government at the time, didn't bother to rally the yes vote. What should that tell you. Yet they say oh well vote for "Europe cus its sweet". If Europe is so sweet, why didnt they listen to our concerns. Like be civilized and ask us why we voted no. Instead they bullied us. Oh yeah you keep your head in the sand. This is me saying it pro European. Still doesn't defer the fact I'm not at all sitting well with the direction of Europe at the minute. They are supposed to be adults running the continent not bullies. Did you ever hear of compromise. You have how many elites, 14 of them couldn't come to any compromise or conclusion to this treaty with our needs and requirements of this treaty. But another revote? This is supposed to be a democratic society. Seriously do you any of you realise how delusional this is.

It's appalling. I'm well aware of the behaviour and attitude going on with our leaders and the leaders of Europe. It's downright disgusting.

I'm sorry I have to refer to mysterious comment about ignorance. Why would people say yes to something they didn’t understand? If anything, ignorance would repel them from the concept, which is exactly what happened.

Alot of people did understand, some didnt however and the ignorannce and misunderstanding with the treaty led to the latter result of NO. This makes logic sense.

We are a notoriously lazy nation whose only way of fully understanding the treaty without any propaganda of extremist views was by reading a book way too long to read.

That applies to every nation. That is why it was designed that way to make it complicated. Do you honestly believe that the Elites didnt know this? or that it would be impossible to disect. Ireland was the only country in Europe that had a referendum. They wanted or at least thought we would vote yes if they made it more confusing, as a way sure **** it we will vote yeah cus its to much hassel. Logic and common sense would tell me, the way to get someone to understand a concept on paper is to make it readable and understandable. In this case it's so ****ing inane. I read it, to me it's contradictory. logic here applies that it was a dilerabarate attempt to make it confusing.

And now after the EU making this country financially successful (excluding the past few months lol), we throw it back in their face and expect to still be seen as a respected member

We didn't throw anything back in there face. Many people applauded our voice. France a very european country was delighted. Ask the people.
We said we love Europe but we don't agree with this. We don't agree with a super Europe with a super army run like shepard marching the sheep I'm afraid. People who can see far, no exactly what I'm talking about.

But I won't go there.

WooPeeA

mysterious wrote: »

I did read it.

Probably backward.

You vote yes.

You get another treaty.

you vote yes again.

You get another treaty.

Until you have so many laws signed, you will have as much rights as sheep.
If the Sheep votes no. The elite just just rolls it out again, So they ask you vote yes again. But sheep will always be sheep. Oh well, i must be wrong.

Then what happens?? see what's happening to the constitution in America stripping away bit by bit. This is what the bigger picture is. This is what's going to happen here. Don't believe me, I'm just stating reality. To be honest I couldn't care less. I like to be aware. I just like to open my eyes and see the wood for the trees.

How can you know what anyone will do in the future? Fortune teller or what..

It's only up to us. EU is democratic institution within everyone can participate and change it. Your vote is your power.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Why?
It pissed me off, The elite didnt hear our voice, (we voted for these people to represent us and our voice) Almost half the no voters knew why they voted NO, the other half voted no cus the lisbon treaty is fishy to be quite blunt. IMO it's designed that way. It's contradictory. So bloody confusing. Why should people vote yes to something they are not familar with. It's deceptive. Thats the bottom line.

I tell you what pissed me right off.
Your leader (not mine btw) Brian cowen was in a conference prior to the election and was asked did you read the treaty, and he said no. But he stil sad vote yes............. Your leader, and the government at the time, didn't bother to rally the yes vote. What should that tell you. Yet they say oh well vote for "Europe cus its sweet". If Europe is so sweet, why didnt they listen to our concerns. Like be civilized and ask us why we voted no. Instead they bullied us. Oh yeah you keep your head in the sand. This is me saying it pro European. Still doesn't defer the fact I'm not at all sitting well with the direction of Europe at the minute. They are supposed to be adults running the continent not bullies. Did you ever hear of compromise. You have how many elites, 14 of them couldn't come to any compromise or conclusion to this treaty with our needs and requirements of this treaty. But another revote? This is supposed to be a democratic society. Seriously do you any of you realise how delusional this is.

It's appalling. I'm well aware of the behaviour and attitude going on with our leaders and the leaders of Europe. It's downright disgusting.




Alot of people did understand, some didnt however and the ignorannce and misunderstanding with the treaty led to the latter result of NO. This makes logic sense.

