Could Russia return to Communism?

cendant

Or rather, smell the money

RiverWilde

Communism or Capitalism have nothing to do with the citizen and everything to do with power. The reason capitalism has worked thus far is that the citizen in general gets a better shot at life than the poor devil under communism. If someone came up with a system called Advanced Tiddlywinks and it allowed the oligarchs in western society to retain power they'd probably accept it.

Since world war II western democracies have seen a large increase in people with access to decent education - the days are largely gone where the local cleric or politican can stand up and tell the people what to do and think. This leaves those in power with a bit of a conundrum - in that, they have to deliver - unlike countries with overtly totalitarian systems, the govt. can't just roll out the tanks - China anyone? - and shoot anyone asking awkward questions.

Despite the flaws in the system of communism as implemented in Russia - the tenets of communism are sound. Why should 10% of the population of a society have 80% or 90% of the wealth?

At least in Europe there is a socialist underpinning to most governments - for the moment - you won't starve. I wouldn't like to be broke and living in the United States.

Riv

cendant

I am not very good at debating

It is hard to know what is wrong with the modern States (once the country of freedom), you can only feel it. A tangling sensation that something is terribly amiss. Call it the sixth sense of a seasoned pessimist. 2009-2010 will be tough for the poor guys there.

* the Republic is no more

the founders of the American republic warned their new folks that the USA must not to become a democracy. Read the Declaration - not a word about the democracy. Democracy can be easily abused - that happened to the Soviets.

"Soviet" is in fact "Совет" in Russian. It means a board of people who make democratic decisions together. It worked great in the beginning, but then it started to stagnate. People made decisions based on what their leaders told them to do. Then the leaders started to make decision and the rest only had to raise their hands - or else. The leaders became worse and worse.

Reminds me of the hard-core belief by the Americans that they make decisions in the country, not their riches. Ha-ha

* excessive law power - at the power of corrupt judges and greedy attorneys

Laws are so complicated and tangled that judges do not allow people to use the Constitution or the real legislation in defense. We had the same - Stalin's constitution was probably the most humane in that world, the laws were honest, but you could not use them in court.

* Total control over minds and thoughts of their citizens.

We had greater freedom. At least, the KGB tapped the dissidents' phones only, they did not use systems like Echelon. We could live without SSNs (absolute control of your money, your education, your travel, your purchases) - the people in the States are like SKUs in komplett.ie!


* ICS is a racketeering organisation


* Welfare system is a pyramid

Working people are in fact sponsoring the pensioners, their money is not used for their pensions. If they are lucky, their pensions will be paid by the working people in their future, but is that guaranteed?


* they have lost their rights in exchange for privileges


* political correctness has become a total misconception

One step from the ranks - and you are told off by the world. Or imprisoned. Or fired.

No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion in the modern States.


* Elections are a farсe

Not only do they resemble the zoo of the elections of the Communist Party's leader, they also show that there is only one party at power in the States - the party of the rich.


* Two parties - one ideology.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

“The difference between Democrats and Republicans is: Democrats have accepted some ideas of Socialism cheerfully, while Republicans have accepted them reluctantly” (Norman Thomas)

I strongly agree


* the novel "1984" was not written with the Soviet Russia in mind

Oh no. It was a warning to a country that uses totalitarian rule of propaganda, censorship, secret police and rights restriction.

All the Oceania's principles are visible and applicable in the American political life these days and it seems Obama is not willing to change that.

cendant

So, what is common with the Soviet Union and the modern USA:

USSR: KGB
USA: CIA, FBI, DHS and IRS


USSR: squealing and delation (encouraged by the government but hated by most people, not on a grand scale)
USA: squealing and delation (cultured from childhood and total)

USSR: spying on citizens (limited) and repressions (mostly during Stalin's rule)
USA: total and unlimited spying on citizens by Big Brother and arrests of "potential" "terrorists"

USSR: all are equal, but a few are more equal than others
USA: egalitarianism

USSR: general line of the Communist party
USA: political correctness, any nonconformity is illegal

USSR: corrupt power
USA: corrupt power

USSR: secret police raids (only during Stalin's rule)
USA: ultimate rights for the federal agencies, drag-nets and confiscation, real laws are totally ignored, citizen's freedoms are spat on

