FWA and WiMax

zt-OctaviaN

Ok guys I know some of you are out there that can explain the difference?
Is there a difference between FWA and WiMax?
Is WiMax like a huge WiFi connection compared to the FWA which resembles a point to point type daisy chained network?

Im with Westnet and notice on their website that they do WiMax is this significantly quicker than what can be offered with FWA (which seems to be max 2Mb, Im a residential customer)

Thanks,
Nick.

smellslikeshoes

FWA stands for Fixed Wireless Access which basically just means a stationary wireless internet connection. Its a blanket term that describes many different types of technology. Any fixed wireless internet can be called FWA.

Wimax on the other hand is a specific technology that is used to provide Wireless internet access. A service using Wimax technology would still be considered FWA if the user has a fixed unit. Plenty of companies advertise their Wimax products seperate to their FWA to differentiate them because of the different technologies used.

(Wimax is also supposed to be able to turn water into wine:P)

bigpaddy2004

Wimax is better in urban areas where the signal bounces off the steel and concrete in NLOS non or near-line-of-site installations. This is really the key behind the Irish broadband and clearwire "broadband in a box " solutions working.

watty

Except Ripwave isn't WiMax. It's S-CDMA.

Due to the frequencies there is not any advantage to Mobile/Nomadic WiMax, pretty poor compared to FWA (outdoor radio on chimney etc).

For a user there won't be much if any difference between Fixed Wimax and non-Wimax FWA. For the operator there may be some cost advantage / capacity advantage on new masts or replacing very old FWA gear. Modern FWA gear may be WiMax capacity anyway.

FWA is 3.5GHz and above in Ireland. The Advantages of the OFDM in Wimax apply best at 700MHz (still used fro TV) and gradually have less value as you move to 2600MHz, a typical Nomadic or Mobile WiMax band. 2600MHz (2.6GHz) isn't available here as it's used for MMDS.

The signal bouncing off stuff aspect only applies for Mobile or Nomadic solutions, it's very little issue for roof-top Radio installs (all FWA), and certinally little value at 3.xGHz, 5.xGHz, 10.x GHz wireless.

LTE uses OFDM like WiMax and is better favoured by operators. USA Mobile Wimax due to spectrum used is a little poorer than 3G/HSDPA in penetration here, and about the same speed. However the US Mobile WiMax is about twice the performance of EVDO.

Unlike EVDO, EDGE, original Ripwave (s-CDMA), iBurst, IPW and 3G/HSDPA the WiMax is low latency (good pings). But most FWA systems are 2 to 3 better than HSDPA for ping.

So WiMax is better than HSDPA, but no real difference for users using modern FWA systems.

Magnet: Rory

watty wrote: »

Except Ripwave isn't WiMax. It's S-CDMA.

Due to the frequencies there is not any advantage to Mobile/Nomadic WiMax, pretty poor compared to FWA (outdoor radio on chimney etc).

For a user there won't be much if any difference between Fixed Wimax and non-Wimax FWA. For the operator there may be some cost advantage / capacity advantage on new masts or replacing very old FWA gear. Modern FWA gear may be WiMax capacity anyway.

FWA is 3.5GHz and above in Ireland. The Advantages of the OFDM in Wimax apply best at 700MHz (still used fro TV) and gradually have less value as you move to 2600MHz, a typical Nomadic or Mobile WiMax band. 2600MHz (2.6GHz) isn't available here as it's used for MMDS.

The signal bouncing off stuff aspect only applies for Mobile or Nomadic solutions, it's very little issue for roof-top Radio installs (all FWA), and certinally little value at 3.xGHz, 5.xGHz, 10.x GHz wireless.

LTE uses OFDM like WiMax and is better favoured by operators. USA Mobile Wimax due to spectrum used is a little poorer than 3G/HSDPA in penetration here, and about the same speed. However the US Mobile WiMax is about twice the performance of EVDO.

Unlike EVDO, EDGE, original Ripwave (s-CDMA), iBurst, IPW and 3G/HSDPA the WiMax is low latency (good pings). But most FWA systems are 2 to 3 better than HSDPA for ping.

So WiMax is better than HSDPA, but no real difference for users using modern FWA systems.

