Dell and Gov response

sovtek

Big_Mac wrote: »

Maybe, but it would be too late as they would already be on their arse. Hindsight is a wonderful thing

It's also a great warning to people who would sell out their collegues.

CtrlSource

Why was Willie O'Dea sent? Should it not have been Micheal Martin? Obviously Mary Coughlan had to go since she's the Minister for Enterprise, but why oh why send Willie...

(answer: because he's from Limerick :rolleyes:)

Schuhart

mike65 wrote: »

White knight coming over the hill?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/highlevel-talks-held--to-secure-dell-jobs-1588564.html

Feck, I hope not. This 'businessman's' initiative seems to amount to getting the Government to subsidise the Dell plant. That's simply not a solution.

jmayo

Darragh29 wrote: »

This talk of Dell letting go 2,000 people is really showing up our "partnership" model for what it really is.

Partnership only ever looked after public sector and a few ex-public sector companeis i.e. Eircom, Aer Lingus.

Dob74 wrote: »

I feel sorry for the government being caught blind sided by a Muilti-National, that is going to move because it is more profitable to do so. Its an economic phenomenon know as "WHAT THE FCUK DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN" as soon as they saw more profits elsewhere.

The writing has been on the wall for this for a number of years.
Dell will always go where it is cheapest to do business and that ain't Ireland any longer.
They moved low level user support services to India years ago, so anyone that thinks this is a surprise is an idiot. Of course that could describe our government.

Sending that mare Coughlan and the gremlin O'Dea over to Texas must have had Dell laughing his ar** off.

To the posters of the lets strike mindset, join the public sector if that his your attitude.
Heavy unionised industry is one of the main reasons there is no longer a British car industry.
Unionisation and strikes will make sure the few other multinationals remaining get jumpy and the chances of luring anyone else here would be slim.

Btw who ever said that Dell manufacturing jobs were high end, highly skilled, knowledge economy jobs knows f*** all about a knowledge economy, much like our government.

sovtek

jmayo wrote: »

Heavy unionised industry is one of the main reasons there is no longer a British car industry.

Really? I thought it was because they made **** cars when there were more dependable cars being made by the Germans and the Japanese. The former being heavily unionised as well.

Btw who ever said that Dell manufacturing jobs were high end, highly skilled, knowledge economy jobs knows f*** all about a knowledge economy, much like our government.

I'll agree with you there. This government has taken the method of attracting FDI (from a previous government) from overseas and then didn't know that you are supposed to use it to support your local industry to create better jobs. Instead they have used it to galavant around the world on junkets, "lending" MNC's millions, buying them blow jobs and who knows what else just so they can come and make a few bucks before ****ing off somewhere else.
There are banana republics in Africa run better.

Danuogma

sovtek wrote: »

Really? I thought it was because they made **** cars when there were more dependable cars being made by the Germans and the Japanese. The former being heavily unionised as well.

That probably had something to do with the fact that the industries that backed up the motor industry in the UK hit the wall in the 70s/80s. The steel industry was taken out on purpose by Thatcher and co in the late 70s and early 80s, as a result cars were being built with sub-standard materials (stuff that the Germans and Japs would not use). Before 1975 the British motor industry could match anything that Germany or Japan could produce and quality was high. I spent a few years in Longbridge in the 80s, the workers there were more than a match for their German and Japanese counterparts. The motor industry was put under on purpose, that was very apparent.

jmayo

sovtek wrote: »

Really? I thought it was because they made **** cars when there were more dependable cars being made by the Germans and the Japanese. The former being heavily unionised as well.

Yeah but the German's didn't stike every other day.
Britain in the 70s was so stop start due to stikes all over the place.
I do agree you do have a point that the car build quality was lower than those of the Japanese and the Germans.
The other thing was some of their designs were utter cr** which didn't help either.

Danuogma wrote: »

That probably had something to do with the fact that the industries that backed up the motor industry in the UK hit the wall in the 70s/80s. The steel industry was taken out on purpose by Thatcher and co in the late 70s and early 80s, as a result cars were being built with sub-standard materials (stuff that the Germans and Japs would not use). Before 1975 the British motor industry could match anything that Germany or Japan could produce and quality was high. I spent a few years in Longbridge in the 80s, the workers there were more than a match for their German and Japanese counterparts. The motor industry was put under on purpose, that was very apparent.

