Aston Villa vs Arsenal the battle for 4th

A Primal Nut

mormank wrote: »

isnt there a guy of the same name who never played for arsenal but plays for barca?? strange coincidence that one...:rolleyes:

He played for Beveren, Arsenal's feeder club which is pretty much the same thing - he played there for two years like many others so he could get an EU nationality and not need a work permit in order to play for Arsenal. In reality, he was an Arsenal player on loan to Beveren. I thought I remembered he had also been a youth player at Arsenal but according to Wikipedia he only had a pre-season trial and first option but Arsene Wenger refused it. I had forgotten all about him till suddenly he turned up at Barcelona a couple of years later. Now they are looking at paying big money for him. Wenger's eye for a good player is not as strong as it was.

Villain

The big 4 is a Sky Sports invention, the thing that counts is the League table come the end of the season, last year Arsenal were looking like Champions but its not a sprint.

I said at the start of the season I'd be delighted with 5th and I still would be, we might have spent a lot of money but we're building from the smallest squad last year, step by step .

jesus_thats_gre

DSB wrote: »

Since the 4 places were allocated to the Premiership, when exactly have Liverpool challenged for the title? Except this year, of course, when they are obviously up there.

Crisis. Talk about having a major chip on your shoulder.. What difference does it even make?

invincibleirish

A Primal Nut wrote: »

What are you talking about? Its clear who the top 4 teams have been for the last few years.

The top 4 is significant because they are the champions league places and these have been dominated by the same teams for the last three seasons. Obviously this is why people talk about teams breaking into the top 4! These same 4 teams have variously challenged for the premier league over that period. The team who finished 5th isn't as relevant; ok they can finish in the uefa cup spot but the rewards for uefa cup are insignificant compared with the champions league and in addition various different sides have occupied this spot.

If the champions league places were expanded people would start talking about a top 5. The reason this is important is because champions league leads to more money, makes it possible to attract world class players, bigger reputation, fanbase etc., which in turn makes it easier to compete for bigger honours in the future. Its no surprise that its these teams that have generally competed for the league - liverpool and chelsea this season, united, arsenal, chelsea last season, united and chelsea previous season. Arsenal went two seasons in a row without being competitive but came back in a big way last season. As long as a team is finishing in the top 4 they will always be contenders for honours - thats why breaking into the top 4 is such an immediate aim for the likes of Man City, Aston Villa, etc, but so far nobody has managed to break in.

In otherwords success breeds success? the genesis of your rather long point is correct, that the CL is where is at, but being top 4 doesnt make you Prem champion material, Pool/Newc/Everton & Leeds fans will tell you that.

Villain

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Crisis. Talk about having a major chip on your shoulder.. What difference does it even make?

Where's this crisis you keep talking about?

RasTa

What did Wegner say after the match?

Royale with Cheese

As little as possible

jesus_thats_gre

Villain wrote: »

Where's this crisis you keep talking about?

The defensive nature of some of the posts on this thread in response to perfectly reasonable posts by myself are hilarious. Crisis, crikey, lol, haha and whatever are all reasonable responses.

DSB

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The defensive nature of some of the posts on this thread in response to perfectly reasonable posts by myself are hilarious. Crisis, crikey, lol, haha and whatever are all reasonable responses.

........lol?

A Primal Nut

DSB wrote: »

Since the 4 places were allocated to the Premiership, when exactly have Liverpool challenged for the title? Except this year, of course, when they are obviously up there.

Well, i was thinking of season - a team who is in the top 4 is going to have a better change of challenging for the league in the future, as has happened. They also have two Champions League final appearances in the last four seasons, which is quite impressive for any team.

Either way, the top 4 has nothing to do with challenging for the league in the short term from the point of view of Villa and City, for example. Its all about getting into the champions league. That's why they are called the big four and the same teams have had a monopoly on those places for three seasons, and have been a long way ahead of everybody else. Yes, for a couple of seasons Chelsea and United were a long way ahead of everyone else so there was a "big two" however thats just called challenging for the title.

All I'm trying to do is justify usage of the term "big 4" its a massive step for a team to go from 5th place to 4th place due to the rewards and the unlikeliness of it happening; going from 4th to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd isn't as big a deal in terms of rewards, although obviously finishing first or at least mounting a serious challenge is, which is why a big deal was made of Arsenal's return to form last season.

Villain

Jesus_thats_gre if you don't like the responses ignore them, I still don't see a crisis?

So anyone know who got MOM?

Quazzie

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The defensive nature of some of the posts on this thread in response to perfectly reasonable posts by myself are hilarious. Crisis, crikey, lol, haha and whatever are all reasonable responses.

I'm confused though.. why have you repeatedly said crisis. Apart from trolling I can't think of a reason!

