DJs - Musicians or Glorified playlists

Dongasaurus

I've been discussing this with a fellow dj for the past while and was wondering some other opinions on this.

Do you think DJs are actual musicians or just facilitators for a good time?

In my opinion I think a DJ is a dj, just there to play the best tracks mixed as best as they can. Mixing and selecting the right songs is a definate skill, but I find it hard to think of the people that have it as genuine musicians.

What do you think?

Rockshamrover

It all depends on wether or not the DJ is playing music that he personally wrote or recorded. If he is just playing records he bought in a shop then the only skill involved is in gauging his audience and playing songs they will like.

A bit "stars in their eyes" if you like. Entertaining but not the real deal.

Scubadevils

Welcome, this should be a heated topic for a first post/thread!

I think they are neither musician nor glorified playlists but somewhere in between depending upon their ability etc. Also depends on the type of DJ, be it one who selects a few tracks to keep people happy at a wedding or one that needs to craft a set of the most up to date slices of techno for a discerning crowd of hard to please clubbers.

PeakOutput

troll tbh


you tube dj am, dj yoda, dmc world championships, they arent always musicians lol but the good ones are all artists

Scubadevils

PeakOutput wrote: »

troll tbh


you tube dj am, dj yoda, dmc world championships, they arent always musicians lol but the good ones are all artists

Was kinda wondering that while typing a response...

brianc27

anyone who thinks a dj is a musician is a fcuking spa

Dongasaurus

I'm not at all trolling! I was genuinely wondering what peoples opinions were.

I'd agree people like DJ shadow and yoda et all are savage people are what they do, and are musicians in their own right as they produce and record their own music but was wondering what people thought of guys and girls working in the big clubs earning ridiculous amounts for half hour sets etc.

I suppose it's just all part of the pretention that you see sometimes in the scene.

richie rich08

Djs are not musicians,
i would even consider someone who produces dance music to be a musician but more of an artist i suppose?
Djs playing at 21st/Weddings etc etc
and are hailed as good are clearly only recieving credit for there playlists

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

anyone who thinks a dj is a musician is a fcuking spa

Anyone who can't use capital letters and thinks "spa" is a valid insult is a child.

Someone who plays in a pub or commercial nightclub isn't a musician. Someone who can hold a floor of 12,000 people for 5 hours is*.



*or is Scooter, unfortunately

brianc27

fcuk off, so are you saying someone playing on a set of decks is a musician, are you trying to tell me a record player, or some sort of mixing software is an instrument.

holding 12,000 people on a dancefloor for 5 hrs doesnt make you a musician, unless of course your playing......hold on...wait for it A FCUKING MUSICAL INSTRUMENT

L1011

Go learn how to DJ and come back to me, OK? Might want to learn how to type as well.

Scubadevils

Two spoons can be considered a musical instrument with the right person holding them.

brianc27

so are you telling me a dj is a musician

i stand by my assertion, anyone who claims a dj is a musician is a fcuking spa.

bare in mind im not referring to anyone playing a proper live set of there own material incorperating independant elements (kick, bass, cymbals, synths, pads), blending them live together in some sort of arrangement to make new sounds.

L1011

If you can't blend two records/CDs together to make new sounds, you're not a particularly good DJ.

When used by a skilled operator, decks are as much a musical instrument as any other electronic instrument. Mixers even more so, particularly modern ones.

brianc27

jesus henry christ

i've heard it all now, playing other peoples music does not make you a musician, you might be a deadly dj, but you cetianly are not a musician.

L1011

I'm not claiming I am, I'm claiming there are those out there who are. To claim otherwise is ignorance - which you're also demonstrating with the typing and language skills of a 12 year old. Cursing isn't big and it isn't clever.

A (good) DJ is a performer - there are countless other musicians who do nothing but perform others works. Doesn't make them any less of a musician.

jtsuited

brianc27 wrote: »

.wait for it A FCUKING MUSICAL INSTRUMENT

QUOTE=brianc27;58358010]
bare in mind im not referring to anyone playing a proper live set of there own material incorperating independant elements (kick, bass, cymbals, synths, pads), blending them live together in some sort of arrangement to make new sounds.[/QUOTE]

hmmm...


dictionary definition of a 'musician' is a person who is talented or skilled in music.

