Go-Ahead for New Ross Bypass

BluntGuy

murphaph wrote: »

This crossing is much more important than people seem to believe. It's not just a bypass for New Ross (a town I couldn't give a monkies about tbh) or the South East, it's about providing a decent route from Waterford/Cork/Limerick and possibly Galway as well as the south Midlands to Rosslare.

In my opinion the N24 should be higher priority than parts of the Atlantic Corridor because of the way it slices across to Rosslare.

We all accept I think that a bridge is required at least. People are suggesting that the proposed cable stayed bridge is over-spec and it should be a scaled back 2+2. Knowing little as I do about the proposal or the lay of the land around there, why do people think they are opting for an 'over spec' 2+2 cable stayed bridge instead of a more straightforward design 2+2 bridge? (I totally refute the notion of building any large river crossing as an S2 in this day and age-that would be pure folly)

Is the lay of the land not determining the position and hence the design choice in this case?

If we are ever to recover our position as an exporter we need to make sure our goods can get to port efficiently and I believe the long-term objective for the N24/N25 should be at least 2+2.

That's all fine and good, but the problem with the New Ross proposal is it just costs... too... much.

I've heard figures from 350 million to 1 billion, I've e-mailed the NRA to get an official figure. Hopefully I'll have a response soon.

Either way, there are much more deserving projects than this I'm afraid. 350 million would pay for Newlands Cross and probably at least one of the SRR upgrades. It would finish the missing chunk of N11, it would get the M20 moving. Don't even get me started on the better uses a billion could be put to, should the project happen to cost that much.

Now yes, I accept a bridge is needed, but does it have to be that mega-bridge? Aren't there any other proposals? Yes, if they're going to build a bridge that long it would be lunacy to make it S2. But for some reason, I can't help but feel that the only reason the project is going ahead like this is more for the want of a huge bridge than the need.

Anyway, if there aren't any more reasonable proposals, this project must be put on the long finger for a long time. We can't have such a huge sum of money that should be invested elsewhere being pumped into a 13 km bypass that's going to be seriously under-utilised.

Lennoxschips

I think people are seriously over-estimating the importance of Rosslare.

Lennoxschips

corktina wrote: »

lots of people like to live out of town, who are you to say they shouldnt?

Many people do, but most of the people living in these out of town estates are doing so because they can't afford a place in the city.

If you offered these people to swap their commute for a similar house closer to the city for the same price, they'd bite your hand off.

corktina

in your humble opinion....:rolleyes:

Lennoxschips

All those people complaining about having to put up with long commutes in order to be able to live in an affordable house must be a figment of my imagination.

corktina

they arent a representative selection, the people who are happy to be doing just that dont voice that opinion. I dont think housing is astronomic in that part of the world and I doubt New Ross would be a lot cheaper than Waterford.

invincibleirish

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I think people are seriously over-estimating the importance of Rosslare.

Bang on the money. If we're building infrastructure to help access to our ports lets build the N28, upgrade the M1 to Bremore port, and do something by road or rail to Foynes.

As for the NR Bypass,as Bluntguy said there are other parts of the N25/Atlantic corridor which are in far greater need of attention.

murphaph

invincibleirish wrote: »

Bang on the money. If we're building infrastructure to help access to our ports lets build the N28, upgrade the M1 to Bremore port, and do something by road or rail to Foynes.

As for the NR Bypass,as Bluntguy said there are other parts of the N25/Atlantic corridor which are in far greater need of attention.

There's no real point in developing Foynes. The slowest part of the journey for any lorry going IRL-UK-Europe is(are) of course the ferry crossing(s). For the same reason, Cork/Ringaskiddy would slow down travel on these routes. Foynes/Cork are only really useful for container traffic, if at all. Our main trading partners are in Europe however-getting to and from the UK/Europe as fast as possible should be a priority. Bremore does not exist as a port of any size and of course, Dublin port is already directly connected to the motorway network anyway.

