Could Russia return to Communism?

murphaph

I've been thinking recently about our current global situation. We are told we are entering the worst financial catastrophe in a century. If this is true and the workers of the world see their standard of living eroded to nothing, could we see a mass turning away from capitalism as a failed entity?

With this in mind I note that there have been recent riots in Moscow vis-a-vis 'the economy' and seeing as very many russians have living memory of communism when they had a guaranteed warm flat, job and 2 weeks holidays a year and now many of them are living in cold decrepit fleapits with hardly 2 pennies to rub together, could they conceivably opt for a return to 'simpler times'-hedge fund/derivates/futures/shorting/and generally stock market and bank free?

The ordinary russian people must feel quite angry that their great national resources have been sold out to a handful of oligarchs while they live in poverty and I can see the underpaid police and military siding with the underpaid workers in any mass movement (revolution!).

I believe that if Russia turns communist again it could set a precedent and perhaps the desperate scrambling we are seeing to get the economies of the world moving again so we can all return to buying trinkets and shiny things is proof that the powers that be are scared of something.

What's the alternative for the workers of the world? To be made redundant, then homeless, then die?

todolist

I hardly think a return to communism will happen in Russia.Does anyone still believe in an ideology that has lead to mass murder on an unparalleled scale in Russia,China,Cambodia.
Communism is an insane ideology that leads to disaster wherever it's been introduced.

edanto

While I think I know what you're getting at - it's hard to discuss it when using a word which has no useful meaning!!

Communism - obviously in the context of the authoritarian states (including the USSR), is a bad thing, whereas the essence of what you are suggesting (revolt against corporatism and taking wealth from the uber-rich) would seem to be equitable, just and therefore a good thing.

There is a chance that arguing over the meanings of common words like communism or rarer words like corporatism will completely derail this thread.

In case there's someone left on the planet that hasn't read Politics and the English Language by George Orwell, here's a quote about the connections between semantics and politics

Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides.

It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.

Statements like Marshal Pétain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

I'm very grateful for todolist for jumping in above and giving me a little supporting material for this argument. He included China in a list of communist countries... but is China communist?

I mean of course they have a one party system and that party may or may not be called the Communist Party of China, but what is it about the Chinese way of government that makes it Communist todolist?

murphaph

@ todolist
Russia 2008:


Do you reckon that old lady thinks it was crazy in the bad old days when she didn't have to rummage in a bin for food? I'm not a leftie leaning student with anarchistic tendencies but something stinks with where we are today. Clearly there were major failings in the Soviet Union particularly under uncle Joe, but people get bumped off in multi-party democracies all the time.

Anyway, perhaps we shouldn't discuss the relative merits of capitalism-v-communism as it tends to go nowehere. Can we discuss the likelihood or otherwise of Russia tipping back towards Lenin et al?

todolist

China isn't a communist country now.It's a one party capitalist country.I meant under Mao it was communist and millions were murdered on an unparalleled industrial scale.

murphaph

todolist wrote: »

China isn't a communist country now.It's a one party capitalist country.I meant under Mao it was communist and millions were murdered on an unparalleled industrial scale.

The holocaust was murder on an industrial scale. China saw many people murdered. These things are agiven-nobody will debate whether or not lots of people 'disappeared' in communist and former communist states (like say, 'democratic' Brazil). China is perhaps the worst of both worlds! No real social infrastructure and no other party to vote for.

Mr.Micro

Both China and Russia have benefited enormously from the economic booms in the world for the last few years. China with GDP in range 10 to 15% and Russia huge wealth from oil, gas and raw materials. It is easy to think then that the communist type state that both are identified with is gone, but not so IMO. It is the economic prosperity that masks this at the minute. Both now are suffering a little with the downturn, Russia particularly with the huge drop in the oil price, and more problems and social unrest may ensue. Perhaps we will see then how tolerant the authorities are.


Only the other day there were riots in Vladivostock because of the downturn and handled roughly by the police. I did read somewhere that Russia has turned a bit more authoritarian in the last few years and that its press is totally bought, its parliament is a sham and people do not talk openly, a democracy in name only.

dresden8

murphaph wrote: »

@ todolist
Russia 2008:


Do you reckon that old lady thinks it was crazy in the bad old days when she didn't have to rummage in a bin for food? I'm not a leftie leaning student with anarchistic tendencies but something stinks with where we are today. Clearly there were major failings in the Soviet Union particularly under uncle Joe, but people get bumped off in multi-party democracies all the time.