That applies to every nation. That is why it was designed that way to make it complicated. Do you honestly believe that the Elites didnt know this? or that it would be impossible to disect. Ireland was the only country in Europe that had a referendum. They wanted or at least thought we would vote yes if they made it more confusing, as a way sure **** it we will vote yeah cus its to much hassel. Logic and common sense would tell me, the way to get someone to understand a concept on paper is to make it readable and understandable. In this case it's so ****ing inane. I read it, to me it's contradictory. logic here applies that it was a dilerabarate attempt to make it confusing.


We didn't throw anything back in there face. Many people applauded our voice. France a very european country was delighted. Ask the people.
We said we love Europe but we don't agree with this. We don't agree with a super Europe with a super army run like shepard marching the sheep I'm afraid. People who can see far, no exactly what I'm talking about.

But I won't go there.

This has been all covered before.

PS. No leader reads every single line of EU Treaties. The man, though I'm no fan, was too honest.

Check out Management by Exception.

mysterious

WooPeeA wrote: »

Probably backward.

How can you know what anyone will do in the future? Fortune teller or what..

It's only up to us. EU is democratic institution within everyone can participate and change it. Your vote is your power.

Well who would think that Europe would reject our voice, and asks us to vote again??? Which leads to intellegent people asking. I.E questioning what will they do in the future.

I do look around. Power is about control. Do you see it, or is that backwards for you.

If we vote no again. Should we vote again. Is our vote power? Funny you must be reading backwards. Cus I like to read reality.

K-9

mysterious wrote: »

Well who would think that Europe would reject our voice, and asks us to vote again??? Which leads to intellegent people asking. I.E questioning what will they do in the future.

I do look around. Power is about control. Do you see it, or is that backwards for you.

If we vote no again. Should we vote again. Is our vote power? Funny you must be reading backwards. Cus I like to read reality.

Hiya Declan!

BlitzKrieg

Well who would think that Europe would reject our voice, and asks us to vote again??? Which leads to intellegent people asking. I.E questioning what will they do in the future.

*wah wah wah* I ignored european politics all the time until the government asks me for my approval of something and then I get into a big hissy fit because they are actually doing things.

Intelligent people participate in European politics, which includes considering european politics at general irish elections and at european parliment elections. They are the two aspects that give us direct control over 2/3rds of the political power in the EU. Didnt think EU was an issue then, well then tough sh*tty cakes that the EU assumed that what Fianna Fail said at the council of ministers represented the will of the Irish.

We had our general election just under a year before the referendum, yet I did not see it as an issue at the election. If you really really really think the people's will is no more treaties then at the next general election (which god knows, some people think could be really soon) canvas for a party thats willing to put its foot down (example: Sinn Fein).

The turnout for Parliment elections are pathetic, resulting in ministers being elected with rarely any agenda from the people.


The referendums are a horrible but necessary aspect of the EU system one which brings out the best and the worst of the system. The best being its an oppurtunity to show the progress the EU is striding for, the worse of course is that its assumed to be the only democratic aspect of the EU and people tend to assume its the only time they get to sing their woes about their own government or about the EU as a whole. But its not!

If we vote no again. Should we vote again. Is our vote power? Funny you must be reading backwards. Cus I like to read reality.

If we vote no again, then the problem is not at EU level but irish politics level, it means there's a problem with fianna fail (one thats very obvious looking at the threads on boards.) and this problem will persist if we continue to ignore EU politics outside of these carnival shows known as referendums.

mysterious

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

*wah wah wah* I ignored european politics all the time until the government asks me for my approval of something and then I get into a big hissy fit because they are actually doing things.

Intelligent people participate in European politics, which includes considering european politics at general irish elections and at european parliment elections.

So if we live in a democratic society. Which we don't now as we have learned in the recent lisbon treaty. Does this tell you that the European actually know what the meaning democracy mean??? Do you think it would of being f**** sensible and quite smart to have made black and white print easier to read and understand even. It's not rocket science since you insist that these disrespectful yobs are so intellegent. They can't even come straight on this. (I know the reason why it was printed and created this way, you won't know tho )

Do you not think, that after a vote NO. That it means you respect the decision of the majority. Disrespect is not intellegence. I can't stand this bull****.

If they don't like our reason, on our vote NO.
They don't have the reasons, to suggest why
They as politicians don't even know the word compromise. It's called diplomacy and coming to a middle ground on this matter. This is what Europe used to be about. FACT is of today right now Europe has changed this view. Unable to strive for balance or democrazy. Something is very wrong here and people who can't break down what reality is, take time out and wake up.

We had our general election just under a year before the referendum, yet I did not see it as an issue at the election. If you really really really think the people's will is no more treaties then at the next general election (which god knows, some people think could be really soon) canvas for a party thats willing to put its foot down (example: Sinn Fein).

couldn't give a toss.