I would say that UK car industry was in trouble long before Thatcher.
The whole British Leyland consortium finished not alone the car industry but also the biggest indigenous truck and tractor manufacturers.
Look at the build quality of things like the Maxi, the Morris Marina, the Princess. Added to that the designs were often not great.
Japanese cars were miles ahead (bar the rusting issues) and began to eat into market.
Jeeze the build quality of even the Land Rover models were cr** until BMW started to sort them out.

silverharp

jmayo wrote: »

I would say that UK car industry was in trouble long before Thatcher.
The whole British Leyland consortium finished not alone the car industry but also the biggest indigenous truck and tractor manufacturers.
Look at the build quality of things like the Maxi, the Morris Marina, the Princess. Added to that the designs were often not great.
Japanese cars were miles ahead (bar the rusting issues) and began to eat into market.
Jeeze the build quality of even the Land Rover models were cr** until BMW started to sort them out.

Clarksons view of it:) , it almost seems comical now to think that a gov. run car company could compete with the Germans or Japanese. well see if the US gov makes a better job of it:pac::pac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4S5uTBVK6U

jmayo

silverharp wrote: »

Clarksons view of it:) , it almost seems comical now to think that a gov. run car company could compete with the Germans or Japanese. well see if the US gov makes a better job of it:pac::pac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4S5uTBVK6U

It's not just Clarkson's view of it.
Are you trying to hint that anyone that finds/found fault with the way the British car industry went and the quality of the cars they produced was a Thatcherite :rolleyes:
The car quality was cr**, a bit like the qaulity produced by some other European countries.

BTW American cars in general have a long way to go to catch up with Japanese and European counterparts.

Fratton Fred

My first car was a morris ital. It was awful, mainly in its design. it was a car built in 1982 using an engine designed in 1962.

There was no investment in the company, due to poor management and an infelxible workforce. I don't see how this relates to Dell though. dell are doing what they were always going to do, they are just in a lot more urgency now because they are struggling as much as any other maker of "Luxury" goods.

silverharp

It was painful listening to the RTE news this evening. Can we bail out Waterford Crystal, WTF , If Ireland Inc is depending on the waterford crystal brand we really are screwed.

ejmaztec

silverharp wrote: »

It was painful listening to the RTE news this evening. Can we bail out Waterford Crystal, WTF , If Ireland Inc is depending on the waterford crystal brand we really are screwed.

I think that had there been no recession, they would soon have lost all of the jobs in Ireland to the Far-East and Central and Eastern-Europe anyway. The management would have had no conscience over that. The group's been teetering for years.

old boy

pity dobson did not ask cullen for his take on pee flynns young wan

silverharp wrote: »

It was painful listening to the RTE news this evening. Can we bail out Waterford Crystal, WTF , If Ireland Inc is depending on the waterford crystal brand we really are screwed.

oxygen_old

If Dell send 2,500 jobs to Poland, how many Polish people do you think we will see emigrating from Ireland. Poland has a highly educated population, like Ireland, it could be a case in 5-10 years that they have a lot of Irish immigration.

Blazer

Looks like the big announcement is tomorrow for Limerick.
Dell is setting up a room now for a huge meeting. 500 chairs+ tv

Sick Bhoy

Any idea if this will affect cherrywood?

ntlbell

Sick Bhoy wrote: »

Any idea if this will affect cherrywood?

so far manufacturing only

but I wouldn't be surprised to see cherry wood go in the near future

ROC1977

jobs start to go from April. 1900 jobs gone within 12 months. 6 weeks for every year capped at 52 weeks. Some one like me who's there 12 years thats a kick in the stones. 12 months pay with out shift allowance is ****. I knew that tight **** would screw us.

On a plus note... all the people who do nothing already will keep their jobs. IT, logistics, supply chain. Management have yet again set up all their buddys with new job without posting them on any jobs notice boards.

jmayo

Sorry opened new thread forgot about this old one ...

Anyway Dell announce "release" of 1900 workers this year and are phasing out or rather transistioning their production to Poland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0108/dell.html

Anybody any ideas what sh*** wee Willie will come out with ?

As someone that lived and worked in Limerick for number of years, I knew/know many people that worked in Dell and it is a sad day for them and their families. All I can say is I hope things work out.

Some of the posts over on the Limerick forum show the despair of those linked to the people being laid off.
Sadly some other posters show how infantile some of the thinking in this country has become, with calls for the governmnet to offer tax breaks to Dell in order for them to stay, another hoping Dell go bust becuase they are abandoning Limerick, one appearing to live in cloud cuckoo land, ala the current government, saying things aren't that bad and sure something will always turn up.

