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Rant: Gay, but don't fancy gay guys!
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UU i appreciate your point of view and don't mean to offend you. But I don't understand why everybody has such a problem with stereotypes. The reality is that a lot of them are very true. That's why they exist. They didn't come out of nowhere. I think everyone needs to stop viewing stereotyping as politically incorrect. I never said that ALL straight-acting gay men are kind, honest, brave, selfless and loyal... and that ALL effeminate gay men have binary opposite characteristics. Of course they don't. I know straight acting gays that have poor personalities and effeminate gays that are very honest, loyal and decent. But whether it's politically correct to say it or not, selfish, materialistic, vain and bitchy traits are found a lot more in lads that are more "gay" (for lack of a better word) than in lads that are less "gay".
Am I generalising? Yes. In doing so mate i'm not boxing EVERYONE i'm talking about into one set behavioural pattern... just drawing obvious links between personalities, tendencies and characteristics. Simple as, my amigo :cool:.0 -
duffster808 wrote: »UU i appreciate your point of view and don't mean to offend you. But I don't understand why everybody has such a problem with stereotypes. The reality is that a lot of them are very true. That's why they exist. They didn't come out of nowhere. I think everyone needs to stop viewing stereotyping as politically incorrect. I never said that ALL straight-acting gay men are kind, honest, brave, selfless and loyal... and that ALL effeminate gay men have binary opposite characteristics. Of course they don't. I know straight acting gays that have poor personalities and effeminate gays that are very honest, loyal and decent. But whether it's politically correct to say it or not, selfish, materialistic, vain and bitchy traits are found a lot more in lads that are more "gay" (for lack of a better word) than in lads that are less "gay".
Am I generalising? Yes. In doing so mate i'm not boxing EVERYONE i'm talking about into one set behavioural pattern... just drawing obvious links between personalities, tendencies and characteristics. Simple as, my amigo :cool:.
Stereotypes are a problem because they enforce the idea that if you X you have to act a certain way. OF course there's always some truth in a stereotype but generally they never apply to the majority but rather the most noticeable minority of a group of people. I've met a lot of gay/bi people and I've yet to meet a single person who completely fitted the stereotype. Some had attributes like it, most didn't resemble it at all.
I should add you're lumping a lot of things together in your post, Diva, drama queen, effeminate, camp, fashion concious and the like. These are all very different things. In general women don't behave like Divas and bitchy drama queens, so that's not an effeminate trait. Femininity would more relate to the physical structure and/or appearance of a person. This again is very different to being camp. I don't find femininity in a male attractive at all at all, while campness simply isn't a factor. Again being camp does not make you a bitchy drama queen either.
Final point, about the rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces. When in a relationship I behave like your average person does, I hold hands walking down the street I kiss my partner publically. To some this behaviour is rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces, to me its acting normal. Sometimes just being who you are is going to offend other people.0 -
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Final point, about the rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces. When in a relationship I behave like your average person does, I hold hands walking down the street I kiss my partner publically. To some this behaviour is rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces, to me its acting normal. Sometimes just being who you are is going to offend other people.
Well done you .Yes you're right to do what the average person does ,hold hands kiss ect ect..
Gay guys who as you said have a problem with "rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces" ect have a problem ,,WITH THEMSELVES.In other words its a type of selfloathing and not fully accepting themselves as being gay.0 -
oisindoyle wrote: »Well done you .Yes you're right to do what the average person does ,hold hands kiss ect ect..
Gay guys who as you said have a problem with "rubbing homosexuality in peoples faces" ect have a problem ,,WITH THEMSELVES.In other words its a type of selfloathing and not fully accepting themselves as being gay.
b0ll0x.
with this "I know you are but what am I" type argument, no gay person can have a remotely conservative opinion.
its ok for other gay/bisexual people to not feel like you do, and still "accept themselves". that is ridiculously patronising.0 -
Not liking redheads is not discrimination (in the negative sense of the word) and is certainly not bigotted. It is a preference. Not being attracted to someone (i.e. "not liking them") is a world away from making "derogatory references" about them or being intolerant of them.Unregistered wrote: »bit off point but -
Not liking redheads IS discrimination. Derogatory references to people with red hair are a form of bigotry.
