Catholic by birth, Atheist by the grace of God

Húrin

Sorry for the cheesy title. :pac:

Hi I was wondering something. You hear a lot of people describe themselves as "Catholic by birth". But this sounds ridiculous to me, as nobody is born Christian. But this just may be my radical protestant views talking. Is there a Catholic teaching which says people can be born Catholic, or is this just 'ethnic religion' which people just assume, and has no spiritual merit?

I'm thinking of statements like the following, which is typical

anonymous poster wrote:

I'm a former Catholic (by birth, not by choice) and now an atheist

kiffer

Well... by accident of birth I was born in to a family in which the children were being raised Catholic... and so I was raised as a Catholic, had I been born elsewhere I might have been raised differently.

PDN

Technically it should be "Catholic by being baptised shortly after birth."

kiffer

PDN wrote: »

Technically it should be "Catholic by being baptised shortly after birth."

True, lets step it up a notch.

Baptised into the Roman Catholic Church rather than some other faith, by accident of birth!

robindch

Húrin wrote: »

a lot of people describe themselves as "Catholic by birth". But this sounds ridiculous to me, as nobody is born Christian.

Quite right. Everybody is born an atheist, it's only a joint accident of location and culture that has people in this country saying they're "catholic by birth" instead of hindu, buddhist, fsm or whatever. "Catholic by irrefutable acquisition" might be a better term.

Húrin wrote: »

Is there a Catholic teaching which says people can be born Catholic

Not to my knowledge. Though as I pointed out in some recent thread, a newborn can be "baptized" immediately upon birth by anybody present, whether catholic or not (and I know one person who mentioned that they've done this to their kids "just in case"). And now that I think about it, I don't believe there's any prohibition on baptizing the unborn either, so technically, I suppose, yes, perhaps you could be "born catholic".

Hacking Shakespeare's line, I suppose you could say that some people are born catholic, some achieve it, and rather a lot have it thrust upon them.

apoch632

Catholic is also a cultural identity in Ireland. In an (Northern mostly) Irish context it is possible to be a protestant atheist or catholic atheist. There is a some joke about that which I can't remember. It is mostly a hangover from the nationalism that the state was founded on. It will go away with time. In the future I think the only people who will describe themselves as Catholics will be actual Catholics

Phototoxin

The joke is that in the troubles a man is walking down a street in Belfast when 2 men in balaclavas pull him into an alley and ask him ' are you a Catholic or a Protestant' and he says 'I'm a Jew actually' so the two men look at each other and whisper a bit and then say 'A Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?'

gernon

Phototoxin wrote: »

The joke is that in the troubles a man is walking down a street in Belfast when 2 men in balaclavas pull him into an alley and ask him ' are you a Catholic or a Protestant' and he says 'I'm a Jew actually' so the two men look at each other and whisper a bit and then say 'A Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?'

Version I heard has guy saying 'I am a Jew' to which the gunman says 'Boy I must be the luckiest Arab in Belfast'

apoch632

Phototoxin wrote: »

The joke is that in the troubles a man is walking down a street in Belfast when 2 men in balaclavas pull him into an alley and ask him ' are you a Catholic or a Protestant' and he says 'I'm a Jew actually' so the two men look at each other and whisper a bit and then say 'A Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?'

Thats the joke I heard aye. But it was atheist instead of jew when it was told to me

MementoMori

Funny that I should see this as I just baptised my nephew yesterday.

However I baptised him as an atheist.:P

The ceremony itself was quite quick and painless - Basically I said "[Baby's name] I baptise you as an atheist" and I rubbed his belly. His mom and dad were in bed sleeping as they'd been up most of the night with feeds and I was looking after him so there was no-one besides the two of us present.

The main reason I did it so that if his grandfather (my sister's father-in-law) ever gets snippy about religion I can bring it up and piss him off. I figured my sister will be cool (forgot to tell her when she got up) with it given I'm going to be his offical Catholic Church godfather when they have the Church baptism in a month or so and I will also be his legal guardian in case anything should happen to the folks. My sister told me the reason they are having him baptised is because his grandfather is a strident hard-line Catholic and to avoid fuss with that and also because it will make getting into the "right" school easier down the line. It just goes to show what a mockery the whole baptism thing is.