Is LTE the next step for mobile operators? If so when, what spectrum and who looks like the first to do it?

watty

LTE looks to be more popular than Mobile WiMax. Fixed Wimax is already doing well for FWA ISP type apps worldwide.
Several places will be trailing LTE shortly. NTT next month,

There is no spectrum allocated in Ireland. To get decent speed and capacity you need about 4 times to 8 times the spectrum a 3G/HSDPA operator might have, so simply switching 3G or GSM allocations won't work.
Also in terms of data users capacity per MHz, 3G/HSPDA has little advantage over EDGE2 for 900/1800 GSM.

There isn't even a plan yet for LTE spectrum in Ireland.

Magnet: Rory

With the analogue TV signal being turned off soon (year 2010 i think) will that open up more spectrums? (i heard there will be auctions for this)

rh555

Well I am on WiMAX and I can say it works absolutely great especially because I am quite some distance away from the Antenna. Pretty much have always full speed and downloads holding absolutely steady at my max bandwidth which is a 2Mbit or about250kbyte/s.

However, WIMAX is not suitable for gamers in my opinion allthough I dont really play any online games a ping of over 100 to the Dublin server eg. is just not good for games. That is because the signal bounces and reflects of buildings making the ping times longer.

Overall I think WiMax is absolutely great but then again it always depends on your provider too

Magnet: Rory

rh555 wrote: »

Well I am on WiMAX and I can say it works absolutely great especially because I am quite some distance away from the Antenna. Pretty much have always full speed and downloads holding absolutely steady at my max bandwidth which is a 2Mbit or about250kbyte/s.

However, WIMAX is not suitable for gamers in my opinion allthough I dont really play any online games a ping of over 100 to the Dublin server eg. is just not good for games. That is because the signal bounces and reflects of buildings making the ping times longer.

Overall I think WiMax is absolutely great but then again it always depends on your provider too

is that a business product? who is the provider?

rh555

Thats residential. Provider is fastcom.ie and they have both systems. The line of sight for ppl living mostly outside town or have a clear view to the mast and the new WiMax product for ppl without the line of sight.

They only provide a small area in the Northwest.

P.S. They also have a business product which costs more ofcourse

Magnet: Rory

rh555 wrote: »

Thats residential. Provider is fastcom.ie and they have both systems. The line of sight for ppl living mostly outside town or have a clear view to the mast and the new WiMax product for ppl without the line of sight.

They only provide a small area in the Northwest.

P.S. They also have a business product which costs more ofcourse

i cant find it on their site......is it new?

rh555

Its fairly new (1year or so), if u look at the bottom left of the site where it says Company news the first item says WiMAX now available on fastcom network. They dont mention WiMAx anywhere specifically besides that. Usually they just refer to the line of sight one bc I believe most ppl use that.
The monthly price to you is the same just instead getting your broadband through the line of sight one you will get it through WiMax. Even the antenna looks similar. They usually want ppl to use the line of sight device if possible bc as far as I know the WiMax costs more to the provider (sender/receiver are more expensive etc.)

Hope that helps.

P.S. I also dont know if Wimax works well in rural areas bc the signal cant bounce/reflect as well as it does in an urban area but it may just work as well.

Magnet: Rory

rh555 wrote: »

Its fairly new (1year or so), if u look at the bottom left of the site where it says Company news the first item says WiMAX now available on fastcom network. They dont mention WiMAx anywhere specifically besides that. Usually they just refer to the line of sight one bc I believe most ppl use that.
The monthly price to you is the same just instead getting your broadband through the line of sight one you will get it through WiMax. Even the antenna looks similar. They usually want ppl to use the line of sight device if possible bc as far as I know the WiMax costs more to the provider (sender/receiver are more expensive etc.)

Hope that helps.

P.S. I also dont know if Wimax works well in rural areas bc the signal cant bounce/reflect as well as it does in an urban area but it may just work as well.

any idea of pricing etc? im getting nothing from the site......

rh555

Do u live in the northwest?

http://www.fastcom.ie/products.php

Magnet: Rory

rh555 wrote: »

Do u live in the northwest?

http://www.fastcom.ie/products.php

no but id love to know more about the company.......24Mb wireless....for residential...thats amazing.....how much?

rh555

24Mbit? Who said anything about 24Mbit?