Anyway, perhaps we shouldn't discuss the relative merits of capitalism-v-communism as it tends to go nowehere. Can we discuss the likelihood or otherwise of Russia tipping back towards Lenin et al?

I'm sure she'd be fucking delighted if Russia returned to communism. She wouldn't have to eat sh1t to survive.

That's what the free market economists won't dare admit. Russians are screwed. So are the westerners who bought into the market and thought they had a pension to live on.

The rich will be ok though.

Sucks to be taken for a sap.

edanto

murphaph wrote: »

Can we discuss the likelihood or otherwise of Russia tipping back towards Lenin et al?

I would like to, but I just don't know enough about Russia, the current political situation, the big influencers in society etc, so I'd have to just leave it at "I don't know".

todolist wrote:

I meant under Mao it was communist and millions were murdered on an unparalleled industrial scale.

I mean it's obvious that the reason he was a murderous bastard was because he was a communist. duh. He was probably a vegetarian like Hitler too. Hate those vegetarians and their ideologies. <sarcastic smilie>

I guess what I'm trying to say to you is that it's overly simplistic to say that a particular ideology in itself is 'failed' or 'bad' as it always comes down to the details.

It is easy to think then that the communist type state that both are identified with is gone, but not so IMO.

China is not communist. China is authoritarian capitalist. When combined, the ideologies of absolute control and market driven economics are absolutely ruthless. Here is some more reading.

I don't know what level of democracy that there is in Russia or how widespread use of the web is. If it is as unfettered as it in the US, it's possible that someone with the economic positions and grassroots support of Chavez/Obama could emerge as a leader, but that is nothing more than a guess - or more like a hope.

I'd love it if socialist governments would emerge everywhere to try and clean up the mess that unfettered capitalism has made of the world.

Mr.Micro

There was series on BBC2 there recently with Jonathan Dimbleby travelling across Russia. It was facinating IMO, such a vast country and the diversity of the peoples is enormous. One common thread though was, nearly all wanted to see Russia great again and that they were more interested in having jobs, money and all 3 were more important than democracy, as they believed that's a luxury down the line. Hugely nationalistic a common factor.

Frankie Lee

Russia was never great, before the Bolshevik revolution Russia was a third world country,

Only for a few years around the time revolution had it any true forms of socialism (e.g workers councils etc.). This was then quashed as Lenin and Trotsky consoidated their power.

What Russia had under Lenin & Trotsky was a form of State Capitalism which was described as communism. This was a brutal regime no doubt with a lot of corruption in the upper echelons of power however as the op points out the average living conditions of the poor were not as bad.

Sand

That woman wouldnt fare any better in a communist Russia. Theres people in North Korea living in a communist regime who dream of having bins to find food in. Shes a victim of a quasi-totalarian government that completely disregards individuals and their personal freedoms. They print their money based on oil, and simply have no interest in representing people like her.

murphaph

Of coure N. Korea has few natural resources and exports nothing, so there's little to eat. Russia is resource rich and exports a large percentage of the world's energy and raw materials. I suggest she did and would fare better in a Russia where all industry and resources were once again controlled by the state.

Cow Moolester

murphaph wrote: »

@ todolist
Russia 2008:


Do you reckon that old lady thinks it was crazy in the bad old days when she didn't have to rummage in a bin for food? I'm not a leftie leaning student with anarchistic tendencies but something stinks with where we are today. Clearly there were major failings in the Soviet Union particularly under uncle Joe, but people get bumped off in multi-party democracies all the time.

Anyway, perhaps we shouldn't discuss the relative merits of capitalism-v-communism as it tends to go nowehere. Can we discuss the likelihood or otherwise of Russia tipping back towards Lenin et al?

How do you know she benefited from communist Russia? That picture is so vague..I could do the exact same thing.


Yes..an old man begging for money. He would have fared much better back before Ireland joined the EU

Fallen Buckshot

Cow Moolester wrote: »

How do you know she benefited from communist Russia? That picture is so vague..I could do the exact same thing.


