Conspiracy?

ionix5891

murphaph wrote: »

Just look at our own Bev Flynn laughing at us plebs while she takes her €40k allowance for being an independent until 2010 even though she's back in the FF fold. Can you not see we are all being laughed at by the political elite? Blind trust in our elected represetnatives to 'look after us' is unwise in the extreme.

politicians are corrupt, news at 11


why dont you go into politics then?

the moment you stop voting you hand a victory over to the people who would like democracy crushed

just look what happened in US over last 8 years, they need a series of disasters to get their act together and vote Obama in (tho we still have to see what he does)

murphaph

ionix5891 wrote: »

why dont you go into politics then?

Because I don't want to.

ionix5891 wrote: »

the moment you stop voting you hand a victory over to the people who would like democracy crushed

I vote in every election and referendum and always have done.

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote: »

I'll wait for the Guards and Army to come around and beat you up first.

Being as you're a Donegal man you should know that statement isn't too far from the truth.

Seanies32 wrote: »

Blind cynicism is just as bad.

I'm not blndly cynical. We lost a TD this week who was genuine to the core IMO. There's VERY FEW of his ilk in Dail Eireann and even fewer in Strasbourg and Brusels.

ionix5891

murphaph wrote: »

Because I don't want to.

so let me get this straight

you don't want a representative democracy, dont want to be involved in it

but you want direct democracy and listen in and vote on every single peace of legislation and decision that our elected officials deal with

right i can see that working out great

people complain about Lisbon being a complex document wait till they read your average proposed Law text

murphaph

ionix5891 wrote: »

you don't want a representative democracy

Where did I say that?

ionix5891 wrote: »

but you want direct democracy and listen in and vote on every single peace of legislation and decision that our elected officials deal with

Where did I say that?

You appear to have all the comprehension abilities of most of our politicians. Some pieces of legislation are so important to our national sovereignty that they should be put directly to the people. That's what the constitution says anyway. We should all remember that we once had a 'representative parliament' in College Green that also voted itself into oblivion for monetary reward. Remember the act of union, 1800? You believe our own collection of lads and lassies in Leinster House wouldn't do the same given enough financial incentive?

K-9

murphaph wrote: »

Being as you're a Donegal man you should know that statement isn't too far from the truth.

Too far? I'd say it's a mile off! Whatever they did had nothing to do with interfering in Representative Democracy, though maybe you know more than me?

murphaph wrote: »

Some pieces of legislation are so important to our national sovereignty that they should be put directly to the people. That's what the constitution says anyway. We should all remember that we once had a 'representative parliament' in College Green that also voted itself into oblivion for monetary reward. Remember the act of union, 1800? You believe our own collection of lads and lassies in Leinster House wouldn't do the same given enough financial incentive?

Maybe, how would they go about doing that exactly ?

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote: »

Maybe, how would they go about doing that exactly ?

Well if our constitution didn't protect us from them they'd ratify anything they wanted....like Labour is doing in Britain, despite the people clearly being against Lisbon. Mandelson is back in the fold for a reason.....he's a European 'company man'. Our own gimps would easily be bought off in a european context, considering how easily so many of them were and are bought off by grubby small time developers wanting land rezoned etc.

djpbarry

murphaph wrote: »

It's quite clear there are nations in the EU who do not want any further integration with the EU. Our nearest neighbour is the best example yet their so called REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY is going to ratify Lisbon.

Our nearest neighbour is the best example of what?

I’m somewhat sceptical of this supposed opposition to Lisbon in the UK. I spend a good deal of time in Birmingham, Glasgow and London, and most of my British friends have little or no knowledge of the Lisbon treaty, let alone an opinion on it.

murphaph wrote: »

Just look at our own Bev Flynn laughing at us plebs while she takes her €40k allowance for being an independent until 2010 even though she's back in the FF fold. Can you not see we are all being laughed at by the political elite? Blind trust in our elected represetnatives to 'look after us' is unwise in the extreme.

Yet you advocate giving these same representatives more power by curtailing EU involvement in Irish affairs. I ask you, where is the sense in that position?

murphaph wrote: »

Remember the act of union, 1800? You believe our own collection of lads and lassies in Leinster House wouldn't do the same given enough financial incentive?

:rolleyes:

You’re not comparing the Lisbon treaty to the Act of Union, are you?

ionix5891

djpbarry wrote: »

You’re not comparing the Lisbon treaty to the Act of Union, are you?

