LeBron is getting better and better.........

eagle eye

I'm a Celtics fan and have been for a long, long time. I have watched the best of players over the years and I always seen Michael Jordan as the best ever, even though my good Boston friends will all say Larry Bird.

I've seen enough of LeBron James this season to make me believe that he is a real challenger to Michael Jordan as the best player I've ever seen. I know its early in his career still but I am blown away by his consistently brilliant performances. He has been great for a while but I think his game has improved beyond just great at this stage.

Just wondering what the rest of you think?

Lafortezza

He's amazing, but until LeBron (or Kobe for that manner) wins several championships by carrying his team on his back, and making ridiculous legendary game winning shots like MJ or Bird did, then they will only be hall of famers.

If you can get your hands in this book
http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Keeps-Michael-Jordan-World/dp/0767904443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230079686&sr=1-1
its well worth a read. Gives a great insght to Jordan's Bulls and why he was the greatest.

eagle eye

lafortezza wrote: »

He's amazing, but until LeBron (or Kobe for that manner) wins several championships by carrying his team on his back, and making ridiculous legendary game winning shots like MJ or Bird did, then they will only be hall of famers.

If you can get your hands in this book
http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Keeps-Michael-Jordan-World/dp/0767904443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230079686&sr=1-1
its well worth a read. Gives a great insght to Jordan's Bulls and why he was the greatest.

I watched the Bulls while Jordan played for them and Jackson coached them. It was an amazing team but he was so special and the proof or course was that he won six in a row iirc. He won three took two years out and then won another three as far as I remember and the Rockets won the two in between I think.
They had Pippin who was also a fine player and then the king of defense Dennis Rodman, and then of course you had Kukoc as well for some of those wins and Kerr who scored a ridiculous amount of three pointers due to the fact that teams had to try and protect against Jordan.

I'm not saying LeBron has done it yet, but having watched a lot this season already I think its only a matter of time before he is winning championships whether thats with Cleveland or the Knicks as is widely rumoured right now I think its gonna happen. Jordan had to wait for his rings too, he was a top player for quite a while before it happened.

Carcharodon

LeBron is a freak of nature, he is nearly a perfectly built basketball player, he has all the physical attributes to make him into one of the greatest of all time. His all round game is also pretty impressive as well, he has improved a great deal this season although I think he can be a bit too selfish at times, when I first saw him play he was a great team player but think he drifted away from that a bit last season.
It is understandable to compare him to Jordan but in my opinion, Jordan is not only the greatest basketball player but probably the the best athlete ever. He more or less rebuilt the NBA and made it what it is today. His all round game will not be matched I think, he made the players around him into superstars, when most of these players moved on they were very ordinary without Jordan. I don't think he will ever be matched !

Having said that LeBron is a very very special player and I agree he will end up winning championships in the future

Sea Devils

Just imagine when he goes to NY to play for the Knicks. Ultra megastar status.

Carcharodon

Sea Devils wrote: »

Just imagine when he goes to NY to play for the Knicks. Ultra megastar status.

Its going to be crazy, it is becoming more and more about LeBron James the celebrity than the basketball player, which is understandable but I hope he concentrates on the team he is going to be with and improving as a player. His ego has increased over the last year which is also natural but I hope he doesn't turn into Kobe !

Kinetic^

Rings are what define legendary status. He's just about to turn 24 which means he's still about 5/6 years to go before he reaches his prime. I'd like him to stay in Cleveland and create a dynasty there. Teams like the Knicks, Celtics & Bulls all have a big history, staying in Cleveland would give him a chance to put the Cavs up their with the big teams when/if he gets the rings.

His talent is not in doubt and he will probably have to carry a team to a ring given that his wages demand will greatly reduce the cap availability. If you compare them to the Bulls of the 95-99 era, they don't even come close atm. I've watched them over the past couple of years in the playoffs and the ball goes to LeBron every time. While there's nothing particularly wrong with that if he's scoring, when he's not the other folk are going to be scared stiff when the ball lands in their hands and they're asked to do something with it. The triangle offense for the bulls was great as it created a lot but when you've got LeBron bringing the ball up the court it kind of shows the opposition how to set themselves up.

