Dell and Gov response

The Mighty Ken

ROC1977 wrote: »

Some one like me who's there 12 years thats a kick in the stones. 12 months pay with out shift allowance is ****. I knew that tight **** would screw us.

Eh, hang on a second. Are you saying that you allowed yourself to become completely institutionalised in a multinational company for the last 12 years under the pretence that you'd secured 'a job for life' or something? I don't really see how that's Dell's fault. They're moving to a cheaper country to lower the cost of business. That's how the world works. That's how companies work. Dell don't owe anyone anything.

What have you done to protect yourself in the event of this (the inevitable IMO) happening? Have you learnt any industry-level skills that you can take with you, whether it be to another company or another country? If not, that was very short-sighted.

I am completely sympathetic to anyone who loses their job. I know how it feels from personal experience. Especially if you have a family to provide for, a mortgage to pay, etc. However I just can't understand how people who were working in Dell for the last 12 years or so weren't prepared for this eventuality. Is the 'job for life' mentality still that strong in Ireland? Time to move into the 21st century people.

ROC1977 wrote: »

On a plus note... all the people who do nothing already will keep their jobs. IT, logistics, supply chain. Management have yet again set up all their buddys with new job without posting them on any jobs notice boards.

You're hardly going to garner any sympathy by slating your colleagues just because they've kept their jobs (for now) and you haven't.

lostexpectation

tainaiste speaks: disappointed
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Tanaiste-deeply-disappointed-at-Dells.4855995.jp

Mr. Incognito

Originally Posted by ROC1977
Some one like me who's there 12 years thats a kick in the stones. 12 months pay with out shift allowance is ****. I knew that tight **** would screw us.

Eh, hang on a second. Are you saying that you allowed yourself to become completely institutionalised in a multinational company for the last 12 years under the pretence that you'd secured 'a job for life' or something? I don't really see how that's Dell's fault. They're moving to a cheaper country to lower the cost of business. That's how the world works. That's how companies work. Dell don't owe anyone anything.

What have you done to protect yourself in the event of this (the inevitable IMO) happening? Have you learnt any industry-level skills that you can take with you, whether it be to another company or another country? If not, that was very short-sighted.

I am completely sympathetic to anyone who loses their job. I know how it feels from personal experience. Especially if you have a family to provide for, a mortgage to pay, etc. However I just can't understand how people who were working in Dell for the last 12 years or so weren't prepared for this eventuality. Is the 'job for life' mentality still that strong in Ireland? Time to move into the 21st century people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ROC1977
On a plus note... all the people who do nothing already will keep their jobs. IT, logistics, supply chain. Management have yet again set up all their buddys with new job without posting them on any jobs notice boards.

You're hardly going to garner any sympathy by slating your colleagues just because they've kept their jobs (for now) and you haven't.

That's bang out of order. If I'd just lost my job of 12 years I think i'd be entitled to a moan. Grow up ffs.

old boy

this has been on the cards since the factory in poland was built, managers and trainers were sent over there to train people, polish people were handpicked to go home by dell.
the ida gov etc had their heads in the sand, the usual it will be all right mabey something will happen,.
people who were unprepared espically theose in the gov and ida should be fired with the same redundancy packages as dell employees.

The Mighty Ken

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

That's bang out of order. If I'd just lost my job of 12 years I think i'd be entitled to a moan. Grow up ffs.

Calling the company 'tight ****s' and blaming colleagues fortunate enough to have kept their jobs isn't really that constructive. At the end of the day, it's really down to what the poster can do for himself/herself now. I'd that have thought by now that people would realise that in a capitalist society that becoming completely dependent on a multinational was a bad idea is all.

As I said, I do sympathise with anyone who loses their job and, indeed, I know exactly how it feels. My main point is that depending on 'a job for life' in this day and age can be dangerous if you don't have any kind of contingency.

I wouldn't blame anyone for having a moan either. It's only natural. But it might be an idea of get a sense of perspective, reality and to be more stoic and resourceful in light of bad times. I would find it particularly worrying if all 1,900 people let go from Dell were completely institutionalised and unqualified to work elsewhere.

Mr. Incognito

I wouldn't blame anyone for having a moan either

Really? your posts beg to differ.

But it might be an idea of get a sense of perspective, reality and to be more stoic and resourceful in light of bad times. I would find it particularly worrying if all 1,900 people let go from Dell were completely institutionalised and unqualified to work elsewhere.

Are you having a laugh. It doesn't matter how trained and skilled the guy is. The jobs are flying out the door of this country mate, and you'd better wake the fcuk up because that could be any of us in the dole next week bo matter how highly qualified. I've solicitor mates pumping gas. Are you going to blame them for not insulating themselves from the downturn too?

People become dependent on jobs because they have to. ALL jobs. There are shops dependent on Dell becasue they sell sandwiches and coffee to their employees. Is that there fault. An economic opportunity exists and people exploit it. That's Capitalism as you've just quoted. Now that opportunity no longer exists and instead of sitting in you ivory tower with your head up your arse you should grow up.

The Mighty Ken

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Really? your posts beg to differ.

Moan where it's justified.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

you'd better wake the fcuk up

To what exactly? Aren't we all in the same boat? I'm well aware of what's going on to be honest and it will more than likely effect me as much as anyone else. I just didn't sit around pissing and moaning about it as I have to make the best of a bad situation.

mike dee

Ok before I start sorry to all those in Limerick who have lost your jobs. I have experienced this 2x in my life and I am in my late twenties and Uni-educated so I understand.

Now- Hopefully many of these people can use their experience and go and be involved in building proper computers, not the bundle of sh** that dell stuffs into boxes and attaches power cables to. If anyone of these people are interested I know computer repair business is boooooming, so maybe few will find jobs there.

Money (and lots of it, at least 100 Million) needs to be found for deployment in creating IRISH companies that MAKE something, not useless financial services companies, or multinationals that extol their gra for Ireland, and then pull out when tax breaks are over. We need to develop intrinsic value, that is not the property/construction sector.
Additionally serious efforts need to be made to upskill a lot of people and also to only attract high quality investment.

