should turkey be allowed join the EU

_Nuno_

ionix5891 wrote: »

yes they need to do alot of work, i dont agree with religion (any religion) interfering so deeply with a nation, neither is beating women or prosecuting minorities (kurds) on

I agree with this. They should be let in the EU, but only after they achieved a very defined separation between religion and politics. I don't think this will happen in the next few decades though.

It took Europe a long time to put the Catholic church in their place (and Ireland even longer), and having Islam now interfere with law making in the EU would be a huge step back.

evercloserunion

kevteljeur wrote: »

I think the whole issue of Turkey joining exposes the 'Pyramid scheme' nature of part of the EU's growth strategy; they need a younger population with a growing market, and a cheaper labour force in the future. Turkey supplies that in a ready-made package, but they also know that themselves. It's not a good way to plan ahead for the future, however, to absorb states and cultures based on how they'll balance the books in the future.

At the end of the day, I believe the EU needs to draw a line somewhere, have a 'close affiliate' package for states like Turkey, and then sort it's current issues out internally. But that last bit's purely my personal opinion.

Well calling it a "pyramid scheme" makes it sound bad of course but every society would benefit from a younger workforce, it's nothing peculiar to the EU to want that.

CDfm

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's a thing, now - and on what would you base that view?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Its a different culture and its not a pyramid scheme.

It regulates markets for our benefit - its not a charity -its for us to keep people out and exploit economic advantages.

Woohoo.

evercloserunion

CDfm wrote: »

Its a different culture and its not a pyramid scheme.

It regulates markets for our benefit - its not a charity -its for us to keep people out and exploit economic advantages.

Woohoo.

It's a different culture primarily because it's a different religion, but in an increasingly secular world that is getting less and less important.

There were significant culture differences within Europe when the EEC was founded, as is evident by the fact that the European countries had spent the last few centuries knocking the living sh!t out of each other. The beauty of the EU is that it can overcome those cultural differences.

Scofflaw

CDfm wrote: »

Its a different culture and its not a pyramid scheme.

It regulates markets for our benefit - its not a charity -its for us to keep people out and exploit economic advantages.

Woohoo.

As evercloserunion says, the EU already covers countries with deep cultural differences, who had been fighting and vilifying each other for centuries. The Ottoman Empire itself was part of the European political scene for many of those centuries. I don't think one can simply say "oh, it's a different culture, involvement would never work" without explaining why involvement would never work with the particular culture you're talking about.

The EU encompasses countries which were under church domination on entry (Ireland, for example), had just come out of being ruled by military juntas (Greece, Spain, Portugal), have just emerged from Communism and retain strong Communist traditions (all of Eastern Europe), are divided by foreign occupation (Ireland, Cyprus), or had just committed an unprecedented act of genocide on foot of their aggressive invasion of the rest of Europe under fascism (Germany). What exactly makes Turkey so impossible a candidate?

As to "it's not a charity" - well, yes, it often is, and a good thing too, because otherwise Ireland would never have been let in. 35 years we've been in the EU, and we're still not contributors, nor likely to be for another decade.

cordially,
Scofflaw

RichMc70

No.

Turkey should never be allowed into the EU. I don't see how anyone could even class it as a european country bearing in mind approx. 95% of it's land is situated within the continent of asia.

Turkey has a population of over 70 million. IMO it's Brussels looking at Turkey as massive supply of cheap labour force.

ionix5891

RichMc70 wrote: »

No.

Turkey should never be allowed into the EU. I don't see how anyone could even class it as a european country bearing in mind approx. 95% of it's land is situated within the continent of asia.

Turkey has a population of over 70 million. IMO it's Brussels looking at Turkey as massive supply of cheap labour force.

thats quite weak argument

theres plenty of land outside European continent thats part of EU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union


look closely at a euro note see that place in south america (thats bigger than ireland)?

97i9y3941

RichMc70 wrote: »

No.

Turkey should never be allowed into the EU. I don't see how anyone could even class it as a european country bearing in mind approx. 95% of it's land is situated within the continent of asia.