In case you do not understand....
"A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset"....courtesy of google.
I thank you.
And I ain't no ginger either.0 -
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Care to engage in a civil more cohesive manner,without the need to use foul language?b0ll0x.
with this "I know you are but what am I" type argument, no gay person can have a remotely conservative opinion.
its ok for other gay/bisexual people to not feel like you do, and still "accept themselves". that is ridiculously patronising.0 -
hot2def you are completely right. That is a load of bollox. Wtf is he on about? I have self-loathing issues? He is so far up his own ass. This is about my generalisin post, which was mega misinterpreted and takin out of context.b0ll0x.
with this "I know you are but what am I" type argument, no gay person can have a remotely conservative opinion.
its ok for other gay/bisexual people to not feel like you do, and still "accept themselves". that is ridiculously patronising.
And the only reason I don't go around holdin hands and kissin and tellin a fella I love him in public is because i live in Dublin, in the real world and know for a fact that you're bound to f***in get hopped on or beat or knifed my some ignorant scumbag if you do that. Not because i have deep psychological "self-loathing issues". Oisin mate, what planet are you livin on? lol I mean, knackers don't care if you've accepted your true inner sexuality or not haha they will just start on you regardless if you go around like that with a lad, i'm not sayin that's how things should be but i'm smart enough to know that that's how they are... and i'm not gonna put meself (or my partner) in danger to prove a point.0 -
And another thing Oisin that I don't wanna let go... The decision to not display a relationship in public is a choice t be made by a couple. It is totally up to them, so I don't know where you're gettin off judgin people and assuming they have inner self-loathing issues if they choose not to display affection in public. The are loads of logical and practical reasons not to... one or both may not be out, one or both may not be comfortable and it is definitely not physically safe to do it.
When I talk about rubbing that fact that you're gay in someone's face i'm talking about lads that think that the fact that they're gay is something that's very important for people to know... I'll do what I want provided it's safe, honest and i'm not hurting anyone... but i would never go out of my way to let people know I'm gay.
I have nothing against people who show gay affection in public, but it's a very naive, dangerous and risky thing to do. And I would still love my partner the same whether I do it or not... so why put the two of us in danger?0 -
Your generalisations post suggested that you had a problem with other LGB people showing public signs of affection and/or sexuality. You can't complain about being misinterpreted If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about others.
I to live in Dublin, its far from certain that you will get hopped on for holding hands with another guy. You seem to thing that the only reason two guys would do this is to prove a point, (an accusation I've heard often) but nothing could be further from the truth. The absolute vast majority of people will be oblivious to two guys walking around Dublin hand in hand. The few that have a problem may give you a dirty look or mutter a crude comment but why should that stop you. Saying its dangerous is just a cop out. I think its a sad thing when I met proud, determined and intelligent people too afraid to live their life freely and openly.
Btw there's a way of behaving here. You don't call a post a load of bollix and you don't tell a user he has his head in his ass.0 -
Couples hold hands and kiss each other hello, goodbuy and 'just because' all the time. I've never felt the need to be any different with my boyfriend and, I'm pleased to say, I don't think I've ever gotten anything more offensive than a curious glance from passers by in Dublin. Even that's fairly rare tbh. Most people don't seem to give a ****.
And even if that were to happen, I'd prefer to put up with the occasional muppet saying something nasty than to live in fear of showing affection.0 -
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Your generalisations post suggested that you had a problem with other LGB people showing public signs of affection and/or sexuality. You can't complain about being misinterpreted If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about others.
I to live in Dublin, its far from certain that you will get hopped on for holding hands with another guy. You seem to thing that the only reason two guys would do this is to prove a point, (an accusation I've heard often) but nothing could be further from the truth. The absolute vast majority of people will be oblivious to two guys walking around Dublin hand in hand. The few that have a problem may give you a dirty look or mutter a crude comment but why should that stop you. Saying its dangerous is just a cop out. I think its a sad thing when I met proud, determined and intelligent people too afraid to live their life freely and openly.
Btw there's a way of behaving here. You don't call a post a load of bollix and you don't tell a user he has his head in his ass.