Lisbon Treaty has a "get out of EU" clause :P

djpbarry wrote: »

Our nearest neighbour is the best example of what?

I’m somewhat sceptical of this supposed opposition to Lisbon in the UK.

the only opposition is from Ruppert Murdoch's newspapers (the guy is afraid of EU) and the nutjobs in the BNP

murphaph

It is absolutely valid to compare Lisbon (and of course the EU treaties that went before it) to the Act of Union. Both sought and seek to take power from the elected representatives in Dublin and shift it to elected representatives abroad. The EU is a slow train but it is moving lads. There is growing impatience among certain elements in the EU to speed up the process and they can barely conceal their contempt for us for throwing a spanner in the works.

The local politicians were bought off in the run up to passing the act which ended parliamentary governance in Ireland for irish people. The same can happen again quite easily.

ionix5891

murphaph wrote: »

It is absolutely valid to compare Lisbon (and of course the EU treaties that went before it) to the Act of Union. Both sought and seek to take power from the elected representatives in Dublin and shift it to elected representatives abroad. The EU is a slow train but it is moving lads. There is growing impatience among certain elements in the EU to speed up the process and they can barely conceal their contempt for us for throwing a spanner in the works.

The local politicians were bought off in the run up to passing the act which ended parliamentary governance in Ireland for irish people. The same can happen again quite easily.

can you please point to the parts of Lisbon Treaty that "take power from the elected representatives in Dublin and shift it to elected representatives abroad."

murphaph

ionix5891 wrote: »

can you please point to the parts of Lisbon Treaty that "take power from the elected representatives in Dublin and shift it to elected representatives abroad."

I knew full well you would ask this (which is why I mentioned Lisbon as one treaty among many). Do you deny that the cumulative effect of the successive treaties we have signed do in fact transfer powers to the European commission?

You are looking at each little treaty in total isolation.....exactly what the plan was from day one. A gradual, step by step way to a single Europe. It could not be achieved through warfare (several attempts) as it was simply too obvious and the motives couldn't be hidden from the people.

Scofflaw

murphaph wrote:

It is absolutely valid to compare Lisbon (and of course the EU treaties that went before it) to the Act of Union. Both sought and seek to take power from the elected representatives in Dublin and shift it to elected representatives abroad. The EU is a slow train but it is moving lads. There is growing impatience among certain elements in the EU to speed up the process and they can barely conceal their contempt for us for throwing a spanner in the works.

The local politicians were bought off in the run up to passing the act which ended parliamentary governance in Ireland for irish people. The same can happen again quite easily.

This is the kind of thing that makes it hard to take a lot of No "campaign issues" seriously.

murphaph wrote:

I knew full well you would ask this (which is why I mentioned Lisbon as one treaty among many). Do you deny that the cumulative effect of the successive treaties we have signed do in fact transfer powers to the European commission?

You are looking at each little treaty in total isolation.....exactly what the plan was from day one. A gradual, step by step way to a single Europe. It could not be achieved through warfare (several attempts) as it was simply too obvious and the motives couldn't be hidden from the people.

Ah yes - it'll be the Protocols of the Elders of the EU next. Sure Hitler invented the EU, it's all part of the NWO, there's fluoride in the water to keep us from guessing and then it'll be the North American Union and the amero.

See above. We really do need a new version of Godwin for the Act of 1800 and Mugabe.

ah well,
Scofflaw

djpbarry

murphaph wrote: »

Do you deny that the cumulative effect of the successive treaties we have signed do in fact transfer powers to the European commission?

No - the commission is powerless to do anything without the approval of the council and the parliament.

Your attempt to paint the EU as some sort of Mugabe-run Reich-in-the-making is laughable in the extreme.

humanji

Scofflaw wrote: »

See above. We really do need a new version of Godwin for the Act of 1800 and Mugabe.

Scoff's Law?

Nostradamus

Scofflaw wrote: »

Ah yes - it'll be the Protocols of the Elders of the EU next. Sure Hitler invented the EU, it's all part of the NWO, there's fluoride in the water to keep us from guessing and then it'll be the North American Union and the amero.

See above. We really do need a new version of Godwin for the Act of 1800 and Mugabe.

ah well,
Scofflaw

Whatever about your highly offensive attempts to portray anyone who questions the EU's anti-democratic nature as being anti-semitic, the NWO stuff is real. Just today that genocidal psychopath Kissenger was demanding it again and called it the "New World Order" using that precise term - this follows Gordon Brown's speech using the same language in India recently. The international banking cartels have been after this for almost 100 years now and the EU is a major stepping stone towards this aganda. Hint: it's not being done for your benefit.

