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so own up who went to mass

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13

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    #62
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    there a big difference in accepting a gift or eating a large dinner at midwinter compared to going to a church service in the pretence that you're a catholic, if you can't see that i doubt your understanding of religion too.

    people have said they say nothing and go to church, giving the impression that they are catholic to their family, a hypocrit. and disrespectful to all.


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    #63
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    there a big difference in accepting a gift or eating a large dinner at midwinter and going to a church service in the pretence that you're a catholic, if you can't see that i doubt your understanding of religion too.

    people have said they say nothing and go to church, giving the impression that they are catholic to their family, a hypocrit. and disrespectful to all.


    If the dinner is taking place as a result of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, you are partaking in an event that honours religious belief surely?

    It's irrelevant, if you did that, you were a part of that.

    I actually don't believe that you are a hypocrite for wanting to celebrate Christmas with your family, but don't criticise others for doing so please. It comes off as extremely arrogant.

    I see people who want to share in the joy of family, and in the joy of the company of others to be a part of what they are celebrating to be actually very respectful. If I were invited to a meal to honour Hannukah, I would be glad to be there to support the Jew/s that had invited me out of tolerance.

    What do you perceive to be my understanding of religion? Since you say that you don't agree with it. Well let me tell you something, I don't agree with your condascending attitude towards others, for well.... wanting to live their lives and celebrate with their family as they want to, whether they are atheist or not.

    You say that it is wrong if they "give the impression that they are Catholic to their family", what if they said, "You know I'm an atheist, but I'll go with you to keep you company". Is that any different? Or even worse perhaps?

    I don't think that giving the impression is why you really think that atheists are really hypocrites for going to church though.


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    #64
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I offered to attend with my mother. She knows I am an atheist, but I wanted to give her some company, if she wanted.

    She didn't go, in the end.

    Another convert, people!


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    #65
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If the dinner is taking place as a result of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, you are partaking in an event that honours religious belief surely?

    So eating a meal with your family even though you're not celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ means you are actually?

    People have had celebrations at this time of year long before Christianity, the fact that Catholics decided to add a celebratory mass on that date is up to them, doesn't mean the rest of us are celebrating it with them.

    What's your opinion of non Catholics celebrating Christ-mass, you think it's a bit hypocritical of them celebrating the mass bit once a year?


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    #66
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,302 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Anyone else to be a part of celebrating the birth of Christ.
    Who's this Christ you speak of? I was celebrating the coming of Santa.


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    #67
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    the_syco wrote: »
    Who's this Christ you speak of? I was celebrating the coming of Santa.

    An atheist celebrating St. Nicholas? Hypocrite! :p


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    #68
    Simi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭Simi


    PDN wrote: »
    An atheist celebrating St. Nicholas? Hypocrite! :p

    No the guy in red from the coke ad.


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    #69
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If the dinner is taking place as a result of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, you are partaking in an event that honours religious belief surely?

    So unless I refuse to eat for the day at home I'll be celebrating Jesus through Christmas dinner?


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    #70
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    Last time I went to mass the Jesus statue gave me a dirty look, and on my way out, when I blessed myself with the holy water, it burned my skin like acid.
    So i decided to give it a miss in future.


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    #71
    benzogirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭benzogirl


    womoma wrote: »
    Last time I went to mass the Jesus statue gave me a dirty look, and on my way out, when I blessed myself with the holy water, it burned my skin like acid.
    So i decided to give it a miss in future.
    :pac:


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    #72
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,329 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    i think it would be more capitulation then a compromise, it be more adult not to go.
    Are you an adult?

    Imo, going to mass and sitting throught the service is impolite and rude. If you stay sitting when everyone else is kneeling, the person behind you (presuming there is someone behind you) is inconvenienced and discomfited because they are right up against your back. So, the only way to do this without being rude is to sit in the back row.

    Not your ornery onager



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    #73
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sangre wrote: »
    So unless I refuse to eat for the day at home I'll be celebrating Jesus through Christmas dinner?

    If you are eating with your family in the traditional way, after church on Christmas Day etc, it's clear that it is under the context of Jesus Christ's birth.

    If you are just eating on your own, or your family didn't go to church or all that I can see that you are taking the day as more a secular thing.

    Either way, I never said I had a problem with atheists celebrating Christmas, but it is a Christian festival.


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    #74
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Either way, I never said I had a problem with atheists celebrating Christmas, but it is a Christian festival.

    It's a Christian festival in exactly the same way as January is a pagan month.


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    #75
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Christmas is a Christian festival.

    Using the word "Christmas" to refer to the traditional winter holiday, and partaking in traditional, secular activities associated with it does not necessarily mean one is celebrating anything Christian.


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    #76
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    pH wrote: »
    It's a Christian festival in exactly the same way as January is a pagan month.

    That's a very two-faced attitude. ;)


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    #77
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Christmas is a Christian festival.

