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FWA and WiMax

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    So how do You define these providers? They don't exist just because by definition they're not using the 3.5Ghz+ spectrum. I work for one that has 1500 customers? Maybe not FWA, but they are Fixed Wireless providers, same thing


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    Well, there you go. Not FWA.

    If you drive a motorbike, do you call it a car?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭Chaz


    ArseBurger wrote: »
    Not trolling at all. It's just that your comment is incorrect and vague.

    Following on, WiMAX by the nature of the protocol and how OFDM works, is not particularly suited to gaming and applications that require sequential packet delivery. This is due to uplink slot allocation and small packet efficiencies in the uplink slot. All time and frequency division mechanisms are effected by this.


    Having stated that - I'll just qualify that I'm a huge fan of WiMAX as a transit delivery solution both nomadic and mobile and I'm a proponent of WiMAX over LTE any day.

    Arseburger > PogMoThoin in this case.

    To further complicate matters, WiMax allows for lots of tweaks which will almost certainly affect ping. Its a balancing act for a provider to look at spectrum effeciency, downlink / uplink rates and performance parameters which is then further complicated if running a TDD network which most operators do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭PogMoThoin


    ArseBurger wrote: »
    Well, there you go. Not FWA.

    If you drive a motorbike, do you call it a car?

    Well then this whole thread by definition contains wrong information. The OP originally asked about the difference between FWA and WiMax with Westnet, Westnet don't do FWA (by definition), they do Wi-fi (2.4Ghz).

    Here's post 2 of this very thread:
    FWA stands for Fixed Wireless Access which basically just means a stationary wireless internet connection. Its a blanket term that describes many different types of technology. Any fixed wireless internet can be called FWA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Rorser wrote: »
    no but id love to know more about the company.......24Mb wireless....for residential...thats amazing.....how much?

    I don't know, where you saw 24 mbit/s.

    There's a 2 mbit (24:1 contention) and 3 mbit (16:1 contention) packages.

    Now, these are fairly straight forward FWA packages and most FWA ISPs can deliver these.

    WiMAX is more expensive to rollout at the moment and still has child sicknesses. I know of issues with one of the manufacturers for FWA equipment, where their WiMAX not is up to par yet, so most providers move straight back to the older products, once they tried it. Too many quality issues yet to sort out. Other WiMAX products seem to work well. Essentially Fixed WiMAX is just the next generation of FWA non-Wimax products and will slowly replace the older solutions over the next years, increasing bandwidth a tad for the users and improving latency, but it is NOT revolutionary !!!

    Providers specificly advertising for it are just taken advantage of the hype around it, that's all :)

    /Martin


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Well then this whole thread by definition contains wrong information. The OP originally asked about the difference between FWA and WiMax with Westnet, Westnet don't do FWA (by definition), they do Wi-fi (2.4Ghz).

    Correction. Westnet does do 2.4 GHz, 5 Ghz and licensed spectrum, depending on the area etc.

    As for Arseburgers comments:
    - FWA is a generic term for all kinds of Fixed Wireless Access, be it in licensed spectrum or not.
    - Motorola Canopy is 5 GHz and I believe there is a 2.4 GHz version, so if you consider that FWA, you actually contradicted yourself.
    - Check the Comreg website for FWALA (Fixed Wireless Access Local Area) and you'll find out, that there's only 5 "channels" available in 3.5 GHz. Once these are allocated in an area, nobody else can get spectrum in the next 20-30 km's distance. FWA providers have to use unlicensed spectrum in a lot of cases, because Comreg doesn't give us more to work with.

    /Martin


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    Marlow wrote: »
    Correction. Westnet does do 2.4 GHz, 5 Ghz and licensed spectrum, depending on the area etc.

    As for Arseburgers comments:
    - FWA is a generic term for all kinds of Fixed Wireless Access, be it in licensed spectrum or not.
    - Motorola Canopy is 5 GHz and I believe there is a 2.4 GHz version, so if you consider that FWA, you actually contradicted yourself.

