1 Israeli = 155 Palestinians

munchester29

taconnol wrote: »

Will this suffice?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/21/israel

It is from Hamas spokesperson. I suppose it's the closest they've come.

Your article actually confirms what I said:

A nice little sentence where the first part has nothing to do with the second, yet when put together the whole sounds so much better…

“Hamas said today it would accept a Palestinian state on land occupied in the 1967 war, but it would not explicitly recognise Israel.”

And apparently even Jimmy Carter said:

“He acknowledged that Hamas still refused to recognise explicitly Israel's right to exist, or to renounce violence, or to recognise previous peace agreements”

munchester29

Offy wrote: »

Thats very true but its through discussion that we gain understanding. I just think its better to sit down and talk things out rather than pick up a gun and kill people. I dont understand munchester29 views so Im trying to learn about them from him. munchester29 ofcourse does not have to answer but would that not indicate a lack of willingness to debate? Kinda like the Israelis do, your know the kill everyone we dont like way of living, like what the Nazis did to the Jews. The Nazis didnt talk much either did they? How can Israel sit down at a negotiation table if their not willing to talk?

I didn’t answer your question because I already did that a few times on this thread and others, kind of gets tiresome eventually.
I started reading your comment and thought about explaining again, but then I got to the Nazi analogy and lost all motivation.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Have you any figures for the amount of civillians killed during Cast Lead by WP ?

So you accept there were civlians killed by WP?

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

“Isrealsaid today it would accept a Palestinian state on land occupied in the 1967 war, but it would not explicitly recognise Hamas .”



“He acknowledged that Israel still refused to recognise explicitly Hamas 's right to exist, or to renounce violence, or to recognise previous peace agreements”

Fixed. We can play this game all night

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And who did the Palestinians kick out to take that land? It could keep going on and on with the recursive circle of who did what to whom.

No one actually. There descended form the various people who lived there. All those invaders you listed, the Palestinians are descended from those people.

So no need for circles.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The zionists were given an area by the UN and when the arabs invaded Israel they lost. really the arabs shouldn't have lost if you look at the numbers on the arab side and those on the jewish side. Also the zionists had inferior armaments as well but determination and better tactics saw them through.

The Arabs lost, as there forces were inferior. They had the inferior arms.

Also, what right did the UN have to give away something that wasn't theres? Of course, the funny thing is that Israel could care less about what the UN says.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

and the fact is that they're there now and both sides have to work on a peaceful solution to the problem.

Sure, they do. Still doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians have a valid reason to be pissed at Israel. There is a reason for the conflict and understanding that will help solve it.

Offy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Sigh, thats just unconstructive abuse. I'll just go ahead and call the palestinians murderous barbarians too, their actions have show that to be the case. Neither statement adds to the debate but hey if you can say it so can I.

Thats the way it is. Israel are warmongers. I didnt mention Palestine, again you try to divert. Israel killed how many civilians in Lebanon? Yada Yada Yada.
You can come into an Irish forum and try to spread you rationalization all you want but as you can see from this thread alone that tatic will not work for you.
I do condem Hamas by the way for their attacks on civilians but Israel are 1000 times worse. Israel are the scum of humanity at the moment and will remain at that slimmy level as long as Israel wage war on civilians. Hamas rocket attacks do not excuse the use of WP on civilians and you will not twist that fact no matter how hard you try. Between you and one or two others you have unsucessfully tried to misinform, decieve and lie about Israels war on Palistine but you cant cover up something like that just like Hitler couldnt cover up the concentration camps.
Now Im bored of talking to Israelis/Jews/House Clearers/Isreali Tank Names because you offer no real argument or debate so goodbye, your not worth talking to.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Imperialism has changed since the old days. Don't need a King or Queen anymore.

Its become more of a media or propoganda attack word now though and rather lost its power and focus since Gandhi's day imo.

You're a good person to debate with wes, I would rarely agree with you but at least its interesting.

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So you accept there were civlians killed by WP?

as I tought straight past the question and on to the diversion

munchester29

paulaa wrote: »

As you say, talk is cheap in the Middle East but so is life, on all sides.

It's a strange fact but if you look back over the last several elections, Israel always seems to involve herself in an attack on someone, in the weeks before hand. This has been going on for years and it seems that those who are the most hardline and warmongering are the ones that get voted in.

Can’t really say I remember anything out of the ordinary (like the recent operation) before the last several elections, wouldn’t mind some reading material.

paulaa wrote: »

They send their troops into yet another futile, unnecessary "war" in order to grab power. Their policies constantly put their troops in danger, yes I know that's what soldiers do, but imo a lot of it is unnecessary and contrived.

Israel has stated the goals of their war from the start – an end to the rocket threat over Israeli civilians.
I don’t think that protecting over 700,000 people from the risk of thousands of rockets is futile or that protecting these people from living their lives in between shelter runs is unnecessary.
I think the Israeli government is doing the best they can under the circumstances to protect the Israeli people from attacks. Any government would have done the same; most governments would have done much worse (some already have).

paulaa wrote: »

Can I ask Israel's supporters if they believe Israel is really serious about wanting peace ?