    Using the word "Christmas" to refer to the traditional winter holiday, and partaking in traditional, secular activities associated with it does not necessarily mean one is celebrating anything Christian.

    I never said that, but if you are partaking in Christmas celebration with your family under the understanding that they are celebrating the holidays for celebrating the birth of Christ. Then it is quite clear it is a Christian festival.

    pH, try replacing Christmas with Hannukah or Ramadhan and see if you agree with it then.

    I think that it is abhorrent, that people even of no faith cannot recognise that Christmas is a Christian festival, just as much as Hannukah is Jewish, or Ramadhan is Muslim. It's a sad state of affairs if the majority of atheists don't think this is only fair.


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    #78
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I never said that, but if you are partaking in Christmas celebration with your family under the understanding that they are celebrating the holidays for celebrating the birth of Christ. Then it is quite clear it is a Christian festival.

    pH, try replacing Christmas with Hannukah or Ramadhan and see if you agree with it then.

    I think that it is abhorrent, that people even of no faith cannot recognise that Christmas is a Christian festival, just as much as Hannukah is Jewish, or Ramadhan is Muslim. It's a sad state of affairs if the majority of atheists don't think this is only fair.

    It's a bit peculiar, but hardly abhorrent.

    Christmas certainly is a holiday that was hijacked from paganism, and in its modern form it is obviously designed to celebrate the Incarnation of the Son of God - but that hardly makes anyone a hypocrite for celebrating it.

    (BTW - the old English maesse denotes any holiday - so you can celebrate Christ's holiday without going to mass)

    The only people I think are hypocritical are the extremely vocal anti-theists who claim to believe that religion is the biggest evil in the world. I would not dream of joining in a celebration of something that celebrated something I felt to be evil (eg Hitler's birthday, or a feast rejoicing over Osama bin Laden) - even if I claimed to be simply using it as an excuse to eat turkey and get drunk.


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    #79
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    I don't think an atheist attending mass at Christmas is anymore hypocritical than someone visiting relatives they don't like.
    And possibly a lot less hypocritical than some of the so called christians that go.

    MrP


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    #80
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think that it is abhorrent, that people even of no faith cannot recognise that Christmas is a Christian festival, just as much as Hannukah is Jewish, or Ramadhan is Muslim.
    And I think that it is abhorrent that those with no religion cannot have a holiday without being told that due to conceited pedantry, they are in fact celebrating something religious.

    When I sit down to have Christmas dinner with my family, I may be in the presence of others celebrating the birth of Christ, but I am not personally. When I exchange gifts with others, they may be doing it to celebrate the birth of Christ, but I am not personally. Is it so hard to understand? Because we are a Christian country, the fact that we have a holiday on Christmas Day is probably intended so that people can celebrate the birth of Christ, but not everyone does or has to, and being in the presence of others who are celebrating it, or partaking in traditional festivities does not mean that one is partaking in the celebration of the birth of Christ.


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    #81
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    And I think that it is abhorrent that those with no religion cannot have a holiday without being told that due to conceited pedantry, they are in fact celebrating something religious.

    When I sit down to have Christmas dinner with my family, I may be in the presence of others celebrating the birth of Christ, but I am not personally. When I exchange gifts with others, they may be doing it to celebrate the birth of Christ, but I am not personally. Is it so hard to understand? Because we are a Christian country, the fact that we have a holiday on Christmas Day is probably intended so that people can celebrate the birth of Christ, but not everyone does or has to, and being in the presence of others who are celebrating it, or partaking in traditional festivities does not mean that one is partaking in the celebration of the birth of Christ.

    Right, but if someone invites you to dinner for say Hannukah, or Eid-ul-Fitr, or any other religious festival there happens to be, would you not be there on the understanding that you were there to honour a religious festival or respect their beliefs? One (in most cases) definitely wouldn't go as far as saying that Hannukah or Eid-ul-Fitr weren't Jewish or Islamic festivals respectively as that would be disrespect.

    You mightn't believe it but you are still invited under that context.


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    #82
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I find this bizarre. As has been pointed out before, atheism has no creed. Why, then, do you feel it is your place to tell fellow non-believers what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour? Live and let live, no?
    Just because we have no creed and don't need people telling us how we are supposed to behave based on a fable, does not mean we do not know what is acceptable behaviour. And I would presume we are as entitled to point out what we feel is acceptable behaviour as you and your christian friends.

    MrP


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    #83
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    I personally did none of the celebrating this Christmas, no gifts/obligations received or given. No Turkey dinner. No Trees or decorations.

    So lostexpectation, if you ate one morsel of Turkey or accepted or gave a gift is it ok If I assume you're a hypocrite?

    Why do so many people try to tie some doctrine to Atheism? Show me where it states that an Atheist must not have traditions with family that include any with religious connotations?

    Also why are people getting their knickers in a twist over being called a hypocrite. Humans are inherently hypocritical. Show me a person who says they aren't and i'll show you a hypocrite.