Turkey has a population of over 70 million. IMO it's Brussels looking at Turkey as massive supply of cheap labour force.

unfortantly thats the downside of enlargeing the e.u aswell,its belived now that dell in limerick will close up and move to poland,its cost of business that drives companies out of here

CDfm

Fred83 wrote: »

unfortantly thats the downside of enlargeing the e.u aswell,its belived now that dell in limerick will close up and move to poland,its cost of business that drives companies out of here

Too true Fred.

Ireland has a comparative economic advantage for doing business in Europe that expansion erodes and it is not in our long term interests to see enlargement.

We adopt and enforce EU rules in all kinds of areas that others ignore- anyone seeing the markets outside Paris would know this.

Its about time we really looked after our own interests,

ionix5891

Fred83 wrote: »

unfortantly thats the downside of enlargeing the e.u aswell,its belived now that dell in limerick will close up and move to poland,its cost of business that drives companies out of here

wait for another No result in next referendum and they all would go

hell my own business had to shed 2 employees since last referendum due to the crunch affecting our customers and all the uncertainty about irelands place in eu

i wont be sticking around if Ireland ends up not being a full EU member due to libertosers buying another vote

CDfm

ionix5891 wrote: »

wait for another No result in next referendum and they all would go

hell my own business had to shed 2 employees since last referendum due to the crunch affecting our customers and all the uncertainty about irelands place in eu

i wont be sticking around if Ireland ends up not being a full EU member due to libertosers buying another vote

I agree - but on matters of enlargement- it sucks,

I dont think Turkey should be allowed in until I can see an economic advantage for Ireland and I cant.

ionix5891

CDfm wrote: »

I agree - but on matters of enlargement- it sucks,

I dont think Turkey should be allowed in until I can see an economic advantage for Ireland and I cant.

an access to a new market of 72 million (yes they are poorer per gdp on average, but on positive side theres alot of people there) is an economic advantage (some might say an opportunity)

and a nice sunny cheap place to buy a holiday home

their economy grew by 5% this year while our shrunk by about as much

97i9y3941

CDfm wrote: »

Too true Fred.

Ireland has a comparative economic advantage for doing business in Europe that expansion erodes and it is not in our long term interests to see enlargement.

We adopt and enforce EU rules in all kinds of areas that others ignore- anyone seeing the markets outside Paris would know this.

Its about time we really looked after our own interests,

im sick of this bull**** too of people blaming goverment for the recession,why dont they think it was some of our own fault too,the second houses,the suv,the holidays,the restaurants,all bought on ****ing credit,the small people thaught they could come big and screw us all.

CDfm

Fred83 wrote: »

im sick of this bull**** too of people blaming goverment for the recession,why dont they think it was some of our own fault too,the second houses,the suv,the holidays,the restaurants,all bought on ****ing credit,the small people thaught they could come big and screw us all.

I agree with you Fred.

Its a world recession - ireland is just a small country and the government can do very little in the grand scheme of things.

Its a free market economy and the government can no longer use the Central Bank and monetary policy to regulate the economy, That part went when we joined the Euro,people borrowed and spent. If I dont have it I dont spend it.

When people took out credit thats what they did.Everyone went wacko.

Remember when Bertie Aherns car got roughed up in Waterford by hospital activists. Pure wacko.

Whenever I see or hear about people whinging about stuff like this they dont want to see stuff tackled like the public sector and every local issue hopitals and every interest group in every parish wants its own donkey cemetary paid for and it costs money,

Its central governments job to provide essential services and to keep the country robust enough to be competitive and lean and fit enough financially.

Lisbon I am for as its in our interest for Europe, as for Turkey -I cant see that its for our benefit.

Its time for reality to kick in.

97i9y3941

the HSE is an odd thing alright,people in vhi/bupa get paided less but run a better health service than people that run HSE

CDfm

The HSE and public service is very odd fred.

Just do the math. I saw it reported that our hospital doctors get paid E180,000 per annum vs E120,000 in the UK.

I saw it reported that junior public service employees get 30% more than private sector employees -excluding pensions and other benefits which would add on 25% to 50% depending on who you believe.

It looks like the public sector knows quite well how to pay itself.