I can attest to the fact, that despite what anyone tells you R and D in Ireland is a joke. We have no serious science, the majority of our scientists are far from world class, and any attempt to say is a PR exercise. To start up a Science/high tech company millions are required, which is not a valuable in Ireland. Anyone with serious idea has to get funding abroad, and this applied not just now but also during the height of the Celtic tiger.

The people of Limerick, and Ireland better remember who presided over this mess when the next elections come about and suitably vote out their FF and Green TDs. They have allowed this situation to escalate with no leadership.

ROC1977

your missing my point Mighty Ken. I'm not complaining that work mates kept jobs. I'm not happy that lots of jobs internally in Dell were being created and given to a number of people without being advertised internally against company policy. It goes on in there all the time.
Plus the package being given is 6 weeks (including government) without 20% shift allowance and over time. And then capped at 52 weeks pay. My point is that its barely 2/3rds of a years wages for everyone in there.
Never thought Dell would be a job for life, nor am I stupid. I just find the timing for me personally is bad. And the bull sh1t and lies we had to listen to over the past few years.
Even awhile ago Willie Odea was on the news saying that the employees are getting a very good servance package?!? WTF?

The average wage is 10 to 14 euros an hour. The average payout for someone working there about 10 years will be roughly 20,000 euros.

patnor1011

Dont you folks think that something has to be done? Dell enjoyed years of tax breaks, cheap labor and now when its time to hold on they are suddenly moving elsewhere. Yeah its economic crisis and tough times but they cant just leave and say thanks for everything and sorry we have to go... Then we shall say thanks for everything we enjoy work for dell but we have to go too and move from dell computers /which by the way are not the best in world/ and start something like boycott dell products and let them know that they have to pay too. This is one of the best moves used to push or used to achieve something...
Just my 2 cents...

bnt

old boy wrote: »

this has been on the cards since the factory in poland was built, managers and trainers were sent over there to train people, polish people were handpicked to go home by dell.

It's been on the cards for a lot longer than that, if you expand your view to other countries and companies. HP sold off the Compaq factories in Scotland (Erskine) to Foxconn around 2003, moved PC manufacturing to Poland and the Czech Republic, and most of their support to Bangalore by 2006. Ironically: by slimming down years ahead of Dell, they seem better-placed to deal with the current downturn - but that doesn't do much good in Ireland, does it?

AlekSmart

MikeDee said...

Money (and lots of it, at least 100 Million) needs to be found for deployment in creating IRISH companies that MAKE something, not useless financial services companies, or multinationals that extol their gra for Ireland, and then pull out when tax breaks are over. We need to develop intrinsic value, that is not the property/construction sector.

A very strong and accurate point which begs the question as to whether the IDA/FaS and every other Government sponsored "Job Creation" agency were misguided in their approach.

The reality of the Irish Jobs miracle of the 90`s and early 2000`s was one of very poor levels of support to native Irish entrepreneurs in any area other than hi-tech consumables.

I know of several friends who when seeking financial support to improve or expand their basic engineering businesses were given the run around by both the Banking sector and the much vaunted State support agancies.

Worse still,the amounts of assistance they were seeking were tiny in comparision to the DEll`s of the world.

So...we are left with a country where a plumber,electrician or mechanic is still left to go it alone in their world ??

Liam Byrne

I seem to remember Willie & Co trotting out the line that if we didn't support the U.S. invasion of Iraq that companies like Dell might pull out.

Laughable, really, if it weren't so serious for those who are now without jobs.

It's almost inevitable, though; with the cost of living in this country gone through the roof, and the wage requirements likewise, any company looking to have reasonable costs is likely to move if it can.

jmayo

patnor1011 wrote: »

Dont you folks think that something has to be done? Dell enjoyed years of tax breaks, cheap labor and now when its time to hold on they are suddenly moving elsewhere. Yeah its economic crisis and tough times but they cant just leave and say thanks for everything and sorry we have to go... Then we shall say thanks for everything we enjoy work for dell but we have to go too and move from dell computers /which by the way are not the best in world/ and start something like boycott dell products and let them know that they have to pay too. This is one of the best moves used to push or used to achieve something...
Just my 2 cents...

Cheap labour ?
They are actually off to find some, becuase it hasn't really been cheap in Ireland for quiet a while.
Dell like lots of multinationals are enticed to setup here through grants and our cheap corporation tax.
But in return they create jobs, they employ people, they allow local companies find markets for their services and they result in more employment in local environment.
How many companies were spawned to meet the requirements of Dell and their like ?
Sorry to be harsh but Dell are not a charity and they are in business to make money for their owners, not keep anybody in a job.
Let me ask you this, If your pension plan had shares in Dell would you want to see them continue making lower returns ?

Saying that we should boycott their products is like the governmnet asking us to be patriotic and not shop in NI, it is childish and clutching at straws.
I will continue to buy Dell and recommend Dell if they offer the products I need and the value for money that I need to achieve.
If they don't then I will buy elsewhere.
As our political elite has shown us quiet often enough and quiet recently, it is look after yourself time.
PS theIrish market would be only tiny proportion and not very noticable.

bnt wrote: »

It's been on the cards for a lot longer than that, if you expand your view to other countries and companies. HP sold off the Compaq factories in Scotland (Erskine) to Foxconn around 2003, moved PC manufacturing to Poland and the Czech Republic, and most of their support to Bangalore by 2006. Ironically: by slimming down years ahead of Dell, they seem better-placed to deal with the current downturn - but that doesn't do much good in Ireland, does it?

Anyone that thinks this is some surprise or is only on the cards over last couple of years has been living in dream land.
This was on the cards from the day they set up in Limerick, it has always been Dell's ethos to provide products at as cheap a price as they can so that they can compete in the market.

BTW from what I can recall, anyone that did mention any of the stark realalities about the future of the Irish economy, were told not so long ago to bog off as they were a bunch of whingers and begrudgers :rolleyes:
Of course the "fundamentals", the revenue returns and job figures (mostly retail and construction related gains) were fired in the realists' faces to shut them up.

