[Letter] Railway line 'upgrade'

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2008/1223/1229728473170.html

Railway line 'upgrade'


Madam, - As a regular cyclist, I am chuffed to see the term "upgrade" applied to the conversion of a railway line to a cycling route, in your report of December 16th on the Limerick-Kerry line. - Yours, etc,

FRANK FARRELL,

Lakelands Close,

Stillorgan.

Cookie_Monster

Presumably this is referring to some closed railway that they are opening as a cycle track?

Upgraded from obsolete to functional:)

dowlingm

The problem is that when it's "upgraded" it might be very difficult to "downgrade" it again if needed (see Cork-Passage West)

lostexpectation

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/104251005cp.shtml
anymore info


ah here it is
http://www.southerntrail.net/

CIE

I wouldn't call a railway converted to a bike path any sort of "functionality", unless of course dumping more taxpayers' monies into it is desirable? Never mind the kind of crime bike paths attract. I'd rather see the Limerick-Tralee line rebuilt for trains. Now that would be functionality.

Victor

CIE wrote: »

I wouldn't call a railway converted to a bike path any sort of "functionality", unless of course dumping more taxpayers' monies into it is desirable?

Actually we suffer froma dearth of medium to long distance cycle and walking paths. Such facilities do attact tourists, many of whom will spend more, especially in local areas, than coach or similar tourists.

Never mind the kind of crime bike paths attract.

Pray tell?

I'd rather see the Limerick-Tralee line rebuilt for trains.

Can I see your cost-benefit analysis?

CIE

Victor wrote: »

Actually we suffer froma dearth of medium to long distance cycle and walking paths. Such facilities do attact tourists, many of whom will spend more, especially in local areas, than coach or similar tourists

Sounds like speculation to me, WADR. It may be the case that cycle tourists may spend more time in a certain area; but my beef is with making these paths out of old railways, whose alignment is generally segregated from roadways, and whose alignment engineering (which allows for more rapid transportation of passengers than by road including more passengers per vehicle than by road, as well as lower gradients for the ability to move greater volumes of freight than several HGVs can ever dream of) is going to waste.

Now perhaps it may be better to build new bike paths alongside existing roadways, for safety as well as other reasons; the "reasoning" behind converting railway beds to bike paths is (possibly?) due to the low gradients, but to be frank, that's no challenge for cyclists.

Pray tell?

Well, this is what I found on a Google search. I'm sure that there are others that can be found only via anecdote. Remember that the isolation of railway-based bike paths makes it very difficult for emergency personnel to come to the assistance of such victims, whether guards, ambulance or other.

Can I see your cost-benefit analysis?

CBAs can be skewed to say whatever a politician or consultant wants them to say. But since you bring it up, what did the CBA for the bike path say, if any exists?

(To be railway-specific, note that the so-called "Strategic Railway Review" recommended removing the relatively-new DART electrification between Bray and Greystones, for example, so when you play with the "lies, damned lies and statistics" that make up a CBA, you can come up with stuff like that, which plainly makes no sense whatsoever.)

A Dub in Glasgo

The Airdrie to Bathgate line here in Scotland was closed in the 1982 and converted to a walking/cycle track. It is now going to be reinstated to provide another railway connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh. The walking/cycle track is going to be reinstated as well.

http://www.airdriebathgateraillink.co.uk/cyclepath/

If you recently caught any of the BBC 'Railway Walks' programmes, you will see the huge benefit of converting old track bed to walking/cycle routes. There should be a clause that the path can revert back to the railway if ever it were needed. In Britain, the National Cycle Routes rely on the huge amount of old redundant railway alignments that are perfect for walking/cycling.

Victor

CIE wrote: »

Sounds like speculation to me, WADR. It may be the case that cycle tourists may spend more time in a certain area; but my beef is with making these paths out of old railways, whose alignment is generally segregated from roadways, and whose alignment engineering (which allows for more rapid transportation of passengers than by road including more passengers per vehicle than by road, as well as lower gradients for the ability to move greater volumes of freight than several HGVs can ever dream of) is going to waste.

Sure, we'd all love more railways, but there is no need to burden Irish Rail with more railways that serve places already served - west Limerick and North East Kerry are hardlt densely populated.