Rosslare has an existing setup well able to handle volume. New Ross needs bypassing anyway.

corktina

murphaph wrote: »

There's no real point in developing Foynes. The slowest part of the journey for any lorry going IRL-UK-Europe is(are) of course the ferry crossing(s). For the same reason, Cork/Ringaskiddy would slow down travel on these routes. Foynes/Cork are only really useful for container traffic, if at all. Our main trading partners are in Europe however-getting to and from the UK/Europe as fast as possible should be a priority. Bremore does not exist as a port of any size and of course, Dublin port is already directly connected to the motorway network anyway.

Rosslare has an existing setup well able to handle volume. New Ross needs bypassing anyway.

bang on the money...ro-ro is the route of choice and Rosslaire is well positioned fro the UK M4 m25 m2 route to the Continent.

NedNew

Since I am familiar with the area and the by-pass proposal I will mention a few points:

To travel from Rosslare to Waterford, all road traffic needs to pass through the port of New Ross, which causes a less than ideal diversion northwards (Waterford is almost directly west of Rosslare).

In comparison. the train line takes a high bridge across the Barrow-Suir merge to the south and allows ships to pass underneath on their way to New Ross.

The new bypass is a mixture of both of above, it is south of New Ross and also the bridge is high to allow ships to pass. The geography closer to the town does not allow for a high bridge.

If the port business was excluded as a factor then it would be a simple matter of a low level bridge slightly south of the existing bridge. No problems.

If you ask me the port is dead, and has been for over 20 years. But no politician the courage or the will to admit this. However there are still ships arriving into the port, delivering grain and some oil products. Then there is a newer port slightly down river (whicl will also be north of the new bypass) which handles more and more of the existing freight.

There is also a rumour that this will be a PPP project with no immediate cost to the Government.

The standard delay entering New Ross from the Waterford direction would be 20-30 minutes, with delays of 45 minutes not uncommon.

The New Ross/Waterford relationship could be considred as something similar to Naas/Dublin - and Naas badly needed its bypass. New Ross is 25km from Waterford and 53km from Rosslare.

invincibleirish

I must have missed this super port we have in Rosslare. Here was me thinking Dublin Port takes the lions share of trade into this country. Hard to find up to date figures for Rosslare but isn't its RO:RO traffic pretty minor compared to Dublin and similar to other Ports?

Surely Rosslare would have boomed in the past 10-15 years if were any bit useful?

Chris_533976

I think with the tolls surrounding Dublin and a completed M9, M11 and possibly N25 that Waterford/New Ross/ Rosslare and even Cork will become bigger/better ports. A decision needs to be made to develop ONE of them rather than let them all compete randomly. That way we'll have one big port instead of lots of silly, substandard ones. But no, common sense will not prevail and every town will want its own port. Before we know it, Athlone will want its own cruise liner terminal.

Lennoxschips

If the port business was excluded as a factor then it would be a simple matter of a low level bridge slightly south of the existing bridge. No problems.

If you ask me the port is dead, and has been for over 20 years.

How often are ships coming into New Ross? If it's not very often (and you say they port is dead) then a low bridge with an opening/closing section could be built...

Of course a bypass is needed, just not on the scale that is being proposed.

Rosslaire is well positioned fro the UK M4 m25 m2 route to the Continent.

Hmm... There's 60 km of single carriageway from Fishguard to the first bit of dual carriageway, and then it's another 30/40 km to the M4.

The British don't think the traffic numbers on the whole Rosslare-Wales route are up to dual carriageway.

Chris_533976

True, but I certinaly wouldnt consider the current Labour Government or the British populace models of forward thinking road building. What we have under construction is embarassing because we need so much of it, what they have under construction is embarassing because theres so little of it.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Hmm... There's 60 km of single carriageway from Fishguard to the first bit of dual carriageway, and then it's another 30/40 km to the M4.

