so own up who went to mass

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

how is it confrontational for you not to go to mass, how is upsetting to say to somebody you don't believe?

If you can't think of a scenario where coming out of the atheist closet on Christmas morning is going to upset some people, then frankly you're not thinking hard enough.

Fanny Cradock

Dades wrote: »

If you can't think of a scenario where coming out of the atheist closet on Christmas morning is going to upset some people, then frankly you're not thinking hard enough.

Yes, very possibly! It's also conceivable that a non-believer might actually enjoy the ceremony and the atmosphere (if not the message).

Doctor DooM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, very possibly! It's also conceivable that a non-believer might actually enjoy the ceremony and the atmosphere (if not the message).

Exunctly. Just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean you don't believe in friends, family, and a little bit of tradition.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

I thought we'd agreed - to have respect for the right to believe, rather than the belief itself!

Well yes, that is my point. It isn't very respectful to Catholics to pretend to be a Catholic, particularly in a Catholic church. Even if one does not respect the belief one should (if they care that much) respect those who believe, particularly if they are friends and family.

The idea that people should go along with being Catholic at Christmas as to not appear out of place or upset anyone to me is rather ironic, because if someone was genuinely happy enough that you were doing that then I would question how much they respect their own belief system in the first place.

Dades wrote: »

So it's hardly the time of year to tell mom and dad that you don't believe in any of it, as the answers to the inevitable questions are going to upset.

Well I wouldn't recommend having that conversation about religion on the way to the church on Christmas morning

But the next question is why would someone only be having that conversation on the way to the church on Christmas morning...

Galvasean

SDooM wrote: »

Exunctly. Just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean you don't believe in friends, family, and a little bit of tradition.

Cultural Christianity FTW?

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote: »

Cultural Christianity FTW?

Halloween, cultural paganism. No one actually believes that bases behind that, but it doesn't stop people having a bloody good time (setting cars on fire, braking guide dogs, etc etc

lostexpectation

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I find this bizarre. As has been pointed out before, atheism has no creed. Why, then, do you feel it is your place to tell fellow non-believers what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour? Live and let live, no?

i find it bizarre that you can't see were simply having a discussion on discussion board, and i find it also tiresome that people keep suggesting capitulation is compromise and that we should just shut up and be quiet, and let things stay as they are, when the status quo favours them, really you don't add anything to the discussion,or to the world at all.

lostexpectation

Dades wrote: »

If you can't think of a scenario where coming out of the atheist closet on Christmas morning is going to upset some people, then frankly you're not thinking hard enough.

well they would probably already know really, and why would these Christians make an issue of it, on Christmas of all days.

Doctor DooM

lostexpectation wrote: »

i find it bizarre that you can't see were simply having a discussion on discussion board, and i find it also tiresome that people keep suggesting capitulation is compromise and that we should just shut up and be quiet, and let things stay as they are, when the status quo favours them, really you don't add anything to the discussion,or to the world at all.

People just disagree with you... that IS discussion.

I will stand up and be counted when I believe something is happening which I need to be stood up and counted for. Making life crap for my family at christmas would not be on the top of that list.

Nodin

lostexpectation wrote: »

i didn't but i bet there hypocrites here who did.

I didn't, but its no odds for those who do.

lostexpectation

SDooM wrote: »

People just disagree with you... that IS discussion.

fanny said i was dictating a creed,I said i wasn't i was discussing, pay attention or don't comment on it.

I will stand up and be counted when I believe something is happening which I need to be stood up and counted for. Making life crap for my family at christmas would not be on the top of that list.

why would going to church make life crap for your family?

Fanny Cradock

lostexpectation wrote: »

i find it bizarre that you can't see were simply having a discussion on discussion board

I'm quite aware that this is a discussion on a discussion board. Have I ever indicated otherwise
It's clear that not every irreligious person out there agrees that stepping foot inside a church (for whatever reason) is an act of capitulation to some sort of great evil. Freedom of choice, eh! What can you do about it?

Fanny Cradock

lostexpectation wrote: »

fanny said i was dictating a creed,I said i wasn't i was discussing, pay attention or don't comment on it.



why would be going to church make life crap for your family?

Ah, now! I didn't actually say 'dictate'.