Secondly, Flouride is a highly toxic industrial waste product which was used by the Soviets and Nazis to keep gulag and death camp inmates docile. It is the main compenent in Rat Poison and that crap has no buisiness being in our drinking water regardless.

Keep it up, your smug condesension is doing wonders for ensuring another NO vote to the next Lisbon Treaty. Just don't come crying to the rest of us in 10 years time when you are "living" in a cashless society and all your money is kept in the RFID chip implanted into your arm and they cut your credit off, or refuse you cancer treatment because it detected nicotine or some other risk factor in your blood. Wake up and stop being so smug. Becuase this is were your beloved EU is taking us towards.

But if you expect none of this will happen because FF/FG etc will fight ("concessions":rolleyes:) for the Irish people, then frankly you deserve no less for being so gullible. Just don't take the rest of us and future generations of Irish people with you. Thanks.

Nostradamus

murphaph wrote: »

It is absolutely valid to compare Lisbon (and of course the EU treaties that went before it) to the Act of Union. Both sought and seek to take power from the elected representatives in Dublin and shift it to elected representatives abroad. The EU is a slow train but it is moving lads. There is growing impatience among certain elements in the EU to speed up the process and they can barely conceal their contempt for us for throwing a spanner in the works.

The local politicians were bought off in the run up to passing the act which ended parliamentary governance in Ireland for irish people. The same can happen again quite easily.

Spot on. The bizarre faith some posters on this thread have in Irish stroke-gombeen politicans doing the right thing by the Irish People in the EU would be comical if it were not so depressing.

All the EU is to our politicians is a bigger brown envelope.

evercloserunion

Nostradamus wrote: »

Whatever about your highly offensive attempts to portray anyone who questions the EU's anti-democratic nature as being anti-semitic, the NWO stuff is real. Just today that genocidal psychopath Kissenger was demanding it again and called it the "New World Order" using that precise term - this follows Gordon Brown's speech using the same language in India recently. The international banking cartels have been after this for almost 100 years now and the EU is a major stepping stone towards this aganda. Hint: it's not being done for your benefit.

Secondly, Flouride is a highly toxic industrial waste product which was used by the Soviets and Nazis to keep gulag and death camp inmates docile. It is the main compenent in Rat Poison and that crap has no buisiness being in our drinking water regardless.

Keep it up, your smug condesension is doing wonders for ensuring another NO vote to the next Lisbon Treaty. Just don't come crying to the rest of us in 10 years time when you are "living" in a cashless society and all your money is kept in the RFID chip implanted into your arm and they cut your credit off, or refuse you cancer treatment because it detected nicotine or some other risk factor in your blood. Wake up and stop being so smug. Becuase this is were your beloved EU is taking us towards.

But if you expect none of this will happen because FF/FG etc will fight ("concessions":rolleyes:) for the Irish people, then frankly you deserve no less for being so gullible. Just don't take the rest of us and future generations of Irish people with you. Thanks.

Jesus Christ what a loon!

Scofflaw

Nostradamus wrote: »

Whatever about your highly offensive attempts to portray anyone who questions the EU's anti-democratic nature as being anti-semitic, the NWO stuff is real. Just today that genocidal psychopath Kissenger was demanding it again and called it the "New World Order" using that precise term - this follows Gordon Brown's speech using the same language in India recently. The international banking cartels have been after this for almost 100 years now and the EU is a major stepping stone towards this aganda. Hint: it's not being done for your benefit.

Secondly, Flouride is a highly toxic industrial waste product which was used by the Soviets and Nazis to keep gulag and death camp inmates docile. It is the main compenent in Rat Poison and that crap has no buisiness being in our drinking water regardless.

Keep it up, your smug condesension is doing wonders for ensuring another NO vote to the next Lisbon Treaty. Just don't come crying to the rest of us in 10 years time when you are "living" in a cashless society and all your money is kept in the RFID chip implanted into your arm and they cut your credit off, or refuse you cancer treatment because it detected nicotine or some other risk factor in your blood. Wake up and stop being so smug. Becuase this is were your beloved EU is taking us towards.

But if you expect none of this will happen because FF/FG etc will fight ("concessions":rolleyes:) for the Irish people, then frankly you deserve no less for being so gullible. Just don't take the rest of us and future generations of Irish people with you. Thanks.