Well then what's he at sayin i have self loathing issues. if you're gonna say that that u gotta be prepared t take somethin back.
I never once directly referred to any problem with affection in my post. That was inferred by whoever quoted me.
You all seem very sheltered if you think that about dublin. It wouldn't happen every day but it'd happen. Have you ever gotten a nitelink for f**K sake? It's a dangerous thing to do to hold hands and kiss a guy out in the open at 3am in dublin city.. and if you think it's not then mate you're just naive. I don't give a f**k if you do it or not... good luck to ya. But how dare you get up on some sheltered poncy high horse and criticise other people who don't do it? Mate that is well out of order.0 -
duffster808 wrote: »You all seem very sheltered if you think that about dublin. It wouldn't happen every day but it'd happen. Have you ever gotten a nitelink for f**K sake? It's a dangerous thing to do to hold hands and kiss a guy out in the open at 3am in dublin city..
I like to play that one by ear tbh. There's always going to be times when you'd be better off not even making eye contact with the random drunkin scumbag walking towards you, never mind letting him see you show affection to anyone (be it girlfriend or boyfriend) but the 3am / nightlink home on a Friday night scenario is a bit selective. I don't know anyone who'd actively choose to be out and about and interacting with people on the street at those times, gay or straight.0 -
duffster808 wrote: »Oisin mate, what planet are you livin on? lol I mean, knackers don't care if you've accepted your true inner sexuality or not haha they will just start on you regardless if you go around like that with a lad, i'm not sayin that's how things should be but i'm smart enough to know that that's how they are... and i'm not gonna put meself (or my partner) in danger to prove a point.
Have to agree here, often I will kiss a guy in public but you always need to be cautious, if the situation seems dangerous or there are scummers aplenty then best just wait until later. I'm not a huge fan of wearing the face off people in public anyway. straight people look a bit absurd also.
Also this thread started as a not fancying gay guys, well I do fancy gay guys but have to admit I am more attracted to guys who have masculine qualities but not always. A great sense of humour goes a long way and I sure have been with lots of effeminate guys who were great. It's all just a preference thing, I try not to waste time falling for straight guys though it's always annoying.0 -
Well said.I agree with everything you say.Your generalisations post suggested that you had a problem with other LGB people showing public signs of affection and/or sexuality. You can't complain about being misinterpreted If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about others.
I to live in Dublin, its far from certain that you will get hopped on for holding hands with another guy. You seem to thing that the only reason two guys would do this is to prove a point, (an accusation I've heard often) but nothing could be further from the truth. The absolute vast majority of people will be oblivious to two guys walking around Dublin hand in hand. The few that have a problem may give you a dirty look or mutter a crude comment but why should that stop you. Saying its dangerous is just a cop out. I think its a sad thing when I met proud, determined and intelligent people too afraid to live their life freely and openly.
Btw there's a way of behaving here. You don't call a post a load of bollix and you don't tell a user he has his head in his ass.0 -
If nothin has ever happened to you then you're just lucky. The reality is that it is dangerous. You say my scenario is selective, but by your logic mate that shouldn't matter.
I know a lad who got stabbed for being gay, not even kissin a lad in public... just cause a bunch of knackers heard that he was gay. Two other lads I know got there heads kicked in for holdin hands in public, and that was in a suburb not even city centre. It even happened to me before, so lads shut up about stuff that you don't know what you're talkin about. It could hit a sensitive spot with some people... and your experience is very narrow.
I dunno where you hold hands mate but it must be a very good area. And like I said before, if you have to be more selective about the time and place than straight people then you are just like people who don't do it at all, cause it's for the same reason -fear, so stop being so hipocritical.0 -
have to agree, we went bit of the topic here. my earlier posts were related to the OP so check them out but all this ****e bout diss'n on people who dont show affection in public really got me wound up.Have to agree here, often I will kiss a guy in public but you always need to be cautious, if the situation seems dangerous or there are scummers aplenty then best just wait until later. I'm not a huge fan of wearing the face off people in public anyway. straight people look a bit absurd also.