As for your question, surely that has been answered before in this thread? Whatever you opinion on the foolishness of such a reaction, many people (myself included) would become upset if someone decided to become an atheist. Obviously one need not explain why. In this regard, it probably isn't too different from what an atheist might feel if a close friend of family member slapped on some praise and worship music and announced that they loved Jesus.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

really you don't add anything to the discussion,or to the world at all.

So what the world needs is more people like you!

PDN

Dades wrote: »

So what the world needs is more people like you!

If everyone was like lostexpectation it would save the economy billions by reducing the number of keys required on a computer (you could eradicate both the Shift key and Caps Lock). Think of all the plastic that would save. Heck! It could pull us out of the recession single-handedly.

philologos

Ironically, one could say that lostexpectation is almost being dogmatic in saying that atheists who have gone to church for Christmas are hypocrites.

Tell me this lostexpectation, did you celebrate Christmas in any way with your family on Christmas Day?

If so it could be argued that you are a hypocrite for celebrating a Christian festival.

However, I welcome you and anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

However, I welcome you and anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.

In the same way I'd say that many pagans welcome you in celebrating their pagan solstice festival every year.

philologos

pH, and that would be perfectly reasonable of them, but I cannot due to other religious obligations

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

pH, and that would be perfectly reasonable of them, but I cannot due to other religious obligations

Ahh yes, an atheist eats turkey and ham, wears a paper hat and gives some presents on the 25th December and he's now "celebrating Christmas", whereas Christians feast, put up trees, hang lights, send card and have Yule logs and they're not celebrating the pagan solstice, you must explain how that works sometime.

philologos

pH wrote: »

Ahh yes, an atheist eats turkey and ham, wears a paper hat and gives some presents on the 25th December and he's now "celebrating Christmas", whereas Christians feast, put up trees, hang lights, send card and have Yule logs and they're not celebrating the pagan solstice, you must explain how that works sometime.

What is the understanding that they meet together? What is the day honouring to those who have received you for Christmas dinner.

The context is of crucial importance.

Christians feast, put up their trees, etc in the knowledge that Charlemagne consecrated the day as a day to celebrate the birth of Christ Jesus in 800AD.

So yes, if you are there, and if you are received on the understanding that the day is for celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, yes you are celebrating Christmas.

A clue might be what they say to you. "Merry Christmas", "Happy Christmas", even "Happy Xmas" constitutes it as X is a commonly used symbol for Christ. You should know upon hearing this that the context you are being invited is one of a Christian festival to honour the birth, life and ministry of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another clue might be "Do you want to come for Christmas dinner?". The sentiment is clear. Christmas is a Christian festival, therefore you are celebrating it if it is under that context.

I don't think the bold was neccessary but I added it in for good measure.

I quite frankly care for Christ, that's why I celebrate Christmas, I don't care for pagan beliefs, I don't care for commercialism. Christ's birth deserves to be honoured.

There are plenty of typically Christian things that occur, infact more Christian things than pagan influenced ones if you are to be objective in your analysis.

The day when people accept that Christmas is a Christian festival, and that we have every right to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour will be quite a day indeed. Notice, how I don't intend to compromise Hannukah or Ramadhan as being distinctly Jewish and Islamic festivals respectively. One would argue that it is only a matter of respect and tolerance. The pagans have every right to view the day whatever way they like, but to suggest that the Christians don't have a right to value this birth, and this act of God to bring the Messiah into the world, and then to say that I follow paganism is quite ridiculous.

I think it's quite fair to say that if you are involved in Christmas celebrations, you are partaking in a religious festival.

the_syco

Kept the mother happy. I stood up, knelt, sat, stood up, etc, etc. A quarter of the sheep people in the barn chursh also didn't really know when to stand, sit, or kneel, so I'm guessing they were also christmas-time-christians

lostexpectation

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Ah, now! I didn't actually say 'dictate'.

As for your question, surely that has been answered before in this thread? Whatever you opinion on the foolishness of such a reaction, many people (myself included) would become upset if someone decided to become an atheist. Obviously one need not explain why. In this regard, it probably isn't too different from what an atheist might feel if a close friend of family member slapped on some praise and worship music and announced that they loved Jesus.

people have accused atheist of potentially upsetting people on xmas ,but they having explained why, they say it goes without saying, i think it does require explanation.

lostexpectation

Jakkass wrote: »

Ironically, one could say that lostexpectation is almost being dogmatic in saying that atheists who have gone to church for Christmas are hypocrites.

