Alternative Christmas Message

Frankie Lee

From Channel 4:

Wednesday 24 December 2008
Read the translation of the Alternative Christmas Message, delivered by the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.


"In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Upon the anniversary of the birth of Jesus, Son of Mary, the Word of God, the Messenger of mercy, I would like to congratulate the followers of Abrahamic faiths, especially the followers of Jesus Christ, and the people of Britain.


The Almighty created the universe for human beings and human beings for Himself.


He created every human being with the ability to reach the heights of perfection. He called on man to make every effort to live a good life in this world and to work to achieve his everlasting life.


On this difficult and challenging journey of man from dust to the divine, He did not leave humanity to its own devices. He chose from those He created the most excellent as His Prophets to guide humanity.


All Prophets called for the worship of God, for love and brotherhood, for the establishment of justice and for love in human society. Jesus, the Son of Mary, is the standard-bearer of justice, of love for our fellow human beings, of the fight against tyranny, discrimination and injustice.


All the problems that have bedevilled humanity throughout the ages came about because humanity followed an evil path and disregarded the message of the Prophets.


Now as human society faces a myriad of problems and a succession of complex crises, the root causes can be found in humanity's rejection of that message, in particular the indifference of some governments and powers towards the teachings of the divine Prophets, especially those of Jesus Christ.


The crises in society, the family, morality, politics, security and the economy which have made life hard for humanity and continue to put great pressure on all nations have come about because the Prophets have been forgotten, the Almighty has been forgotten and some leaders are estranged from God.


If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers.


If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would hoist the banner of justice and love for humanity to oppose warmongers, occupiers, terrorists and bullies the world over.


If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would fight against the tyrannical policies of prevailing global economic and political systems, as He did in His lifetime. The solution to today's problems is a return to the call of the divine Prophets. The solution to these crises is to follow the Prophets - they were sent by the Almighty for the good of humanity.


Today, the general will of nations is calling for fundamental change. This is now taking place. Demands for change, demands for transformation, demands for a return to human values are fast becoming the foremost demands of the nations of the world. The response to these demands must be real and true. The prerequisite to this change is a change in goals, intentions and directions. If tyrannical goals are repackaged in an attractive and deceptive package and imposed on nations again, the people, awakened, will stand up against them.


Fortunately, today, as crises and despair multiply, a wave of hope is gathering momentum. Hope for a brighter future and hope for the establishment of justice, hope for real peace, hope for finding virtuous and pious rulers who love the people and want to serve them – and this is what the Almighty has promised.


We believe, Jesus Christ will return, together with one of the children of the revered Messenger of Islam and will lead the world to love, brotherhood and justice. The responsibility of all followers of Christ and Abrahamic faiths is to prepare the way for the fulfilment of this divine promise and the arrival of that joyful, shining and wonderful age. I hope that the collective will of nations will unite in the not too distant future and with the grace of the Almighty Lord, that shining age will come to rule the earth.
Once again, I congratulate one and all on the anniversary of the birth of Jesus Christ. I pray for the New Year to be a year of happiness, prosperity, peace and brotherhood for humanity. I wish you every success and happiness."

Hardly the words of a tyrannical war mongerer.

sink

Frankie Lee wrote: »

From Channel 4:

Hardly the words of a tyrannical war mongerer.

Don't be fooled.

Darragh29

To be honest, his points are not without merit... He should get his own shop in order though before he starts pointing out tyrants... Shopping folks heads & hands off in 2008 is a bit last century to be honest...

Nodin

sink wrote: »

Don't be fooled.

While I've no doubt he represents a repressive, conservative element in Iran that bears Israel and Jews no love, I'm forced to point out that "MEMRI" translations are to be taken with a grain of salt. Its not an impartial language service, and some of its output has been challenged and rejected, due to a clear distortion of the intent of the subject.

AlekSmart

Oh dear......he left dear little Ireland out of his list of countries due an apology from their Brittanic Majesties...oh well...perhaps a Trade Mission or Willie O Dea might put that right ?

Not for the first time,however,am I angry at how this Middle East slant continues to dominate the Western Worlds lists of boogymen.

Yet,with every day that passes our media carry the latest front line accounts of a REAL despot going about his evil business.
A despot who managed to be gifted what was widely regarded as the most progressive and productive piece of Africa.