In the real world, our politicians aren't altruistic statesmen fighting for the Irish people - but they're not hapless gombeens rushing towards a totalitarian world superstate created by Machiavellian international bankers either. Real life is a lot muddier and uncertain than comics, and both those things are tendencies rather than alternative explanations, I'm afraid.

It might also be worth considering the difference between the definite and indefinite articles - 'a new world' order versus 'the New World Order'. The Renaissance was a new world order too, even if it did pass some people by.

cordially,
Scofflaw

evercloserunion

Scoff, exactly why would you even engage that.

studiorat

nostradamaus?

somthing vaguely familiar going on here? :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

evercloserunion wrote: »

Scoff, exactly why would you even engage that.

Well, some would say because I can't bear to miss an opportunity to be supercilious...but, also, at the end of the day, it's a point of view, and a common one online.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ionix5891

Nostradamus wrote: »

Just don't come crying to the rest of us in 10 years time when you are "living" in a cashless society and all your money is kept in the RFID chip implanted into your arm and they cut your credit off,.

I was involved in a research project examining RFID technologies

and guess what? its utter rubbish, it just doesn't work well or reliably (the passive rfid) i held a tag 3cm from reader and it didn't work, not to mention bodies, fluids etc effectively block the signal

active rfid on other hand works well but it needs a power source in shape of battery, hence these tags are expensive (20euro pop) and are large size of 10s cigarette box

so get of your conspiracy high chair and stop smoking dope, get your freaking facts straight by looking up science documents, instead of watching crap like Zeitgeist

evercloserunion

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, some would say because I can't bear to miss an opportunity to be supercilious...but, also, at the end of the day, it's a point of view, and a common one online.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Is it a common one online? The EU putting chips in our arms in 10 years time?

Ciaran500

evercloserunion wrote: »

Is it a common one online? The EU putting chips in our arms in 10 years time?

Very common with some people calling the mark of the beast talked about in the bible.

Scofflaw

evercloserunion wrote: »

Is it a common one online? The EU putting chips in our arms in 10 years time?

Very much so. There's a whole alternative narrative of the EU, which Nostradamus has roughly outlined. It's quite a common viewpoint amongst English eurosceptics - the EU is an attempt to do by stealth what the Germans failed to accomplish under Hitler, but this time they're doing it with the connivance of the French.

If you think about it, this is the narrative spring from which most euroscepticism is sourced. New World Order conspiracy theorists like Nostradamus associate it with a continuing Illuminati-style attempt to institute autocratic world government per Brave New World, with the sheeple kept drugged and mindless (by fluoride in the water, from the looks of Nostradamus' post). English eurosceptics, on the other hand, see it as a Franco-German conspiracy against them (why not, after all - those three are old dancing partners?). Irish eurosceptics, in turn, tend to add in the UK to form the unholy triumvirate of "the big states", but are otherwise largely derivative from English euroscepticism.

As a mindset, it possibly relates to feeling powerless in your own life, and preferring to ascribe that to sinister outside forces rather than realising you need to get up off your butt and do something. In turn, the lack of getting up off your butt and doing something concrete often leads to an excess of online time - although I say it as perhaps shouldn't...

cordially,
Scofflaw

CtrlSource

Oh, this looks interesting! Looking forward to catching up later on this thread when my eyes stop hurting from staring at this screen all day! Sheesh, you leave something for a few days and...

dresden8

Scofflaw wrote: »

As a mindset, it possibly relates to feeling powerless in your own life, and preferring to ascribe that to sinister outside forces

Agreed Scofflaw.

These are probably the type of people who think that politicians bankers and developers have been stitching up the country for years and creaming a shed load of money off the top.

They also probably believe that the politicians are going to throw billions of taxpayers money at their banking and builder buddies.

Tinfoil hat wearing nut-jobs.

djpbarry

dresden8 wrote: »

These are probably the type of people who think that politicians bankers and developers have been stitching up the country for years and creaming a shed load of money off the top.

They also probably believe that the politicians are going to throw billions of taxpayers money at their banking and builder buddies.

If only there was some way in which the people could "elect" the politicians who represent them...

dresden8

djpbarry wrote: »

If only there was some way in which the people could "elect" the politicians who represent them...

Indeed. If only more people were conspiracy theory loons instead of gombeen fanboys. (And girls)

It's those idiots who trust their politicians that get the rest of us cynical conspiracy theorists in the deep deep doo-doo. Never trust anyone in power is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

Ah well, back to stocking up on tinned food for me!