I gave u the link all u have to do click on the link that says home or business and u will get all the info u need

Magnet: Rory

rh555 wrote: »

24Mbit? Who said anything about 24Mbit?

I gave u the link all u have to do click on the link that says home or business and u will get all the info u need

Ahhhhh.....i must have got that from somewhere else...ah well, sorry bout that......was getting all excited bout nothing.

PogMoThoin

rh555 wrote: »

Well I am on WiMAX and I can say it works absolutely great especially because I am quite some distance away from the Antenna.

Thats a routing problem, WiMax has similar pings to Wi-fi and is perfect for gaming.

To answer the OP's question, there is no difference to the customer other than the fact that WiMax can get a signal where sometimes Wi-fi can't, it has a much bigger pattern, upto 20-22km.

rh555

All I know its over 100ms (about 120-140) to the dublin server from Sligo. If thats fast enough for online gaming then it's probably ok. As I said I don't really do online gaming.

I was just saying this because I read somewhere that people were complaining about 50ms ping and how bad online gaming was for them. Depends on the game too I guess.

ArseBurger

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Thats a routing problem

Ehhhh, no.

PogMoThoin

rh555 wrote: »

All I know its over 100ms (about 120-140) to the dublin server from Sligo. If thats fast enough for online gaming then it's probably ok. As I said I don't really do online gaming.

I was just saying this because I read somewhere that people were complaining about 50ms ping and how bad online gaming was for them. Depends on the game too I guess.

Don't trust the speedtest.net ping times, better to ping from command line,
open command prompt by typing "cmd" in the run box-> "ping www.boards.ie" or "www.heanet.ie" without quotes
paste results here

You can also run a traceroute to these by replacing ping with tracert, this will tell You the exact route from your pc to your traceroute destination (although some will be set to not respond to pings for security reasons), "tracert www.boards.ie" without quotes
paste results here

Another thing You can try is to ping Your ISP's DNS servers as this will be inside their network and will respond to pings.
paste results here

I install WiMax every day without seeing high pings, done properly its similar latency to Wi-fi and anyone seeing 100ms pings is certainly seeing congestion or routing problems elsewhere on the network

PogMoThoin

ArseBurger wrote: »

Ehhhh, no.

Do You have any other input into this or are you just trolling?

rh555

Pinging www.boards.ie [89.234.66.107] with 32 bytes o

Reply from 89.234.66.107: bytes=32 time=59ms TTL=60
Reply from 89.234.66.107: bytes=32 time=43ms TTL=60
Reply from 89.234.66.107: bytes=32 time=72ms TTL=60
Reply from 89.234.66.107: bytes=32 time=57ms TTL=60

Ping statistics for 89.234.66.107:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% los
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 43ms, Maximum = 72ms, Average = 57ms



Pinging samhain.heanet.ie [193.1.219.57] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 193.1.219.57: bytes=32 time=65ms TTL=58
Reply from 193.1.219.57: bytes=32 time=59ms TTL=58
Reply from 193.1.219.57: bytes=32 time=67ms TTL=58
Reply from 193.1.219.57: bytes=32 time=80ms TTL=58

Ping statistics for 193.1.219.57:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 59ms, Maximum = 80ms, Average = 67ms

Those are the results for boards.ie and heanet.ie

I guess the ping times also depend on where these 2 servers are located which is Dublin I presume but I am not sure.

P.S. How can the latency be the same as to Wi-fi? I assume u mean Wi-Fi at home or the hotspots which are within 100meters or less. I mean if my basestation is about 5miles away (kinda guessing) and the signal keeps bouncing off all kinds of buildings until it gets to me how can that have the same latency as WiFi which is almost next to you in comparison? Just wondering. I would think that wimax should have higher latency times just by design.

ArseBurger

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Do You have any other input into this or are you just trolling?

Not trolling at all. It's just that your comment is incorrect and vague.