Tell me this lostexpectation, did you celebrate Christmas in any way with your family on Christmas Day?

If so it could be argued that you are a hypocrite for celebrating a Christian festival.

However, I welcome you and anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.

what does it mean to celebrate? we're talking religion here, i don't think i celebrated xmas in religious sense no,i didn't go to church with me ma on xmas eve when she did, i sat and watched tv or something, i said those who got church and pretend to be christian or say nothing are hypocrite.

Doctor DooM

lostexpectation wrote: »

what does it mean to celebrate? we're talking religion here, i don't think i celebrated xmas in religious sense no,i didn't go to church with me ma on xmas eve when she did, i sat and watched tv or something, i said those who got church and pretend to be christian or say nothing are hypocrite.

And people responded why they don't believe this is so, which you don't accept, which is bully for you, but is still the way most people feel.

Most atheists are not militant- they simply do not care.

lostexpectation

PDN wrote: »

If everyone was like lostexpectation it would save the economy billions by reducing the number of keys required on a computer (you could eradicate both the Shift key and Caps Lock). Think of all the plastic that would save. Heck! It could pull us out of the recession single-handedly.

now there's an example of comment that adds nothing to discussion, and is off topic, the second time this week, really keep your opinions on me to yourself, pdn.

lostexpectation

Jakkass wrote: »

Ironically, one could say that lostexpectation is almost being dogmatic in saying that atheists who have gone to church for Christmas are hypocrites.

However, I welcome you and anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.

who said anything about dogma, we're having a discussion. its simply a discussion point.

who are you to welcome anybody to celebrate xmas.

lostexpectation

SDooM wrote: »

And people responded why they don't believe this is so, which you don't accept, which is bully for you, but is still the way most people feel.

i wasn't talking to you. i was responding to jakkass.

philologos

Did you engage in Christmas family dinner with your family for example under the context that it was indeed Christmas, and it was a Christian festival? It's a rather simple question.

Likewise in sharing gifts under the context that it was a Christian festival.

If you did surely you are as much of a hypocrite as the ones you accuse?

I thought atheism, was the belief that a God or gods do not exist, hence a = lack of, and theism = belief in God.

Then surely if there are no codified rules for how to be an atheist, these people aren't being hypocrites. They went to church, but they don't believe in God. Big deal? I hope that they would learn more about the Gospel and eventually adopt it, but apart from that I don't see how it could be seen as hypocritical, as if it is an atheist dogma to not enter any religious building.

lostexpectation

cos gift exchange is such a christian religious thing in 2008.

your forgetting the no religion owns the winter festival it goes beyond catholicism and pagans traditions.

i can honestly say i didn't buy anyone a gift.

*I hope that they would learn more about the Gospel and eventually adopt it" *roll eyes*

these sorta comments infer you have no understanding of the subject.

pretending to be a catholic is hypocritical for atheists.

philologos

That I don't understand Christmas, as being a Christian festival? Or, that I don't understand why atheists partake in Christmas? I'm not too concerned about the latter, I hope they enjoyed themselves whoever on the forum did, and maybe took a little more of an open minded approach to discussing Christianity, but the latter isn't entirely necessary.

As for your last quote, pretending to be a Catholic is hypocritical. Why is it hypocritical, if there was some atheistic doctrine that said you should never enter into a religious building, I would understand, but if there isn't I don't see what the point in you accusing others falsely is. You can be in a church and not believe in God, infact it could be an educational experience of Christian culture rather than actually being a means of you worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

As for the comment that if I wish that atheists find the Gospel, that I don't understand. I understand clearly what atheists think of the Christian faith, what I'm hoping for is that atheists may be more open minded and may adopt the Gospel. If my role as a Christian is to tell all of the good news, why wouldn't I want this if I have already benefited from the Gospel and the ministry of Jesus Christ?

By not mentioning having Christmas dinner with your family, you are indicating that you did indeed partake in a Christmas feast under the context of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ and His coming into the world.

Under your own conditions for being a hypocrite, surely if that is the case you are just as guilty as anyone you are accusing?