Yes..an old man begging for money. He would have fared much better back before Ireland joined the EU

holy ****e thats the king of all neckbeards

lmtduffy

I would say no,

The Russian government is all about capitalism and profit, and when convenient its about making russia great again.

The wealth is vastly concentrated in the hands of a minority, and any actions by the government will be to benefit these wealthy few and will be a bonus if it looks like its of the states benefit.

The government have no will to turn back to communism, and I dont believe the people do either, they're making very little noise with regards to the censored media, authoritarian government and centralising of most of the governments power to the presidency which putin is likely to take up again once the current guys term is up.

The people arent making noise about these things because they are the sacrifice they are willing to make to secure their own wealth, the Russian government is cutting corners in order to succeed and the majority of the citizens are cool with that to a point.

Mr.Micro

Maybe Russia will return as this poll is a stark warning...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7798497.stm

todolist

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Maybe Russia will return as this poll is a stark warning...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7798497.stm

Voting for a mass murderer and a psychopath.Oh dear,poor old Russia.

Amazotheamazing

If Communism was workable, Russia would still be communist. They didn't give up on it because it was too successful.

asdasd

I suggest she did and would fare better in a Russia where all industry and resources were once again controlled by the state.

Controlling the commanding heights of the economy in a resource heavy state is common, and possible, and maybe even desirable in capitalist states - not one of which has a State with zero% of GDP.

The labour party wanted the same for the UK. It wasnt communist. Mexico controls it's oil. So does Norway. It is not communist.

I think the State should control resources, although it may need the expertise of private companies to originally explore for resources.

Communism is something else, everybody earning the same. To do that you cannot have a market econmy at all, even a small one, as a succesful small businessman, or better trained worker competing for a job, or any small business - can be more succesful than other people selling their goods, or labour, in a free market. Lenin and Stalin realised this. Every singe Marxist on the planet agreed with them at the time, and demur now.

In the UK, for instance, 24 million people are employed in small businesses ( 15 people or less). That is far more than the State ( the biggest single employer) and many of these businesses will fail in the next year - but, due to the enrepeneurialism of the British population - many more will succeed ( and will cause the success) of the British economy once the recession, and credit crunch ends.

Not only is this system much more economically succesful, it is far more moral, far more interesting, far more human, a far better way to live than being employee number 108,912 in the local potash factory. It is also free while communist States had to imprison their citizens behind walls, in case they see the much better societies of the West.

Nothing stops capitalist societies from keeping the poor from the breadline - the poor in capitalist countries with social programs live lives expoentially better than all citizens in Cuba, North Korea, or the old Soviet Union.

And why, oh why, dont we ever see the apologists for communism emigrate to communist States? People leave ireland for everywhere else - Europe, South America, the US, Canada, Australa. All capitalist.

The West is crawling with pro-communists who just wont emigrate to communist states, no matter how we offer to pay their way. Would they please just shag off to the paradises they demand for everyone else, and leave us in peace?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

marco murphy

todolist wrote: »

I hardly think a return to communism will happen in Russia.Does anyone still believe in an ideology that has lead to mass murder on an unparalleled scale in Russia,China,Cambodia.
Communism is an insane ideology that leads to disaster wherever it's been introduced.

Capatalism is responsible for more deaths than all Communist regimes put together.

And why, oh why, dont we ever see the apologists for communism emigrate to communist States?

Give us a list of Communist states.
Also, why would a person wishing to see Communism in his or her homeland want to emigrate and dump that objective?

If Communism was workable, Russia would still be communist. They didn't give up on it because it was too successful.

They didn't ''give up on it''.

Why don't people go away and read about it instead of making silly assumptions?
According to the logic of most posters on this thread Communism = Industrial killing.

sceptre

Perestroika wrote: »

Capatalism is responsible for more deaths than all Communist regimes put together.

Of course it is. There are more capitalists than communists, always have been, and they've been around longer.

Sand

Of course it is. There are more capitalists than communists, always have been, and they've been around longer.

All credit to the communists though, theyre new kids on the historical block, but christ, when they get into power they really know how to run an old fashioned genocide.

According to the logic of most posters on this thread Communism = Industrial killing.

