Woman In Islam

Nuravictus

Why do Muslims not believe woman are our equal, I seen Videos of Woman been arrested in Iran for not wearing the right lenght clothing. Its unreal, I seen videos of people saying beating your wife is a good way to manage her. Thou it was a anti jihad muslim video.

Why are woman not equal to men in Islam.

tolteq

Salaam brother,

I think its more a cultural issue. There is a whole section (Sura or chapter) in the Qu'ran on Women! trust me! and its all about how you show treat women with kindness!

BuffyBot

I suggest you do a search on this forum for Women and Islam - it's been discussed at lenght before, and you might turn up some interesting discussions

Nuravictus

tolteq wrote: »

Salaam brother,

I think its more a cultural issue. There is a whole section (Sura or chapter) in the Qu'ran on Women! trust me! and its all about how you show treat women with kindness!

Then why do Muslims consider beating your wife as a good way of controling them. Muslims in general seem to be a devote bunch & I cant understand why you would ignore the Qu'ran if it states to treat a woman with kindness.

Mr. CooL ICE

Nuravictus wrote: »

Then why do Muslims consider beating your wife as a good way of controling them. Muslims in general seem to be a devote bunch & I cant understand why you would ignore the Qu'ran if it states to treat a woman with kindness.

As said before, its a cultural thing as opposed to a religious thing. Saying they all beat women is just tar brushing.

I've seen a video where Sean Connery admits to slapping his wife. Just because he slaps his wife doesn't mean all Scottish-born oscar-winning actors slap their wives

InFront

Nuravictus wrote: »

Then why do Muslims consider beating your wife as a good way of controling them

Nuravictus I must say that's quite an exaggeration. I'm sure you are smart enough not to base the position of all Muslims on one or two videos you have seen on the internet... Islam does not advocate wife beating, it's very very simple.

Schuhart

BuffyBot wrote: »

I suggest you do a search on this forum for Women and Islam - it's been discussed at lenght before, and you might turn up some interesting discussions

Indeed, rather than enumerate old themes, I thought it was discussed pretty comprehensively here, for instance.

Duras

Nuravictus wrote: »

why you would ignore the Qu'ran

Same reason one would ignore the 10 commandments.

Getting back to your initial question: were woman equal to men in Christianism one century ago? Why?

af_thefragile

Women in Islam are equal to men.
In some aspects men get more rights than women and in some women have the upper hand but overall if you balance it out women are equal to men.

I won't go into details cuz that would take too long.
And another thing i'ld say is that there's a lot of people who'ld give you THEIR views of women's rights and such instead of what Islam says. Its mostly due to cultural practices which leads to their own misunderstanding of the religion. Just like the person above mentioned as were women treated equal to men in christian europe a century ago?
Also don't look at Saudi Arabia as true portrait of Islam. It's a very Islamic country indeed but again a lot of what they follow is cultural practices than Islamic practices. Many people who belong to royal families have parties where they get drunk and do all sorts of things you wouldn't call "Islamic" while on the streets women are forced to cover their bodies (which is actually not an obligation anymore, they're just supposed to cover their heads) and not drive cars. Thats not Islam.

Don't look at whole countries and societies to get a picture of Islam. Look at what's written in the Quran and what was preached by the prophet Mohammed.

Yusuf Mirza

Question
Why do Muslims not believe woman are our equal, I seen Videos of Woman been arrested in Iran for not wearing the right lenght clothing. Its unreal, I seen videos of people saying beating your wife is a good way to manage her. Thou it was a anti jihad muslim video.

Why are woman not equal to men in Islam.



Answer

http://www.alislam.org/library/WOMANINISLAM.pdf

Assalamo alaikum.

I read your recent post where you expressed your concern that Islam or at least Muslims in general seem to treat women quite badly. Generaly in under developed countries where there is poor education, no democracy and general ignorence mistreatment happens. Look at all those "christian" countries in Africa like Uganda, Etheopia, Zimbabwe, Conge etc where mass rape is used as wepon of intimidation. The highest number of sexual asaults happen in Christian countries. Look how the exploitation of women has been normalised in the west with so called glamor models and all types of pornography to the point where even little girls are not safe. Remember in this country untill dome 2 decades ago a woman who was mistreated could not get a divorse and only in the last 60 years that women in the west have the right to work and vote. So ineqality is not a matter of religous influence but rather the ignoring of it. If you cut and paste the link above on your adress bar you will find an excellent book that will certanly help you.