    Apologies, you are correct. I've used it in other markets where I've had different spectrum allocations.
    Marlow wrote: »
    - Check the Comreg website for FWALA (Fixed Wireless Access Local Area) and you'll find out, that there's only 5 "channels" available in 3.5 GHz. Once these are allocated in an area, nobody else can get spectrum in the next 20-30 km's distance.

    Eh, you can have as many channels as you decide to pick within your own spectrum allocation...

    Now, if you're talking about bands - that's a different conversation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    PogMoThoin wrote: »
    Well then this whole thread by definition contains wrong information.

    Correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    Marlow wrote: »

    WiMAX is more expensive to rollout at the moment

    WiMAX is less expensive to roll out that the technologies that it is 'in competition' with. i.e. LTE, 3G, HSDPA, EDGE. And, some would argue, GSM.


  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭zt-OctaviaN


    Wow thanks for the info guys!
    Well I was hoping that Wimax might be the answer to "can I get DSL speeds and pricing over FWA or Wimax" :( probably not then...

    btw im getting 16ms pings to boards.ie :) and FWA is good for gaming I can vouch for that!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    ArseBurger wrote: »
    Eh, you can have as many channels as you decide to pick within your own spectrum allocation...

    Now, if you're talking about bands - that's a different conversation.

    Correct, but nobody else is allowed in your frequency allocation and thus only 5 providers car co-exist in 3.5 GHz within the same area. There is however a lot more providers out there.

    The recent 3.6 GHz spectrum, that became available, was withdrawn again by Comreg, so still no bettering.

    /Martin


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    ArseBurger wrote: »
    WiMAX is less expensive to roll out that the technologies that it is 'in competition' with. i.e. LTE, 3G, HSDPA, EDGE. And, some would argue, GSM.

    A nonsense comparison.

    Fixed Wimax is in competition with other FWA technologies. It's better and cheaper than some and worse and more expensive than others.

    Mobile WiMax isn't in competition at all with 3G/HSDPA, GSM/EDGE as there are no suitable phones / mobile Gadgets and mostly no suitable spectrum. The Mobile Wimax in modem USA (Sprint) has non-Wimax Modem and the Moscow Mobile Wimax handset has to roam to GSM.

    Mobile Wimax is possibly in competition with LTE, not existing Mobile Operator Infrastructure.

    Existing Fixed Wireless Broadband operators use Fixed WiMax where appropriate.

    It's not an iMac that needs a fan club. It's just one alternative OFDM technology available for VERY few frequency bands compared with other technologies.

    For the next few years GSM/3G will be overwhelming dominant on phone handsets and EDGE/HSDPA overwhelmingly dominant on high end Smart Phones used as Internet Gadgets and small portable Gadgets such as Archos5g, Netbooks etc. with built in Modems.

    The big use of Mobile tech in Ireland for fixed use is a local issue due to lack of real Broadband and very high line rental. Other countries the EDGE/3G is more important for Mobile / Roaming use.

    Mobile WiMax will be useless for roaming for years, and if most Mobile operators go for LTE, then Mobile Wimax is doomed. As it is the performance of Mobile WiMax is very poor compared to Fixed WiMax and indeed no better than existing Mobile Technologies available on more bands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    watty wrote: »
    A nonsense comparison.

    Not in my opinion.
    watty wrote: »

    Fixed Wimax is in competition with other FWA technologies. It's better and cheaper than some and worse and more expensive than others.

    Fixed WiMAX, yes - which is where some focus themselves with the technology. Mainly 16d however.
    watty wrote: »
    Mobile WiMax isn't in competition at all with 3G/HSDPA, GSM/EDGE as there are no suitable phones / mobile Gadgets and mostly no suitable spectrum.

    Not really true. There is plenty of investment into handsets and devices. It's more important to focus on devices than handsets, per se - as WiMAX is a data technology with potential voice applications rather than a voice technology with data applications.

    There is suitable spectrum. 700 Mhz, 2.5Ghz, 3.5Ghz and 3.7Ghz - generally.

    Naysayers used to roll out similar cock and bull arguments when GSM was being introduced.
    watty wrote: »
    Mobile Wimax is possibly in competition with LTE, not existing Mobile Operator Infrastructure.