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

....anyone that did mention any of the stark realalities about the future of the Irish economy, were told not so long ago to bog off.

Acutally I think they were told to commit suicide by Bertie ?

luckat

The American multinationals in Ireland are (almost all) typical of the late-20th-century model of capitalism, which is utterly profit-centred, rather than the 'Protestant Ethic' model, which was to build a company that worked well for all involved: customers, workers and shareholders.

This is a model that's shaking itself to bits at the moment; maybe we'd be better to go back to the older model founded by the Puritans?

genericgoon

AlekSmart wrote: »

MikeDee said...

A very strong and accurate point which begs the question as to whether the IDA/FaS and every other Government sponsored "Job Creation" agency were misguided in their approach.

The reality of the Irish Jobs miracle of the 90`s and early 2000`s was one of very poor levels of support to native Irish entrepreneurs in any area other than hi-tech consumables.

I know of several friends who when seeking financial support to improve or expand their basic engineering businesses were given the run around by both the Banking sector and the much vaunted State support agancies.

Worse still,the amounts of assistance they were seeking were tiny in comparision to the DEll`s of the world.

So...we are left with a country where a plumber,electrician or mechanic is still left to go it alone in their world ??

The reason is simple. Investments were made to yield short term,incredibly high profits which is basically what executives chased as this is what would have given the best return to stockholders. Its what these CEOs were getting their nice bonus cheques for. Solid yield (still risky but more of a known quantity) companies didn't stand a chance in such an environment. The fact investing in 'high tech,cutting edge' industry would seem more impressive PR-wise may have also been a contributing factor.

ROC1977

luckat wrote: »

The American multinationals in Ireland are (almost all) typical of the late-20th-century model of capitalism, which is utterly profit-centred, rather than the 'Protestant Ethic' model, which was to build a company that worked well for all involved: customers, workers and shareholders.

This is a model that's shaking itself to bits at the moment; maybe we'd be better to go back to the older model founded by the Puritans?

Capitalism doesn't work and never did. The greedy rich want to get richer and have no ethics. And basically Fcuk the working class. Goes for multinationals and governments.
Time for Revolution!!!!! lol

luckat

ROC1977 wrote: »

Capitalism doesn't work and never did. The greedy rich want to get richer and have no ethics. And basically Fcuk the working class. Goes for multinationals and governments.
Time for Revolution!!!!! lol

Answering a jokey point seriously, I actually think the business model can work pretty well, if it's done in an ungreedy way that aims to sell good goods for a fair price and pay fair wages.

jmayo

luckat wrote: »

The American multinationals in Ireland are (almost all) typical of the late-20th-century model of capitalism, which is utterly profit-centred, rather than the 'Protestant Ethic' model, which was to build a company that worked well for all involved: customers, workers and shareholders.

This is a model that's shaking itself to bits at the moment; maybe we'd be better to go back to the older model founded by the Puritans?

Are you talking about companies like Cadburys creating a model community around Bournville, Guinnesses in Dublin and maybe the likes of Toyota in Toyota city in Japan.

ROC1977 wrote: »

Capitalism doesn't work and never did. The greedy rich want to get richer and have no ethics. And basically Fcuk the working class. Goes for multinationals and governments.
Time for Revolution!!!!! lol

Yeah, but did you notice how a lot of the so called working classes e.g the plumbers, carpenters, builders were very quick to jump on the property band wagon and had no problem being very greedy and taking others for all that they could.
They weren't just screwing rich people, they were screwing their "own class" just as fast as eagerly.
The myth of the poor working classes being totally down trodden is just that a myth.
There are rich and very rich very well connected people in this world.
This is so evident in Ireland, as can be seen from the whole banking scandals.
Everyone is on everyone elses board and thus they can ensure a nice little cosy cartel.
Yes they are rich, they try and maintain it and get even richer, but you will find some of the very greedy rich were from the supposed more humble less greedy working classes that you are lauding so much.

Greed is a human condition and not just one solely the preserve of the already rich or the newly rich

gurramok

ROC1977 wrote: »

Plus the package being given is 6 weeks (including government) without 20% shift allowance and over time. And then capped at 52 weeks pay. My point is that its barely 2/3rds of a years wages for everyone in there.
Never thought Dell would be a job for life, nor am I stupid. I just find the timing for me personally is bad. And the bull sh1t and lies we had to listen to over the past few years.
Even awhile ago Willie Odea was on the news saying that the employees are getting a very good servance package?!? WTF?

The average wage is 10 to 14 euros an hour. The average payout for someone working there about 10 years will be roughly 20,000 euros.

On this point, i was offered redundancy twice in the last 4 years in a different MNC and the package was similar but without shift.

That said, capped at 52 weeks is mean.

This whole Dell thing is like the Valleys in Wales losing their coalmines, Detroit losing their car manufacturing in that a whole region depending on one type of industry for a livelihood is wrecked for a generation when that livelihood goes.
That buck stops at the door of the IDA, FF and Enterprise Ireland who don't give a crap about growing Irish industry players.

turgon

I heard on the after hours thread (yeah I know, even less reliable than wikipedia) that dell account for 5% of gdp, through subsidiaries etc etc.

If this is true, we are screwed.

This is the first time this recession downturn has struck me as potentially frightening.

How can the dell movement be soaked up??? Ireland has become far to an expensive place for companies to consider.

trentf

AlekSmart wrote: »

MikeDee said...

A very strong and accurate point which begs the question as to whether the IDA/FaS and every other Government sponsored "Job Creation" agency were misguided in their approach.

The reality of the Irish Jobs miracle of the 90`s and early 2000`s was one of very poor levels of support to native Irish entrepreneurs in any area other than hi-tech consumables.

I know of several friends who when seeking financial support to improve or expand their basic engineering businesses were given the run around by both the Banking sector and the much vaunted State support agancies.

Worse still,the amounts of assistance they were seeking were tiny in comparision to the DEll`s of the world.

So...we are left with a country where a plumber,electrician or mechanic is still left to go it alone in their world ??