USSR: censored press, all media is subordinate to the central power
USA: independent press is NOT, it is a weapon of mass propaganda and is under severe censorship

USSR: socialistic education
USA: education which is controlled by the government and which does not raise free and independent citizens


USSR: Communist slogans about "bright future" in the greatest country of the world
USA: non-stop glorification of the greatest country in the world, slogans


USSR: the end justifies the means
USA: the end justifies the means

Mr_Anon

As human society progresses, things become more and more equal. The gap between the higher and lower classes decreases. The feudal system was replaced with our class system, a communist society is the the final stage in this progression of human society towards equality. No class of person. No inequality.

In our society the working class spend their low wage on basic necessities for life where this expenditure goes towards the profit of the burgeoise (middle class people). The burgeoise generates wealth where the working class are stuck in the same struggle for survival when the middle class live in luxury at the expense of the working class.

Communism removes this inequality. Everyone plays their part towards society with nobody being rewarded more than others. A central government distributes the wealth equally throughout the people. the economy of the country grows from the work of the people with no wealth going into a private pocket.

This is communism in its greatest form but would be very hard to achieve as there will always be people who want more than others. They wont accept being equal.

The USSR collapsed because of pressure from the USA and other capitalist countries. Should Russia and the other republics of the USSR return to communism, trade with china and other countries which are sympathetic to the socialist revolution would aid the success of communism.

Globalisation increases the risk of recession in the capitalist countries as anyone who knows about chaos theory will be aware of. Countries will grow tired of recession and the capitalist system will fail as did the feudal system before it. The working class will grow tired eventually of the inequalities and the socialist revolutuion will begin again but on a much larger scale

Cow Moolester

Cow Moolester wrote: »

How do you know she benefited from communist Russia? That picture is so vague..I could do the exact same thing.


Yes..an old man begging for money. He would have fared much better back before Ireland joined the EU

Forced to eat Burger King...I'd rather be the woman eating out of the bin!



Zing!

asdasd

Communism removes this inequality. Everyone plays their part towards society with nobody being rewarded more than others. A central government distributes the wealth equally throughout the people. the economy of the country grows from the work of the people with no wealth going into a private pocket.

Fantastic. We are back to centralized planning!!!

asdasd

Why should 10% of the population of a society have 80% or 90% of the wealth?

why should Ronaldo earn more than you? Maybe he is better footballer.


These debates are nonsensical anyway. Communism does not work. People do not want to work for the other guy. We can tax the very rich in Western Democracies without making the guy working 50 hours a week, or the very skilled guy, or the guy who set up the Computer company whose computer I am using to write this missive earn as much as the loaf in the public sector.

We dont want to earn the same. We want to do better.

Even the freaking public service is full of demarcations. Lets try out communism in the PS. Pay the consultants - who are overpaid - the same as the cleaners. Lets see if we get worse consultants and better cleaners.

Liam Byrne

todolist wrote: »

Does anyone still believe in an ideology that has lead to mass murder on an unparalleled scale in Russia,China,Cambodia.

As distinct from an ideology that has led to mass murder in Iraq ?

Wouldn't be in favour of any form of Communism, but some form of socialism would make a nice change to the current worldwide rat-race..

djpbarry

Mr_Anon wrote: »

In our society the working class spend their low wage on basic necessities for life where this expenditure goes towards the profit of the burgeoise (middle class people). The burgeoise generates wealth where the working class are stuck in the same struggle for survival when the middle class live in luxury at the expense of the working class.

Bollocks.

You trying to tell me that someone who is brought up in an “underprivileged” environment is doomed to spending the rest of their life working menial jobs for peanuts?

I can’t stand this “working class – middle class” nonsense that people come out with – it’s so bloody patronising.

Mr_Anon wrote: »

This is communism in its greatest form but would be very hard to achieve as there will always be people who want more than others. They wont accept being equal.

Why should they? Why should I be forced to accept the same standard of living as the lazy bastard down the street who just about manages to drag his ass out of bed once a week to collect his social welfare allowance? I work harder than he does, therefore I feel I am entitled to a better standard of living.