I've not followed it much this year as I've not been keeping an eye on the sites or watching the games so I'm not sure what people mean about his ego. Jordan had the same thing apparently but tbh, Jordan was a winner. If you take the stuff about him gambling, he just wanted to win at every single he did in life. He had an unbelievable drive to win and I think Kobe was heading for the same path but somewhere along the way got lost and caught up in off and on court bullsh1t. I hope LeBron turns out to be a great winner like Jordan as if he went the other route I can see him being hated like No.8. Right now, LeBron = NBA. in terms of marketing and being the face of the league. Look at this thing on their site about his birthday and showing 24 hours of him, iirc Kobe ain't got stuff like this and with good reason, he's an arrogant gimp.

No doubt Phil will be along to smooth out the rough edges in my argument.

soloparadox

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Kobe ain't got stuff like this and with good reason, he's an arrogant gimp.

Plus he is not as good a player. If Lebron had Gasol and Bynum with Odom to come off the bench he would be unstoppable.

Kinetic^

soloparadox wrote: »

Plus he is not as good a player. If Lebron had Gasol and Bynum with Odom to come off the bench he would be unstoppable.

I wouldn't say that tbh. I think Kobe is a great player even if I can't stand watching him play. I think He needs to learn that it's a team game, if he could understand that he'd have more rings.

ZUUL

When LeBron gets the right people around him the Cavs will be unstoppable. All they need is that one other star player (the Pippen factor!) and the Cavs will have it down. Would be a shame if he ended up in NY in 2010.

IMO if he gets the rings; whether it be in Cleveland or NY, then he will eclipse MJ as the greatest player (and possibly the most marketable?) If it all turns sour, then No.

Lafortezza

If he does go to NY, he will probably get the biggest contract in NBA history. Even thought the Knicks are the richest team in the league in terms of going over the salary cap and paying the most luxury tax, they still need to surround LeBron with quality team mates. The way Boston currently has the Big 3 + Rondo, and the Lakers have Kobe/Odom/Gasol/Bynum.
As good as LeBron is he can't score 50 every night and carry the whole team to championships. The Knicks front office doesn't really have a good track record in managing a franchise very well.

phil

uhhhhh ... I agree with Kinetic



I can kinda see what people are talking about thinking he's arrogant, but I think there's another way to take it as I've seen so much of him now. I think he's a bit of a joker, very charismatic and he's more and more comfortable with cameras and people looking at him and he's letting people see stuff that most people hide when they're in crowds.

Every good player has a certain amount of arrogance, that comes with the territory, it's whether it's overbearing. I think at the moment he's on the right side of it... it's playful.

eagle eye

Kinetic^ wrote: »

I wouldn't say that tbh. I think Kobe is a great player even if I can't stand watching him play. I think He needs to learn that it's a team game, if he could understand that he'd have more rings.

Kobe is a fantastic player but I wouldn't mention him in the same breath as Jordan(out on his own), Bird, Dr J, Magic, Russell or Thomas.

They were all elite players like him but they were team players as well. I think Shaq made that team as he was rebouding a lot of Kobe's misses. Now Gasol is doing a great job there but they have never replaced Shaq and its going to be really hard to do that.

The reason the Celtics beat the Lakers last year was defence, but when you have top class defenders you can possibly negate the Kobe threat and he doesn't do enough team work to beat a great defense on a consistent basis. I think its getting a little late in his career, I know he is still young but not young enough to go back to basketball school and learn the attributes he needs to become one of the greatest ever.

Thats what I see in LeBron, he has all the skills and he is also a great team player. Thats why I think he could in ten years or so time be mentioned in the same breath as MJ. I really think he is that special.

Kinetic^

ZUUL wrote: »

IMO if he gets the rings; whether it be in Cleveland or NY, then he will eclipse MJ as the greatest player (and possibly the most marketable?) If it all turns sour, then No.

Jordan has so many individual titles to his name as well as the 6 rings, I think Lebron needs to get started asap tbh.

Carcharodon

I have mentioned Le Brons ego before but he is actually pretty level headed for such a superstar.
He was probably better than Kobe last year but went unnoticed because the Lakers went to the finals. He is by far the best player in the league this year, MVP for sure.

Was watching the game last night against the Celtics and he was out of this world, he killed them, they could not handle him at all, every part of his game was incredible.

LeBron will probably be regarded as better than Kobe when the dust settles but it will be tough to match Jordan, he has the ability though.
The Cavs will be hard to beat this year, home record is very impressive and securing home court advantage goes a long way

eagle eye

Carcharodon wrote: »

I have mentioned Le Brons ego before but he is actually pretty level headed for such a superstar.
He was probably better than Kobe last year but went unnoticed because the Lakers went to the finals. He is by far the best player in the league this year, MVP for sure.