If we vote no again, then the problem is not at EU level but irish politics level, it means there's a problem with fianna fail (one thats very obvious looking at the threads on boards.) and this problem will persist if we continue to ignore EU politics outside of these carnival shows known as referendums.

Now that was the sillyest post I've ever read on boards. Literally. plain shocking.

Do you not get that 2+4 is not 45. Keep telling yourself it is. It's not. in other words NO means NO.
The reason why your post is so silly. Is that, we are not lapdogs. WE DON'T NEED fianna fail or ANY government to help us decide OUR decision, our rally our decision for christ sake. They are their to REPRESENT our DECISION. They don't decide for us, as we voted them to speak for our country, we the people decide for us, the politicans are there to make us heard not ****ing sarcosy.. God that was just disturbing and quite frank rather insulting to people who use their own brain and make their own decison's.

Please DON'T ever say we are the problem or the government is the problem. It's this disrespect to the peoples decision is the problem. Your problem is now not seeing simple maths.

mysterious

Seanies32 wrote: »

Hiya Declan!

I'm not declan.

View

mysterious wrote: »

I did read it.

---

You vote yes.

You get another treaty.

you vote yes again.

You get another treaty.

You might want to do a bit of re-reading of the Treaties (the post-Nice ones that is). The Treaties explicitly state the objectives of the EU - one of which includes building on the existing treaties, hence the reason why you get "another treaty" and then "another treaty".

Now fair enough, you don't like that but an overwhelming majority of the electorate authorised Ireland's membership of the EU (with all of its objectives). The real problem here is there is no chance of a political party who shares your views in forming a Government who could then vote us out of the EU (or attempt to persuade the other member states of the EU to change its objectives).

The irony in your posts is that you genuinely seem to believe that even though you aren't willing to accept either the original decision of the majority of the electorate in favour of membership of the EU or any of the subsequent decisions which support the EU's objectives that you have some sort of better understanding of what democracy is than the rest of us.

humanji

Mysterious, you pointed out in one of your posts something which you feel happy to completely overlook. A huge amount of people didn't vote and of those who did, a huge amount admitted to not knowing what the treaty was about, (despite it being their constitutional duty to find out).

Is it not simply better to have a second vote, where EVERYONE is informed on the true contents of the treaty can make up their own minds? That way we can truly find out what the Irish people want, instead of what a tiny minority want. Or do you think that you should speak for the Irish people, suspend their democratic right to vote and force your opinions on them?

jim o doom

Main reason I voted no & will vote the same again;

The earlier treaties were about fiscal/monetary community & there was treaties for the free movement of goods, trade & people. I am totally down with those treaties & wouldn't care if they were to encompass countries far outside the EU.

With the current treaty its all about "power sharing". I'm not nor have ever been worried about the flags thrown up by the ganley morons, the abortion possibilities or any of that foolishness. I just don't want our country to be part of some vast powerful entitity with the ability to make decisions for it's member countries without those countries being able to say "no" in any instance they feel the need to.

Also, the fact that there's a big recession going on, doesn't mean we should be so afraid of it that we be forced into voting for something we don't want. If we don't have our principals we don't have anything at all.

lurrrvs2sp00ge

If we votes yes and become part of this "Great powerfull entity" that doesn't mean they can tell us what to do. We will always have our own voice. How are they going to make us do what they want, invade a neutral country, bomb us till we surrender our rites, i dont think so

WooPeeA

mysterious wrote: »

Well who would think that Europe would reject our voice, and asks us to vote again??? Which leads to intellegent people asking. I.E questioning what will they do in the future.

It's not Europe but Irish government. Europe asked Cowen to find some solution, and he has chosen another referendum. He could choose any other option.

If we vote no again. Should we vote again. Is our vote power? Funny you must be reading backwards. Cus I like to read reality.

Another referendum? I don't think so. Europe will rather calculate all costs and benefits of Irish membership in EU structures once again.

BlitzKrieg

mysterious wrote: »

Do you think it would of being f**** sensible and quite smart to have made black and white print easier to read and understand even. It's not rocket science since you insist that these disrespectful yobs are so intellegent.

Lesson 2: The EU is an international organisation. every treaty goes through a minefield of laws across 27 states with surprisingly different politic systems.

As the treaties grew so did their complexity as they touch on numerous aspects of each states political sphere.

Now there was a point where even the EU said if this keeps up its going to get impossible to read in black and white, hence the EU constitution was born which was intended to work as a base that allowed political development in the EU to not require a complex system of nods and ticks to every states individual laws.