Totally agree on this point our economy is a total sham and reliant on inward investment. Our politicians during the good times should have been investing in indegenious industries and letting us compete on a global level with multinationals. How many multinational companies do we own here in ireland? Very little. None come to mind at all in fact, like in sweden such as saab,IKEA,volvo. They even develop their own griffen jets and stealth submarines, military systems which they export to countries. They are lightyears ahead of us in thinking.

Now im not saying we go rambo but we need to change the way we do business and run our economy. As the poster said having a useless service sector built on services is like wating for a line of dominos to fall which is what happened with dell. I saw this coming years ago too many companies were relying on dell and when there should have been economic leadership to spot this and diversify business in the area where were they? off in florida getting expensive haircuts..thats where. Enjoying the good times instead of doing what they were elected and paid to do.


Sadly this could have been avoided but our leaders have not been planning. Did they expect us to believe that by putting on a suit and tie and flying out to texas to 'convince them limerick is a great place with lots to offer' would make up for years of neglect in this area in terms of planning and would convince the executives in dell to stay in ireland when they base their company around profit making? Judging by what i saw on the news they do. The same ole last minute p.r job to deflect angry workers blame off them ' hey look i made an effort' if you will.


We need to create our own indengenious industries, limit and seek diversification in the industries that do come in and stop having a core group of industries locating here i.e I.T, Finance,advertising, mobile based companies. It just encourages the reliance on big companies for other small companies and increases the chances of the domino effect of job losses. We have the brainpower and intelligence to do so without doubt but we keep electing the wrong people to lead us to this vision. In fact they don't even have a vision.

When we needed to focus our attention on research and development during the boom years and the government has failed us badly. What were they doing during this time? wasting money on usless tribunals and bickering like school children in the playground in the dail.


I saw the look on Willie O'Dea's face today, he had the look of 'we have no plan b just plan a'.

Looking at countries such as sweden, norway, denmark have a fair few multinational companies and focus their attention on developing their own industries and do not suffer the same fate as us. In fact the government is clueless and useless as was demonstrated by their response to today's news i.e. ' go out to the world and beg for replacement industries for the mid west' ..another receipe for another disaster in the neverending cycle which sees multinationals invest here and leave once they find a country with better tax incentives or cheaper labour leaving thousands here without jobs. Stopgap solutions for the economy don't work and that has been proven over time


I think we need a change in government first. Then we can focus on developing our industries to go on the global export market and be compeditive and thus create jobs and sustain them. Its such a shame we find ourselves in this position because i know there are so many intelligent people in this country who want to see these things happen but unfortunately we let a shower of eejits run it.

We need to take a long look at ourselves i think and who we elect. We deserve a better class of people running our country then this.

O'Morris

trentf wrote:

We have the brainpower and intelligence to do so without doubt

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Irish people have the second lowest average IQ in the EU (see here) and as economic success is strongly correlated with intelligence, I would be doubtful that we have what it takes to compete with other developed economies.

ejmaztec

O'Morris wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Irish people have the second lowest average IQ in the EU (see here) and as economic success is strongly correlated with intelligence, I would be doubtful that we have what it takes to compete with other developed economies.

I think that the survey must only relate to the government members of all the countries listed. It's unfortunate that intelligent people don't get involved in Irish politics.

oxygen_old

O'Morris wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Irish people have the second lowest average IQ in the EU (see here) and as economic success is strongly correlated with intelligence, I would be doubtful that we have what it takes to compete with other developed economies.

That book is border line fiction. It has been soo heavily criticized.

I do think that Ireland has a well educated working force, particularly in the IT sector. We do need to grow our own indigenous industries, most likely technology based since we seem to have an aptitude for it. The one way of not doing this however is to cut back in schools, and charge 3rd level fees. All the holabaloo about free medical cards being cut, the seriously detrimental cuts for our future were ignored.

Dob74

O'Morris wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Irish people have the second lowest average IQ in the EU (see here) and as economic success is strongly correlated with intelligence, I would be doubtful that we have what it takes to compete with other developed economies.

This book has been discredited and can not be taken seriously

O'Morris

oxygen wrote:

That book is border line fiction. It has been soo heavily criticized.

Dob74 wrote:

This book has been discredited and can not be taken seriously

They wrote a follow-up to that book in 2006 called IQ and Global Inequality. It replies to some of the criticism made of first book. Depressingly, Ireland's average IQ was found to be only 92.

I know it's painful but we just have to accept that we don't have the human resources in this country to compete economically with other developed countries. We tried that policy back before the 1960s and we failed miserably. We don't have what it takes to 'go it alone'. We'll just need to stick with our policy of trying to attract foreign investors from countries with more innovative, intelligent and industrious populations than our own.

oxygen_old

O'Morris wrote: »

They wrote a follow-up to that book in 2006 called IQ and Global Inequality. It replies to some of the criticism made of first book. Depressingly, Ireland's average IQ was found to be only 92.

I know it's painful but we just have to accept that we don't have the human resources in this country to compete economically with other developed countries. We tried that policy back before the 1960s and we failed miserably. We don't have what it takes to 'go it alone'. We'll just need to stick with our policy of trying to attract foreign investors from countries with more innovative, intelligent and industrious populations than our own.

That book is even less regarded than the first one. While the first one was published in an academic capacity, this one was published by a private publisher, for paper back sale.

Even if you did hold any credence to a non academic publication, Ireland is only 7 points below Great Brittan, 5 points below USA, and 14 points of the top of the table. We are in the 80 percentile band with a lot of other well developed countries. Note, nothing in here suggest Ireland cant gain economic independence.

(Note: Canada is in a lower band than the USA even considering they currently have one of the strongest healthiest economies in the world)

With a user name like O’ Morris, do you not feel a bit odd coming on to an Irish message board, and declaring the Irish have to low an IQ to gain some economic independence?

O'Morris

oxygen wrote:

That book is even less regarded than the first one. While the first one was published in an academic capacity, this one was published by a private publisher, for paper back sale.

Even if you did hold any credence to a non academic publication, Ireland is only 7 points below Great Brittan, 5 points below USA, and 14 points of the top of the table. We are in the 80 percentile band with a lot of other well developed countries. Note, nothing in here suggest Ireland cant gain economic independence.