Yes indeed people,the World`s continuing reluctance to deal robustly with Robert Mugabe remains an odd mystery.

Given that the "West" as an entity largely fell in behind George Bush when he and his administration attacked Iraq,why then have we all been so comfortable with maintaining such a stoic silence about Mugabe ?

From what I can make out Sadaam Hussein was a harsh ruler who made harsh decisions which most certainly caused pain and suffering to a great many of his people.
Yet,even Husseins enemies will admit that he was one of the few Middle Eastrn leaders who used the vast amounts of "New" Oil revenues to the benefit of his country as a whole.
It can be argued that Hussein`s Iraq and his policies were far more liberal and beneficial than the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,which continues to waltz along with not so much as a western eyelid raised about it`s somewhat risquè habits and customs.

I watched with amazment as General Colin Powell made the amazing Weapons of Mass Destruction "revelations" at the United Nations.

I remember thinking am I hearing and seeing correctly here......The largest Country in the Western World with gazillions of dollars worth of covert and overt Intelligence and all they could find was a few 50 Gal drums stored outdoors ?? :eek:

But Mr Bush huffed and puffed and eventually had the satisfaction of seeing Sadaam Hussein departing with a sight more grace and dignity than some US Presidents of late....(Why does Richard M Nixon keep springing to mind?)

Having achieved absolutely nothing of concrete value in Iraq why has the USA not even nodded threateningly towards Mr Mugabe.
For cryin out loud...this man makes Sadaam look like an Ògra Fàil leader.....whats the reasoning behind the silence ?
Willie O Dea would do much for Irish World Standing if he were to order the IDF forces currently in Chad to gear up for a solo invasion of Zimbabwe and yes.....arrest and put on trial the despotic Mugabe....Now THAT would be productive use of our Defence Forces !!

Húrin

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wrote:

If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would fight against the tyrannical policies of prevailing global economic and political systems, as He did in His lifetime.

Actually Jesus did not come to earth as a political revolutionary but as a spiritual revolutionary. He spent most of his time talking about heaven and the end times. He did not address the tyranny of his time, that of Rome, because he wished his followers to focus on eternal realities, not the temporary.

Mark 13:1 wrote:

1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"

2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Matthew 24:35 wrote:

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Jesus did, of course, say that people should behave towards one another in a spirit of love and brotherhood. (the good samaritan which is found in Luke 10)

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yes indeed people,the World`s continuing reluctance to deal robustly with Robert Mugabe remains an odd mystery.

It's not a mystery. They just couldn't be arsed. They only went to Iraq for strategic advantage.

Hurin wrote:

Actually Jesus did not come to earth as a political revolutionary but as a spiritual revolutionary. He spent most of his time talking about heaven and the end times. He did not address the tyranny of his time, that of Rome, because he wished his followers to focus on eternal realities, not the temporary.

..well...thats the version thats been passed on.

dresden8

Nodin wrote: »

..well...thats the version thats been passed on.

By the Roman tyrants, the ones he didn't wish to overthrow.

PrivateEye

http://www.hopoi.org/irannews%20-%20students.html

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/85237

He can shove his 'Christmas Message'. Its not uncommon to hear people in the West go 'But Bush killed X amount of babies, our enemies enemy blah blah' when it comes to tyrants like Ahmaidinejed.

Womens equality, proper recognition for Trade unions, equality for homosexuals....lets see some of these things brought about before we decide if he's a good guy or not.

Men and women are dying in custody in Iran for standing up to the Government. A well prepared statement at Christmas won't change a thing.

The only 'alternative Christmas message' that caught my attention was a burning Christmas tree in Athens, tbh.

Frankie Lee

Húrin wrote: »

Actually Jesus did not come to earth as a political revolutionary but as a spiritual revolutionary. He spent most of his time talking about heaven and the end times. He did not address the tyranny of his time, that of Rome, because he wished his followers to focus on eternal realities, not the temporary.




Jesus did, of course, say that people should behave towards one another in a spirit of love and brotherhood. (the good samaritan which is found in Luke 10)

I suppose it would be fairer to say Jesus would have been a socialist.