Obviously a DJ can be both these things. When you think musician, you're probably actually thinking of instrumentalist. Which is someone who plays , wait for it, a musical instrument.

seannash

brianc27 wrote: »

fcuk off, so are you saying someone playing on a set of decks is a musician, are you trying to tell me a record player, or some sort of mixing software is an instrument.

holding 12,000 people on a dancefloor for 5 hrs doesnt make you a musician, unless of course your playing......hold on...wait for it A FCUKING MUSICAL INSTRUMENT

i wont use such strong words but hes right,theres no way djs are musicians.
lets stop glorifying this profession and call it for what it is.were playing other peoples records.
now ill concede that people like qbert and the likes are using turntables in a musical way and to an extent playing them like an instrument but most of us on here arent into that sort of djing i imagine.
if you make your own tracks you can claim to be an artist but then again imo it sounds a bit snobby to do so especially if your banging out electrohouse tracks,which are totally soul less.
there is of course skill in controlling a crowd and playing the right tracks at the right time and mixing well but this is not what constitutes a musician.
now people are gonna come along and claim there using ableton to make there own remixes when really there just using loops of other peoples creations and slapping them together.big whoop,a five year old could do that,its like using lego,its all synced up its not going to **** up.ill agree that there are some inspired mashups and ableton sets but again your still not a musician imo because your relying on other peoples material in order to perform.
all the mystery is gone from djing,everyone knows whats going on behind the scenes and technology is also removing what little human involvement is left from it.now djs are celebrated coz they know more technical knowlege than possessing any dj skill

brianc27

MYOB wrote: »

there are countless other musicians who do nothing but perform others works. .

by playing an instrument and or reading music

a dj is a dj, not a musician

jtsuited

brianc27 wrote: »

jesus henry christ

i've heard it all now, playing other peoples music does not make you a musician, you might be a deadly dj, but you cetianly are not a musician.

ok just to shut you up on it now, go read the definition of the word 'musician'.

being a 'deadly dj' (as you call it), surely requires skill and/or talent in some entity relating to music.
therefore, a 'deadly DJ' would indeed technically be a musician.

case closed?

brianc27

seannash wrote: »

now ill concede that people like qbert and the likes are using turntables in a musical way and to an extent playing them like an instrument but most of us on here arent into that sort of djing i imagine.

thats turntablism though, still not a musician.

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

by playing an instrument and or reading music

a dj is a dj, not a musician

Decks are no less an instrument than many others. It takes skill, practice, learning to be able to use them properly - just as with any other device that can alter or produce music.

If your attitude is that a DJ puts in a CD, maybe half-arsedly beatmatches it with the previous track and stands there flicking through a caselogic for 5 minutes, you'd get the idea that there's no musical talent involved. However, thats not the only type of DJing.

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

thats turntablism though, still not a musician.

So what is your definition of a musician, then? Seems to be stupidly tightly defined (so as to prove your point).

seannash

brianc27 wrote: »

thats turntablism though, still not a musician.

easy man im agreeing with you.they are manipulating the turntable and generating a musical note and isnt this what you do when you play an instrument .its as close to musician as djing will ever get and if someone was arguing from that standpoint id let them have the argument on that one

brianc27

A musician creates music, wether its there own or not they create it through an intrument, be it their voice, a guitar, a trumpet, A DJ does not create the music they are playing, lets be clear here im not talking about electronic music producers who might create new sounds out of independant elements , im referring to djs.

L1011

Its entirely possible to create sounds when DJing, as I said earlier - if you can't, you're not a very good DJ.

seannash

brianc27 wrote: »

A musician creates music, wether its there own or not they create it through an intrument, be it their voice, a guitar, a trumpet, A DJ does not create the music they are playing, lets be clear here im not talking about electronic music producers who might create new sounds out of independant elements , im referring to djs.

but your slating turntablists as not being musicians but they fit your criteria.
i agree that the traditional dj isnt a musician but you have to admit that turntablists skate the line

seannash

MYOB wrote: »

Its entirely possible to create sounds when DJing, as I said earlier - if you can't, you're not a very good DJ.

just out of interest could you explain.i consider myself an above average dj and im pretty positive that im not generating any tones or sounds that arent found in the tracks im playing.
not having a dig or trying to catch you out just interested to see what you mean

L1011

seannash wrote: »

just out of interest could you explain.i consider myself an above average dj and im pretty positive that im not generating any tones or sounds that arent found in the tracks im playing.
not having a dig or trying to catch you out just interested to see what you mean

Obviously you're not generating tones that aren't there - unless you're using a mixer with an effects unit or particularly aggressive filters.

However, you're combining sound elements to create new ones, in a way brianc27's personal definition of a musician covers.

brianc27

seannash wrote: »

but your slating turntablists as not being musicians but they fit your criteria.
i agree that the traditional dj isnt a musician but you have to admit that turntablists skate the line

well yea id agree to an extent turntablists would be the closet a dj can come to being considered a musician, its a fine line though, i personally think of turntablism as a seperate entity, its a skill, an art even.

but traditional djs are not musicians

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

well yea id agree to an extent turntablists would be the closet a dj can come to being considered a musician, its a fine line though, i personally think of turntablism as a seperate entity, its a skill, an art even.

but traditional djs are not musicians

Thats solely because you appear to assume a 'traditional DJ' is the bloke down your local pub.