However it did prompt the idea that in future I will be baptising all babies I come accross in this manner so that technically they will be baptised as atheists as opposed to Christians. Please feel free to use this ceremony as your own if you are so inclined.

MrPudding

gernon wrote: »

Version I heard has guy saying 'I am a Jew' to which the gunman says 'Boy I must be the luckiest Arab in Belfast'

I prefer the one where the Indian guy get stopped in east Belfast and is asked where he is from (an innocent question in most places.) He answers Dehli and promptly get a good kicking. Why? Why? He cries. It's London Delhi came the response.

MrP

Fanny Cradock

MementoMori wrote: »

Funny that I should see this as I just baptised my nephew yesterday.

However I baptised him as an atheist.:P

The ceremony itself was quite quick and painless - Basically I said "[Baby's name] I baptise you as an atheist" and I rubbed his belly. His mom and dad were in bed sleeping as they'd been up most of the night with feeds and I was looking after him so there was no-one besides the two of us present.

Did you actually do this, or are you just pulling our legs?

Húrin

Who cares? One cannot make a baby a Catholic, an atheist or anything else merely by baptising them shortly after birth.

Húrin

MementoMori wrote: »

Funny that I should see this as I just baptised my nephew yesterday.

However I baptised him as an atheist.:P

The ceremony itself was quite quick and painless - Basically I said "[Baby's name] I baptise you as an atheist" and I rubbed his belly. His mom and dad were in bed sleeping as they'd been up most of the night with feeds and I was looking after him so there was no-one besides the two of us present.

That doesn't make sense because the term "baptise" literally means to submerge in water. Belly rubbing doesn't cut it! The religious connotations of baptism are just that, connotations rather than solid meaning.

Phototoxin

My sister told me the reason they are having him baptised is because his grandfather is a strident hard-line Catholic and to avoid fuss with that and also because it will make getting into the "right" school easier down the line. It just goes to show what a mockery the whole baptism thing is.

I agree, that whole thing irritates me. If they parents dont go to mass then they should just be flat out refused.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you actually do this, or are you just pulling our legs?

Just cut and paste it, then save it up for the next time one of our atheist friends tries to tell us atheism isn't a religious belief.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

save it up for the next time one of our atheist friends tries to tell us atheism isn't a religious belief

Well, if you want to say that a belief about religion is "religious" in the sense that a religious belief is "religious", then by all means think it so. I can't imagine that you're going to win any converts to this square-jawed creed though. Most atheists -- heavens, perhaps all of them -- are at least as opposed to religion as they are to any particular person's notions of a what constitutes a deity

I rather suspect that MementoMori was satirizing religion. Though as with much of, say the activities of creationists or the hooting baboons in the US Republican Party, the distinction between the reality that some people construct for themselves, and the satire of the rather obviously fake, can be a trifle blurry.

robindch

Húrin wrote: »

One cannot make a baby a Catholic, an atheist or anything else merely by baptising them shortly after birth.

I'm not sure that the Vatican agrees with you on that...

MementoMori

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you actually do this, or are you just pulling our legs?

Yeah I did do it but as someone pointed out it is essentially meaningless, just like his actual baptism will be in a Church next month.

PDN

MementoMori wrote: »

Yeah I did do it but as someone pointed out it is essentially meaningless, just like his actual baptism will be in a Church next month.

And I am in full agreement with you.

Húrin

robin, I know the vatican disagrees. I still think they're wrong.

Phototoxin wrote: »

I agree, that whole thing irritates me. If they parents dont go to mass then they should just be flat out refused.

I disagree. People should be welcomed to participate in Christian life. If they are turned away, are they likely to be more open to participation in the future?

What are the worst consequences anyway? Besides a small amount of time waste?