Was watching the game last night against the Celtics and he was out of this world, he killed them, they could not handle him at all, every part of his game was incredible.

LeBron will probably be regarded as better than Kobe when the dust settles but it will be tough to match Jordan, he has the ability though.
The Cavs will be hard to beat this year, home record is very impressive and securing home court advantage goes a long way

I too watched that game, and LeBron was amazing but the little things that people miss when they are not there, I was not there myself, but you got to see one last night with LeBron pumping the crowd up, thats something extra he has, you don't see the elite players like him using the crowd like that too often. It shows his desire and competitiveness and also how down to earth the guy is that he thinks to use the crowd as an advantage.

Mikeyt086

Can LeBron win with the Cavs though?

He obviously wants to, but each year the Cavs fall short he has to be thinking as soon as he jumps to the Knicks he can get a ring.

eagle eye

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Can LeBron win with the Cavs though?

He obviously wants to, but each year the Cavs fall short he has to be thinking as soon as he jumps to the Knicks he can get a ring.

Well right now I can only see four teams winning the NBA Championship this season. In order of where I'd put them right now, and I'm a Celtics fan by the way.

1. Cleveland Cavaliers
2. Orlando Magic
3. Boston Celtics
4. LA Lakers

This order might well change as the season goes on but right now they are by far and away the best teams.
If LeBron does win it with the Cavs, then he is on his way to challenging MJ for certain. I really think they are going to do it this year. And remember the guy turned 24 just two weeks ago, he is so young.

Edit to add that while it seems with the way the Knicks cleaned shop that he might be going there, he actually made a point of telling the media that he is stongly thinking of committing to the Cavs again.

Carcharodon

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Can LeBron win with the Cavs though?

He obviously wants to, but each year the Cavs fall short he has to be thinking as soon as he jumps to the Knicks he can get a ring.

As Barack might say - Yes He Can !
I think he has every chance of winning with the Cavs, sure didn't he take them to the finals a couple of years ago. He is now a better and more experienced player.
He also has better players around him and players have finally started to pick up their game to try and match his level.
The Knicks are not exactly the best run franchise in the league when it comes to basketball

Enzo Scifo

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Can LeBron win with the Cavs though?

He obviously wants to, but each year the Cavs fall short he has to be thinking as soon as he jumps to the Knicks he can get a ring.

Cant see him being any better off at the Knicks than where he is today. Cavs are a good team and have the big men to support him (Ben Wallace, Ilgauskalas) but they wont win it all until they get a decent point guard. Le Bron is leading the assists with next best less than 4 a game? They need someone that gets them 10 a night full stop.



They play Lakers tonight, should be good.

eagle eye

Enzo Scifo wrote: »

They play Lakers tonight, should be good.

Watch the game last night, and I have to say Paul Gasol was superb. Lakes won it comfortably but at one stage the Cavs came with a rattle to get within seven after being down by big scores for long periods, but between Gasol who was immense and Fisher shooting threes the Lakers went away again for a comfortable. I was also impressed with Kobe who took a back seat and played team basketball for a change.

Kinetic^

Enzo Scifo wrote: »

Cant see him being any better off at the Knicks than where he is today. Cavs are a good team and have the big men to support him (Ben Wallace, Ilgauskalas) but they wont win it all until they get a decent point guard. Le Bron is leading the assists with next best less than 4 a game? They need someone that gets them 10 a night full stop.

I have to disagree. When you take the any of the past 10 championship teams, you can be pretty sure not 1 of them had a 10 assist player on their team. Not even the great Stockton got a ring and he could make scores even if he wasn't even on the court!

They got Wallace about 3/4 years too late imo, he's not as good as he used to be, let's not even comment on his scoring abilities. I would imagine he's on a nice contract so the sooner the better they offload him and get a centre that command on both ends of the court. Either that or a decent 4 man. I thought Varejao could've been that guy but after he pulled that **** about his contract a while back, it showed himself to be a retard and only out for himself rather then the team.

When you think about the Cavs, you think........leBron. When you think about previous winning teams you think Spurs (Ginobli, Parker, Duncan, Bowen, Horry), Pistons (Billups, Wallace, hamilton, Prince), Lakers (Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Harper, Horry (<this guy is the golden ticket btw ) Bulls (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, harper, Kukoc, Kerr). All of these teams have players who were exceptional in their role. When you look at the Cavs you just don't see that type of exceptional talent apart from LeBron. Team reconstruction is needed and the dead weight needs to be stripped, asap or LeBron will be gone.