Frankie Lee

PrivateEye wrote: »

http://www.hopoi.org/irannews%20-%20students.html

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/85237

He can shove his 'Christmas Message'. Its not uncommon to hear people in the West go 'But Bush killed X amount of babies, our enemies enemy blah blah' when it comes to tyrants like Ahmaidinejed.

Womens equality, proper recognition for Trade unions, equality for homosexuals....lets see some of these things brought about before we decide if he's a good guy or not.

Men and women are dying in custody in Iran for standing up to the Government. A well prepared statement at Christmas won't change a thing.

The only 'alternative Christmas message' that caught my attention was a burning Christmas tree in Athens, tbh.

Its far worse in Saudi Arabia but you do not see an invasion being planned there.

Serenity Now!

Nodin wrote: »

While I've no doubt he represents a repressive, conservative element in Iran that bears Israel and Jews no love, I'm forced to point out that "MEMRI" translations are to be taken with a grain of salt. Its not an impartial language service, and some of its output has been challenged and rejected, due to a clear distortion of the intent of the subject.

Very true.
He's a populist with whom everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and constantly in a struggle with the real powerbase in Iran, the religious leaders of the country.

Just a publicity stunt where the only winner will be Channel4 via ratings.
Even coming from Jewish stock, I personally found Bush's speech in Iraq more insulting, especially the part where he thanked the people of Iraq (:rolleyes:) for their contribution in making the US safer. A lie of the highest and crassest order.
The Pope chucked another salvo at homosexuals yet not so much of an outcry. And this is the same Pope behind the push to beatify another Pope who did bugger all about anything going on in Germany during the 30s and early 40s.

Its all bollocks and will be forgotten in a week. Preferred the Gavin & Stacey christmas special meself.

Nodin

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Very true.
He's a populist with whom everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and constantly in a struggle with the real powerbase in Iran, the religious leaders of the country.

Just a publicity stunt where the only winner will be Channel4 via ratings.
Even coming from Jewish stock, I personally found Bush's speech in Iraq more insulting, especially the part where he thanked the people of Iraq (:rolleyes:) for their contribution in making the US safer. A lie of the highest and crassest order.
The Pope chucked another salvo at homosexuals yet not so much of an outcry. And this is the same Pope behind the push to beatify another Pope who did bugger all about anything going on in Germany during the 30s and early 40s.

Its all bollocks and will be forgotten in a week. Preferred the Gavin & Stacey christmas special meself.

Indeedy. The worst "demon" is usually the one they're hoping to bomb in the near future. You don't see too much mention of the plight of the women of Afghanistan by the Pentagon now (presumably once you're beaten with a 'Freedom' stick as oppossed to a Taleban one, its ok).

Mr.Micro

The Iranian President is no worse or no better that all the other hypocrites. Its just that its Iran, and if anything it upstages messages from the Pope and other leaders at this time of year. I think its great and freshens up this whole Christmas message BS, regardless of all the hypocrisy. Got to give it to the man he must have a good pr team and C4 gets the ratings.

Nodin

dresden8 wrote: »

By the Roman tyrants, the ones he didn't wish to overthrow.

Well, by the 'Pauline' faction, who essentially de-Judaised the church to make it more palatable to both Romans and Greeks, as far as I understand it. Certainly its strange that he's put to death by crucifiction, as that was a Roman punishment, yet the implication is that the Jews are responsible. When trying to proslytise in an Empire, being seen as blaming that Empire entirely for the death of the son of your god wouldn't be politic, or that healthy. Far easier to implicate the Jews in it, particularily when their relations with Greeks and Romans was volatile at the best of times. Unfortunately that gave rise to a long running pattern....

Possibly the best known trace of a more "in your face" Jesus is where he enters Jerusalem to acclaim and then goes to the temple.

Given the vast amount of wealth stored there, it's unthinkable that he could act in the manner described without being set upon by the forces of the priesthood. As no such attempt is mentioned, or divine intervention to stave off same, it does hint at a man with perhaps a mob or armed group at his back.

Thats of course if it happened at all.

Frankie Lee wrote:

I suppose it would be fairer to say Jesus would have been a socialist. .

Thats the last Jesus I sort of believed in. Came as something of a shock to realise that was the Jesus the (then) Pope didn't approve of. 'its ok to resist oppression as long as its not the kind of oppression I don't mind too much'.