You provided your own definition of musician that covers proper DJs.

brianc27

seannash wrote: »

just out of interest could you explain.i consider myself an above average dj and im pretty positive that im not generating any tones or sounds that arent found in the tracks im playing.
not having a dig or trying to catch you out just interested to see what you mean

i have to agree with you there, not matter how many loops from different tracks you blend together you are never creating a sound that doesnt already exist in the tracks you a blending together

seannash

MYOB wrote: »

Obviously you're not generating tones that aren't there - unless you're using a mixer with an effects unit or particularly aggressive filters.

However, you're combining sound elements to create new ones, in a way brianc27's personal definition of a musician covers.

yeah thats true but your using other peoples ideas and music to do that and your not really playing or have contributing anything other than selecting what plays.
like putting a drum loop over another tune isnt really creating much(just an example of what you were talking about i think).i kinda understand what your saying though

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

i have to agree with you there, not matter how many loops from different tracks you blend together you are never creating a sound that doesnt already exist in the tracks you a blending together

Using components from different tracks is constructing something out of independent elements. "create new sounds out of independant elements" was under your definition of what a musician is.

Could you make your mind up, please? You don't appear to have a consistent position on this, other than your mantra that DJs aren't musicians, with a tacked on insult to anyone who claims otherwise...

i57dwun4yb1pt8

MYOB wrote: »

If you can't blend two records/CDs together to make new sounds, you're not a particularly good DJ.

When used by a skilled operator, decks are as much a musical instrument as any other electronic instrument. Mixers even more so, particularly modern ones.

err, NO
playing someone elses music on a turntable , no matter how artistic
does NOT make you a musician - its makes you a glorified sound engineer


granted there are chaps who can "scratch" out various tones on a turntable
but its nothing you couldnt do with a good synth and a sampler

learn to play an instrument and come back to us .

if you cannot play an ACOUSTIC instrument (including voice)
you are not a musician

this means piano , guitar , drum, brass, stringed , whatever.

you need to be able to do it without electricity .
not electric guitar, synth, " turntable "


ACOUSTIC = MUSICIAN

all electric based musicians began on acoustic instruments
what do dj's begin on ?

seanybiker

if they make the music themselves rather than just mixing someone elses music then their musicians. Other than that their just brutal

brianc27

MYOB wrote: »

Thats solely because you appear to assume a 'traditional DJ' is the bloke down your local pub.

no im not, you seem to be under the impression i havent a clue about djing or electronic music, ive been djing about 7 years, some as a bedroom dj, some in clubs, ive gone through vinyl, cd, digital.

djs are not musicians

L1011

DaDumTish wrote: »

what a load of crap

playing someone elses music on a turntable , no matter how artistic
does NOT make you a musician - its makes you a glorified sound engineer

learn to play an instrument and come back to us .

Piano, bass guitar; already learnt. Which would you prefer?

Why, so far, have all the people on the "not musician" side been entirely unable to use capital letters and proper punctuation?

brianc27

MYOB wrote: »

Using components from different tracks is constructing something out of independent elements. "create new sounds out of independant elements" was under your definition of what a musician is.

Could you make your mind up, please? You don't appear to have a consistent position on this, other than your mantra that DJs aren't musicians, with a tacked on insult to anyone who claims otherwise...

independent elements that the person had produced themselves, i was simply trying to differentiate a producer who performs their on material in a live pa from a dj, just incase any producers that post here might get a bit hot under the collar thinking im referring to them in any of this.

Royale with Cheese

DJs aren't musicians. There you go, some good punctuation.

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

no im not, you seem to be under the impression i havent a clue about djing or electronic music, ive been djing about 7 years, some as a bedroom dj, some in clubs, ive gone through vinyl, cd, digital.

djs are not musicians

Yes, you are. You gave a definition of a musician which covers what any skilled DJ is capable of doing, yet keep denying DJs are capable of being musicians. This means your view of a DJ is clearly someone who strings together a few tracks with 20 second transitions and could probably be reliably replaced by WinAmp and a large playlist.

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

independent elements that the person had produced themselves, i was simply trying to differentiate a producer who performs their on material in a live pa from a dj, just incase any producers that post here might get a bit hot under the collar thinking im referring to them in any of this.

You never said that, and the very manner in which that post was made makes it clear you didn't mean that - it wouldn't have required saying if you did. You're adding that now to attempt to back-track as you realise you've put yourself in a corner.

brianc27

MYOB wrote: »

You never said that, and the very manner in which that post was made makes it clear you didn't mean that - it wouldn't have required saying if you did. You're adding that now to attempt to back-track as you realise you've put yourself in a corner.

ahem

QUOTE=brianc27;58358010]
bare in mind im not referring to anyone playing a proper live set of their own material incorperating independant elements (kick, bass, cymbals, synths, pads), blending them live together in some sort of arrangement to make new sounds.[/quote]

L1011

brianc27 wrote: »

ahem

brianc27 wrote: »

bare in mind im not referring to anyone playing a proper live set of their own material incorperating independant elements (kick, bass, cymbals, synths, pads), blending them live together in some sort of arrangement to make new sounds.