Mr_Anon wrote: »

Globalisation increases the risk of recession in the capitalist countries as anyone who knows about chaos theory will be aware of.

So there would be a lower risk of recession in Ireland were we to remain outside the EU?

Iwasfrozen

@Mr_Anon I know you're new around here but word to the wise, Necroing threads is not the way to make friends around here.

Dannyboy83

Most interesting thread on the board for furkin ages.

Mr_Anon

djpbarry wrote: »

Bollocks.

Why should they? Why should I be forced to accept the same standard of living as the lazy bastard down the street who just about manages to drag his ass out of bed once a week to collect his social welfare allowance? I work harder than he does, therefore I feel I am entitled to a better standard of living.

So there would be a lower risk of recession in Ireland were we to remain outside the EU?

in communism there is no welfare allowance. If u do not work u dont get paid. simple as. That not fair?

Forming trade blocks like the EU is not what i meant. I meant the connecting of markets by computers makes them more reliable on each other, one fails the all crash.

@ asdasd
The man who makes a simple loaf of bread can last longer without the consultant than the consultant can without the breadman

BroomBurner

Mr_Anon wrote: »

in communism there is no welfare allowance. If u do not work u dont get paid. simple as. That not fair?

Forming trade blocks like the EU is not what i meant. I meant the connecting of markets by computers makes them more reliable on each other, one fails the all crash.

@ asdasd
The man who makes a simple loaf of bread can last longer without the consultant than the consultant can without the breadman

In communist countried, there is no unemployment. There are job-seekers, but no unemployment. That way, they have full employment to rally the troops with, to tell everyone how great they're doing.

I would be all for a more socialist leaning government, akin to the Scandinavian countries, but no way in any hell would I vote, democratically, for a communist government. It would be the last democractic vote I would ever be entitled to.

As for Russia, it is so easy to remember having a flat, etc. but also very easy to forget the gulags, the misery, the threat of "disappearing", or being killed, your neighbours informing on you, your life never allowed to follow it's own path, having to do exactly what's already laid out for you.

Yeah, it's easy to be nostalgic when you can forget the rest of it.

Mr_Anon

BroomBurner wrote: »

As for Russia, it is so easy to remember having a flat, etc. but also very easy to forget the gulags, the misery, the threat of "disappearing", or being killed, your neighbours informing on you, your life never allowed to follow it's own path, having to do exactly what's already laid out for you.

communism in Russia was far from perfect. gulags maybe not a good idea. A new form of communism would learn from history would it not? and move towards perfection.

A new form of communism would perhaps differ from communism so much it could not be called communism. Maybe another form of socialism. I just think total equality will come about one way or another, and total eqaulity was the aim of communism

"I am not a marxist" <Karl Marx

ionix5891

Mr_Anon wrote: »

communism in Russia was far from perfect. gulags maybe not a good idea. A new form of communism would learn from history would it not? and move towards perfection.

A new form of communism would perhaps differ from communism so much it could not be called communism. Maybe another form of socialism. I just think total equality will come about one way or another, and total eqaulity was the aim of communism

"I am not a marxist" <Karl Marx

none of the commenter's here have been to or spend any time Russia have they? cause I tell you one thing beside the very old pensioners who did have it much better in the "olde" days, most of the younger generations have embraced capitalism to the levels that would make us Irish seem "socialist"

if anything the country will slide into a dictatorship (some say its already there), actually it one place i wont be returning too, the latest surge in nazi nationalist/xenophobia makes the place very unsafe for foreigners

turgon

Mr_Anon wrote: »

gulags maybe not a good idea

Maybe not a good idea? Are you for real?

djpbarry

Mr_Anon wrote: »

in communism there is no welfare allowance. If u do not work u dont get paid. simple as. That not fair?

And no matter how hard you work, or no matter how good you are at your work, you still get paid the same as the worst worker. Is that fair? I don't think so.

Mr_Anon wrote: »

Forming trade blocks like the EU is not what i meant. I meant the connecting of markets by computers makes them more reliable on each other, one fails the all crash.

Really? So if the Irish economy crashes, the entire global economy goes with it? Interesting...

Mr_Anon

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? So if the Irish economy crashes, the entire global economy goes with it? Interesting...