Your friend
Yusuf - Galway

tolteq

men are bad everywhere.

merrionsq

af_thefragile wrote: »

Don't look at whole countries and societies to get a picture of Islam. Look at what's written in the Quran and what was preached by the prophet Mohammed.

Always a fair point. But, you asking the OP to ignore the real world where we live, where real people put Islam into practice. And instead you say he should focus on theoretical framework. A virtual world you might say.

getz

InFront wrote: »

Nuravictus I must say that's quite an exaggeration. I'm sure you are smart enough not to base the position of all Muslims on one or two videos you have seen on the internet... Islam does not advocate wife beating, it's very very simple.

you are wrong . see ,answering -islam.org if you wish i could quote the quran in sura

Jannah

af_thefragile wrote: »

Women in Islam are equal to men.
In some aspects men get more rights than women and in some women have the upper hand but overall if you balance it out women are equal to men.

I was reading a book recently where is was saying that, even if the woman is smarter and more moral, the husband is always the leader of the family- I don't really get that :S

Also, this whole idea of the man being able to scold the woman when she does something wrong, but there being no set procedure for how a woman should punish her husband when he is wrong is a little... confusing...

Nuravictus

It seems this is a Arab thing not a Islam thing.

Nodin

Nuravictus wrote: »

It seems this is a Arab thing not a Islam thing.

More of a "developing world" thing....

Irish Islamic Vanguards

I'm new to boards.ie but have been looking at a number of threads on Islam - many of which post liberal, erroneous messages based on ignorance and whim.

The discussion on women in Islam is often misunderstood and the word equality is bandied around as if it is an Islamic principle - it is not! Islam does not advocate equality at all, rather it enjoins justice and this I believe is the correct position.

This position is elaborated here. http://islamicvanguards.com/?p=237

mrac

because men are superior to women and are better than women........

No people shall ever prosper who appoint a woman as their ruler.......

Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason....

And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. .....

There are some hilarious ideas in that link, do you honestly think any of that is in any way "just"? This article just perpetuates why religion is such a dangerous tool for manipulation and control.

hivizman

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

I'm new to boards.ie but have been looking at a number of threads on Islam - many of which post liberal, erroneous messages based on ignorance and whim.

The discussion on women in Islam is often misunderstood and the word equality is bandied around as if it is an Islamic principle - it is not! Islam does not advocate equality at all, rather it enjoins justice and this I believe is the correct position.

I think that the view of Islam as a religion that supports equality is often based on a reading of Muhammad's final sermon, which includes the much-quoted passage: "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood." (quoted from Islamicity.com)

However, this speech also includes the following: "O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste."

The basic issue is: when does justice require people to be treated in the same way, and when does justice require people to be treated in different ways depending on specific personal characteristics or qualities?

Irish Islamic Vanguards

The point is the word equality is never mentioned, that is something people bring to the text. What is mentioned is the aspect of justice and being just. That doesn't mean that everyone is equal - that is demonstrably untrue - but is does mean that people are treated justly, not according to whim BUT Divine text. And that's the issue - what is justice according to the Quran and Sunnah upon the understanding of the salaf.

Monty Burnz

mrac wrote: »

There are some hilarious ideas in that link, do you honestly think any of that is in any way "just"? This article just perpetuates why religion is such a dangerous tool for manipulation and control.

Lots of opinion (and incorrect opinion at that) masquerading as fact. Total horse feathers.

This sort of thinking is definitely going to improve Ireland. :rolleyes: :mad:

getz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Lots of opinion (and incorrect opinion at that) masquerading as fact. Total horse feathers.