Also this thread started as a not fancying gay guys, well I do fancy gay guys but have to admit I am more attracted to guys who have masculine qualities but not always. A great sense of humour goes a long way and I sure have been with lots of effeminate guys who were great. It's all just a preference thing, I try not to waste time falling for straight guys though it's always annoying.0 -
oisindoyle wrote: »Care to engage in a civil more cohesive manner,without the need to use foul language?
no, the word conveyed what I was going for, thank you.
I appreciate that coversation should be civil, but I don't think accusing other people of having self-loathing issues because they don't see life like you do is particularly civil.
I don't feel like being at the recieving end of attention fron strangers in the street, good or bad. So I am not going to kiss my girlfriend. Its nothing to do with self loathing.
I am sick to the back teeth of this implication that you some how owe it to the "community" to be out in public, and that you are letting the side down if you ever suggest that tact, caution or compromise is a good idea.0 -
It's not exactly the fast track to acceptance and equal rights though, is it?I am sick to the back teeth of this implication that you some how owe it to the "community" to be out in public, and that you are letting the side down if you ever suggest that tact, caution or compromise is a good idea.
Some people just don't dig public displays of affection. Fine. No problem. I know plenty of straight people who aren't bothered with it either.
But you shouldn't let fear make those decisions for you. That's just no way to live, imo.
When you're talking about 3am on Friday night in Dublin city centre, I'd be fairly selective about anything I do tbh. That's just common sense, nothing to do with being gay.duffster808 wrote:if you have to be more selective about the time and place than straight people then you are just like people who don't do it at all, cause it's for the same reason -fear, so stop being so hipocritical.
But in and around the city on a normal day? I'll be damned if I'm going to let the slight possibility that someone somewhere might be a narrow-minded bigot stop me from doing what every normal person does with their loved one.0 -
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duffster808 wrote: »You all seem very sheltered if you think that about dublin. It wouldn't happen every day but it'd happen. Have you ever gotten a nitelink for f**K sake? It's a dangerous thing to do to hold hands and kiss a guy out in the open at 3am in dublin city.. and if you think it's not then mate you're just naive. I don't give a f**k if you do it or not... good luck to ya. But how dare you get up on some sheltered poncy high horse and criticise other people who don't do it? Mate that is well out of order.
No body criticised anyone for not showing signs of affection in public. For some people it simply isn't something they are interested in doing. I said it was sad that people would let fear stop them being free and open, and it is saddening. Of course I know the dangers I've been out for 5 years now and there's been times when I've received some very strong negative reactions to holding hands/kissing publicly. But if I stop living my life the way I want, that will do more damage to me then any snear or nasty comment.I like to play that one by ear tbh. There's always going to be times when you'd be better off not even making eye contact with the random drunkin scumbag walking towards you, never mind letting him see you show affection to anyone (be it girlfriend or boyfriend) but the 3am / nightlink home on a Friday night scenario is a bit selective. I don't know anyone who'd actively choose to be out and about and interacting with people on the street at those times, gay or straight.duffster808 wrote: »I dunno where you hold hands mate but it must be a very good area. And like I said before, if you have to be more selective about the time and place than straight people then you are just like people who don't do it at all, cause it's for the same reason -fear, so stop being so hipocritical.
I'm not going to walk into the local skin head pub and start making out in front of the head Nazi. The problem is when you allow irrational fear stop you. You shouldn't let the idea that its not a great idea to score while surrounded by drunks on a bus at night stop you holding hands while walking to shops. Like anything you have to be sensible about what the real risks are.
Wrt the examples you gave of people being attacked, I could match them easily. A guy I went to school with was attacked and cut up by a gang of skin heads for being black in the wrong place. Should he live in constant fear of showing his skin colour around town? Go back a few years it wouldn't be that shocking to hear of someone getting beaten for being english/ from the country in certain parts of Dublin, what are these people to do? You're not talking to someone whose experience of Dublin is narrow, I was born and raised in the inner city and I'm far more "street smart" then the average person.
hot2def: The dutty to the community. Meh. Hands up who thinks theres an actual LGBT community in Ireland.0 -
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I'm single now, but when i used to be with my bf we did nothing in public. And mate we were very happy. Didn't bother us one bit. We're both street smart and both have experiences beyond your bubble-boy ones... so yeah, with good reason it was out of fear and feeling uneasy.But in and around the city on a normal day? I'll be damned if I'm going to let the slight possibility that someone somewhere might be a narrow-minded bigot stop me from doing what every normal person does with their loved one.