Enzo Scifo

Kinetic^ wrote: »

I have to disagree. When you take the any of the past 10 championship teams, you can be pretty sure not 1 of them had a 10 assist player on their team. Not even the great Stockton got a ring and he could make scores even if he wasn't even on the court!
quote]

Your right, 10 is over stating it and they dont need a Kidd, Paul, Stockton, Haradway etc but Mo Williams is currently 47th in Asissts (behind every other team) and until they get someone who can give them more at the point guard spot they will not take the ring. Last night Lakers got 12 from Kobe and 5 from Fisher, Cavs had 17 in total. Cavs are still in a great position this year but will need to trade to get a better balance.

phil

I'd disagree strongly with your logic there.

Who was the PG with MJ through his championship years? How many assists were they averaging?

The ball goes through LeBrons hands more than other players, he ends up creating and scoring himself because that is what he is best at. Mo Williams is a solid PG and I think there's not much more that needs to be added to the Cavs for them to be a championship winning team.

LeBrons going for defensive player of the year as well as MVP IMHO as well right now. Incredible.

Carcharodon

Kinetic^ wrote: »

When you think about the Cavs, you think........leBron. When you think about previous winning teams you think Spurs (Ginobli, Parker, Duncan, Bowen, Horry), Pistons (Billups, Wallace, hamilton, Prince), Lakers (Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Harper, Horry (<this guy is the golden ticket btw ) Bulls (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, harper, Kukoc, Kerr). All of these teams have players who were exceptional in their role. When you look at the Cavs you just don't see that type of exceptional talent apart from LeBron. Team reconstruction is needed and the dead weight needs to be stripped, asap or LeBron will be gone.

I would have to slightly disagree, when you think Cavs obviously its LeBron but I would also think of Illgauskas, West, Williams, Wallace and Wally. These are very good players and certainly good enough to help LeBron win a championship.

If we put the same theory of LeBron to previous champs -
Spurs - Duncan. Obviously players like Genobli and Parker are quality but Duncan was the foundation of that team.
Pistons - Billups (Although I would not totally agree with this, brilliantly balanced team)
Lakers - Shaq, Shaq and Shaq (MVP in all of those wins)
Bulls - Jordan, Jordan, Jordan. He made decent players on that team into great players. What did those players do when they moved on in their careers, not much, all about Jordan !

eagle eye

Carcharodon wrote: »

I would have to slightly disagree, when you think Cavs obviously its LeBron but I would also think of Illgauskas, West, Williams, Wallace and Wally. These are very good players and certainly good enough to help LeBron win a championship.

If we put the same theory of LeBron to previous champs -
Spurs - Duncan. Obviously players like Genobli and Parker are quality but Duncan was the foundation of that team.
Pistons - Billups (Although I would not totally agree with this, brilliantly balanced team)
Lakers - Shaq, Shaq and Shaq (MVP in all of those wins)
Bulls - Jordan, Jordan, Jordan. He made decent players on that team into great players. What did those players do when they moved on in their careers, not much, all about Jordan !

I think you are both a bit off there in fairness. When the Spurs were winning them at the start of Tim Duncan's career it was the twin towers with himself and Robinson. Towards the end of Robinson's career when they won again they had Ginobli and Parker just becoming stars as well as a host of experienced older players.
Then came the big three period of Duncan, Parker and Ginobli.
The Bulls was Jordan and Pippen. Now we all know who the star was but Pippen was important and it was always Jordan and Pippen.
The Lakers was Shaq and Kobe. They would not have won it if they were without one of those two imo.
With the Celtics last season it was the big three, Pierce, Garnett and Allen. Although this year its the big four, although Rondo had a bad patch, it looks like he is back.
With the Pistons it was Billups and Hamilton, but I agree that was a really well balanced team of starters.
Thats the thing about LeBron, there is no name being mentioned alongside him right now.

Carcharodon

eagle eye wrote: »

I think you are both a bit off there in fairness. When the Spurs were winning them at the start of Tim Duncan's career it was the twin towers with himself and Robinson. Towards the end of Robinson's career when they won again they had Ginobli and Parker just becoming stars as well as a host of experienced older players.
Then came the big three period of Duncan, Parker and Ginobli.
The Bulls was Jordan and Pippen. Now we all know who the star was but Pippen was important and it was always Jordan and Pippen.
The Lakers was Shaq and Kobe. They would not have won it if they were without one of those two imo.
With the Celtics last season it was the big three, Pierce, Garnett and Allen. Although this year its the big four, although Rondo had a bad patch, it looks like he is back.
With the Pistons it was Billups and Hamilton, but I agree that was a really well balanced team of starters.
Thats the thing about LeBron, there is no name being mentioned alongside him right now.