    I don't agree that it isn't. And neither do most mobile operators. Hence the focus on LTE.
    watty wrote: »
    It's not an iMac that needs a fan club. It's just one alternative OFDM technology

    Correct.
    watty wrote: »
    available for VERY few frequency bands compared with other technologies.

    Incorrect. It's available for any frequency that's allocated to it.
    watty wrote: »
    For the next few years GSM/3G will be overwhelming dominant on phone handsets and EDGE/HSDPA overwhelmingly dominant on high end Smart Phones used as Internet Gadgets and small portable Gadgets such as Archos5g, Netbooks etc. with built in Modems.


    That'd be phones you're talking about there. Not data devices.

    Most new laptops will have built in WiMAX within a year. Look at how Intel made WiFi possible in the early 2000's...
    watty wrote: »

    The big use of Mobile tech in Ireland for fixed use is a local issue due to lack of real Broadband and very high line rental.

    Predomininantly the 'lack' of 'real' broadband (whatever that really means) issue is due to the regulator being in the pockets of the largest telcos. The last point to point frequency consultation showed that blatently. The cost for operators to implement broadband is due to high backhaul, mainly, which is controlled by one or two telcos - who screw everybody to the wall on cost.
    watty wrote: »
    Other countries the EDGE/3G is more important for Mobile / Roaming use.

    Explain - this comment doesn't really make sense.
    watty wrote: »

    Mobile WiMax will be useless for roaming for years

    Not true. Roaming is a piece of piss to implement. Revenue will lead this.
    watty wrote: »

    and if most Mobile operators go for LTE,

    No if about it. They have already invested heavily in existing vendor infrastructure and LTE is the natural progression.
    watty wrote: »
    then Mobile Wimax is doomed.


    LTE and WiMAX will eventually merge. There is too much global investment in both technologies to reproduce a Betmax/VHS win/fail. On paper they're pretty much the same. However, WiMAX, currently, has a couple of years advantage on LTE.
    watty wrote: »
    As it is the performance of Mobile WiMax is very poor compared to Fixed WiMax


    Same with any fixed versus mobile technology. Pretty much a moot comment.
    watty wrote: »

    and indeed no better than existing Mobile Technologies

    Depends whether you're talking about voice or data mobile there.
    watty wrote: »
    available on more bands.

    Not true, see above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Roaming to different countries presumes same band or a multiband modem. That's hardly possible with Mobile WiMax as in many countries any allocation is either too small or too high a frequency or non-existent.

    In most countries 3.5GHz/3.6GHz is used for Fixed Wireless. Pretty useless band for mobile use.

    700MHz is only available in the USA at present and they have decided of 3G/LTE route for that band.

    2.1GHz is 3G in Europe.
    2.3GHz is in use already, though Comreg has allowed a test
    2.6GHz is about the only Europe Mobile WiMax band and not available yet in many countries. Not available in Ireland due to MMDS.

    Due to lack of infrasturcture EDGE/3G for Data is about 80% ++ used for Fixed Internet access in Ireland. In other countries EDGE/3G/HSDPA is mostly used for Mobile/Ronaming use.

    There is ONE Mobile WiMax handset, a few PC Modems and one dual 3G/WiMax mobile. Virtually all are Operator/Country specific.

    As well as USB, PCMCIA, ExpressCard, MiniPCI, and other laptop/PC formats there are pocket WiFi/Ethernet routers and DATA GADGETS with EDGE/3G/HSDPA.

    I'd have beleived you two years ago re WiMax built into laptops & Gadgets (apart from phones), but mostly it isn't happening and looks less likely. You'll get WiFi/BT/EDGE/3G/HSDPA built in on many netbooks/laptops. Mobile WiMax is likely now to be only niche product for two operators Sprint/Clear in USA and the Summa Telecom in Moscow.

    Many EDGE/3G/HSDPA modems support 5 bands. As do many smart phones, allowing almost worldwide use. I'd have believed it was coming 4 years ago, but even the largest network (Sprint/Clear) is depending on the Intel/Motorola/Google money. They'll reband to another band unless you sign up for about 1M modems.