You haven't experienced what we did mate, so get the **** of your moral high horse and f**k the idea of you bein some kind of martyr. You're no better or braver or defiant than people that do nothing in public.. infact I think that you're poncy, innocent, naive and sheltered. So do what you want, live your life and see where it gets you... but how dare you judge me? or look down on my lifestyle choices?... which are built around intelligence and rounded experience. I've no beef with you doin that in public, so get off my back cause I don't do it. I mean seriously f**k off!0 -
No body criticised anyone for not showing signs of affection in public.
ok, yeah.. he's takin the piss.
All i've heard is about how people that don't do it have "self-loathing issues".. and how all they're doing is living their life in fear.. and how it's sad and they SHOULDN'T do it. It's very preaching.. "you shouldn't live your life like that" "you should show affection in public because you are just feeding fear if you don't" "you shouldn't let scumbags stop you"
shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't
that is criticism. telling me that i should choose to live differently. telling me that my life is lesser.. a life lived in fear if i don't live like you.
What he just said has got to be the most stupid thing said in this forum.. i'm not even goin to sugar-coat it. that was STUPID. if you are gonna say that nobody has at all being criticised for not showing affection in public than you need t check your definition of criticism. this is a textbook example of criticism.0 -
I'm seriously confused. What has Goodshape written to get you so mad? I can't see where he's judged you or looked down on you. He's just written his opinion based on his own experience, and you've gone off on one. Take a chill pill.duffster808 wrote: »I'm single now, but when i used to be with my bf we did nothing in public. And mate we were very happy. Didn't bother us one bit. We're both street smart and both have experiences beyond your bubble-boy ones... so yeah, with good reason it was out of fear and feeling uneasy.
You haven't experienced what we did mate, so get the **** of your moral high horse and f**k the idea of you bein some kind of martyr. You're no better or braver or defiant than people that do nothing in public.. infact I think that you're poncy, innocent, naive and sheltered. So do what you want, live your life and see where it gets you... but how dare you judge me? or look down on my lifestyle choices?... which are built around intelligence and rounded experience. I've no beef with you doin that in public, so get off my back cause I don't do it. I mean seriously f**k off!0 -
duffster808 wrote: »ok, yeah.. he's takin the piss.
All i've heard is about how people that don't do it have "self-loathing issues".. and how all they're doing is living their life in fear.. and how it's sad and they SHOULDN'T do it. It's very preaching.. "you shouldn't live your life like that" "you should show affection in public because you are just feeding fear if you don't" "you shouldn't let scumbags stop you"
shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't
that is criticism. telling me that i should choose to live differently. telling me that my life is lesser.. a life lived in fear if i don't live like you.
What he just said has got to be the most stupid thing said in this forum.. i'm not even goin to sugar-coat it. that was STUPID. if you are gonna say that nobody has at all being criticised for not showing affection in public than you need t check your definition of criticism. this is a textbook example of criticism.
You're being deliberately obtuse. Time and time again its been said you shouldn't let fear stop you from showing public signs of affections, if that's what you want to do. It's an extreme reach to interpret that as people criticising those who don't hold hands/kiss out of a lack of desire.
You conclude that goodShape hasn't had the same experience as you, suggesting that if he had, he would see things the same way you do. You accuse him of being on a high moral horse and playing the martyr but I see no sign of either in his post. It seems to me from your responses that you have some serious hang up about this issue and view anyone without the same hang up as being in some way deluded and judging.b.ie curious wrote: »I'm seriously confused. What has Goodshape written to get you so mad? I can't see where he's judged you or looked down on you. He's just written his opinion based on his own experience, and you've gone off on one. Take a chill pill.
Goodshape never said it was brave to hold hands in public but rather duffer accused goodshape of thinking he was braver for doing so. The implication is that duffer actually views the act of hold hands and kissing as being one of bravery. Given its an act duffer thinks is "too dangerous" for him to do, goodShapes supposed bravery contrasts and highlights duffers lack of bravery. Feeling exposed, duffer lashes out aggressively at goodShape, accusing him of innocent, poncy, naivety.