Now perhaps it may be better to build new bike paths alongside existing roadways, for safety as well as other reasons; the "reasoning" behind converting railway beds to bike paths is (possibly?) due to the low gradients, but to be frank, that's no challenge for cyclists.

People aren't looking for Alp D'Huez - they are looking for open countryside and scenery.

Well, this is what I found on a Google search. I'm sure that there are others that can be found only via anecdote.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=assault+%22cyclepath%22&btnG=Search and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=assault+%22cycle+path%22&btnG=Search return about 5,000 results instead of you 138,000 results.

Remember that the isolation of railway-based bike paths makes it very difficult for emergency personnel to come to the assistance of such victims, whether guards, ambulance or other.

If the path is surfaced for a width of 1.80-2.00m most small-medium vehicles should be able to use it. Just put a demountable bollard with a fire brigade key at the entraces.

CBAs can be skewed to say whatever a politician or consultant wants them to say.

Sure, but there are rules for CBAs, they can be slanted, but they are more accurate that a binary Yes/No decision process.

But since you bring it up, what did the CBA for the bike path say, if any exists?

I don't know. I'm not sure if we are at this stage yet.

(To be railway-specific, note that the so-called "Strategic Railway Review" recommended removing the relatively-new DART electrification between Bray and Greystones, for example, so when you play with the "lies, damned lies and statistics" that make up a CBA, you can come up with stuff like that, which plainly makes no sense whatsoever.)

As I understand it, that section suffers badly from sea corrosion - there were regular closure over the last few months. There is the opinion that Greystones would be better served with a shuttle to Bray, so as to simplify DART schedules and movements.

To be honest, A Dub in Glasgo is right. It is much better for the right of way to be retained in state ownership (perhaps by the local councils, rather than CIÉ). I imagine its much more useful in this fashion rather than selling it off piecemeal at a low price to adjacent landowners. Or worse, those landowners taking adverse possession.

So when do CIÉs rights expire?

HonalD

CIE wrote: »

CBAs can be skewed to say whatever a politician or consultant wants them to say.....so when you play with the "lies, damned lies and statistics" that make up a CBA, you can come up with stuff like that, which plainly makes no sense whatsoever.)

I totally disagree - should we use "wet finger analysis" instead? There are parameters etc. used in CBA analysis for different types of projects. But CBAs are only one part of the analysis - you are verging on the truth if we believe everything that people tell us......................but in terms of the "greater good" one more cycle/foot track is positive news!

CIE

Victor wrote: »

Sure, we'd all love more railways, but there is no need to burden Irish Rail with more railways that serve places already served - west Limerick and North East Kerry are hardl(y) densely populated

That's a commuter rail argument. Intercity rail does not base its viability on the middle of the line, but the end points. But since you bring it up, how high does population density have to go to justify a railway service? Listowel's combined urban and rural districts yields a population of close to 23,000. Other countries send high-speed trains to places with half the population. Besides, the distance between the two end points is looking for a railway option (66 miles; a journey time of an hour is possible, if the trains were operated rapidly enough, which is what the rather-heavy 22000-class DMU was promising; and IINM, the railway line is actually shorter than the road alignment).

People aren't looking for Alp D'Huez - they are looking for open countryside and scenery

How would a railway bed provide that? There would have to be frequent maintenance so that the rail bed is kept clear from brambles, hawthorns, and other growth that borders such alignments. (More money; now if you charged admission to the cycle trail, you'd be able to raise it, as well as for maintenance of the trail itself, and possibly a permanent security/emergency detail.)

This search and this search return about 5,000 results instead of you 138,000 results

That's because you're narrowing the parameters by restricting the keywords. Besides, 5,000 is 5,000 too many; how many more thousands does it have the potential to be over the years? and what's the social cost of all this, besides? (Consider what could happen in five seconds: never mind the injuries, but the bike's gone, the wallet's gone, and the mobile phone to summon help would also be gone, and if you are left unable to walk, you're dependent on waiting for the next stranger to come across you to get help.)