Its a bit more then taking on the power of the unions and vested interests. To tackle it you would need cross party support and support from Enda Kenny and his mob.

They seem to put party politics and local politics ahead of the country.

Zebra3

ionix5891 wrote: »

wait for another No result in next referendum and they all would go

hell my own business had to shed 2 employees since last referendum due to the crunch affecting our customers and all the uncertainty about irelands place in eu

i wont be sticking around if Ireland ends up not being a full EU member due to libertosers buying another vote

There is no uncertainty in Ireland's place in the EU due to the way the people voted.

And a yes vote would have saved those jobs? :rolleyes:

CDfm

Would a yes vote havevsaved the jobs

How?

Can you back up your argument and cite sources.

evercloserunion

This thread is about Turkey, not Lisbon or the recession.

CDfm

evercloserunion wrote: »

This thread is about Turkey, not Lisbon or the recession.

Well thats a mods decision.

I would say their are 2 reasons it is relevant.

The first being EU enlargement changed Europe and a furter enlargement ATM would furter dilute our voting powers. This makes it relevant even in the hypothetical.

The thread has broad topical issues on the operation of the new EU decision making model upon enlargement as we are experiencing now. If we expand the EU into asia or the Middle East what are we saying. Do we invite Israel next?

evercloserunion

It's not a mod's decision, it was the decision of the thread starter that this thread should be about Turkey and not Lisbon or the recession. I'm just reminding you.

RichMc70

ionix5891 wrote: »

thats quite weak argument

theres plenty of land outside European continent thats part of EU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union


look closely at a euro note see that place in south america (thats bigger than ireland)?

Fcuk it then, they may as well go the whole hog and invite india or china as a member state. That way we'll have billions of cheap labour force.

sink

RichMc70 wrote: »

Fcuk it then, they may as well go the whole hog and invite india or china as a member state. That way we'll have billions of cheap labour force.

In time my hope is that the entire planet will be governed by EU like structures. Where states have rights and responsibilities towards one another instead of the winner takes all system currently in place. It's not about cheap labour. It is about peace and prosperity.

Scofflaw

CDfm wrote: »

Well thats a mods decision.

I would say their are 2 reasons it is relevant.

The first being EU enlargement changed Europe and a furter enlargement ATM would furter dilute our voting powers. This makes it relevant even in the hypothetical.

Not really, given the rarity of voting, and the extreme rarity of real voting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

CDfm

evercloserunion wrote: »

It's not a mod's decision, it was the decision of the thread starter that this thread should be about Turkey and not Lisbon or the recession. I'm just reminding you.

In an ideal world.

Then the question would be hypothetical.

Out of interest under the proposed Lisbon treaty what barriers to membership are there?

evercloserunion

I don't know of any changes to the entry requirements made by Lisbon.

sink

CDfm wrote: »

In an ideal world.

Then the question would be hypothetical.

Out of interest under the proposed Lisbon treaty what barriers to membership are there?

Lisbon changes nothing to the Copenhagen Criteria. However a number of states have declared they will block future enlargements until the structure of the EU is reformed to accommodate more members.

RichMc70

sink wrote: »

In time my hope is that the entire planet will be governed by EU like structures. Where states have rights and responsibilities towards one another instead of the winner takes all system currently in place. It's not about cheap labour. It is about peace and prosperity.

And we'll all speak one communal language, follow one religion, have one minimum wage and live happily ever after.

Dream on.

CDfm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not really, given the rarity of voting, and the extreme rarity of real voting.

cordially,
Scofflaw

then the thread is pointless -unless its a Christmas riddle.

The answer being - A Turkey voting for Xmas,

Am I right?

Scofflaw

CDfm wrote: »

then the thread is pointless -unless its a Christmas riddle.

The answer being - A Turkey voting for Xmas,

Am I right?

Nope. Anyway, you still have the "enlargement changes the EU" aspect. It just doesn't have much effect on our weight in Europe as such, because the Council doesn't actually vote much - about 20% of the time, in fact, and usually only when some government wants to be able to be seen to oppose a policy for their home audience. It usually operates by consensus - and that might be harder to achieve with a culturally, geographically, and strategically different country at the table.

cordially,
Scofflaw