That got sunk

So the EU to apply a new treaty without the constitution required them to do all those nods and those ticks and nudges which has resulted in yes a very difficult treaty to read.


The easiest way to understand it is:

Constitution, a contract between the people and the state. It defines the relationshps, before it there is essentially nothing.

EU treaty a contract between 27 states (already with the above constitutions) + numerous independent bodies and the people.

Considering the vast amount legal hoopla that has to go through for that then its understandable of the end result.

Do you not think, that after a vote NO. That it means you respect the decision of the majority. Disrespect is not intellegence. I can't stand this bull****.

What is no? What is a referendum? These are important questions. More so the second one, a referendum is essentially a confirmation, *do you approve of this?* essentially is the question to the people. The answer No says we dont approve. It doesnt say anything more.


Which leads to the next step...Why? Which did happen and the end result was a series of reasons including abortion, lack of information, neutrality etc were the most prominant. No physical changes were made to the treaty because those issues were not affected by the treaty instead we are given the only thing really that can be given, reassurances. yes they are almost worthless, but politically there is not else can be done, you cant rewrite the treaty cause there is nothing to change, you could hold off on the treaty, but there are political structures in the EU that are in serious trouble because of elements of the nice treaty that will be applied this year, also there are countries who in their own self interest feel they really need certain elements through as soon as possible (such as Poland who with their emerging economy have specific benefits in the Lisbon treaty)




FACT is of today right now Europe has changed this view. Unable to strive for balance or democrazy. Something is very wrong here and people who can't break down what reality is, take time out and wake up.

couldn't give a toss.

weren't you a second ago going on about compromise? Why is it so much to ask that you participate in EU politics outside of these referendums?

NO means NO.

No simply doesnt work in politics.

They are their to REPRESENT our DECISION. They don't decide for us, as we voted them to speak for our country, we the people decide for us, the politicans are there to make us heard not ****ing sarcosy.

o...k So let me see if I have this right. Fianna Fail represent our decision correct?

So we elect them and in the election the issue of the EU is not brought up or if it was brought up the response for the majority was *we love the EU keep working with them* so Fianna Fail assumed that the people had no immediate issue with the current EU climate, maybe it was a wrong assumption but there was nothing to tell them otherwise, polls, election results, rallys etc none of it showed any immediate concern by the irish majority over the EU, with Lisbon being so close at the time, you would assume some effort would have been made.

Lisbon treaty comes, Fianna Fail (wrongly I guess) take a rather simple approach. Then rather suddenly there is a large amount of concern over the treaty and the major parties are failing to explain it, and the referendum results is a No.

What next? Polls etc line out a number of major issues and Fianna Fail, go and see how they find solutions to these issues. And we are back to the above, to solve those issues no change is required of the treaty, reassurances and more information. Why not run a 2nd referendum? No cannot be No and nothing more, its No and the following issues need to be resolved. If there was a reason that required a change to the treaty and no other solution, I assume there would have been a very different scenario (an amendment that would have to be passed through every state again, which yes would have make this a much more difficult scenario).


And lets say there is a 2nd referendum and again its a no, the same process again, why? is it possible to fix etc? Whatever the result a treaty of some manner (maybe a completely different one) will be still in our future. How that treaty is formed has nothing to do with the referendum but with the people we elect in our government and into the EU parliment (again thats 2/3rds of the EU power that we directly elect). This is the main issue I am stressing, the referendum is not the central democratic tool for forming EU law.

mysterious

lurrrvs2sp00ge wrote: »

If we votes yes and become part of this "Great powerfull entity" that doesn't mean they can tell us what to do. We will always have our own voice. How are they going to make us do what they want, invade a neutral country, bomb us till we surrender our rites, i dont think so

Great power entity. Give me a break.

Hadn't laughed all day till I seen that. Europe is a continent. It's not star wars. The fact is they are telling you what to do. They are telling you to vote yes. And nothing else.

If you vote no again. What nerve will they push then.

LFMAO. at the power entity. I really wonder how some people percieve the world we live in right now. It's not all hunky dory. Absolute power corrupts all. That is what the problem is with Europe. The elite want more control over the continent. Once this lisbon is passed, by the sheeple. The next one will come out, with more bull****.

Hitman Actual

jim o doom wrote: »

Main reason I voted no & will vote the same again;

The earlier treaties were about fiscal/monetary community & there was treaties for the free movement of goods, trade & people. I am totally down with those treaties & wouldn't care if they were to encompass countries far outside the EU.

If that's the case, your support of the EU/EC stopped after the SEA came into existence in 1988.

humanji

mysterious wrote: »

Great power entity. Give me a break.