Yea, I don't want to undervalue the other players on the teams mentioned but I feel in regards to the Spurs recent success, could be argued that Duncan is (one of) the greatest power forward ever to play. I think he was kind of unreplacable.

I honestly think you could of put any decent player in there with Jordan and they would of looked good, Pipen was excellent but I honestly believe Jordan made him and others look better than they were. When Pipen went to Houston and Portland, he was not the same player.

With the Lakers, I think Shaq was the most important factor, you just have to look at his record with Orlando and the Heat. I know had a quality player beside him but Shaq won you a championships. !!! I just think Kobe needed him more than he needed Kobe !

Its all about opinion really and what you say is correct but I just look at it a bit differently.
Getting back to LeBron, I just think he has a couple of quality players around him that could be looked back at in time as good as other players that played with the the Jordans and co.
They could probably do with one more maybe....

eagle eye

Carcharodon wrote: »

Yea, I don't want to undervalue the other players on the teams mentioned but I feel in regards to the Spurs recent success, could be argued that Duncan is (one of) the greatest power forward ever to play. I think he was kind of unreplacable.

I honestly think you could of put any decent player in there with Jordan and they would of looked good, Pipen was excellent but I honestly believe Jordan made him and others look better than they were. When Pipen went to Houston and Portland, he was not the same player.

With the Lakers, I think Shaq was the most important factor, you just have to look at his record with Orlando and the Heat. I know had a quality player beside him but Shaq won you a championships. !!! I just think Kobe needed him more than he needed Kobe !

Its all about opinion really and what you say is correct but I just look at it a bit differently.
Getting back to LeBron, I just think he has a couple of quality players around him that could be looked back at in time as good as other players that played with the the Jordans and co.
They could probably do with one more maybe....

Just on the Lakers thing, you say Shaq was the most important factor.

I disagree with this. I believe they were both equally crucial to the Lakers at that time. You have one of the greatest offensive weapons weapons in the NBA ever in Kobe and when he misses you have Shaq there to grab rebounds off him.
Without Kobe they would not have had nearly as much offensive threat allowing Shaq to be double teamed constantly. Without Shaq there Kobe would not have the room to shine as much. They were equally important imo.
On Pippen, you do know that he is one of only five players to lead his club in assists, scoring, rebounds, steals and blocks. That was in a season with the bulls without Jordan.
In fairness to him also when he moved on he was 34 and with the Rockets he had problems with Barkley or so it was rumoured during his one season there and his career was in decline anyways.

Carcharodon

eagle eye wrote: »

Just on the Lakers thing, you say Shaq was the most important factor.

I disagree with this. I believe they were both equally crucial to the Lakers at that time. You have one of the greatest offensive weapons weapons in the NBA ever in Kobe and when he misses you have Shaq there to grab rebounds off him.
Without Kobe they would not have had nearly as much offensive threat allowing Shaq to be double teamed constantly. Without Shaq there Kobe would not have the room to shine as much. They were equally important imo.
On Pippen, you do know that he is one of only five players to lead his club in assists, scoring, rebounds, steals and blocks. That was in a season with the bulls without Jordan.
In fairness to him also when he moved on he was 34 and with the Rockets he had problems with Barkley or so it was rumoured during his one season there and his career was in decline anyways.

I think we will have to agree to disagree, I don't think your wrong at all in what you say, I just have a slight difference in opinion. I just think Shaq was a more important factor, I am probably letting my hatred of Kobe cloud my judgment too to be honest but as Shaq said recently - "Kobe you aint won **** without me" or something like that.

On Pipen, yea I think it was the season after Jordan left he got those stats. I just think without Jordan, Pipen would probably not of become the player he was.

Back on Le Bron, the prick scored a last second shot to beat the Warriors last night, he played fairly well, they miss Illgauskas big time in my opinion, Wallace isn't up to much these days in all fairness.
Tough loss for the Warriors, Monte was back and all and played fairly well considering how long he was out for, would of been a good win.

Sea Devils

Regarding the Warriors we seemed to have suffered an ungodly amount of buzzer beater or one point losses this year. We look destined for the number 1 pick

And sticking with LeBron though I love watching him play he travels on about 30% of his drives don't know how the Refs aren't catching it.

Still a good game though.

kmart6

When they did call him for it there was nearly a war over it!