This sort of thinking is definitely going to improve Ireland. :rolleyes: :mad:

the problem is that those of us in the west do not realize that islam is still a young religion,its year is 1433,christians in 1433 were burning people at the stake and women had even less rights than islamic females of today ,the religion is moving forward quickly,and we are expecting it to run before it can even walk.

mrac

getz wrote: »

the problem is that those of us in the west do not realize that islam is still a young religion,its year is 1433,christians in 1433 were burning people at the stake and women had even less rights than islamic females of today ,the religion is moving forward quickly,and we are expecting it to run before it can even walk.

That really is no excuse at all, backward idiotic thinking is just simply backward idiotic thinking. We cannot make allowances for what is essentially slavery of 50% of the population (which is what that article seems to suggest) simply because this religion is still finding its feet.

getz

mrac wrote: »

That really is no excuse at all, backward idiotic thinking is just simply backward idiotic thinking. We cannot make allowances for what is essentially slavery of 50% of the population (which is what that article seems to suggest) simply because this religion is still finding its feet.

i am not making a excuse for it,its a male dominated religion even some of the main christian religions treat the fair sex as second class citizens,the anglican community is split at this moment in time over women bishops,and as for the catholic church,dispite evidence of women teachers in the early christian times

Monty Burnz

getz wrote: »

the problem is that those of us in the west do not realize that islam is still a young religion,its year is 1433,christians in 1433 were burning people at the stake and women had even less rights than islamic females of today ,the religion is moving forward quickly,and we are expecting it to run before it can even walk.

Yeah, I don't think that makes a lot of sense to be honest. Christians and other religions had stupid attitudes in the past because key breakthroughs in human thought had not been made. But they have been made now and there is no reason or excuse for people to ignore them.

You don't see Muslims only using technology equivalent to 1433, so why do many of them still hold attitudes appropriate to that era?

whydoc

Prophet Muhammad (s) said, ” “The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best and kindest to his wife.” and ““Do treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.”
Islam has the highest regard for women:
http://theislamicworkplace.com/2012/07/08/islam-has-the-highest-regard-for-women/

Monty Burnz

whydoc wrote: »

Prophet Muhammad (s) said, ” “The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best and kindest to his wife.” and ““Do treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.”
Islam has the highest regard for women:
http://theislamicworkplace.com/2012/07/08/islam-has-the-highest-regard-for-women/

Perhaps it thinks it does, but its regard is highly patronising as if they are somehow not quite the full shilling. Why is a woman not allowed beat her husband to discipline him, for example? But a man is allowed beat his wife?

mrac

whydoc wrote: »

Prophet Muhammad (s) said, ” “The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best and kindest to his wife.” and ““Do treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.”
Islam has the highest regard for women:
http://theislamicworkplace.com/2012/07/08/islam-has-the-highest-regard-for-women/

Thats all well and good but for every "good" quote the quran has about women there are a dozen which put forward the idea that women are merely property or that they are in some way inferior to men.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

"Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like "

"And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her"

Muhammads views on women really have no place in modern society.

Monty Burnz

mrac wrote: »

Muhammads views on women really have no place in modern society.

Both my girlfriend and my mother would fall off their seats laughing at the notion that a woman's memory is somehow worse than a man's.

irishconvert

mrac wrote: »

That really is no excuse at all, backward idiotic thinking is just simply backward idiotic thinking. We cannot make allowances for what is essentially slavery of 50% of the population (which is what that article seems to suggest) simply because this religion is still finding its feet.

"Essentially slavery of 50% of the population", what planet are you living on?!!

getz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think that makes a lot of sense to be honest. Christians and other religions had stupid attitudes in the past because key breakthroughs in human thought had not been made. But they have been made now and there is no reason or excuse for people to ignore them.

You don't see Muslims only using technology equivalent to 1433, so why do many of them still hold attitudes appropriate to that era?

its the same old problem,the more religous you are the more likely you are to believe everyone elses religion is wrong,the biggest crimes against humanity are always down to religion, and lets face it most muslims take religion by the word of the koran more than christians do the bible.

mrac

irishconvert wrote: »

"Essentially slavery of 50% of the population", what planet are you living on?!!