I'm rambling. Tis the Turkey overdose. Good night to thee.

Kevster

I fail to see why there was controversey over this, because he said absolutely nothing that a devout religious person would disagree with. I know that he's not the best statesman out there, but Bush has arguably been a much worse statesman.

lostexpectation

who's had more affect on us?

Húrin

Nodin wrote: »

..well...thats the version thats been passed on.

The Gospels as we know them have been dated to around 70AD (except John which is dated to 100AD), when Christians had not really yet registered on the imperial radar. There is no evidence to suggest that the Romans changed the Gospels. The sources we have, right back to the Dead Sea Scrolls, all show remarkably little change in the Gospels since the first century.

The idea that Jesus was a political revolutionary is merely wishful thinking of the last century or two.

Frankie Lee wrote: »

I suppose it would be fairer to say Jesus would have been a socialist.

I agree, the values of Jesus are closer to the values of socialism than of capitalism - but both are materialist ideologies, and Jesus was not a materialist ideologue.

Nodin wrote: »

Well, by the 'Pauline' faction, who essentially de-Judaised the church to make it more palatable to both Romans and Greeks, as far as I understand it.

There is no evidence that Paul changed the message of Christianity from what Jesus preached and what his followers believed. Christ asked his followers not to limit their mission to Jews, but to "make disciples of all nations."

Certainly its strange that he's put to death by crucifiction, as that was a Roman punishment, yet the implication is that the Jews are responsible.

Pilate succumbed to popular pressure and to the pressure of the Pharisees.

When trying to proslytise in an Empire, being seen as blaming that Empire entirely for the death of the son of your god wouldn't be politic, or that healthy.

Blame is irrelevant; Jesus was sent here with the intention of being executed. It was always his mission to be nailed to the cross. That's why he chastised Peter for trying to resist the soldiers who came to resist him.

Far easier to implicate the Jews in it, particularily when their relations with Greeks and Romans was volatile at the best of times. Unfortunately that gave rise to a long running pattern....

Neither Jesus nor St Paul attempted to hide Christ's Jewish origins.

Possibly the best known trace of a more "in your face" Jesus is where he enters Jerusalem to acclaim and then goes to the temple.

This is when the Jews thought that he was going to establish himself as the new king of Israel because that was prophesised in their scriptures. As we see he was established as a king but in a different way than they expected - a way that was to include all creation.

Thats of course if it happened at all.

indeed

Thats the last Jesus I sort of believed in. Came as something of a shock to realise that was the Jesus the (then) Pope didn't approve of. 'its ok to resist oppression as long as its not the kind of oppression I don't mind too much'.

The Bible describes the life of Jesus; pretty much anything other interpretation that is not based on the Bible is just wishful thinking.

Nodin

Húrin wrote: »

There is no evidence to suggest that the Romans changed the Gospels. .

I never said they did.

Húrin wrote: »

The sources we have, right back to the Dead Sea Scrolls, all show remarkably little change in the Gospels since the first century..

The dead sea scrolls relate to the old Testament, and Essene beliefs, not the Gospels.

Húrin wrote: »

There is no evidence that Paul changed the message of Christianity from what Jesus preached and what his followers believed. Christ asked his followers not to limit their mission to Jews, but to "make disciples of all nations."..

His influence was key in determining what became canon and what did not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

As for Jesus.....Matthew 15:21-28 shows traces of something a bit different...

Húrin wrote: »

Pilate succumbed to popular pressure and to the pressure of the Pharisees..

....so the story goes.

Húrin wrote: »

The Bible describes the life of Jesus; pretty much anything other interpretation that is not based on the Bible is just wishful thinking.

Well, it's informed speculation. As is taking any historic political document at entirely face value.

Kevster wrote:

I fail to see why there was controversey over this, because he said absolutely nothing that a devout religious person would disagree with. I know that he's not the best statesman out there, but Bush has arguably been a much worse statesman. .

As a religous statement, its far more tolerant message than some given by the last two Popes (on a few occassions) - of course it doesn't encompass the whole of his beliefs, which would be more Iris Robinson in tone..... As for political aspect of having him on, theres far more bodies that can be lain at the door of many a US politician than him. They're just better buried.

Serenity Now!

Húrin wrote: »

the Bible is just wishful thinking.

I think this is more correct.