The British don't think the traffic numbers on the whole Rosslare-Wales route are up to dual carriageway.

We are a small trading partner for the UK. They are a large trading partner for us. We are approaching it from two different perspectives! Remember that the A55 in North Wales was only recently completed (in fact it still has a small S2 section!) to dual carriageway standard. For many years succsssive British governments had no intention of upgrading the route to Holyhead either and even today the A5 (main route from Holyhead to London) remains S2 throughout Wales. British thresholds for triggering upgrades of S2 routes to D2 are much higher than ours. Too high IMHO.

L1011

The S2 section of the A55 is a case where they've decided that building a second bridge is too expensive... hence why even on an S2 bypass of New Ross a 2+2 bridge would be essential for future upgrades.

Lennoxschips

huh? they are two completely different roads on completely different routes that serve completely different purposes.

JupiterKid

This "announcement" smacks of nothing more than policitcking and propping up the loal FF TDs (who are probably getting it in the neck from locals for the gross mismanagement of the economy, but that's another story...). I'll believe it when I see the construction plant on site.

There is no way New Ross merits a €1 billion bypass. Build a D2 bridge, link back to the N25 road, and build the more elaborate lengths of the D2 bypass later on, as traffic growth warrants. Right now, only a new bridge is really needed.

L1011

Lennoxschips wrote: »

huh? they are two completely different roads on completely different routes that serve completely different purposes.

Comparison is entirely valid - 30 years ago they'd never have though they'd need a dual carriage way to Holyhead (most traffic went by rail); now they're stuck with a multi-million quid bill if they want to fix the gap in the A55.

On the N25 its not going to be overly more expensive to build a 2+2 bridge than a WS2 bridge. However, stringing a second bridge across in 30 years time would be extremely expensive.

groveman60

When the New Ross bypass bridge is built and opened, someone is sure to have some complaint about it. The look of it, or whatever.
Wouldn't it be typical for them to find that the bridge was a few feet too low for big boats coming up to the port!. 'The tide levels have changed in recent times', might well be the response. 'We can always lower the river-bed under the bridge, anyway'.

invincibleirish

MYOB wrote: »

On the N25 its not going to be overly more expensive to build a 2+2 bridge than a WS2 bridge. However, stringing a second bridge across in 30 years time would be extremely expensive.

Thats if it is needed in 30 years time. Anything to show that Rosslare Europort is going to be a lot busier in 30 years time then it has been for the last 30 years?

murphaph

invincibleirish wrote: »

Thats if it is needed in 30 years time. Anything to show that Rosslare Europort is going to be a lot busier in 30 years time then it has been for the last 30 years?

Bypassing New Ross might make it busier. Seriously, if the links to Rosslare Europort were up to scratch it would I believe, be busier. Rosslare-Fishguard/Pembroke-London-Calais is much more direct for much of southern Ireland than the route via North Wales! We also (as previously stated) have a diluted port setup so each little seaside town has its own port (sound familiar?) taking business from one another. The island really needs just Larne/Belfast/Dublin/Rosslare for excellent connectivity to Britain and onwards to the continent.

invincibleirish

murphaph wrote: »

Bypassing New Ross might make it busier. Seriously, if the links to Rosslare Europort were up to scratch it would I believe, be busier. Rosslare-Fishguard/Pembroke-London-Calais is much more direct for much of southern Ireland than the route via North Wales! We also (as previously stated) have a diluted port setup so each little seaside town has its own port (sound familiar?) taking business from one another. The island really needs just Larne/Belfast/Dublin/Rosslare for excellent connectivity to Britain and onwards to the continent.

It might, but going in tandem with suggestions above of improving links to Rosslare, thats new build DC for the N25, N24 & N11 to somehow stimulate trade. i'm all for strategic investment but as i say thats an awful lot of expensive road to build to serve a second tier port, even more so when resources are limited?.