(Note: Canada is in a lower band than the USA even considering they currently have one of the strongest healthiest economies in the world)

These are all very good points but it would be going off topic for me to address the specific criticism raised against the arguments put forward in those books. I only raised the point about our low level of intelligence in response to claims made on this thread that we should shift the focus of our economic policy from attracting foreign investment to developing indigenous industries. I'm just not convinced that we have either the natural or the human resources to survive without investment from more innovative economies.

oxygen wrote:

With a user name like O’ Morris, do you not feel a bit odd coming on to an Irish message board, and declaring the Irish have to low an IQ to gain some economic independence?

I'm an Irish man myself and I would love if we were a high-IQ and economically independent country.

jmayo

oxygen wrote: »

That book is even less regarded than the first one. While the first one was published in an academic capacity, this one was published by a private publisher, for paper back sale.

Even if you did hold any credence to a non academic publication, Ireland is only 7 points below Great Brittan, 5 points below USA, and 14 points of the top of the table. We are in the 80 percentile band with a lot of other well developed countries. Note, nothing in here suggest Ireland cant gain economic independence.

(Note: Canada is in a lower band than the USA even considering they currently have one of the strongest healthiest economies in the world)

With a user name like O’ Morris, do you not feel a bit odd coming on to an Irish message board, and declaring the Irish have to low an IQ to gain some economic independence?

Yes and as can be seen from another long running thread on here he argues that we should keep Ireland and Europe ethnically pure.
So I guess he is arguing we should remain think micks :rolleyes:

If you compare our industrial base with some other comparable countries population wise, we are very poor on indigensous companies.
Take out our agri sector and what have you got, oh yes a couple of construction related enties like CRH, the Quinn Group or Ryan Air in aviation.
The Celtic Tiger high flyers like Baltimore, Iona, Trintech have been decimated or taken over.
Compare us to Finland, Sweden or Norway and we have very few home grown companies that are competing on world markets.
Saying that there is a trend over last 20/30 years of industries being amalgamated into a few huge worldwide conglomerates and this has affected things like the motor and technology industries in the likes of Sweden and Finland.
But at least they had something to start with, unlike us and our resilience on imported jobs.

AlekSmart

I would ordinarily be sceptical of reports such as this one....

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Irish people have the second lowest average IQ in the EU (see here) and as economic success is strongly correlated with intelligence, I would be doubtful that we have what it takes to compete with other developed economies.

However......In my line of work I have come up against a constant and worsening trait of what I first took to be simple "acting the jinnet" but which sadly appears to be simple plain stupidity..doziness..lack of awareness...call it what you will.

My experiences relate to dealing with large numbers of 3rd Level students from a wide range of Educational Establishments across a broad spectrum of activities.ie: Both acedemic and recreational.

In my untrained and perhaps ignorant opinion,there has been a frightening decline in average basic "intelligence" (If that`s what it is) over the past 15 years,roughly equating to the "Celtic Tiger" years I suppose.

This may well be a contributory factor in the decision of Dell and it`s fellow travelling Multi-Nationals to seek it`s new talent further afield as the IDA/FÀS promised hordes of young talented adaptable English speaking graduates eager for challenge,simply has not materialized even after an expensive incubation period.

Instead I find myself increasingly surrounded by hordes of 20 somethings who simply want to Parrrrty and not alone that but want everybody else to suspend their own non-partying activities and facilitate theirs.

I suppose I should have been forewarned when witnessing the amount of Alcohol related "Stuff" being eagerly grasped by the new student influx at recent "Open Days" in the major colleges.

Nubile young babes dispensing free-samples of the latest hi octane hooch along with discount offers for City Centre "Student Centred" venues.

Drinks purveyors dispensing free-samples on the steps of DIT`s institutes and those same students supping cider with rosie as their prospective Lecturers attempted to instil in them a recognition that there is much hard acedemic work to be done....hic !!

All of this recreational facet is of itself pretty natural and it`s practiced world-wide,however what I feel made our version so spectacular was the fact that it rapidly became the norm...with the actual business of Study being set-aside as the revelling student body attempted to sober-up,come down or simply stay conscious long enough to do the math..

Good times cometh...and they endeth just as fast and the Flight of Dell can be seen as the beginning of a re-entrenchment which may yet see a Country having to reduce it`s expectations of what exactly it`s own people are capable of.

From the evidence now before us,it can be argued that the native Irish simply excelled at skullduggerous fiscal duplicity,refused flatly to heed sober well intentioned warnings of approaching trouble.

Even our elders and administrative "betters" having largely come through the educational system I`ve described turned out to be little more than "Parrrrty" people too and turned downright nasty with any Party Poopers that dared speak out ("Why don`t yiz go and commit suicide"....a somewhat dark-sided response which may yet turn out to be chillingly accurate)

Perhaps there is yet hope that Ireland plc can be saved by a White-Knight in the form of an intelligent,calm and considered leadership,but I cannot think of any on the immediate horizon.

In the interim it may take a few General Elections to rid our collective physche of the need to chair the likes of the Flynn`s around counting halls of the land after voting wholeheartedly for them and their brand of Political Leadership.

And before jmayo interjects...I FULLY accept that Mayo is a big County and has sufficient reserves of intelligence to survive the Flynnstone era !!

oxygen_old

These are all very good points but it would be going off topic for me to address the specific criticism raised against the arguments put forward in those books. I only raised the point about our low level of intelligence

If its off point, why bring it up in the first place, it was fairly off topic and unsubstantiated to begin with.

This thread is going off topic, apologies to anyone keeping up with Dell and Gov response, I just felt O'Morris' point needed to be corrected.

AlekSmart

Trentf wrote.

We need to create our own indengenious industries, limit and seek diversification in the industries that do come in and stop having a core group of industries locating here i.e I.T, Finance,advertising, mobile based companies. It just encourages the reliance on big companies for other small companies and increases the chances of the domino effect of job losses. We have the brainpower and intelligence to do so without doubt but we keep electing the wrong people to lead us to this vision. In fact they don't even have a vision.