The writing was on the wall, for the last 9 odd years or more ever since Gateway went in Santry, that Dell would pull out their manufacturing from Ireland. It was not going to be cost effective for them to stay in a high cost environment on the edge of their markets.
Over the years those costs became higher.
Their competitors are manufacturing in Far East or China and it was so obvious Dell were not going to stay in a very costly Ireland.
Actually that they stayed this long, in a weird way, is something we should be some what grateful for, but coming at this time it still just heeps more misery on a region and the entire economy.

What was ever done about the looming disaster?
There was never a move to avert the major dependency one city and region has had on one single non-locally owned and controlled industry.
Feeling that Dell should have stayed becuase they owe something is nonsense, but feeling that once again the industrial planners, the financial institutions and the governments did nothing to create a more conducive environment for job creation in areas other than the retail and construction related leaves one angry.

Sick Bhoy

ROC1977 wrote: »

jobs start to go from April. 1900 jobs gone within 12 months. 6 weeks for every year capped at 52 weeks. Some one like me who's there 12 years thats a kick in the stones. 12 months pay with out shift allowance is ****. I knew that tight **** would screw us.

On a plus note... all the people who do nothing already will keep their jobs. IT, logistics, supply chain. Management have yet again set up all their buddys with new job without posting them on any jobs notice boards.

sorry to read that, are all dell employees subject to that?

office staff, sales etc

The Mighty Ken

ROC1977 wrote: »

Some one like me who's there 12 years thats a kick in the stones. 12 months pay with out shift allowance is ****. I knew that tight **** would screw us.

Eh, hang on a second. Are you saying that you allowed yourself to become completely institutionalised in a multinational company for the last 12 years under the pretence that you'd secured 'a job for life' or something? I don't really see how that's Dell's fault. They're moving to a cheaper country to lower the cost of business. That's how the world works. That's how companies work. Dell don't owe anyone anything.

What have you done to protect yourself in the event of this (the inevitable IMO) happening? Have you learnt any industry-level skills that you can take with you, whether it be to another company or another country? If not, that was very short-sighted.

I am completely sympathetic to anyone who loses their job. I know how it feels from personal experience. Especially if you have a family to provide for, a mortgage to pay, etc. However I just can't understand how people who were working in Dell for the last 12 years or so weren't prepared for this eventuality. Is the 'job for life' mentality still that strong in Ireland? Time to move into the 21st century people.

ROC1977 wrote: »

On a plus note... all the people who do nothing already will keep their jobs. IT, logistics, supply chain. Management have yet again set up all their buddys with new job without posting them on any jobs notice boards.

You're hardly going to garner any sympathy by slating your colleagues just because they've kept their jobs (for now) and you haven't.

lostexpectation

tainaiste speaks: disappointed
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Tanaiste-deeply-disappointed-at-Dells.4855995.jp

Mr. Incognito

Originally Posted by ROC1977
Some one like me who's there 12 years thats a kick in the stones. 12 months pay with out shift allowance is ****. I knew that tight **** would screw us.

Eh, hang on a second. Are you saying that you allowed yourself to become completely institutionalised in a multinational company for the last 12 years under the pretence that you'd secured 'a job for life' or something? I don't really see how that's Dell's fault. They're moving to a cheaper country to lower the cost of business. That's how the world works. That's how companies work. Dell don't owe anyone anything.

What have you done to protect yourself in the event of this (the inevitable IMO) happening? Have you learnt any industry-level skills that you can take with you, whether it be to another company or another country? If not, that was very short-sighted.

I am completely sympathetic to anyone who loses their job. I know how it feels from personal experience. Especially if you have a family to provide for, a mortgage to pay, etc. However I just can't understand how people who were working in Dell for the last 12 years or so weren't prepared for this eventuality. Is the 'job for life' mentality still that strong in Ireland? Time to move into the 21st century people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ROC1977
On a plus note... all the people who do nothing already will keep their jobs. IT, logistics, supply chain. Management have yet again set up all their buddys with new job without posting them on any jobs notice boards.

You're hardly going to garner any sympathy by slating your colleagues just because they've kept their jobs (for now) and you haven't.

That's bang out of order. If I'd just lost my job of 12 years I think i'd be entitled to a moan. Grow up ffs.

old boy

this has been on the cards since the factory in poland was built, managers and trainers were sent over there to train people, polish people were handpicked to go home by dell.
the ida gov etc had their heads in the sand, the usual it will be all right mabey something will happen,.
people who were unprepared espically theose in the gov and ida should be fired with the same redundancy packages as dell employees.

The Mighty Ken

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

That's bang out of order. If I'd just lost my job of 12 years I think i'd be entitled to a moan. Grow up ffs.