Is this Bypass actually going ahead in 2009? i've gone OT but has the money actually been confirmed?

Chris_533976

No chance

It wont be in 09 unless the Gov changes tack. But AFAIK this has been bumped almost to the top of the priority list (maybe even just behind Newlands and possibly ahead of the N11 gap, which is stupid).

Rumours a few months ago said they're gonna set the Waterford bridge crowd to New Ross once they're done, but who knows now whats going to really happen.

Lennoxschips

However, stringing a second bridge across in 30 years time would be extremely expensive.

Not really, if you plan ahead it could work out cheaper.

You build a modular prefab bridge and leave room for another one next to it in 30 years time if needed.

Bypassing New Ross might make it busier. Seriously, if the links to Rosslare Europort were up to scratch it would I believe, be busier. Rosslare-Fishguard/Pembroke-London-Calais is much more direct for much of southern Ireland than the route via North Wales!

I've done Amsterdam to Cork on both routes and neither time did New Ross even cross my mind when calculating the 20 hour drive.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Not really, if you plan ahead it could work out cheaper.

You build a modular prefab bridge and leave room for another one next to it in 30 years time if needed.

I find it hard to believe it could possibly, under any realistic circumstances, be cheaper to erect heavy lifting cranes to build one bridge, take them all down, wait a period of years, re-erect them and build the the second parallel bridge instead of building a 2+2 bridge to begin with.

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I've done Amsterdam to Cork on both routes and neither time did New Ross even cross my mind when calculating the 20 hour drive.

Well, New Ross is just part of the route to Rosslare. It happens it's the most expensive bit so it's made 4 pages already. I would (as I said already) like to see the N24->N25 at least 2+2 throughout their lengths.

Travelling home once in a while from the continent I wouldn't really consider New Ross either, but hauling goods to market everyday is a different matter.

Lennoxschips

murphaph wrote: »

I find it hard to believe it could possibly, under any realistic circumstances, be cheaper to erect heavy lifting cranes to build one bridge, take them all down, wait a period of years, re-erect them and build the the second parallel bridge instead of building a 2+2 bridge to begin with.

Factor in 30 years of maintenance costs on a bridge that's twice as big as it needs to be and you might be surprised.

Travelling home once in a while from the continent I wouldn't really consider New Ross either, but hauling goods to market everyday is a different matter.

Hauling goods is done at 80 km/hr.

corktina

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Hauling goods is done at 80 km/hr.

haha..you try catching them guys on the M4:D I regularly do that run and I'm still passing irish Trucks at junction12 Reading...:)

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

No chance

It wont be in 09 unless the Gov changes tack. But AFAIK this has been bumped almost to the top of the priority list (maybe even just behind Newlands and possibly ahead of the N11 gap, which is stupid).

Rumours a few months ago said they're gonna set the Waterford bridge crowd to New Ross once they're done, but who knows now whats going to really happen.

Sorry, but this project shouldn't even get to look at the priority list until Newlands Cross, the SRRs, the M11, M18, M20, Adare Bypass, Claregalway Bypass and other more important projects are finished.

This project will suck limited resources from other more needing road schemes.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Factor in 30 years of maintenance costs on a bridge that's twice as big as it needs to be and you might be surprised.

For a start, the deck of the bridge would not need to be anywhere near twice as big to carry twice as many lanes! An S2 bridge is a lot wider than just the two lanes. In any case, I'd be interested to see any figures for bridge maintenance costs versus bridge size for cable stayed (I presume box girder) bridges because I don't believe the additional costs in maintaining a slighty (not twice as big!) larger bridge would outstrip the costs of erecting a second bridge 30 years later. You're also assuming you can accurately predict when a second bridge will be needed-it may be needed in 10 years. I just don't believe any large river crossing should be built as an S2 in this day and age. When they built the Foyle Bridge (currently longest in Ireland) they opted for D2 even though the roads either side were S2. I think thye made the right choice.