When we needed to focus our attention on research and development during the boom years and the government has failed us badly. What were they doing during this time? wasting money on usless tribunals and bickering like school children in the playground in the dail.

A highly valid point IMO.
Nowhere was this lack of will to go forward more evident than in the case ofTimoney and Adtec,the Meath based company set-up by the Timoney Brothers.

This company was and remains at the forefront of Emergency and Military vehicle suspension technology.
It developed and produced suspension systems which have gone on to become industry standard in many areas.

As an ongoing part of the development process,Timoney diversified into Military vehicles in a big way,developing systems such as stabilised platforms,suspensions and ceramic based armour and engine components.

However I recall quite a furore when Timoney`s attempted to market such Militaryand Civil Order equipment on the broader stage.
It appears that developing and marketing this technology was incompatible with our much vaunted neutrality and as such could not be countenanced by our Government.

As a result Timoney`s were required to turn somersaults in an effort to be jesuitical,which saw the company entering into licencing arrangements with the likes of Belgian Fabrique National and other associated well known entities.

The Timoney operation is EXACTLY the type of indigenous company which would stand and hold it`s own in any world market.

Instead of supporting the Timoney`s of the land our supportive methods were totally directed at the Dell,s and Intel`s of the world,none of whose products of course find their way into any oppressive military equipment........

We need a TOTAL rethink of the countrys governing ethos and if looking a wee bit closer at the Hi-Taxation and self confident Nordic countries is what it takes then l;ets do it ???

O'Morris

oxygen wrote:

If its off point, why bring it up in the first place, it was fairly off topic and unsubstantiated to begin with.

The point about our low intelligence was not off topic because it related to the question of how we should respond to the loss of jobs in the multinational sector. Some people seemed to suggest that we should change the focus of our economic policy from attracting foreign investment to developing and encouraging native industry. I'm not sure if we are intelligent enough to create enough jobs to replace the multinational jobs and I don't think we can afford to take the risk to try to prove otherwise.

We'll just need to find some way to make ourselves more attractive to foreign investors. There are two things we'll have to do in the short-term, one is to lower our corporation tax rate and the other is to lower our minimum wage.

oxygen_old

O'Morris wrote: »

The point about our low intelligence was not off topic because it related to the question of how we should respond to the loss of jobs in the multinational sector. Some people seemed to suggest that we should change the focus of our economic policy from attracting foreign investment to developing and encouraging native industry. I'm not sure if we are intelligent enough to create enough jobs to replace the multinational jobs and I don't think we can afford to take the risk to try to prove otherwise.

We'll just need to find some way to make ourselves more attractive to foreign investors. There are two things we'll have to do in the short-term, one is to lower our corporation tax rate and the other is to lower our minimum wage.

Points I would agree with:

We need to reduce the national minimum wage, or if possibly, more the average 3rd level grad wage. Its currently €8.somthing here. In Poland its €3. It would be tough times for us, but worth it in the long run. The only problem is the like of myself (and plenty of Limerick people I'm sure), who are tied into 30 year mortgage payments.

I would say if we lower the Corp tax any more, the EU will come down pretty hard on us. It's fairly low as it is.

I think we need to support more homegrown business models. The last two companies I worked for were Irish companies, and the EI were more of a hindrance than a help, seriously.

And on your point on Irish not being intelligent enough to support Irish business is a non sensible point, you should stop making it.

trentf

O'Morris wrote: »

They wrote a follow-up to that book in 2006 called IQ and Global Inequality. It replies to some of the criticism made of first book. Depressingly, Ireland's average IQ was found to be only 92.

I know it's painful but we just have to accept that we don't have the human resources in this country to compete economically with other developed countries. We tried that policy back before the 1960s and we failed miserably. We don't have what it takes to 'go it alone'. We'll just need to stick with our policy of trying to attract foreign investors from countries with more innovative, intelligent and industrious populations than our own.

No we don't have to just accept that and accepting defeat before you try it is called an excercise in futility, which we, sadly, have become experts in through years of mismanagement. That was the 1960's and things were a lot different then. We didn't have the communications technology and methods, opportunities and tools we have today back then. Most of the world was still under colonial rule back then. We certainly did not encourage innovation at any level through our outdated education system.

Sorry but the multinational model we have used is the thing which has failed us badly. Nobody is talking about going it alone? Whats been asked for is that we ween our reliance off multinational companies which we currently are totally reliant on. If all the multinationals pulled out of Ireland in the morning then this country would turn into a third world country with everybody on social welfare.

We have relied on this system for too long and whilst it may have provided a false sense of security during the 90's when everybody was doing well it has proven during a global downturn to be our own worst enemy. We need put some serious funding into encouraging indegenious industry and yes have them compete on a global level with the likes of dell etc.

We need to be focused and develop new industries, green power would be certainly an area we could lead in. Following the nordic examples is the way to go small populations not much greater then ours developing their automotive industries, providing technology to the world, doing research and development here run by irish people, designed by them and not just having manufacturing based here which leaves on a whim when offered cheaper labour somewhere else.

There are those not up for this that think its easier to keep suckling off the tit of multinationals ie ahh to hell with that its easier just to attract, we are not good at developing our own companies...i.e defeatist attitude. Its not about resources or human manpower. Its about ingenuity, intelligence and believing in the people of this countries ability to compete with the best in the world. We need to specialise in developing things. The whole specialising in a knowledge economy was not a good idea. You have nothing to show for it, trying to attract companies in because we have a highly skilled workforce was fine until poland, china etc started to do the same thing. Doesn't work. Instead of trying to do this we should be trying to concentrate on developing products, ideas and being world leaders in this area. Thats something which requires engenuity something not so easily replicated. To do this we need some major seaschanges in a number of areas.

Our archaic education system also needs an overhaul. It's all based about training people to follow simple commands and regurgitate information. We need to start encouraging people to use their minds and be innovative then back this up with funding not teaching people to learn how profit and loss accounts work. We need a nation of thinkers, leaders and innovators not a nation of people who know how to pack pc's into boxes.