From a different post, not from your definition of a musician.



I'm not going to argue this any more, I know you're not going to give up trying to justify your horrifically flawed and indeed ever-changing point. A skilled DJ is far more of a musician than the cover acts and fronts for record producers that make up most of our charts these days.

seannash

DaDumTish wrote: »

err, NO
playing someone elses music on a turntable , no matter how artistic
does NOT make you a musician - its makes you a glorified sound engineer

any spanner can mix tracks together with a drum machine a turn table and a synth and a mixer.
me cat could do it .
granted there are chaps who can "scratch" out various tones on a turntable
but its nothing you couldnt do with a good synth and a sampler

learn to play an instrument and come back to us .

if you cannot play an ACOUSTIC instrument (including voice)
you are not a musician
this means piano , guitar , drum, whatever.

you need to be able to do it without electricity .
not electric guitar, synth, " turntable "


ACOUSTIC = MUSICIAN

now thats a bit much,i agree with you to an extent but this croteria is a bit too strict.
everyone who can talk can sing.can they all sing well,no,but they can sing.
i can bash a rhythm on some pads on a controller and itll play drums.now could i do that on a real kit.i dunno.
im not claiming to be a musician but i know a few people who make dance music who dont fit that criteria you posted of an acoustic musician.well i guess they can sing though

seannash

MYOB wrote: »

From a different post, not from your definition of a musician.



I'm not going to argue this any more, I know you're not going to give up trying to justify your horrifically flawed and indeed ever-changing point. A skilled DJ is far more of a musician than the cover acts and fronts for record producers that make up most of our charts these days.

sorry man i kinda saw your point a little but you havent really given any great points to back up your arguement.
besides why do djs want to be considered as musicians.i couldnt give a toss if someone sdaid i wasnt a musician,does it make me less of a dj?

brianc27

there goes one deluded individual

Rockshamrover

A musician is somebody who plays a musical instrument}’. So should the question be Are DJ turntables musical instruments?

acman

Felixdhc wrote: »

Two spoons can be considered a musical instrument with the right person holding them.

Ain't that the truth!

mu⋅si⋅cian
–noun
1.a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2.any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

BaZmO*

seannash wrote: »

now ill concede that people like qbert and the likes are using turntables in a musical way and to an extent playing them like an instrument but most of us on here arent into that sort of djing i imagine

Agreed.
How anyone can say that a turntablist isn't a musician I'll never understand. They create totally different sounds and music by manipulating existing sounds using physical, technical and musical skills. How is that not classed a musician?

brianc27 wrote: »

well yea id agree to an extent turntablists would be the closet a dj can come to being considered a musician, its a fine line though, i personally think of turntablism as a seperate entity, its a skill, an art even.

It's a musical skill so therefore they're musicians. It's not as if they're just pressing the "Loop" button on the sampler and standing back and letting the electronics do the work. There is some serious skill involved.

DaDumTish wrote: »

err, NO
playing someone elses music on a turntable , no matter how artistic
does NOT make you a musician - its makes you a glorified sound engineer


granted there are chaps who can "scratch" out various tones on a turntable
but its nothing you couldnt do with a good synth and a sampler

learn to play an instrument and come back to us .

if you cannot play an ACOUSTIC instrument (including voice)
you are not a musician

this means piano , guitar , drum, brass, stringed , whatever.

you need to be able to do it without electricity .
not electric guitar, synth, " turntable "


ACOUSTIC = MUSICIAN

all electric based musicians began on acoustic instruments
what do dj's begin on ?

That's just nonsense.

So you're saying that someone that bangs out a beat on a Bodhran is more of a "Musician" than some of the top Turntablists or Electronic Producers?

brianc27 wrote: »

bare in mind im not referring to anyone playing a proper live set of their own material incorperating independant elements (kick, bass, cymbals, synths, pads), blending them live together in some sort of arrangement to make new sounds.

Again, to use the example of a Turntablist. What if he puts down a single note tone, of his own creation, onto a piece of vinyl and then creates some music from manipulating that tone on a turntable? Is he a "Musician" then?

Dongasaurus

I would be of the opinion that turntablists and DJs are pretty different things. I think theres no debate there...

But I don't think making a loop and mixing one track into another counts as creating a brand new sound. Definate art and skill but no new music is being created (except from perhaps an overlapting baseline)