Forget the rhetoric about protecting citizens, stopping smuggling etc.

Does Israel really want peace with the Palestinians ?

Yes. I believe that Israel is really serious.
The way I see it, there has been violence perpetrated on both sides since Israel was created in 1948, and even before that. Which of the sides has actually ever done anything to achieve peace, in amidst all this mutual violence?

Israel has agreed to a two state solution.
Israel has left Gaza, uprooting Israeli settlements and thousands of families in the process.
Israel has stopped building new settlements (talked about expansion much earlier in the thread)

I know the Palestinians should get much more, but Israel has at least made some of the steps necessary to make in the right direction. The result, unfortunately, was increased attacks.

What have the Palestinians ever done to achieve peace? Reduced rocket attacks during a ceasefire to “almost nothing”?

BlaasForRafa

Offy wrote: »

Thats the way it is. Israel are warmongers. I didnt mention Palestine, again you try to divert. Israel killed how many civilians in Lebanon? Yada Yada Yada.
You can come into an Irish forum and try to spread you rationalization all you want but as you can see from this thread alone that tatic will not work for you.
I do condem Hamas by the way for their attacks on civilians but Israel are 1000 times worse. Israel are the scum of humanity at the moment and will remain at that slimmy level as long as Israel wage war on civilians. Hamas rocket attacks do not excuse the use of WP on civilians and you will not twist that fact no matter how hard you try. Between you and one or two others you have unsucessfully tried to misinform, decieve and lie about Israels war on Palistine but you cant cover up something like that just like Hitler couldnt cover up the concentration camps.
Now Im bored of talking to Israelis/Jews/House Clearers/Isreali Tank Names because you offer no real argument or debate so goodbye, your not worth talking to.

Thats just a rant. All I see there is "blah blah blah I hate Israel blah blah blah"

concussion

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Not great, but then again, even the British Empire which killed millions had rules and avoided targetting children.

Repeated bombing of German cities during the Second World War?

IRISH RAIL

Offy wrote: »

Thats the way it is. Israel are warmongers. I didnt mention Palestine, again you try to divert. Israel killed how many civilians in Lebanon? Yada Yada Yada.
You can come into an Irish forum and try to spread you rationalization all you want but as you can see from this thread alone that tatic will not work for you.
I do condem Hamas by the way for their attacks on civilians but Israel are 1000 times worse. Israel are the scum of humanity at the moment and will remain at that slimmy level as long as Israel wage war on civilians. Hamas rocket attacks do not excuse the use of WP on civilians and you will not twist that fact no matter how hard you try. Between you and one or two others you have unsucessfully tried to misinform, decieve and lie about Israels war on Palistine but you cant cover up something like that just like Hitler couldnt cover up the concentration camps.
Now Im bored of talking to Israelis/Jews/House Clearers/Isreali Tank Names because you offer no real argument or debate so goodbye, your not worth talking to.

what has an Irish forum got to do with it?

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

as I tought straight past the question and on to the diversion

No diversion at all.

Its just that the IDF denied using it, and I'm wondering if that lie has been exposed, what else they lied about?

BlaasForRafa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Not great, but then again, even the British Empire which killed millions had rules and avoided targetting children.

Are you serious? Look up what happened at Amritsar.

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

Its never applied the Geneva convention and by settling them has breached international law.

Several matters of international laws are involved, not just the settlement issue. And I've said it before - I don't really see a solution where Israel doesn't give up on its west bank settlements, but they do have claim to some areas which are considered settlements by the Palestinians. These claims will be settled in due time and process.

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

The Arabs lost, as there forces were inferior. They had the inferior arms.

QUOTE]

You know thats not true the Arabs had far superior arms the Israelis had to make there own ammo in underground workshops as the british took almost all there weapons and would not release the stockpile they had taken on them. There numbers were far far superior to Israel.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

You know thats not true the Arabs had far superior arms the Israelis had to make there own ammo in underground workshops as the british took almost all there weapons and would not release the stockpile they had taken on them. There numbers were far far superior to Israel.

History has come full circle then....

Its a pity you Isrealis learnt nothing from your collective experiences and history.

BlaasForRafa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

wes wrote: »

The Arabs lost, as there forces were inferior. They had the inferior arms.

QUOTE]

You know thats not true the Arabs had far superior arms the Israelis had to make there own ammo in underground workshops as the british took almost all there weapons and would not release the stockpile they had taken on them. There numbers were far far superior to Israel.

Indeed, the egyptians and jordanian ground forces were pretty well equipped by the british and the egyptians had superior spitfires to the israelis czech-engined me109s.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

[
You know thats not true the Arabs had far superior arms the Israelis had to make there own ammo in underground workshops as the british took almost all there weapons and would not release the stockpile they had taken on them. There numbers were far far superior to Israel.