If the path is surfaced for a width of 1.80-2.00m most small-medium vehicles should be able to use it. Just put a demountable bollard with a fire brigade key at the entraces

It's not the bare fact of vehicles being able to use it; it's the matter of access to the route, and you already stipulated "entrances", whereas alongside the roadway, you won't be so restricted in terms of access points, nor would you be knocking cyclists out of the way trying to get to an injured party, not necessarily a victim of assault, but possibly suffering from ailments such as heart disease (infarction), stroke, epileptic seizure, severe asthma attack, or what have you.

(What if you need to get an 7' 6"-foot wide ambulance down this 6' 6" path? or a fire-fighting lorry that is over 8 feet in width? Speed is essential in emergencies, and you don't want to create casualties en route to a casualty, so to speak.)

Sure, but there are rules for CBAs, they can be slanted, but they are more accurate that a binary Yes/No decision process

I wish we could be certain of that. There's no real oversight when it comes to CBA determination, so the question of "whose rules" is begged (a case of "who watches the watchers"). One set of consultants can say one thing, and another studying the same thing can say the complete opposite. Far too unwieldy, and perhaps as unwieldy as the political process(es) that call such analysis into being. (When the motivation for consultants is money only, I'm always wary of it.)

I don't know. I'm not sure if we are at this stage yet.

Well, I'm sure that it'll be available somewhere. It doesn't appear to be on the southern trail web site.

As I understand it, that section suffers badly from sea corrosion - there were regular closure over the last few months. There is the opinion that Greystones would be better served with a shuttle to Bray, so as to simplify DART schedules and movements

That speaks to the bizarre patterns of investment in the railways (or lack thereof) by the government; if they wanted to electrify all the way to Wicklow, Wexford or Rosslare, then they would have insured better mitigation of corrosion. It's not impossible; this is the 21st century, after all. (I hate to think of the obscene amount the government would come up with for a more inland re-route of Bray-Greystones, never mind their half-hearted job on the existing route through the tunnels.)

To be honest, A Dub in Glasgo is right. It is much better for the right of way to be retained in state ownership (perhaps by the local councils, rather than CIÉ). I imagine its much more useful in this fashion rather than selling it off piecemeal at a low price to adjacent landowners. Or worse, those landowners taking adverse possession.

So when do CIÉs rights expire?

I understand where you're coming from here. When you have payouts of close to €2 million per acre for buying back railway alignments from local owners (look at how much they're paying for the former MGWR between Clonsilla and Pace), things have gotten out of control. But that also raises the question as to whether or not the NRA would re-release a cycle path to IE (if it's the NRA that controls such paths, that is). Coras Iompar Eireann is complicit in these conversions of railway to bike path, and I'm wary as to whether or not their intentions are different from the example cited in Scotland (Airdrie-Bathgate), especially since the move to reduce rail freight (which is profitable) by 40 percent was so deliberate, and appears to be a move pandering to the trucking lobbies.

HonalD wrote:

should we use "wet finger analysis" instead? There are parameters etc. used in CBA analysis for different types of projects

What manner of parameters are we speaking of?

HonalD

CIE wrote: »

What manner of parameters are we speaking of?

If you have to ask, then don't comment any further on CBAs........:rolleyes:

Zoney

Victor wrote: »

Sure, we'd all love more railways, but there is no need to burden Irish Rail with more railways that serve places already served - west Limerick and North East Kerry are hardlt densely populated.

You do realise that the N21 through Adare currently has traffic levels that would require dual carriageway under the NRA's defined capacities for various road types. The N20 between Patrickswell and Mallow on the other hand, is well below the capacity for single carriageway (admittedly the shocking state of the road is probably partially to blame for this, and the obstacle to trade is probably partially responsible for less commerce, fewer jobs and less people staying in the area).

I doubt a Limerick-Tralee line would be exceptionally heavily patronised, but it would probably compare favorably with the quieter parts of our existing network, or indeed rural regional railway lines in Europe. However, it not being open already is a serious obstacle. There wouldn't be much point opening it without a deliberate plan to develop North Kerry and West Limerick, probably revolving around much more carefully planned development of Tralee and Limerick city (the latter of which hasn't a hope as long as the city "management" is divided almost 50/50 between city and county).