The swedes, danish, dutch and noweigans have all done it and continue to do so. Lets not sink into the attitude of feeling sorry for ourselves, acting like drunkards of the west again, little ole us can't do anything. Lets get up and demand action. We've been begging for too long to avoid taking responsibility for ourselves and i see our politicans god love them are at it again. They don't learn unfortunately, not their fault they are a product of the previous system and we do need a change of leadership badly. We don't need another lisbon we need to look after ourselves. People are asking for alternatives? perhaps ganley and libertas, at least he has experience in business and knows what it takes to succeed in business. He also seems like he actually cares about the country and the people and not me fein like the current crop (Don't take that as a political endorsement just a suggestion for change)

We have never really tried to develop our own industries to compete on a global level and when we did we never put some serious funding or effort into it just piecemeal efforts.

As a previous poster pointed out timoney is a perfect example. I myself know the loops the ida makes you jump through to get a grant and funding for any innovative idea and when they do give it out its based on special interests. They are more interested in bureaucracy and form filling then getting native industries up and running. This needs to change also. There needs to be oversight of these people to ensure targets are being met and the interests of our country and economy are being supported.

Simple fact is this the global downturn has proven how vunerable we are and we are forced to change or things will end up like in the 1980's or worse. Its our choice..

oscarBravo

luckat wrote: »

The American multinationals in Ireland are (almost all) typical of the late-20th-century model of capitalism, which is utterly profit-centred, rather than the 'Protestant Ethic' model, which was to build a company that worked well for all involved: customers, workers and shareholders.

This is a model that's shaking itself to bits at the moment; maybe we'd be better to go back to the older model founded by the Puritans?

Sure, why not. All you have to do is be able to produce a higher-quality product than Dell at a lower price.

How hard can it be?

Dob74

O'Morris wrote: »

They wrote a follow-up to that book in 2006 called IQ and Global Inequality. It replies to some of the criticism made of first book. Depressingly, Ireland's average IQ was found to be only 92.

I know it's painful but we just have to accept that we don't have the human resources in this country to compete economically with other developed countries. We tried that policy back before the 1960s and we failed miserably. We don't have what it takes to 'go it alone'. We'll just need to stick with our policy of trying to attract foreign investors from countries with more innovative, intelligent and industrious populations than our own.

I still wouldn't thrust this book. But if your general point is we aren't as smart as we think are. I would have to agree with you. I am sure Indians and chinese are just as intelligent as we are and will work for alot less. The only thing we have going for us now is low corporate taxes and we are close to the US and europe.

ejmaztec

Dob74 wrote: »

I still wouldn't thrust this book. But if your general point is we aren't as smart as we think are. I would have to agree with you. I am sure Indians and chinese are just as intelligent as we are and will work for alot less. The only thing we have going for us now is low corporate taxes and we are close to the US and europe.

If Obama decides to rein in the overseas American corporations and drag them back to the homeland, then there will be no more coming here.

As for Europe, I don't think that Ireland is close enough to the action. Everybody knows how expensive Ireland has become, so somebody is going to have their work cut out for them.

When you take a drive around Central and Eastern Europe and see the brand spanking new factories all over the place, you can tell that investors have got no incentive to come in this direction. One of the new ones that I spotted in the Czech Republic was owned by a German company, Kostal. I was wondering why they still had a couple of places in Ireland. As they manufacture auto parts, and have since put many of their Irish workers on short time, I can see them vanishing soon, leaving a few hundred more on the dole.

This is no time for a country to be run by procrastinating incompetents.

Dob74

ejmaztec wrote: »

If Obama decides to rein in the overseas American corporations and drag them back to the homeland, then there will be no more coming here.

As for Europe, I don't think that Ireland is close enough to the action. Everybody knows how expensive Ireland has become, so somebody is going to have their work cut out for them.

When you take a drive around Central and Eastern Europe and see the brand spanking new factories all over the place, you can tell that investors have got no incentive to come in this direction. One of the new ones that I spotted in the Czech Republic was owned by a German company, Kostal. I was wondering why they still had a couple of places in Ireland. As they manufacture auto parts, and have since put many of their Irish workers on short time, I can see them vanishing soon, leaving a few hundred more on the dole.

This is no time for a country to be run by procrastinating incompetents.

We are in a tough spot. We can kiss nearly all our manfacturing goodbye. We got too full of ourselves. We are way too expensive. Dell closing has been on the cards for awhile and still nothing was done. This place could be like Greece in a year:mad:

ejmaztec

Dob74 wrote: »

We are in a tough spot. We can kiss nearly all our manfacturing goodbye. We got too full of ourselves. We are way too expensive. Dell closing has been on the cards for awhile and still nothing was done. This place could be like Greece in a year:mad:

Excluding the sunshine and the cheap booze.:(

ROC1977

oxygen wrote: »

Points I would agree with:

We need to reduce the national minimum wage, or if possibly, more the average 3rd level grad wage. Its currently €8.somthing here. In Poland its €3. It would be tough times for us, but worth it in the long run. The only problem is the like of myself (and plenty of Limerick people I'm sure), who are tied into 30 year mortgage payments.

I would say if we lower the Corp tax any more, the EU will come down pretty hard on us. It's fairly low as it is.

I think we need to support more homegrown business models. The last two companies I worked for were Irish companies, and the EI were more of a hindrance than a help, seriously.

And on your point on Irish not being intelligent enough to support Irish business is a non sensible point, you should stop making it.

Sorry lads but you can't just lower minimum wage. The problem is the cost of living in this country. We let it go up and up and up in the last 10 years. 8.65 is min wage here in Poland around 3. Buy anything in Poland of at least 60% cheaper than Ireland. We are the second most expensive country in the EU to live in.
So the only way to lower wage is to lower the cost of living.