I think the fact they lost shows that there forces were not superior. Read Illan Pappes book on the subject, the Arab armies were a joke. There commanders were British, who stayed out of the war, which left them with no leadership, the arms embargo, meant they also had no access to proper weapons either. The Arabs, were clearly not some great force, as evidenced by there loss.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

I think the fact they lost shows that there forces were not superior. Read Illan Pappes book on the subject, the Arab armies were a joke. There commanders were British, who stayed out of the war, which left them with no leadership, the arms embargo, meant they also had no access to proper weapons either. The Arabs, were clearly not some great force, as evidenced by there loss.

Yea, the Nazis lost too... Clearly not some great force...

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Indeed, the egyptians and jordanian ground forces were pretty well equipped by the british and the egyptians had superior spitfires to the israelis czech-engined me109s.

There forces were inferior. They lost there commanders, whom were British. The Arab forces were a mess. The lost for reason and it was due to there force being inferior and having lost there leadership.

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Yea, the Nazis lost too... Clearly not some great force...

It took the US, Russia and the UK to beat the Nazi's. They were a massive force, who were beaten by a superior combined force.

Macha

munchester29 wrote: »

Your article actually confirms what I said:

A nice little sentence where the first part has nothing to do with the second, yet when put together the whole sounds so much better…

“Hamas said today it would accept a Palestinian state on land occupied in the 1967 war, but it would not explicitly recognise Israel.”

And apparently even Jimmy Carter said:

“He acknowledged that Hamas still refused to recognise explicitly Israel's right to exist, or to renounce violence, or to recognise previous peace agreements”

Yes you're right, I accepted this in an earlier post directed at BlaasForRafa. I'm guilty of finding an article title that suited my argument and running with it

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Several matters of international laws are involved, not just the settlement issue. And I've said it before - I don't really see a solution where Israel doesn't give up on its west bank settlements, but they do have claim to some areas which are considered settlements by the Palestinians. These claims will be settled in due time and process.

The colonies are illegal under international law. Israels claims don't matter, as there still illegal under international law and there land theft are an obstacle to peace.

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

Yea, the Nazis lost too... Clearly not some great force...

They only lost because Hitler overruled his Generals and went steaming into Russia...

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

I think the fact they lost shows that there forces were not superior. Read Illan Pappes book on the subject, the Arab armies were a joke. There commanders were British, who stayed out of the war, which left them with no leadership, the arms embargo, meant they also had no access to proper weapons either. The Arabs, were clearly not some great force, as evidenced by there loss.

That just isn't the case. Maybe your trying to perpetuate some myth that Israel has always had superior armaments when a look at the facts shows that isn't the case. Until the mid-70's Israel has always had to scrabble around for arms from here and there. In the northern front in 1973 the 7th armoured brigade (all that was left between T-62 armed syrian divisions and the northern galillee) was just over a 100 upgunned ww2 era Sherman tanks and ex-british centurion tanks.

What they had going for them was a greater determination, better training and better tactics which saw them through until the reserve brigades had time to form.

IRISH RAIL

wes wrote: »

I think the fact they lost shows that there forces were not superior. Read Illan Pappes book on the subject, the Arab armies were a joke. There commanders were British, who stayed out of the war, which left them with no leadership, the arms embargo, meant they also had no access to proper weapons either. The Arabs, were clearly not some great force, as evidenced by there loss.

Maybe read real history books and newspapers accounts from the time
although as a quip I would agree the Arab armies were a joke the facts from the time remain there misgiving was the notion they could march to Tel Aviv unopposed. when they met resistance they got scared
There is even stories of Hagannagh troops igniting flammable materiels to make it sound like they had artelliery. when the Jordanians heard the booms they ran, But my point still stands that there weapons were far superiour to anything the Israelis had.
In the Zahal museam in TA there is a weapons pavillion showing all the guns that were donated from around the world to Israel.
Not all there commanders were English as the English would train them just like Windgate trained the hagannah.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

There forces were inferior. They lost there commanders, whom were British. The Arab forces were a mess. The lost for reason and it was due to there force being inferior and having lost there leadership.

Benny Morris is usually quoted when such claims are made.
If you read what Benny Morris wrote, you will see that everyone thought the Palestinians in Israel were too weak to fight the Jews by themselves. That’s why the rest of the Arab countries joined the party, which made Israel the inferior side in that war:

"Summarizing the military assessments of the British, Jewish Agency and the Arabs, historian Benny Morris writes, "all observers—Jewish, British, Palestinian Arab, and external Arab—agreed on the eve of the war that the Palestinians were incapable of beating the Zionists or of withstanding Zionist assault. The Palestinians were simply too weak."

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No diversion at all.

Its just that the IDF denied using it, and I'm wondering if that lie has been exposed, what else they lied about?

so if its no diversion at all how come you wont answer it ?

munchester29

wes wrote: »

The colonies are illegal under international law. Israels claims don't matter, as there still illegal under international law and there land theft are an obstacle to peace.

I've already explained the reality in that regard before in this thread.
Such generalization is good for propaganda – nice and catchy, but in real life there are many factors, many considerations, many international laws which can be interpreted in many ways by many people and many other fine subtleties which help make life on earth the fine mess it is today.