That comment wasn't referring to islam as a whole but rather the contents of the link provided where in the author is clearly trying to justify treating women as close to slaves as he can.

As for islam as a whole I would agree that the slavery comment is not completely justified however the quran clearly portrays women as lesser creatures to men which is simply an outdated and unjustifiable stance on the sexes.

whydoc

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

The ayah is explained Here.

mrac

whydoc wrote: »

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

The ayah is explained Here.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make
.

Mintoz

Women are not equal to men, full stop. It seems you've been influenced by todays ever popular egalatarianism philosophy, where people pretend they're the same. This should help sum it up for you:

Women are better than men at being women, and Men are better than women at being men.

This is what makes marriage work, the weaknesses of each sex serve to compliment the other, where true gelling, or marriage can occur. Made to fit.

Unfortuneatrely, the sexual revolution, which messed all this up, allowed men and women to use and manipulate eachother through sex, resulting in childish power games, so that the sexes are competing, and not complimenting one another, making marriage impossible (high divorce rates). They called it "Sexism". Of course it's just as unjust to treat unequals equally, as it is to treat equals unequally.

In conclusion, the sexes are not equal, they are different, and designed to fit eachother.

Monty Burnz

Mintoz wrote: »

Women are not equal to men, full stop. It seems you've been influenced by todays ever popular egalatarianism philosophy, where people pretend they're the same. This should help sum it up for you:

Women are better than men at being women, and Men are better than women at being men.

This is what makes marriage work, the weaknesses of each sex serve to compliment the other, where true gelling, or marriage can occur. Made to fit.

Unfortuneatrely, the sexual revolution, which messed all this up, allowed men and women to use and manipulate eachother through sex, resulting in childish power games, so that the sexes are competing, and not complimenting one another, making marriage impossible (high divorce rates). They called it "Sexism". Of course it's just as unjust to treat unequals equally, as it is to treat equals unequally.

In conclusion, the sexes are not equal, they are different, and designed to fit eachother.

...think you. Fortunately, the Western world moved away from this nonsense over the last few hundred years.

mrac

Mintoz wrote: »

Women are not equal to men, full stop. It seems you've been influenced by todays ever popular egalatarianism philosophy, where people pretend they're the same. This should help sum it up for you:

Women are better than men at being women, and Men are better than women at being men.

This is what makes marriage work, the weaknesses of each sex serve to compliment the other, where true gelling, or marriage can occur. Made to fit.

Unfortuneatrely, the sexual revolution, which messed all this up, allowed men and women to use and manipulate eachother through sex, resulting in childish power games, so that the sexes are competing, and not complimenting one another, making marriage impossible (high divorce rates). They called it "Sexism". Of course it's just as unjust to treat unequals equally, as it is to treat equals unequally.

In conclusion, the sexes are not equal, they are different, and designed to fit eachother.

Of course there are differences between the sexes, for starters I have male reproductive organs and not female ones. But to make out that these differences equate to one sex being superior/inferior to the other has no basis in reality. The idea that a man can command his wife and beat her if she doesn't do what he commands* for no other reason than he has the penis is ludicrous.

You seem to suggest that pre feminist movement days when women stayed at home making the dinner and popping out babies were some idyllic times that we should return to. Perhaps this would be better from your perspective but what about the women who do not wish to follow your idyllic version of what a woman should be? Should these women just be forced into your standard of what a woman is because you say so?


*"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them."

banquet

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

I'm new to boards.ie but have been looking at a number of threads on Islam - many of which post liberal, erroneous messages based on ignorance and whim.

The discussion on women in Islam is often misunderstood and the word equality is bandied around as if it is an Islamic principle - it is not! Islam does not advocate equality at all, rather it enjoins justice and this I believe is the correct position.

This position is elaborated here. http://islamicvanguards.com/?p=237

Ah Liam I hope you haven't just joined boards to start spouting that nonsense about women being the true perpetrators in sexual violance and rape.

doctoremma

Mintoz wrote: »

Women are better than men at being women, and Men are better than women at being men.

Physical differences aside, can you outline any specific traits that you ascribe to men and to women that aren't simply gender conditioning?

irishconvert

Monty Burnz wrote: »

...think you. Fortunately, the Western world moved away from this nonsense over the last few hundred years.