The truth of the matter is goodShape isn't being brave. He recognises like me that the vast amount of time there is no danger. Its neither brave nor foolish/naive to hold hands when you perceive no danger. Some people have been so crippled by harsh experiences that they perceive danger around every conor and hate in the hearts of every person.0 -
duffster808 you don't have to be so rude and horrible to people just because their opinions differ to yours. Like even when I was talking to you in relation to flamboyant and masculine gays, you were making outlandish statements just like you're doing now. You go on saying everyone else is a snob and should get off their "moral high horse" when you don't even know that person and as far I'm concerned I didn't even detect those things about them from their posts. Maybe you ought to be a bit more respectful and have some manners or don't bother posting here and making people who are trying to have a civil conversation feel uncomfortable and using foul language. I find it rather amusing how you accused Goodshape of judging you when you're doing exactly that same thing to him and others! Talk about paradoxical!
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything but seriously calm down and have some some respect for your fellow posters.0 -
Indeed, some people should take a few deep breaths before they rant at the keyboard.0
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Okay, we ain't gonna agree. Sorry if my statements offended you (and if you're sensitive enough to be offended by the f-word
).. I was a bit offended if I'm bein honest by your ideas, but moreso how you tried to make out that it's ridiculous that they could cause someone offense.. because they easily can, and did. Anyway, i admit that i got too worked up and probably offended you guys aswell. So for that, i'm sorry. I still stick by what I said, and can't see how you're posts weren't critical of my lifestyle... but I ain't gonna get stressed.. life's too short. 0 -
Goodshape never said it was brave to hold hands in public but rather duffer accused goodshape of thinking he was braver for doing so. The implication is that duffer actually views the act of hold hands and kissing as being one of bravery. Given its an act duffer thinks is "too dangerous" for him to do, goodShapes supposed bravery contrasts and highlights duffers lack of bravery. Feeling exposed, duffer lashes out aggressively at goodShape, accusing him of innocent, poncy, naivety.
The truth of the matter is goodShape isn't being brave. He recognises like me that the vast amount of time there is no danger. Its neither brave nor foolish/naive to hold hands when you perceive no danger. Some people have been so crippled by harsh experiences that they perceive danger around every conor and hate in the hearts of every person.
ok, hadnt read this when i posted my apology. as far as i'm concerned usin bad language isn't half as bad as attackin someone's character like this. you imply i'm a coward "'too dangerous' for him to do"... "highlights duffer's lack of bravery".. you say that i am crippled by harsh experiences... this is gone too far man. I feel really ganged up on and bullied by everyone in this thread. I really really do.0 -
oh my god i can totally see wer duff is comin from, u people wer deffo implyin that other people should do it, that is well clear from readin both sides. yeh sure he should use his heab a bit more when it comes to resortin to insults but he has some valid points and it does come across like ye's are gangin up on him. some of the things said on both sides were damn scabby imho. callin people ponces is real bad considerin all. that last post by boston was real out of line. bad buzz dude.0
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duffster808 wrote: »ok, hadnt read this when i posted my apology. as far as i'm concerned usin bad language isn't half as bad as attackin someone's character like this. you imply i'm a coward "'too dangerous' for him to do"... "highlights duffer's lack of bravery".. you say that i am crippled by harsh experiences... this is gone too far man. I feel really ganged up on and bullied by everyone in this thread. I really really do.
Selectively misinterpreting some posts and ignoring others tends to have that affect. Maybe if you tried really really hard to understand what was being said you wouldn't feel so ganged up on.oh my god i can totally see wer duff is comin from, u people wer deffo implyin that other people should do it, that is well clear from readin both sides. yeh sure he should use his heab a bit more when it comes to resortin to insults but he has some valid points and it does come across like ye's are gangin up on him. some of the things said on both sides were damn scabby imho. callin people ponces is real bad considerin all. that last post by boston was real out of line. bad buzz dude.
In the real world people tend to ignore whatever point you're trying to make the minute you become insulting.0
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