    A few years ago for Data the competition was IPW (taken over by Nextwave for TDTV), Kyocera iBurst, Flarion Flash-OFDM (taken over by Qualcomm) and Mobile WiMax. GSM has progressed from GPRS to EDGE and EDGE2, 3G to HSDPA, HSUPA and HSPA+, CDMA-1 has stalled on EVDOrevA, Rev b is dead due to LTE.
    The problem that all of these have had in the past is overselling, quoting the peak sector speed as if this is a user speed and neglecting to mention that speed is as little as 1/20th on some at cell edge and that for real broadband speeds and user loads you need 20MHz+ rather than the 1.25MHz, 4MHz or 5MHz that operators really have.

    Then for a dense urban network you need x3 or x 6 the spectrum to avoid interference. Mobile WiMax only solves Multipath. It doesn't solve issues of Spectrum/ power/speed/capacity/range magically. Some things it doesn't even do as well as EDGE or HSDPA, and certainly worse in all cases than Flash-OFDM. LTE on the downlink is also OFDM.

    Mobile Wimax is never going to deliver Broadband. The CPE (user Modem) hasn't enough power and the allocations don't have enough spectrum.

    Real broadband needs copper, coax, fibre or controlled contention FIXED wireless. At a pinch a Nomadic Wireless system with much higher power than MobileWimax/EDGE/HSDPA and option for a fixed aerial can do Broadband.

    My forecast for 2009 /2010 is that Mobile WiMax will be a "ghetto" system run by Niche operators that can't get GSM/EDGE/3G/HSDPA or LTE licences and used only by those that can't get real broadband and not too worried about a real mobile/roaming system for all cities and most countries.

    It's been over hyped. Big time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭ArseBurger


    watty wrote: »
    Roaming to different countries presumes same band or a multiband modem. That's hardly possible with Mobile WiMax as in many countries any allocation is either too small or too high a frequency or non-existent.

    Same argument used for GSM. You have multi-band GSM devices out there now don't you?

    watty wrote: »

    In most countries 3.5GHz/3.6GHz is used for Fixed Wireless. Pretty useless band for mobile use.

    Actually no, higher frequencies allow for better mobile handover and give higher throughput rates dependent upon QAM level obviously.
    watty wrote: »

    700MHz is only available in the USA at present and they have decided of 3G/LTE route for that band.


    Not true. Look at Asia, Pacific, Australia, even Ireland... ;)
    watty wrote: »

    2.1GHz is 3G in Europe.
    2.3GHz is in use already, though Comreg has allowed a test
    2.6GHz is about the only Europe Mobile WiMax band and not available yet in many countries. Not available in Ireland due to MMDS.


    The 'two bands' actually **** up WiMAX IMHO - although they allow for a greater distribution of cells and thus reduce overall network cost (approx. by a factor of 2 to 'three band').
    watty wrote: »

    Due to lack of infrasturcture EDGE/3G for Data is about 80% ++ used for Fixed Internet access in Ireland. In other countries EDGE/3G/HSDPA is mostly used for Mobile/Ronaming use.

    No idea where you get the idea that EGDE/3G has 80% fixed usage in IE - but there ye go.
    watty wrote: »

    There is ONE Mobile WiMax handset, a few PC Modems and one dual 3G/WiMax mobile. Virtually all are Operator/Country specific.

    Similar argument to GSM initially. At the start travellers had multiple handsets for different markets. I had three for travelling.
    watty wrote: »

    As well as USB, PCMCIA, ExpressCard, MiniPCI, and other laptop/PC formats there are pocket WiFi/Ethernet routers and DATA GADGETS with EDGE/3G/HSDPA.

    I'd have beleived you two years ago re WiMax built into laptops & Gadgets (apart from phones), but mostly it isn't happening and looks less likely. You'll get WiFi/BT/EDGE/3G/HSDPA built in on many netbooks/laptops. Mobile WiMax is likely now to be only niche product for two operators Sprint/Clear in USA and the Summa Telecom in Moscow.


    Don't agree. Intel will push WiMAX enabled chipsets with their mobile chipset package.
    watty wrote: »

    Many EDGE/3G/HSDPA modems support 5 bands. As do many smart phones, allowing almost worldwide use. I'd have believed it was coming 4 years ago, but even the largest network (Sprint/Clear) is depending on the Intel/Motorola/Google money. They'll reband to another band unless you sign up for about 1M modems.