And the comments about IQ come on Morris. Speak for youself! lol
National averages have nothing to do with how a country can compete on a global scale. It only takes a small percentage of so called high IQ people to start an Irish owned business. This countries problem is the TD's and ministers are only out for personal gain. Just like the bank managers and most others on the top tier of the pay scales.
Cowen knows he won't be in control of the country come next election. Willie O'dea and that thick cow went to the states in December for what?
I'll tell you what to sort out how much employees will recieve when the plant closes. Nothing else, but may be a free holiday in Texas.
If the so called low IQ'd factory workers knew when the poland plant was being built that Dell would be pulling out. How comes the government didn't know.
I'm just going to stop typing now, as I know I'll work myself up.

Just one more thing. I@ve heard Banta have given their employees 6 weeks for every year, not capped and not only that. Six of their best weeks including shift money and Overtime.
A friend of mine, more or less the same money per hr as me. I'm in Dell 12 years they are in banta 10 years. I'm getting approx 28000, compared to 61000 from Banta.
And thats why alot Dell employees are p1ssed off. Because alot of the lads from Banta work alongside Dell lads doing the same work. And end up shafted.
Thats what you get for your loyalty to a job. Even people in Dell 7 years are getting the same money as people their 15 years. Due to the 52 to weeks cap. And thats almost criminal.:mad:

BuachaillAbroad

Dob74 wrote: »

We are in a tough spot. We can kiss nearly all our manfacturing goodbye. We got too full of ourselves. We are way too expensive. Dell closing has been on the cards for awhile and still nothing was done. This place could be like Greece in a year:mad:

I think in Ireland there is a serious problem regarding manufacturing: I think a majority of Irish people think if you work in a job where your hands get dirty then somehow you are below them.

Look at Germany & Japan: there having a manufacturing job is rated highly...then look at the UK & how f***ed they've become in manufacturing (British Leyland for example)

Honestly I think manufacturing in Ireland is being killed off. My dad is a weaver & has a small woollen mill (Only employ 5 people). For years the IDA has been pushing him to outsource to India & China...WTF: a small business having all there products made in China then packaged in Ireland as "Made in Ireland"?!...Which happens by the way!!

We have 5 dyeing vats which is about 20% of the national dyeing capacity of ireland in our small mill! Bloody joke

Ireland is a small country but we are the first stop from US to Europe: we should be a hub for Europe or US manufacture...we just need the drive to do it

Just look at the Dail: all accountants, lawyers, bankers, philosphers...not an engineer (well I think yer man Ryan from the Greens is but still), tradesman there at all...
I don't know who said it but I think it really sums up my feelings:
"A country that loses its manufacturing emasculates itself"
.
.
.
So concludes my rant!!

Dob74

ejmaztec wrote: »

If Obama decides to rein in the overseas American corporations and drag them back to the homeland, then there will be no more coming here.

As for Europe, I don't think that Ireland is close enough to the action. Everybody knows how expensive Ireland has become, so somebody is going to have their work cut out for them.

When you take a drive around Central and Eastern Europe and see the brand spanking new factories all over the place, you can tell that investors have got no incentive to come in this direction. One of the new ones that I spotted in the Czech Republic was owned by a German company, Kostal. I was wondering why they still had a couple of places in Ireland. As they manufacture auto parts, and have since put many of their Irish workers on short time, I can see them vanishing soon, leaving a few hundred more on the dole.

This is no time for a country to be run by procrastinating incompetents.

Obama could do for ireland, what Bush did for Iraq..........:(:(

ejmaztec

Dob74 wrote: »

Obama could do for ireland, what Bush did for Iraq..........:(:(

In view of today's news, I won't mention the names of any other new factories that I saw in the Czech Republic. :eek:


http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0115/kostal.html

Dob74

ejmaztec wrote: »

In view of today's news, I won't mention the names of any other new factories that I saw in the Czech Republic. :eek:


http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0115/kostal.html

A+

Well spoted, Sad day for Mallow.

Tell me more of future.

Here's one, bord Gais are going to report record profits.
Privatisation is already in the works.

jdivision

The reality is that this decision was made months ago. O'Dea and Coghlan flew out afterwards. Why? To be seen to do something about it, not to ACTUALLY do something about it. The local investors rumour is the same thing. It's so the politicians can say sure we tried everything. If the Govt had really cared, they would have gone over in September when the review of the plant's future was underway. Instead they went after a national newspaper wrote that the decision had already been made and then leaked their "last minute rescue bid" to other newspapers.

ejmaztec

Dob74 wrote: »

A+

Well spoted, Sad day for Mallow.

Tell me more of future.

Here's one, bord Gais are going to report record profits.
Privatisation is already in the works.

Unfortunately I can't get a new crystal ball due to the Waterford Crystal situation.

Dob74

BuachaillAbroad wrote: »

I think in Ireland there is a serious problem regarding manufacturing: I think a majority of Irish people think if you work in a job where your hands get dirty then somehow you are below them.

Look at Germany & Japan: there having a manufacturing job is rated highly...then look at the UK & how f***ed they've become in manufacturing (British Leyland for example)

Honestly I think manufacturing in Ireland is being killed off. My dad is a weaver & has a small woollen mill (Only employ 5 people). For years the IDA has been pushing him to outsource to India & China...WTF: a small business having all there products made in China then packaged in Ireland as "Made in Ireland"?!...Which happens by the way!!

We have 5 dyeing vats which is about 20% of the national dyeing capacity of ireland in our small mill! Bloody joke

Ireland is a small country but we are the first stop from US to Europe: we should be a hub for Europe or US manufacture...we just need the drive to do it

Just look at the Dail: all accountants, lawyers, bankers, philosphers...not an engineer (well I think yer man Ryan from the Greens is but still), tradesman there at all...
I don't know who said it but I think it really sums up my feelings:
"A country that loses its manufacturing emasculates itself"
.
.
.
So concludes my rant!!

+1

Why does the gov think finanical instituations are going to set up hear. I wouldn't touch this place with a ten foot pole. Bad planning, everything too expensive(insurance, esb, etc.) corruption. We need to produce things and stop living in the dream world, where we are all kings and our servants(the chinese) will make everything cheap. China is going to have to float its currency soon, nevermind call in some of the money they lent to the yanks.
"You most produce something with your life and stop trying to live off the buying and selling of others" Karl Fox to Bud Fox in Wall Street(1987)