Thats how things tend to pan out. Pol Pot. Stalin. Lenin. The two Kims. Various Eastern European, African, Asian and Latin American regimes. We arent talking an all star list of humanitarians here.

Maybe you could counter with a list of communist regimes and leaders that we can all admire? Maybe the ones that are just criminally incompetent or blinded by idealogy as opposed to being purely malicious?

Also, why would a person wishing to see Communism in his or her homeland want to emigrate and dump that objective?

Why would anyone flee a horrific regime for a better life abroad? Countless people do it every day. The inescapable truth is a lot of people in liberal democratic capitalist society love the "idea" of communism, but are terrified of the reality of it. With good reason.

Russia isnt going to return to communism anyway. It will move further into totalarian nationalism but communism is merely a memory. Some Russians might like the "idea" of it, but what they think stopped being important a few years ago. I remember reading a discussion on Russian reaction to the election of Obama on another forum. Posters were linking to Russian newspaper articles where the whole process of democratic elections, accountability and so on were ridiculed and mocked by the Russian versions of The Sun or whatever. As one poster there put it "Jesus, they arent even pretending to be democratic anymore".

the_syco

murphaph wrote: »

The ordinary russian people must feel quite angry that their great national resources have been sold out to a handful of oligarchs while they live in poverty and I can see the underpaid police and military siding with the underpaid workers in any mass movement (revolution!).

Are you talking about the oil companies? IIRC, most of the big Russian oil companies were nationalised, it's owners sentenced to jail for stupid reasons, and the money spent on military hardware...

cendant

Guys, By your comments I gather none of you is Russian? You seem to be quite intelligent and knowledgable.

No, most people in Russia do not want communism back. They simply miss the good things that were in the Soviet Union (jobs, excellent free education, good health care system)

By the way, the minimum paid holiday was 24 days, not two weeks. My mum as a teacher got three months paid holiday in the summer (unfortunately, the money was not great and she was forced to work in children's summer reacreation camps)

Akrasia

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Only the other day there were riots in Vladivostock because of the downturn and handled roughly by the police. I did read somewhere that Russia has turned a bit more authoritarian in the last few years and that its press is totally bought, its parliament is a sham and people do not talk openly, a democracy in name only.

I read a journal somewhere a few years ago that compared the content and rhetoric in the corrupt totalitarian press of communist russa with the 'free and democratic' press in the united states. The paper showed an almost identical level of bias and propaganda from both sides.

Mr.Micro

Akrasia wrote: »

I read a journal somewhere a few years ago that compared the content and rhetoric in the corrupt totalitarian press of communist russa with the 'free and democratic' press in the united states. The paper showed an almost identical level of bias and propaganda from both sides.

I would not dispute that for a moment. The press will always pander to its masters and is usually owned as we all know by media moguls, usually ultra conservative, not the sorts who believe in equality but in control. It is no different in Russia I guess.

cendant

Exactly.

Although there is a difference: we have lived through the dark times and we see when we are lied to. People in Russia are not that stupid and trusting any more.

At the same time the Americans take everything their government tells them for granted. So naive.

From what my friends living in the USA told me and from other sources, I think the Americans did not defeat the communism, but the communism has defeated them.

The USA these days are like the Soviet Union in 60-70s. Of course, they are significantly richer, but they are making exactly the same mistakes (even worse).

Welcome to the USSR 2

cendant

BTW, why do you believe that we had communism in Russia?

It was never the case. We had a socialist, one-party society with ineffective economy and corrupt old bureaucrats who lead the country into the limbo.

My childhood was great: good food, great school years, lots of travel and experiences. The poverty and hardship arrived in 1980s when the as**** Gorbachev started to make changes without thinking.

edanto

cendant wrote: »

I think the Americans did not defeat the communism, but the communism has defeated them.

The USA these days are like the Soviet Union in 60-70s. Of course, they are significantly richer, but they are making exactly the same mistakes (even worse).

Welcome to the USSR 2

Interesting point. On considerations - I s'pose the US of A has some characteristics of a totalitarian regime a lá Soviet Union in 60-70s. Very tenuous links though, can you build them?

I find the whole thing a lot more interesting if you stay away from words like communism though and just watch the money.

Watch the money.