Following on, WiMAX by the nature of the protocol and how OFDM works, is not particularly suited to gaming and applications that require sequential packet delivery. This is due to uplink slot allocation and small packet efficiencies in the uplink slot. All time and frequency division mechanisms are effected by this.


Having stated that - I'll just qualify that I'm a huge fan of WiMAX as a transit delivery solution both nomadic and mobile and I'm a proponent of WiMAX over LTE any day.

PogMoThoin

Ping doesn't really tell You much, those pings aren't that great but are nowhere near 100ms+ You said they were.

Can You ping your ISP's DNS server to compare or run a traceroute? I just want to see where the long hop is, I'm betting its not the WiMax.

rh555

Yeah I used the speedtest.net site to Dublin where I always get over 100ms but as you suggested I pinged boards.ie and haenet directly.

Tracing route to boards.ie [89.234.66.107]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 69 ms 44 ms 59 ms 88.151.80.193
2 38 ms 54 ms 75 ms s1-v9-so.fastcom.ie [83.245.74.5]
3 53 ms 54 ms 75 ms r2-v6-so.fastcom.ie [83.245.74.37]
4 58 ms 86 ms 76 ms inex1.fastcom.ie [88.151.80.178]
5 52 ms 57 ms 62 ms to-inex-dub-deg-gw.digiweb.ie [193.242.111.20]
6 67 ms 66 ms 93 ms ip-89-234-66-107.dedi.digiweb.ie [89.234.66.107]


Trace complete.

Tracing route to samhain.heanet.ie [193.1.219.57]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 59 ms 61 ms 55 ms 88.151.80.193
2 59 ms 55 ms 82 ms s1-v9-so.fastcom.ie [83.245.74.5]
3 62 ms 76 ms 59 ms r1-v8-so.fastcom.ie [83.245.74.1]
4 84 ms 70 ms 85 ms inex1.fastcom.ie [88.151.80.178]
5 73 ms 71 ms 68 ms te0-0-0-1-cr2-cwt.hea.net [193.242.111.16]
6 62 ms 58 ms 75 ms te5-1-blanch-sr1.services.hea.net [193.1.236.2]

7 49 ms 73 ms 71 ms samhain.heanet.ie [193.1.219.57]

Trace complete.

PogMoThoin

rh555 wrote: »

P.S. How can the latency be the same as to Wi-fi? I assume u mean Wi-Fi at home or the hotspots which are within 100meters or less. I mean if my basestation is about 5miles away (kinda guessing) and the signal keeps bouncing off all kinds of buildings until it gets to me how can that have the same latency as WiFi which is almost next to you in comparison? Just wondering. I would think that wimax should have higher latency times just by design.

Fixed Wireless providers use Wi-fi technology the same way they use WiMax.....Needs line of sight to access point,reciever on wall/roof, same setup, different technology. Same frequency as household wi-fi products.

rh555

gotcha. Yeah I had that first and ping times were about half of what I have now but connection was really bad and went down alot because I was too far away from the Mast so they switched me to WiMAx which is perfect but the ping times are not as good which I dont really care about.

ArseBurger

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Fixed Wireless providers use Wi-fi technology the same way they use WiMax.....Needs line of sight to access point,reciever on wall/roof, same setup, different technology. Same frequency as household wi-fi products.

What? Most FWA providers have spectrum allocated to them by the regulator and use kit like Alvarion, Cisco, Motorola Canopy, Cambridge, etc... for point to multipoint.

Not wifi. Unless you're talking about mom and pop outfits in less populated areas?

PogMoThoin

ArseBurger wrote: »

What? Most FWA providers have spectrum allocated to them by the regulator and use kit like Alvarion, Cisco, Motorola Canopy, Cambridge, etc... for point to multipoint.

Not wifi. Unless you're talking about mom and pop outfits in less populated areas?

Wrong, most use 2,4Ghz which anybody can use. Go through all providers in Ireland and see, there are FWA operators dotted all over this country using 2.4Ghz, at least 1 in each county.

ArseBurger

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Wrong, most use 2,4Ghz which anybody can use. Go through all providers in Ireland and see, there are FWA operators dotted all over this country using 2.4Ghz, at least 1 in each county.

FAIL

You may want to look at what FWA means from the regulatory definition...