    If you read into any of the WiMAX operators and vendors, you will see that they have planned their business around producing full coverage and market penetration by around 2012. They're just building their networks now. As Three did over the first few year before 'real' launch.
    watty wrote: »

    A few years ago for Data the competition was IPW (taken over by Nextwave for TDTV), Kyocera iBurst, Flarion Flash-OFDM (taken over by Qualcomm) and Mobile WiMax.


    IPW vs WiMAX was Beta vs VHS - WiMAX won.
    watty wrote: »

    GSM has progressed from GPRS to EDGE and EDGE2, 3G to HSDPA, HSUPA and HSPA+, CDMA-1 has stalled on EVDOrevA, Rev b is dead due to LTE.
    The problem that all of these have had in the past is overselling, quoting the peak sector speed as if this is a user speed and neglecting to mention that speed is as little as 1/20th on some at cell edge and that for real broadband speeds and user loads you need 20MHz+ rather than the 1.25MHz, 4MHz or 5MHz that operators really have.


    Fundamental misunderstanding of the capabilities of the technologies here. They do what they're designed to do. Technically, they're 'broadband' (hate using the term) - practically they do not deliver what the press, media, marketing, etc... present as 'broadband'.
    watty wrote: »

    Then for a dense urban network you need x3 or x 6 the spectrum to avoid interference. Mobile WiMax only solves Multipath. It doesn't solve issues of Spectrum/ power/speed/capacity/range magically. Some things it doesn't even do as well as EDGE or HSDPA, and certainly worse in all cases than Flash-OFDM. LTE on the downlink is also OFDM.


    Spectrum efficiencies and channel planning are fundamentally RF problems. The issue to date is that very few RF people can make the logical leap to RF for data and design to their training - i.e. GSM. Ne'er the twain shall meet...
    watty wrote: »

    Mobile Wimax is never going to deliver Broadband.


    Mobile anything is never going to deliver 'broadband' as 'broadband' is 'presented'. It will deliver mobile data at an approrpiate throughput to the technology used.
    watty wrote: »
    The CPE (user Modem) hasn't enough power and the allocations don't have enough spectrum.

    Not true. Power is defined by the regulator. Spectrum is always a factor for any mobile technology. The spectrum allocated in 3.5 and 3.7 in Ireland does the job.
    watty wrote: »

    Real broadband needs copper, coax, fibre or controlled contention FIXED wireless. At a pinch a Nomadic Wireless system with much higher power than MobileWimax/EDGE/HSDPA and option for a fixed aerial can do Broadband.

    Agreed.

    However, WiMAX isn't what people think of as broadband. Similarly, other mobile data technologies.
    watty wrote: »

    My forecast for 2009 /2010 is that Mobile WiMax will be a "ghetto" system run by Niche operators that can't get GSM/EDGE/3G/HSDPA or LTE licences and used only by those that can't get real broadband and not too worried about a real mobile/roaming system for all cities and most countries.


    My forecast is that over the coming four years WiMAX may merge with LTE - both taking the other's good 'bits' and dropping the bad 'bits'. Also, that VoIP will become more prevalent and handsets will become data devices with voice rather than voice devices with data.

    WiMAX may win out, however, as the backoffice and CSN is less complicated and more flexible. Handover remains an issue - however, a vendor rather than a standards based issue...
    watty wrote: »

    It's been over hyped. Big time.

    It's been misunderstood and misrepresented. Big time.

    Telco is scared of WiMAX as they are too heavily invested in the progression of GPRS/EDGE/3G/HSDPA/CAMEL/LTE/yadda yadda yadda. WiMAX is a lower cost implementation. Also, the need for top heavy organisations with massive transmission, RF, OAM, departments overpaying under qualified jumped up pencil jockies who call themselves Engineers who can't Engineer their way out of a paper bag without raising a trouble ticket to the vendor.

    "Where's my support on that?" - Dear Lord!


    Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not all gun-ho WiMAX FOR EVAH. It's just misunderstood and misrepresented. Someone needs to set things straight.


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