Comments like this make me laugh. What about the rights of my wife to choose to stay at home and raise our daughter? This right has been taken away by the way western society has changed. Financially impossible. Both of us must work full time. Unless of course we want to buy a house in some **** drug infested area where God knows how our child will end up. So where's is the woman's choice/rights in this situation?

Don't make out the West has some kind of superior way of treating women. In my opinion, women are treated as second class citizens in the west, they just don't seem to realise it.

irishconvert

getz wrote: »

the biggest crimes against humanity are always down to religion, .

To say that is such a big kop out. If you look at the biggest crimes against humanity, they usually use religion as an excuse. The perpetrators are usually not the least bit religious but do it "in the name of religion".

mrac

irishconvert wrote: »

Comments like this make me laugh. What about the rights of my wife to choose to stay at home and raise our daughter? This right has been taken away by the way western society has changed. Financially impossible. Both of us must work full time. Unless of course we want to buy a house in some **** drug infested area where God knows how our child will end up. So where's is the woman's choice/rights in this situation?

Don't make out the West has some kind of superior way of treating women. In my opinion, women are treated as second class citizens in the west, they just don't seem to realise it.

Its not that your wife is being denied staying at home with the kids its the fact we are in a difficult financial time, I sympathise it is not easy times for any of us. What I and I believe Monty too, was getting at is the idea that women are somehow lesser than us and they should be forced to stay at home. There is no logical reason why a woman should be forced into such a role if there is no logical reason for it and she does not wish it.

irishconvert wrote: »

To say that is such a big kop out. If you look at the biggest crimes against humanity, they usually use religion as an excuse. The perpetrators are usually not the least bit religious but do it "in the name of religion".

Do you know these people personally? How do you know they were not religious? Religion is not the only reason for the worlds crimes of course but it is certainly a leading factor.

irishconvert

mrac wrote: »

Its not that your wife is being denied staying at home with the kids its the fact we are in a difficult financial time, I sympathise it is not easy times for any of us. What I and I believe Monty too, was getting at is the idea that women are somehow lesser than us and they should be forced to stay at home. There is no logical reason why a woman should be forced into such a role if there is no logical reason for it and she does not wish it.

No, I live in London which is financially doing very well. Impossible to have one stay at home parent unless you want to raise your children in a hell hole. And it was the same in Ireland before I left, this was in the height of the Celtic Tiger. Western society has been designed against the family, most people are too blind to see it though.

mrac wrote: »

Do you know these people personally? How do you know they were not religious? Religion is not the only reason for the worlds crimes of course but it is certainly a leading factor.

Do you know them personally? I know they were not religious because all of the main religions teach it is wrong to kill. Therefore they could not be religious.

Monty Burnz

irishconvert wrote: »

Comments like this make me laugh. What about the rights of my wife to choose to stay at home and raise our daughter?

Thanks to modern attitudes, she has that right. Or you can, if you prefer. Or both of you can work.

irishconvert wrote: »

This right has been taken away by the way western society has changed. Financially impossible. Both of us must work full time. Unless of course we want to buy a house in some **** drug infested area where God knows how our child will end up. So where's is the woman's choice/rights in this situation?

Nonsense, it's perfectly possible financially. Unless you are a materialist who puts money above your happiness?

irishconvert wrote: »

Don't make out the West has some kind of superior way of treating women. In my opinion, women are treated as second class citizens in the west, they just don't seem to realise it.

It has a far superior way of treating women. But don't ask me, ask the women themselves - if they can stop laughing at your ideas long enough to answer you.

Monty Burnz

mrac wrote: »

Do you know these people personally? How do you know they were not religious? Religion is not the only reason for the worlds crimes of course but it is certainly a leading factor.

It has been said that to get good people to do bad things, you need religion. Suicide bombers who think they are striking a blow for <insert abstract idea here> spring to mind.

irishconvert

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It has a far superior way of treating women. But don't ask me, ask the women themselves - if they can stop laughing at your ideas long enough to answer you.