Hadn't laughed all day till I seen that. Europe is a continent. It's not star wars. The fact is they are telling you what to do. They are telling you to vote yes. And nothing else.

If you vote no again. What nerve will they push then.

LFMAO. at the power entity. I really wonder how some people percieve the world we live in right now. It's not all hunky dory. Absolute power corrupts all. That is what the problem is with Europe. The elite want more control over the continent.

But you just said it's not powerful and laughed at the notion. So why are you talking about absolute power?

mysterious wrote: »

Once this lisbon is passed, by the sheeple.

*sigh* would it be a stretch to assume that by using that term I can safely deduce you believe Europe to be controlled by the NWO? Please tell me I'm wrong.

sink

mysterious wrote: »

Great power entity. Give me a break.

Hadn't laughed all day till I seen that. Europe is a continent. It's not star wars. The fact is they are telling you what to do. They are telling you to vote yes. And nothing else.

If you vote no again. What nerve will they push then.

LFMAO. at the power entity. I really wonder how some people percieve the world we live in right now. It's not all hunky dory. Absolute power corrupts all. That is what the problem is with Europe. The elite want more control over the continent. Once this lisbon is passed, by the sheeple. The next one will come out, with more bull****.

The EU is big, very big with a population of 500,000,000. In comparison to the closest alternate type of geo-political entity the 'nation state', by population only two are bigger than it, China and India, by economic output it is the largest in the world.

Yet the trans-national intergovernmental nature of the EU also makes in necessarily complex, much more complex than the comparatively simple nation state.

It is also very, very diverse with 27 separate member states, which in turn can be divided into diverse regions with individual histories and cultures. All in all the EU has 23 official languages and 70+ regional languages and countless distinct regional cultures.

So in the EU we have a very big, very complex and very diverse entity. That makes it very difficult to grasp resulting in a lack of knowledge and understanding. For this reason, to the general population the EU appears mysterious and distant. Unfortunately big, complex, diverse, mysterious and distant translates very easily in the minds of many into overpowering, dark and sinister with little justification.

What these people fail to grasp is the the EU is simply a tool. It is a societal structure built to accommodate the needs of it's population. It organises the economic, political and social dimensions of a large diverse region to facilitate co-operation for mutual benefit. It is essentially like any other social structure (e.g. credit unions, sports clubs, trade unions), it is built on social contracts between it's members, the only difference is it's scope and scale.

lurrrvs2sp00ge

mysterious wrote: »

Great power entity. Give me a break.

Hadn't laughed all day till I seen that. Europe is a continent. It's not star wars. The fact is they are telling you what to do. They are telling you to vote yes. And nothing else.

If you vote no again. What nerve will they push then.

LFMAO. at the power entity. I really wonder how some people percieve the world we live in right now. It's not all hunky dory. Absolute power corrupts all. That is what the problem is with Europe. The elite want more control over the continent. Once this lisbon is passed, by the sheeple. The next one will come out, with more bull****.

Maybe if you looked at te comment above mine you would know i was just quoting that comment about the powerful entity and stating hoe ridiculious it was to say.

limklad

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

So we elect them and in the election the issue of the EU is not brought up or if it was brought up the response for the majority was *we love the EU keep working with them* so Fianna Fail assumed that the people had no immediate issue with the current EU climate, maybe it was a wrong assumption but there was nothing to tell them otherwise, polls, election results, rallys etc none of it showed any immediate concern by the irish majority over the EU, with Lisbon being so close at the time, you would assume some effort would have been made.

There was an area of concern before the Lisbon Treaty. There was several polls that does show there were more Yes than No before the Referendum but none higher than 45% and there was a large (up to ~20%) undecided electorate a week before the referendum.

You are quick to forget not long ago in recent years (within this decade) that they (the Politicians) will always find another method in getting what they want. The Lisbon Treaty was "Plan B" in the Reform of the EU after the Failed Referendums in Holland and France on the "Plan A" , The "EU Constitution". So The Lisbon Treaty was created to bypass the people again by using the Treaty method. So your right "No does not mean No to the Politicians".

lurrrvs2sp00ge

And its a good thing to because look what happens when we leave it to the public to decide. We have to face it that the majority of the public dont realy know what it is. They here these made up things like we will be forced to fight for a european army and say no. Plus if you dont understand something new, the natural responce is to say no to it. It was easy for us to say no when our economy was booming but know we need Europe again so we'll see what happens

raindog.promo

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,607893,00.html

Germany not too keen on Lisbon now, it would seem, I'm still digesting it.