Frankie Lee

DSB wrote: »

I'm not writing them off because of their current league position as such, I'm writing them off because they are pretty poor. You'd need some massive collapse from both Villa and Arsenal for anything to happen. Villa and Everton were at about the same level last year, Villa have moved on in strides. Everton are still at that level, and will probably get 6th.

Fair enough that is your opinion, mine is that Everton are a very solid consistent side and if injuries don't hit them too badly will be close enough to 4th come the end of the season.

I would love to see Villa finish 4th though.

jesus_thats_gre

DSB wrote: »

........lol?

Fancy addressing some of the points I made or even go as far as point out the specific posts that you have an issue with? What about clarifying the glory hunter accusation?

Nah? Didn't think so!

DSB

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Fancy addressing some of the points I made or even go as far as point out the specific posts that you have an issue with? What about clarifying the glory hunter accusation?

Nah? Didn't think so!

Why the hell would I clarify an accusation I didn't make?

Villain

Villa get a draw against Arsenal and we end up with a Liverpool fan asking all the questions??

Still get can't get over MON keeping Barry at Villa?

invincibleirish

RasTa wrote: »

What did Wegner say after the match?

'no' 'no' & 'no'

A Primal Nut

invincibleirish wrote: »

In otherwords success breeds success? the genesis of your rather long point is correct, that the CL is where is at, but being top 4 doesnt make you Prem champion material, Pool/Newc/Everton & Leeds fans will tell you that.

Ok, but I don't think any Villa fan wants to break into the top 4 coz they think that means they are premiership contenders, however its a step in the right direction and if they managed to cement their place in the top 4 over a period of time then you'd imagine they'll eventually make a challenge. Finish 5th for a couple of seasons and your still pretty much going to find it difficult to suddenly mount a challenge. I don't think anyone expects Villa to up there challenging for the title at the end of the season.

Quazzie

invincibleirish wrote: »

'no' 'no' & 'no'

What did the interviwer say?

DSB

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Well, i was thinking of season - a team who is in the top 4 is going to have a better change of challenging for the league in the future, as has happened. They also have two Champions League final appearances in the last four seasons, which is quite impressive for any team.

Either way, the top 4 has nothing to do with challenging for the league in the short term from the point of view of Villa and City, for example. Its all about getting into the champions league. That's why they are called the big four and the same teams have had a monopoly on those places for three seasons, and have been a long way ahead of everybody else. Yes, for a couple of seasons Chelsea and United were a long way ahead of everyone else so there was a "big two" however thats just called challenging for the title.

All I'm trying to do is justify usage of the term "big 4" its a massive step for a team to go from 5th place to 4th place due to the rewards and the unlikeliness of it happening; going from 4th to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd isn't as big a deal in terms of rewards, although obviously finishing first or at least mounting a serious challenge is, which is why a big deal was made of Arsenal's return to form last season.

Of course, but what you're missing is, the argument I was debating was someone implying that if Villa got 4th they still wouldn't be part of the big 4, which is ridiculous. If Villa make the Champions League this season, and actually qualify unlike Everton, then you'd imagine that this is everything changed permanently, and City might just do the same. All I'm pointing out is that these top 4 positions are no longer set in stone, and the top 4 is far from an immovable object. The 'top 4' put simply is, the teams who finish in the top 4 in the league.

DSB

Oh and RE: Jesus_I'm_gre: The reason you're getting such hostility in here would have alot to do with that little smug post you made when Villa were 2-0 down.

invincibleirish

Q2002 wrote: »

What did the interviwer say?

iirc the interviewer questioned him on the MON incident, and a few other Qs on the game, all replied to by Wenger in a very short sharp manner. He wasn't very happy.

A Primal Nut

DSB wrote: »

Of course, but what you're missing is, the argument I was debating was someone implying that if Villa got 4th they still wouldn't be part of the big 4, which is ridiculous. If Villa make the Champions League this season, and actually qualify unlike Everton, then you'd imagine that this is everything changed permanently, and City might just do the same. All I'm pointing out is that these top 4 positions are no longer set in stone, and the top 4 is far from an immovable object. The 'top 4' put simply is, the teams who finish in the top 4 in the league.

Ah ok thats fair enough.

From Arsenal's point of view all depends on their ability to hold on the quality of some of their key youngsters, as its clear they are not going to buy their way out of Villa's challenge. If Vela, Wilkshire, Ramsey and Merida fulfill their potential and they hold onto the likes of Fabregas, then the future should be bright. Otherwise, we're ****ed and we could be out of the top 4 permanently.:eek:

To be fair, and I hate complaining about injuries as they generally balance themselves out, plus we shoot ourselves in the foot with a relatively small squad compared to the likes of United and Chelsea, however we have been badly hit with severely long injuries to Rosicky, Fabregas, Walcott and Eduardo. We need some big signings in January.