Not what i meant. i meant that they will all be affected. And because ireland relies heavily on foreign investors, if the irish economy fails then those investors are affected and this has a domino effect back in their homes.

djpbarry

Mr_Anon wrote: »

Not what i meant. i meant that they will all be affected.

But you used the word "crash". That doesn't mean "affected" (sic), that means crash. You’re shifting the goalposts.

And you still haven't answered my question about your "working class".

ilkhanid

It is extremely unlikely Russia will ever return to Communism. The Russians have discovered a taste for Capitalism,even ex-communists. The Church has a lot of influence too.
But....I could see Russia sliding into authoritarianism very easily. Remember Communism bedded down so easily in Russia because of a lack of a Democratic tradition and the rule of law.These things are still shaky there. A dictatorship in Russia would most likely combine extreme nationalism with features of the Soviet past and of the Czarist past. There is an interesting book that goes through various possibilities called "Russia 2010".

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

truebluedub

ionix5891 wrote: »

if anything the country will slide into a dictatorship (some say its already there), actually it one place i wont be returning too, the latest surge in nazi nationalist/xenophobia makes the place very unsafe for foreigners

On the other hand the state itself has been prosecuting neo-nazi's. It also went to war to protect the Russian Jews in Georgia which with suppressing the opposition party seems far closer to a totalitarian state. Of course Sakhisvili does seem to be insane.

aljacks

Just so you know: this thread was translated into Russian (http://inoforum.ru/inostrannaya_pressa/irlandskij_forum_mozhet_li_rossiya_vernutsya_k_kommunizmu/)
See what Russians think of you http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF8&hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://inoforum.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=5016

Martyr

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

surely you mean "Capitalism" :pac:

ChocolateSauce

I would say no. Russia is a lot wealthier and more stable than it was in 1917, and communism only really gains hold in dirt poor, war-torn countries or with the backing of an already existing and belligerent communist power. There are too many extremely wealthy and powerful Russians with vested interests against a return to it.

The communist party may of course make electoral gains, and could even hypothetically return to power with a mandate, but a "return to communism" implies a return to the one party state, and I don't think that is likely.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Very true, although too far left certainly isn't the only way to totalitarianism and slavery.

nayorleck114

todolist wrote: »

I hardly think a return to communism will happen in Russia.Does anyone still believe in an ideology that has lead to mass murder on an unparalleled scale in Russia,China,Cambodia.
Communism is an insane ideology that leads to disaster wherever it's been introduced.

Agree 100%, However there are a lot of people who miss communism(in former Communist countries), In there eyes they had a job, (state job) and food, an apartment and food. So there was some stability which they relied on. I personally can't understand it, but for the communism was the good old days. Even in Poland where the catholic population was pretty anti Russia-Communism, they did miss some of the aspects of the communist years.

Yes it was insane, and millions died, however the millions that survived did not see the death directly. Of course during communist times most people looked to the west with hope and envy. Younger generations would not go back to communism.

turgon

aljacks wrote: »

Just so you know: this thread was translated into Russian (http://inoforum.ru/inostrannaya_pressa/irlandskij_forum_mozhet_li_rossiya_vernutsya_k_kommunizmu/)
See what Russians think of you http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF8&hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://inoforum.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=5016

I think the discussion is "lost in translation." All I hear is some uber mature comments about Irish being Idiots, but no explanation of what they are actually giving out about.

asdasd

I think the discussion is "lost in translation." All I hear is some uber mature comments about Irish being Idiots, but no explanation of what they are actually giving out about.

We are probably part of a global imperialist conspiracy to overthrow the Great Russian Nation, and its manifold destiny to rule half of Northern Eurasia.

Also we dont understand communism. It was great for Russia, werent it. Ruling three quarters of Northern Eurasia. No wonder the Russian chauvanist has a bit of nostalgia for it.

turgon

asdasd wrote: »

Also we dont understand communism. It was great for Russia, werent it. Ruling three quarters of Northern Eurasia. No wonder the Russian chauvanist has a bit of nostalgia for it.

Yes because apparently our corrupt education and lack of ability to discuss issues freely. Because we all know Ireland favours lowly in freedom of speech and Russia so high.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index#Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index

...