What idea is that? That the west is far from perfect in the way women are treated, despite what some posters on this thread would have you believe? Exactly what is laughable about that point?

I believe in the family structure. Tell me what your beliefs are around the family? Should only one parent work, or both? How should the job or raising the kids be divided? One parent, both equally, or a third party (child minder, nursery, etc)? How is the family supported if one parent wants to stay at home? I seem to remember iw was more tax efficient for a couple to remain unmarried, is this still the case?

irishconvert

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It has been said that to get good people to do bad things, you need religion. Suicide bombers who think they are striking a blow for <insert abstract idea here> spring to mind.

So all the members of the US and British army in Iraq and Afghanistan must be religious then? It's nothing to do with religion, it's all to do with brain washing. You don't need religion to brain wash someone.

mrac

irishconvert wrote: »

No, I live in London which is financially doing very well. Impossible to have one stay at home parent unless you want to raise your children in a hell hole. And it was the same in Ireland before I left, this was in the height of the Celtic Tiger. Western society has been designed against the family, most people are too blind to see it though.

It is difficult sure, but you cannot have everything in life, if one parents job is sufficient to pay for the material goods the family needs and wants then the other parent is free to stay at home. If it is not you can cut back on material goods, try to get a better job or have both parents work. Again I sympathise that things are not as you wish them to be but that's not society being "anti family" at all its simply a result of your economic situation.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you know them personally? I know they were not religious because all of the main religions teach it is wrong to kill. Therefore they could not be religious.

"fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5)

When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)

Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)

The quarn makes numerous references to killing, as do all the abrahamic religions (I only included the islamic ones here because its the islam forum). To make the claim that these religions "teach it is wrong to kill" is laughable.

Monty Burnz

irishconvert wrote: »

What idea is that? That the west is far from perfect in the way women are treated, despite what some posters on this thread would have you believe? Exactly what is laughable about that point?

You are dead right. We have some more work to do in establishing full equality, but Rome wasn't built in a day. But we are, it seems, about 500 years of Islam.

irishconvert wrote: »

I believe in the family structure. Tell me what your beliefs are around the family?

Families are great, I have one.

irishconvert wrote: »

Should only one parent work, or both? How should the job or raising the kids be divided? One parent, both equally, or a third party (child minder, nursery, etc)? How is the family supported if one parent wants to stay at home? I seem to remember iw was more tax efficient for a couple to remain unmarried, is this still the case?

Whatever suits your circumstances, you are free to do. That's freedom. Freedom is good.

Monty Burnz

irishconvert wrote: »

So all the members of the US and British army in Iraq and Afghanistan must be religious then? It's nothing to do with religion, it's all to do with brain washing. You don't need religion to brain wash someone.

So you must think all the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are good people?

irishconvert

mrac wrote: »

irishconvert wrote: »

No, I live in London which is financially doing very well. Impossible to have one stay at home parent unless you want to raise your children in a hell hole. And it was the same in Ireland before I left, this was in the height of the Celtic Tiger. Western society has been designed against the family, most people are too blind to see it though.

It is difficult sure, but you cannot have everything in life, if one parents job is sufficient to pay for the material goods the family needs and wants then the other parent is free to stay at home. If it is not you can cut back on material goods, try to get a better job or have both parents work. Again I sympathise that things are not as you wish them to be but that's not society being "anti family" at all its simply a result of your economic situation.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you know them personally? I know they were not religious because all of the main religions teach it is wrong to kill. Therefore they could not be religious.

"fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5)

When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)

Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)

The quarn makes numerous references to killing, as do all the abrahamic religions (I only included the islamic ones here because its the islam forum). To make the claim that these religions "teach it is wrong to kill" is laughable.

Please don't come on this forum and quote out of context to attempt to back up your bigoted view of Islam. These quotes all refer to self defence. It is not unreasonable to kill someone in order to prevent them from killing you. what action would you take to stop someone killing your family? if what you say was true then Muslims reading the third quote would be out killing Jews and Christians left, right and centre.

bigots are not welcome in this forum. please don't cut and paste anymore selective quotes from anti Muslim websites here.