OPENROAD

invincibleirish wrote: »

iirc the interviewer questioned him on the MON incident, and a few other Qs on the game, all replied to by Wenger in a very short sharp manner. He wasn't very happy.

At least he came out and did an interview.

invincibleirish

OPENROAD wrote: »

At least he came out and did an interview.

MON interviewed on SSN just a few mins ago? said a bit more then Wenger as well:pac:.

FWIW MON would definitely kick the Frenchmans arse if it came to it:p.

eagle eye

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Villa being able to dominate a team like they are is as clear an indication that are are worth their current position in the league. Playing some very mature football.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan, I have witnessed us outplay the top teams and create chance after chance yet still loose the game. It has happened so many times in the last few seasons. I didn't actually realise that Arsenal were 1 up when I posted.

I read back through the thread and I don't whats been said to annoy people. And I cannot find the post where he was talking about a crisis anywhere

Quazzie

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The defensive nature of some of the posts on this thread in response to perfectly reasonable posts by myself are hilarious.Crisis , crikey, lol, haha and whatever are all reasonable responses.

eagle eye wrote: »

I read back through the thread and I don't whats been said to annoy people. And I cannot find the post where he was talking about a crisis anywhere

Thats just one of them.. there was others too

Villain

OPENROAD wrote: »

At least he came out and did an interview.

I think Sky must have been tight for time, MON was interviewed by them after the game.

BTW from what Sky showed the so called incident between Wenger and MON consisted of Wenger shouting something at MON and came over and asked what he was saying, I didn't see MON say anything to Wenger, but maybe Sky missed something?

OPENROAD

Villain wrote: »

I think Sky must have been tight for time, MON was interviewed by them after the game.

BTW from what Sky showed the so called incident between Wenger and MON consisted of Wenger shouting something at MON and came over and asked what he was saying, I didn't see MON say anything to Wenger, but maybe Sky missed something?

Hard to tell,but MON was running over towards Arsene and was held back not walking over still they shook hands straight away, end of story imo, sky making too much of it.

Villain

He ran after Wenger beckoned him, I'm guessing Wenger thought Gabby dived and said as much but I'm only guessing!

cashback

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

To re-enforce how defensive and ridiculous he is being, I am 28 and was 10 when Liverpool last won the league.. I ended up supporting Liverpool after watching an Everton and Liverpool cup final and deciding that I liked the team in red.. That was 89 I think.. Actually, my ould fella reckons it could actually be the '86 final..

Defo a glory hunter

Ha, that´s how i became an arsenal fan. 1993 Cup final. Could have easily have ended up following the owls. Close one.

Anyway once the penalty was conceded I knew it was just a matter of time before the equaliser. I´m away travelling but it´s been the same for most matches i´ve seen this season. Panic at the back.

OPENROAD

Villain wrote: »

He ran after Wenger beckoned him, I'm guessing Wenger thought Gabby dived and said as much but I'm only guessing!

It has been suggested that Gallas got some of the ball, want to see it again later, could have been that, mon did seem freaked out

Villain

Oh I don't think Gallas got anywhere near the ball.

eagle eye

Q2002 wrote: »

Thats just one of them.. there was others too

Eh thats two actually and I read the others as well and nothing he said was out of line in or controversial in any way except for him mistakingly making a post thinking the match was level at the time when in fact Arsenal were 1 up. He explained that in one of those posts I quoted.

eagle eye

OPENROAD wrote: »

It has been suggested that Gallas got some of the ball, want to see it again later, could have been that, mon did seem freaked out

Gallas got none of the ball, Agbonlahor went down pretty easily but you always get them decisions in a home game. It had to be given, the only thing that confused me at the time was that Gallas did not get a card.

Quazzie

actually its just one of them because one of my quoted messages was yours.

I think the problem was that he threw the word "crisis" into some posts at random for no apparent reason.

DSB

I'd say the major 1 was him quoting a post he made earlier in the day predicting Arsenal to win, as if to brag, when Villa were 2 down.

Kinetic^

Interviews are up on this pages now.

Savman

Wenger: Diving bastard.
MON: Me and you, outside.

miaow

jesus_thats_gre

Q2002 wrote: »

actually its just one of them because one of my quoted messages was yours.

I think the problem was that he threw the word "crisis" into some posts at random for no apparent reason.

A South African mate of mine always says crisis in situations where Australians would say "crikey" or Irish people would say "jaysus"..

The issues that they had with my posts were not down to be me saying "crisis".. They were being ultra defensive and venting in my direction as a result of undeservedly being 2 nil down..

Anyone else would have got a swift **** off but I purposely didn't post anything inflammatory in the hope that others would point out how retarded some of them were being.

Anyway, forget about it..

Bounty Hunter

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Anyway, forget about it..

yep lets just not mention it again.

I wonder will this just be the match thread or the battle for 4th thread?