    Is it a form of hypocrisy to go to Church and kneel while believing it all to be false? Yes, in a sense it is, you feel one way yet act contrary. Is it tactful though? completely! I'd rather be a tactful hypocrite than the obnoxious opposite.


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    #84
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Right, but if someone invites you to dinner for say Hannukah, or Eid-ul-Fitr, or any other religious festival there happens to be, would you not be there on the understanding that you were there to honour a religious festival or respect their beliefs? One (in most cases) definitely wouldn't go as far as saying that Hannukah or Eid-ul-Fitr weren't Jewish or Islamic festivals respectively as that would be disrespect.
    If you attend, you partake in their traditions, you respect their right to believe and accept what they are celebrating, but you are not partaking in the celebration of anything supernatural.


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    #85
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Yes, but JC2K3, it is still a religious festival though surely?

    The point is that lostexpectation, thinks that people who go to church though being atheists are hypocrites.

    Yet, s/he partakes in a religious festival with his / her family. Surely they are both as hypocritical by his / her standard.

    So by his / her standard we can conclude s/he is a hypocrite also.

    I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with atheists celebrating Christmas, infact I think it's great that they do.


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    #86
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Put it this way.

    Yes, Christmas is a Christian holiday.

    Yes, many Atheists will be partaking in traditional Christmas festivities, and very possibly with others who are celebrating the birth of Christ.

    It's just a small point. As an atheist, I don't think I'm celebrating Christmas by partaking in traditional festivities. I don't think you can be said to be celebrating something if you don't believe in it. Celebration requires intent.

    Your points about lostexpectation are perfectly true though.


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    #87
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If the dinner is taking place as a result of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, you are partaking in an event that honours religious belief surely?

    No more than you are celebrating paganism by trick'or'treating on 31st of October.

    "Christmas" was a Christian holiday, but it is hard to say that it is still universally is. It is for Christians (some of them), but it has also become a cultural rather than religious, holiday for non-Christians.

    The fact that it is still called "Christmas" doesn't mean much. We still call Thursday Thursday without it involving the worshipping of Thor.

    Christmas is a cultural holiday. It hold religious significance for some Christians in the same way some pagans like to do "serious" stuff on Halloween, but for everyone else it is a cultural event rather than a religious one.


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    #88
    MementoMori
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,492 ✭✭✭MementoMori


    Wicknight wrote: »
    "Christmas" was a Christian holiday, but it is hard to say that it is still universally is. It is for Christians (some of them), but it has also become a cultural rather than religious, holiday for non-Christians.

    The fact that it is still called "Christmas" doesn't mean much. We still call Thursday Thursday without it involving the worshipping of Thor.

    I'd agree strongly with this. For me personally I would believe that currently for the vast majority of people Christmas is mostly a secular holiday with religion only playing a small(going to mass on Christmas day) or non-existant role (as in my own case). I celebrated this nonreligious Christmas with gusto - I went Christmas shopping, went to parties, visited relatives I hadn't seen in a while, unwrapped Christmas presents, asked kids about Santa, ate too much at Christmas dinner, pulled crackers, wore a silly hat, ate some Christmas pudding - the whole hog if you will. I celebrated Christmas but for me I barely gave the whole Jesus Christ/religion thing a first thought.

    While for some Christians, the main part of Christmas was/is about celebrating Jesus Christ's birthday, I would say that for most people the fact of it being Jesus Christ's birthday is only a small part of the whole holiday period, with the rest of Christmas such as the dinner, shopping, partying, presents, meeting friends and family, socialising, even New Years being the major part of what people refer to when talking about Christmas. Christians may not like it but for a lot of people the whole Christmas holidays have nothing to do with religion nowadays apart from the name and given the way things are going I would expect this to continue in the future.

    I'd be of the belief that if you assumed that Jesus Christ had never existed there would still exist a festival around the same time of year with a lot of the same trappings. It might have a different name and some different traditions but for most people it would probably include a lot of the same things as are involved in Christmas. Of course this is conjecture and does kinda get away from the OPs point.


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    #89
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    No more than you are celebrating paganism by trick'or'treating on 31st of October.

    Luckily I don't, and I didn't.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    "Christmas" was a Christian holiday, but it is hard to say that it is still universally is. It is for Christians (some of them), but it has also become a cultural rather than religious, holiday for non-Christians.

    It's still there to honour the birth of Christ, hence a religious festival.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Christmas is a cultural holiday. It hold religious significance for some Christians in the same way some pagans like to do "serious" stuff on Halloween, but for everyone else it is a cultural event rather than a religious one.

    Some? So millions are some.


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    #90
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    No mass. I go into churches for weddings and funerals and hypothetically for baptisms if that's what people I like are into!

    I did do presents and a turkey dinner. Yum.


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    #91
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Luckily I don't, and I didn't.

    Got kids?


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