Calling the company 'tight ****s' and blaming colleagues fortunate enough to have kept their jobs isn't really that constructive. At the end of the day, it's really down to what the poster can do for himself/herself now. I'd that have thought by now that people would realise that in a capitalist society that becoming completely dependent on a multinational was a bad idea is all.

As I said, I do sympathise with anyone who loses their job and, indeed, I know exactly how it feels. My main point is that depending on 'a job for life' in this day and age can be dangerous if you don't have any kind of contingency.

I wouldn't blame anyone for having a moan either. It's only natural. But it might be an idea of get a sense of perspective, reality and to be more stoic and resourceful in light of bad times. I would find it particularly worrying if all 1,900 people let go from Dell were completely institutionalised and unqualified to work elsewhere.

Mr. Incognito

I wouldn't blame anyone for having a moan either

Really? your posts beg to differ.

But it might be an idea of get a sense of perspective, reality and to be more stoic and resourceful in light of bad times. I would find it particularly worrying if all 1,900 people let go from Dell were completely institutionalised and unqualified to work elsewhere.

Are you having a laugh. It doesn't matter how trained and skilled the guy is. The jobs are flying out the door of this country mate, and you'd better wake the fcuk up because that could be any of us in the dole next week bo matter how highly qualified. I've solicitor mates pumping gas. Are you going to blame them for not insulating themselves from the downturn too?

People become dependent on jobs because they have to. ALL jobs. There are shops dependent on Dell becasue they sell sandwiches and coffee to their employees. Is that there fault. An economic opportunity exists and people exploit it. That's Capitalism as you've just quoted. Now that opportunity no longer exists and instead of sitting in you ivory tower with your head up your arse you should grow up.

The Mighty Ken

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Really? your posts beg to differ.

Moan where it's justified.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

you'd better wake the fcuk up

To what exactly? Aren't we all in the same boat? I'm well aware of what's going on to be honest and it will more than likely effect me as much as anyone else. I just didn't sit around pissing and moaning about it as I have to make the best of a bad situation.

mike dee

Ok before I start sorry to all those in Limerick who have lost your jobs. I have experienced this 2x in my life and I am in my late twenties and Uni-educated so I understand.

Now- Hopefully many of these people can use their experience and go and be involved in building proper computers, not the bundle of sh** that dell stuffs into boxes and attaches power cables to. If anyone of these people are interested I know computer repair business is boooooming, so maybe few will find jobs there.

Money (and lots of it, at least 100 Million) needs to be found for deployment in creating IRISH companies that MAKE something, not useless financial services companies, or multinationals that extol their gra for Ireland, and then pull out when tax breaks are over. We need to develop intrinsic value, that is not the property/construction sector.
Additionally serious efforts need to be made to upskill a lot of people and also to only attract high quality investment.

I can attest to the fact, that despite what anyone tells you R and D in Ireland is a joke. We have no serious science, the majority of our scientists are far from world class, and any attempt to say is a PR exercise. To start up a Science/high tech company millions are required, which is not a valuable in Ireland. Anyone with serious idea has to get funding abroad, and this applied not just now but also during the height of the Celtic tiger.

The people of Limerick, and Ireland better remember who presided over this mess when the next elections come about and suitably vote out their FF and Green TDs. They have allowed this situation to escalate with no leadership.

ROC1977

your missing my point Mighty Ken. I'm not complaining that work mates kept jobs. I'm not happy that lots of jobs internally in Dell were being created and given to a number of people without being advertised internally against company policy. It goes on in there all the time.
Plus the package being given is 6 weeks (including government) without 20% shift allowance and over time. And then capped at 52 weeks pay. My point is that its barely 2/3rds of a years wages for everyone in there.
Never thought Dell would be a job for life, nor am I stupid. I just find the timing for me personally is bad. And the bull sh1t and lies we had to listen to over the past few years.
Even awhile ago Willie Odea was on the news saying that the employees are getting a very good servance package?!? WTF?

The average wage is 10 to 14 euros an hour. The average payout for someone working there about 10 years will be roughly 20,000 euros.

patnor1011

Dont you folks think that something has to be done? Dell enjoyed years of tax breaks, cheap labor and now when its time to hold on they are suddenly moving elsewhere. Yeah its economic crisis and tough times but they cant just leave and say thanks for everything and sorry we have to go... Then we shall say thanks for everything we enjoy work for dell but we have to go too and move from dell computers /which by the way are not the best in world/ and start something like boycott dell products and let them know that they have to pay too. This is one of the best moves used to push or used to achieve something...
Just my 2 cents...